A17 Thoughts: The Level 20 Gate.

[Windhund]

Overall, A17 is a huge improvement. AI, interface, difficulty, looks, vehicles etc... all great. Caveat, I've only played up to Day 10 in A17 in Warrior mode, but here's my thoughts so far.

 

A17 has one glaring exception, and we all know what that is. It's so big it'll be its own post.

 

⛔The Level 20 Skill Gate

 

I hate it. I hate it because it brings fundamental joys of the game to a screeching halt. Looting, crafting, building, and even exploring all become tiresome when you know you can't use it until after hours of mandatory grinding zombies or you can't carry it home. I hit this about level 3 on the first or second day. The next few hours of the game becomes a slog of doing the same thing over and over. Harvesting with the same ineffectual stone axe. Jogging along overburdened with no vehicle. I didn't get past it until Day 9.

 

❓What Its For

 

The gate has a purpose. It slowed my progression and forced me to look into other options and other skills. This is noble. For example, I usually ignore the trader early game. I never seem to have enough money for good stuff, and there's so much basic stuff to loot rather than buy. The level gate forces me to interact with the new quest system, something I probably wouldn't have otherwise.

 

The problem is there isn't enough other stuff to do. Trader quests. Explore POIs looking for weapons and tools (while mournfully collecting items you can't use yet). What else? It's a survival crafting game that won't let you craft!

 

The level gate feels like a ham fisted way to slow and control how the player progresses. I don't want that. I want to progress as I like and as the situation demands. And I don't want to have to grind zombies to do it. But the desire is good. In A16 I too often ignore most of the game and plow straight for a forge.

 

💡Add more non-crafting stuff to do.

 

This would be very welcome, but I doubt it can be added to A17.

 

💡Expand the initial quest chain.

 

The first 8 quests guide you through the very, very basics of the game. A lot of games do this to keep you in a tutorial area and limit what you can do while you're still learning basic skills. And then you're on your own!

 

But now you're not. The tutorial quests are done but the level gate still holds you from a fundamental progression: the forge. What is the game teaching me by forcing me to grind zombies for 15 levels? If this were a bit more explicit with the game offering more explicit teaching goals it might not be so bad.

 

While expanded tutorial quests might help new players, this is not my preferred option to control progression. You're only a newbie once. After that the tutorial quests become at best a ritual, at worst a grind. And I don't see this happening in A17.

 

💡Lower the level gate.

 

The simplest fix. Bring it down to level 5 or 10? Something to make the player pause and consider other options, but not so high that they're grinding zombies for the next 7 days.

 

💡Put the forge before the gate.

 

Getting a forge is a major feat bringing you out of the stone age. It opens up a variety of crafting options, diversifies what they can do, broadens the number of items they can work with, and eases the player into crafting. If the forge were before the gate, it wouldn't be so frustrating.

 

💡Rely on skills and attribute requirements.

 

Making requirements solely based on other skills slows and directs the player's progression while still giving them agency in how they progress. This system already exists, it might need to be tweaked a bit to get the desired effect.

 

With the changes to stamina, encumbrance, and the harsher environment, I'm finding I need to spread my skill points out more early game than in A16. While I might want to race for a forge, then maybe I can't cross a desert with a pack full of loot.

 

💡Smooth out the crafting progression.

 

The forge skill is a major feat. At a stroke all your tools, armor, weapons, and building materials are improved and more varied. If this were spread out a bit more, progression would feel more smooth, and new players wouldn't be immediately overwhelmed with so many options.

 

That's my thoughts after an admittedly short, solo run. It was a particularly brutal game. Solo, surrounded by wasteland and desert, learning all the new mechanics and enemies. What do you all think?

[Roland]

Level gates are getting cut for the next update.

[Punchdrunk]

Level gates are getting cut for the next update.

 

All of them? Awesome. I'd modded them out anyway tbh...

[AtomicUs5000]

Wow. I almost feel bad. Such a lengthy, well-thought, organized post... so quickly shut down. I almost wish the gates would stay for a few more builds just because of this effort.

[Katitof]

It makes looting EXTREMELY REWARDING, because now actually FINDING good item feels good.

Previously it was 100% irrelevant, because you could always have 600 quality items on first week.

