A17 Thoughts: The Level 20 Gate.

[HungryZombie]

But now the higher level tools only allow for more mods, the level of the tool doesn't define the amount of damage to block/zombie. That is defined by the skills that you have unlocked.

So the removal of level gates will mean sure you can get high level tools and weapons, but they will be just as useless unless you have the perks to effectively use them.

 

If this is true then why were people so against the level gate?

[WolfyBlah]

If this is true then why were people so against the level gate?

 

Because the two are completely unrelated issues? Level gating stops you from being able to craft XYZ item, item quality being simplified (honestly its irrelevent beyond durabilty as i will be removing the weapon mods from my game, most of them are lame with a few of them being outright retarded (dyes giving increased damage? Seriously?) Even the ones that make some degree of sense (adding nails to a club) should just be crafting recipes. Nails + club = club with nails instead of 'nah you cant craft your own nailed club unless you loot this specific 'mod' even if you have a million nails and 50 clubs in your inventory'.

[Whorhay]

Removing the gates would make the magazines relevant

 

Too late, the magazines were made irrelevant by their very mechanics. The only ones worth even considering using are a couple Int related magazines where you only need the skill for a few minutes while you slap together a vehicle or craft tools. And even in that one niche way all they do is save you a single skill point that you're probably going to have to buy anyways. Many people outright scrap them for the paper and most of the rest keep them to sell to the trader. So how exactly does removing the arbitrary level gates make the magazines any less relevant than they already are.

[Severalboxes]

Too late, the magazines were made irrelevant by their very mechanics. The only ones worth even considering using are a couple Int related magazines where you only need the skill for a few minutes while you slap together a vehicle or craft tools. And even in that one niche way all they do is save you a single skill point that you're probably going to have to buy anyways. Many people outright scrap them for the paper and most of the rest keep them to sell to the trader. So how exactly does removing the arbitrary level gates make the magazines any less relevant than they already are.

 

Relevant since the benefit isn't locked behind a level gate. Being useful will still require some balancing.

[suicidalhamster]

On a similar note, you can max out all the perks well before hitting the max level, so where's the choice? There isn't one other than what to level up first. In the end, you will still be the supreme master of all.

 

IMHO, the biggest issue is people not wanting to be tied behind slower progression because the earlier versions have allowed you to be god-like by level 100. TFP is taking that away to extend the gameplay and balance things out more.

Which makes perfect sense.

 

couple of things...

 

first, if TFP want to do specialization then they first need to define what is the "core" abilities. these are what everyone can have access to and would be considered a "balanced" or "general" spec. a balanced spec should allow players to be able to play the game and not feel restricted. after that, they could add additional tiers into each of the attributes. if they were to make the current game as is the "core" and available to everyone, they would simply need to add tiers 6 and 7 to each of the Strength, Agility, etc attributes and add enough skill points to be able to fully spec into 1 or 2 attributes. this gives someone who has chosen Strength as their specialty some extra, "special" skills that no one else can get unless you specialize. making the 6th and 7th tiers a bit harder to achieve extends the life of the game and provides the players with something to achieve. the balanced spec should be jack of all trades and master of none.

 

second, my issue with the progression system up to level 20 has been that it feels artificial. its like having weights tied to you and then suddenly at level 20, they are taken off. this feeling has less to do with the fact everything is gated past 20 and more to do with the fact there is not many meaningful things to achieve under level 20. you cant craft efficiently, you cant mine efficiently, you cant do mods or weapons, etc, etc. if rushing means getting to the point where i can start having more options available to me, then i guess i am a rusher. i have found though, that once i reach level 20-30, i wasnt "level-watching" at all. i had enough to do at that point that i was leveling before i ran out of things to do. before level 20, the opposite is true.

[lumpoycustards]

Take the forge as an example and ignore that you can find them throughout the world.

Everyone wants a forge and will get one as soon as practical.

 

Do you let people have it early and discard the whole early game? Most people would say no.

So to have a sense of progress we need to restrict it somehow.

 

We can make the cost high, which forces people to grind resources and discourages spending them until post-forge. Not ideal.

We can make the experience requirement high, which forces people to grind zombies currently. Not perfect but as XP is balanced the "grinding zombies" method will change into "playing the game".

 

To promote player choice, it should also be possible to prioritise the forge at the expense of other things. Note these downsides need to really hurt (ie skip pack mule and stamina perks to get it a few days earlier). I understand this is frustrating but without a strong downside it's not a meaningful decision. I hope this is where they are heading currently.

[Feycat]

I actually like the level 20 gate.

 

It's the later ones that tick me off.

[Aldranon]

Eliminated for attributes. Some perks may be gated as balancing continues.

 

Yup, it only took removing the gates one time to realize that some perks HAVE to be gated by a 100 level gate (or something else extraordinary).

 

A player can become... so strong, its not even a challenge until you're facing a lot of Rad zombies and dire situations from the death trap POI's. Then its very fun!

[Davy Crockett]

Take the forge as an example and ignore that you can find them throughout the world.

Everyone wants a forge and will get one as soon as practical.

 

Do you let people have it early and discard the whole early game? Most people would say no.

So to have a sense of progress we need to restrict it somehow.

They could also add something inbetween stone axe and iron tools, like the scrap iron tools you see in some mods.

[Kage848]

They could also add something inbetween stone axe and iron tools, like the scrap iron tools you see in some mods.

 

Game has needed a bridge between stone tools and iron tools for a while now. Scrap iron tools would be a great fit.

[WolfyBlah]

Take the forge as an example and ignore that you can find them throughout the world.

Everyone wants a forge and will get one as soon as practical.

 

Do you let people have it early and discard the whole early game? Most people would say no.

So to have a sense of progress we need to restrict it somehow.

 

We can make the cost high, which forces people to grind resources and discourages spending them until post-forge. Not ideal.

We can make the experience requirement high, which forces people to grind zombies currently. Not perfect but as XP is balanced the "grinding zombies" method will change into "playing the game".

 

To promote player choice, it should also be possible to prioritise the forge at the expense of other things. Note these downsides need to really hurt (ie skip pack mule and stamina perks to get it a few days earlier). I understand this is frustrating but without a strong downside it's not a meaningful decision. I hope this is where they are heading currently.

 

Going to have disagree with you here, no matter how XP is balanced people will power level to get a forge (be it killing 1000 zombies or digging 1000 blocks) because... well playing the game without a forge is just not fun, the stone tools suck.

 

Going to have to throw in the discussion on scrap iron tools too: please god no. We dont need more tiers of tools, we didnt need steel tools (in fact all they added to the game was more grind).

 

Im still of the opinon that no crafting recipe should be gated beyond the materials/workstation to craft it, why does crafting somthing have to be double or triple gated behind more mechanics? Why do we even have crafting recipes for stuff, if they are gated by XP then by the time you grind past that the material costs are irrelevant anyway...

[Davy Crockett]

Going to have to throw in the discussion on scrap iron tools too: please god no. We dont need more tiers of tools, we didnt need steel tools (in fact all they added to the game was more grind).

I've only been playing since A16; how did steel tools add more grind and why would scrap iron tools do the same?

[WolfyBlah]

I've only been playing since A16; how did steel tools add more grind and why would scrap iron tools do the same?

 

If you add more tiers of tools then the lower tiers get weaker, and thus it takes longer to break blocks/whatever else until you get the top tier tools.

For reference the steel tools at maxed out skills are slower and less effective than the iron tools we used to have.

 

In a15 a maxed out pickaxe could one hit stone voxels and then it was balanced to always take a minimum of two (thanks gazz)

Things like this are for nothing more than slowing the game down and making it a grind.

[Kage848]

If you add more tiers of tools then the lower tiers get weaker, and thus it takes longer to break blocks/whatever else until you get the top tier tools.