Preventing players from crafting that makes questing and looting feel much better then it ever did and purple item locked behind late game perks now feels epic.

[NinjaMoa]

It makes looting EXTREMELY REWARDING, because now actually FINDING good item feels good.

Previously it was 100% irrelevant, because you could always have 600 quality items on first week.

Preventing players from crafting that makes questing and looting feel much better then it ever did and purple item locked behind late game perks now feels epic.

 

But now the higher level tools only allow for more mods, the level of the tool doesn't define the amount of damage to block/zombie. That is defined by the skills that you have unlocked.

So the removal of level gates will mean sure you can get high level tools and weapons, but they will be just as useless unless you have the perks to effectively use them.

[unclevlad]

Level gates are getting cut for the next update.

 

Clarifying question: Are they being reduced or eliminated or some combination thereof?

[Mephistopheles]

And you won't be able to repair those level 1 steel tools you find that only last for 14 hits...until you're level 60 and put 3 pts into the forging perk.

[LuckyStar]

And you won't be able to repair those level 1 steel tools you find that only last for 14 hits...until you're level 60 and put 3 pts into the forging perk.

 

Ugh let's hope not.

 

There's going to be a lot of swinging the pendulum before A17 stable comes out and I fear, even though I know you're being sarcastic, that there may be some truth to what you're saying.

 

I have faith in TFP that in time they'll find the happy medium.

Till then I suspect we're going to be doing a lot of ....

 

[Roland]

Clarifying question: Are they being reduced or eliminated or some combination thereof?

 

Eliminated for attributes. Some perks may be gated as balancing continues.

[Sanepidi]

It makes looting EXTREMELY REWARDING, because now actually FINDING good item feels good.

Previously it was 100% irrelevant, because you could always have 600 quality items on first week.

Preventing players from crafting that makes questing and looting feel much better then it ever did and purple item locked behind late game perks now feels epic.

 

You are absolutly right. I was so happy when i found some steel tools to harvest materials. I went to trader to buy steel ingots and could use them till i get them by myself. Looting was worthy and made alot of fun.

 

Now without gates it will be easier to get, but they will make some requiriments for skills to unlock those perks. But it won't be so hard anyway. I am a little disappointed.

[Gipothegip]

Level gates are getting cut for the next update.

 

Do you mean A 18, or the next build / stable of A 17?

[chaosterone]

Do you mean A 18, or the next build / stable of A 17?

 

Read somewhere MM already made some changes, so next A17 experimental.

[Katitof]

But now the higher level tools only allow for more mods, the level of the tool doesn't define the amount of damage to block/zombie. That is defined by the skills that you have unlocked.

So the removal of level gates will mean sure you can get high level tools and weapons, but they will be just as useless unless you have the perks to effectively use them.

 

It is also defined by mods and there is MASSIVE difference between 1 and 5 mods in given item.

Rarity also improves durability, which means less time spent repairing.

Perks are only one variable here.

 

Also, what's wrong with that?

I could give best power tools to someone clueless about using them and he'll be outperformed by a worker with regular tools and experience using them, perks mimic that quite well.

 

You're also completely ignoring the fact that there is more behind these level gates then just color of quality bar on the item and THAT is supposed to be limited.

[WolfyBlah]

Level gates are getting cut for the next update.

 

Factually incorrect unless somthig further has changed. Escalting attribute costs ( and requiring the attributes to buy perks) is STILL the exact same level gates, just represented diffrently.

[beHypE]

Factually incorrect unless somthig further has changed. Escalting attribute costs ( and requiring the attributes to buy perks) is STILL the exact same level gates, just represented diffrently.

 

I'm firmly against level gates and have criticized the new system a lot, actually to the point I fear i'm coming over like a douche that only talks about the same thing over and over again sometimes, but this is just not true. If done correctly - or adjusted correctly with mods -, it will obviously still represent a hidden level gate because you need enough points, but there won't be anything preventing you from specializing into one area and get there way quicker. Obviously there's an indirect level gate but that's just obvious that you can't just spend 1 point on level 2 into whatever you want.

 

Removing static level gates is going to be beneficial in a lot of areas :

- specialization : in every playthrough i've played by now, I realise I scattered points left and right because even if I wanted to specialize, I just couldn't past level 2 of most perks, because level 20 is needed to go further. This will now be entirely possible even though it will be at the cost of keeping your points unused for a lot of levels, and at the cost of being absolutely terrible at all the rest. But the choice is there.