For reference the steel tools at maxed out skills are slower and less effective than the iron tools we used to have.

 

In a15 a maxed out pickaxe could one hit stone voxels and then it was balanced to always take a minimum of two (thanks gazz)

Things like this are for nothing more than slowing the game down and making it a grind.

 

Well yea, if all they do is add scrap tools and in turn simply nerf stone tools that would be lame. But if stone tools do 10 damage and iron does 15 damage then why not add scrap tools that do 12 damage? Just using random numbers.

 

Scrap tools would add a lot. They would add progression. And that's a big deal. Instead of just stretching out gameplay that's already there, gating tools by levels, I'd love to see them add new gameplay, new tool sets. Both early game stuff but ones new and fresh and the other is stuff we have had for years and now just have to wait longer to get.

[WolfyBlah]

Well yea, if all they do is add scrap tools and in turn simply nerf stone tools that would be lame. But if stone tools do 10 damage and iron does 15 damage then why not add scrap tools that do 12 damage? Just using random numbers.

 

Scrap tools would add a lot. They would add progression. And that's a big deal. Instead of just stretching out gameplay that's already there, gating tools by levels, I'd love to see them add new gameplay, new tool sets. Both early game stuff but ones new and fresh and the other is stuff we have had for years and now just have to wait longer to get.

 

Going to have to disagree kage, i get what you are saying but just adding yet another catagory of tools isnt adding progression or more content, its a lazy solution that just adds a redudant set of items to the game (we have lost SO much in terms of building blocks, crafting complexity, id say the older crafting systems had much more depth... so we can no longer have complicated crafting but can have an extra set of tools that do the same thing as all the other tools just weaker...)

 

Regardless of how its balanced it really does add nothing to the than a reskined version of the iron tools with less damage.

To be frank im still going to skip over the weaker tools (stone + iron) regardless because they suck and its not fun hitting a block over and over.

[Punchdrunk]

its not fun hitting a block over and over.

 

see above, /end discussion

[Kage848]

Going to have to disagree kage, i get what you are saying but just adding yet another catagory of tools isnt adding progression or more content, its a lazy solution that just adds a redudant set of items to the game (we have lost SO much in terms of building blocks, crafting complexity, id say the older crafting systems had much more depth... so we can no longer have complicated crafting but can have an extra set of tools that do the same thing as all the other tools just weaker...)

 

Regardless of how its balanced it really does add nothing to the than a reskined version of the iron tools with less damage.

To be frank im still going to skip over the weaker tools (stone + iron) regardless because they suck and its not fun hitting a block over and over.

 

Iron tools suck? Well it's time for me to disagree good sir! 😁

 

 

But really going from stone > iron > steel > machines is the very definition of progression. It's how good video games are built. Play any rpg and see. Rusty sword > iron sword > steel sword. All the way up to excautled magic sword of awesome.

 

Crappy wood house > cobblestone base > reinforced cc stronghold.

 

Terrible quality 1 shotty > q 2 with a mod > well the quality thing needs some work but I think you get what I'm saying here.

 

Thats progression and it's why I play videos games.

[Exxodous]

I personally don't see the problem with the gates. The wife and I are on day 6, both over level 20 and have a forge up and running, bikes made, 2000 concrete, 1000 forged iron and horde base almost finished. All important structural supports will be upgraded to reinforced concrete for day 7 horde.

 

She has taken the int perks primarily with 69er and motherlode. I've taken combat related perks with 69er and motherload. We mined over 20k stone and 6k dirt on day 4. She used trader mixer to make concrete and bought what the 3 traders we found had. Mining is almost too easy with 2 levels of 69er, motherload and sexy t.

 

Probably not doable on default settings as we play on 120 min days (only change) but the level 20 gate did not prevent us from progressing. In fact for day 7 we are probably OP. We will see if the base design holds up lol.

[WolfyBlah]

Iron tools suck? Well it's time for me to disagree good sir! 😁

 

 

But really going from stone > iron > steel > machines is the very definition of progression. It's how good video games are built. Play any rpg and see. Rusty sword > iron sword > steel sword. All the way up to excautled magic sword of awesome.

 

Crappy wood house > cobblestone base > reinforced cc stronghold.

 

Terrible quality 1 shotty > q 2 with a mod > well the quality thing needs some work but I think you get what I'm saying here.

 

Thats progression and it's why I play videos games.

 

Are you forgetting that this game is (or at least was) also a sandbox?

 

Just because you draw enjoyment from 'progression' dosent mean everyone does. I get no sense of accomplishment from getting better tools, my only thourgt when i can for example finally make steel tools is 'thank god thst grinds over with, i can get back to having fun and building without watching block HP bars trickle down'

 

Every progression based system slowed the game down by an order of magnitude and we have gone from one of the most fun and replayable games around to a snoozefest of grinding XP and playing with RPG elements.

[Myrrah]

Re: all the posts saying there will always have to be gates of some kind-to me it's that the gates need to have a rational/realistic reason that encourages working at a pertinent thing. Like if i can't make medkits because my science isn't high enough-the solution should be to be able to DO something pertaining to science in order to get my science skills up. Either by crafting things or reading books. That's realistic. It's not realistic to think "oh gosh. i really need to be able to make medkits. i need to kill MORE zombies". the irrationality of it annoys me

 

edit to add a social/philosophical consciousness thought-haha! i was just watching a thing talking about the times that video games have taught people skills that saved lives. When you consider that video games are now a LOT of peoples go to choice for entertainment and it is being proven that they have dramatic impacts on brain function (good ones. surprise surprise. i coulda told them that 15 years ago ) everyone might as well be socially conscious and develop real life applicable ways of thinking such as working at something to become skilled at it. Yes it's a game and we just wanna have fun. got it. Me too. But to me it's not fun for long (particularly in a "survival" game) if it feels like i'm being forced in irrational directions that are counter intuitive

[Davy Crockett]

In a15 a maxed out pickaxe could one hit stone voxels and then it was balanced to always take a minimum of two (thanks gazz)

Now that explains a lot. If there's a hard cap like that, I can see where you're coming from, and it's actually the core of the problem. Seems like they should just let you build an excavator instead.

[Kage848]

Are you forgetting that this game is (or at least was) also a sandbox?

 

Just because you draw enjoyment from 'progression' dosent mean everyone does. I get no sense of accomplishment from getting better tools, my only thourgt when i can for example finally make steel tools is 'thank god thst grinds over with, i can get back to having fun and building without watching block HP bars trickle down'

 

Every progression based system slowed the game down by an order of magnitude and we have gone from one of the most fun and replayable games around to a snoozefest of grinding XP and playing with RPG elements.

 

Fair enough. I get what your saying. Just seems we want different things.

[HungryZombie]

Are you forgetting that this game is (or at least was) also a sandbox?

 

Just because you draw enjoyment from 'progression' dosent mean everyone does. I get no sense of accomplishment from getting better tools, my only thourgt when i can for example finally make steel tools is 'thank god thst grinds over with, i can get back to having fun and building without watching block HP bars trickle down'

 

Every progression based system slowed the game down by an order of magnitude and we have gone from one of the most fun and replayable games around to a snoozefest of grinding XP and playing with RPG elements.

 

From the Steam Store description: 7 Days to Die is an open-world game that is a unique combination of first person shooter, survival horror, tower defense, and role-playing games.

 

So while you may feel you don't like progression and that's your right. That's not the way the game is advertised. All you can do is hope enough people feel as you do instead of not, and hope the game designers change coarse for some reason if it's that much of a drag for you.

[gotitdone]

The only thing that annoys me is the lack of a mining helmet, unless you are lucky enough to find one. Found me a working bench, was able to collect all the necessary items to craft one; only to realize it's gated.... Without it, I spend nights afk. I just pull out my phone till daylight.