- variety : being able to freely choose what I wanna max at the expense of the rest is going to let me play a large amount of different ways. Go all havoc and max Strength right away, or take the more classic "Intellect" approach, play a sharpshooter with bows, or decide I want to be decent at a lot of things instead of being great at one. Early/mid game is going to feel drastically different depending on choices.

- last but not least, it will avoid having static and sudden changes of pace. In every game right now, you're basically in stone age until you're level 20, and all of a sudden, bam, you can craft Forges, Bicycles and other stuff. It's always at this pace, it's mapped out, you expect it and you just have to play through it.

 

The one thing I still think should happen is removing most crafting recipes from the Intelligence skill tree. It might make the tree smaller than the others, but without level gates Intelligence will be the obvious meta and probably far better than everything else. Sure, you may roleplay and play a dumb soldier/archer, but as a whole, maxxing Intelligence will be the go-to choice. (and also bring back books, but i've said that enough )

[LordoftheMoo]

Factually incorrect unless somthig further has changed. Escalting attribute costs ( and requiring the attributes to buy perks) is STILL the exact same level gates, just represented diffrently.

 

Represented more how a16 was. You couldn't get steel until level 40, due to needing a certain level in other skills. You couldn't get the chem station until level 60, due to the same. This is to an extent a partial reversion to how it was in a16, where perks are gated by skill levels. In fact I would say this is more generous than a16, as a16 the skills WERE level gated, and in the next exp. they won't be.

[WolfyBlah]

Represented more how a16 was. You couldn't get steel until level 40, due to needing a certain level in other skills. You couldn't get the chem station until level 60, due to the same. This is to an extent a partial reversion to how it was in a16, where perks are gated by skill levels. In fact I would say this is more generous than a16, as a16 the skills WERE level gated, and in the next exp. they won't be.

 

Oh im fully aware of the implications and how it would work but they are still level gated, regardless of it being less obvious the gate still exsists. If i need 5 int to get the forge perk, i need level 10-15 because of the cost instead of 20 because of arbitrary reasons. Yeah its better but its still gated. (not a fan of attributes, they really added nothing to the game other than making it feel like a lazy fallout ripoff)

[WolfyBlah]

I'm firmly against level gates and have criticized the new system a lot, actually to the point I fear i'm coming over like a douche that only talks about the same thing over and over again sometimes, but this is just not true. If done correctly - or adjusted correctly with mods -, it will obviously still represent a hidden level gate because you need enough points, but there won't be anything preventing you from specializing into one area and get there way quicker. Obviously there's an indirect level gate but that's just obvious that you can't just spend 1 point on level 2 into whatever you want.

 

Removing static level gates is going to be beneficial in a lot of areas :

- specialization : in every playthrough i've played by now, I realise I scattered points left and right because even if I wanted to specialize, I just couldn't past level 2 of most perks, because level 20 is needed to go further. This will now be entirely possible even though it will be at the cost of keeping your points unused for a lot of levels, and at the cost of being absolutely terrible at all the rest. But the choice is there.

- variety : being able to freely choose what I wanna max at the expense of the rest is going to let me play a large amount of different ways. Go all havoc and max Strength right away, or take the more classic "Intellect" approach, play a sharpshooter with bows, or decide I want to be decent at a lot of things instead of being great at one. Early/mid game is going to feel drastically different depending on choices.

- last but not least, it will avoid having static and sudden changes of pace. In every game right now, you're basically in stone age until you're level 20, and all of a sudden, bam, you can craft Forges, Bicycles and other stuff. It's always at this pace, it's mapped out, you expect it and you just have to play through it.

 

The one thing I still think should happen is removing most crafting recipes from the Intelligence skill tree. It might make the tree smaller than the others, but without level gates Intelligence will be the obvious meta and probably far better than everything else. Sure, you may roleplay and play a dumb soldier/archer, but as a whole, maxxing Intelligence will be the go-to choice. (and also bring back books, but i've said that enough )

 

Beyond this the game needs to be balanced for a single player, if everyone always maxes out INT because its the only way to craft items... wheres the choice?

 

Specialisations are all well and good (honestly not a fan, they do way more to remove replayabilty from the game than add to it for me, dont like grinding XP/levels and thats not going to change) but if they make the game less fun for a single player then thats no good.

[Severalboxes]

Removing the gates would make the magazines relevant

[beHypE]

Beyond this the game needs to be balanced for a single player, if everyone always maxes out INT because its the only way to craft items... wheres the choice?

 

Specialisations are all well and good (honestly not a fan, they do way more to remove replayabilty from the game than add to it for me, dont like grinding XP/levels and thats not going to change) but if they make the game less fun for a single player then thats no good.

 

Yep I agree. I'm pretty sure crafting/recipe perks should be obtained in a different way, like books, quests, and even things like science stations you could find in the world by scavenging. It would have the added benefit of incentivizing looting.

Making them obtainable by global experience just like the rest of the skills is bad design, because they focus on totally different aspects of the game. All the other perks solely develop your character's physique and body, and while powerful they are pretty much optional and only add "bonuses". Intelligence needs to be treated differently because its perks aren't just multiplieres stacking on top of each other, but are truly perks in the strict sense of the word, where you either unlock it fully or you don't.

 

Knowledge will always be more important than doing X% more damage or having X% less stamina drain, and as such will be the go-to branch for most playthroughs unless the player decides that he wants to have an unorthodox gamestyle this time around.

[SylenThunder]

Beyond this the game needs to be balanced for a single player, if everyone always maxes out INT because its the only way to craft items... wheres the choice?

 

Specialisations are all well and good (honestly not a fan, they do way more to remove replayabilty from the game than add to it for me, dont like grinding XP/levels and thats not going to change) but if they make the game less fun for a single player then thats no good.

On a similar note, you can max out all the perks well before hitting the max level, so where's the choice? There isn't one other than what to level up first. In the end, you will still be the supreme master of all.

 

IMHO, the biggest issue is people not wanting to be tied behind slower progression because the earlier versions have allowed you to be god-like by level 100. TFP is taking that away to extend the gameplay and balance things out more.

Which makes perfect sense.

[WolfyBlah]

On a similar note, you can max out all the perks well before hitting the max level, so where's the choice? There isn't one other than what to level up first. In the end, you will still be the supreme master of all.

 

IMHO, the biggest issue is people not wanting to be tied behind slower progression because the earlier versions have allowed you to be god-like by level 100. TFP is taking that away to extend the gameplay and balance things out more.

Which makes perfect sense.

 

Going to have to disagree wih you on that last part, that might be the reason for some people but it sure as hell aint mine. The reason I dont want to be tied behind a slow progression system is its just not fun, i dont enjoy forced RPG elements in what was the best building sandbox out there (well maybe not best, SI is a great feature but we lack a lot of logic/moving parts like rotors/pistons in space engineers ect)

[R0bb0b]

On a similar note, you can max out all the perks well before hitting the max level, so where's the choice? There isn't one other than what to level up first. In the end, you will still be the supreme master of all.

 

IMHO, the biggest issue is people not wanting to be tied behind slower progression because the earlier versions have allowed you to be god-like by level 100. TFP is taking that away to extend the gameplay and balance things out more.

Which makes perfect sense.

 

Going to have to disagree wih you on that last part, that might be the reason for some people but it sure as hell aint mine. The reason I dont want to be tied behind a slow progression system is its just not fun, i dont enjoy forced RPG elements in what was the best building sandbox out there (well maybe not best, SI is a great feature but we lack a lot of logic/moving parts like rotors/pistons in space engineers ect)

 

I will second that and add to it the fact that gating a path behind a level prevents player specialization.

[Tin]

On a similar note, you can max out all the perks well before hitting the max level, so where's the choice? There isn't one other than what to level up first. In the end, you will still be the supreme master of all.

 

IMHO, the biggest issue is people not wanting to be tied behind slower progression because the earlier versions have allowed you to be god-like by level 100. TFP is taking that away to extend the gameplay and balance things out more.

Which makes perfect sense.

 

I didn't really, hate it or like it, but thought it was a bit constricting with how it was implemented initially. My issue with it was, the gating of the system twice. Once through levels, then again through the attribute requirements. Pick one and go with it. Either one of the gates could be adjusted to extend the progression pace on their own.