Level gating. Why it ok for other games but not 7DTD

[ColdGate]

There are many games with RPG elements such as levels, perks, skills etc. We play them, and never even pay attention that skills and perks have some gates and restriction.

But why there's so much hate and attention to level gating implemented to 7DTD? What differs it from other game? Freedom? Yes, but... its only visible part of iceberg.

 

Story

That games are story driven, quest-chain driven, even if it sandboxes, there are main quest story, and when we read that story, we progress with it, and every new skill/move/tool are required to complete future missions. And we no need grind 50 levels just to create jeep, but we need jeep to "deliver container of medical supplies to settlement". If there was story mode in Navezgane, it should be ok, but there's nothing like story! All stories are creating by ourselves, we are story drivers! So why we are restricted?

 

Enemy progression

In games, more you play, enemies become stronger with each stage, and you need advance your skills all time. If there's no restrictions, you get ultimate skill on level 10 and wipe out everything with only finger move. But what we see in 7DTD? You should meet exactly same zombies you saw when you spawn in all your playthrough! Yes, irradiated, yes cops, but 99% are the same!

 

Zone restriction

Some territories may be accessible only when you have some level/gears/keys. Its not about 7DTD.

 

We have nothing from this list in game, no even single logical explanation why everything restricted, and in my opinion thats why so many negative about them.

[ArcticPrism]

It seems like the most common complaint is that it slows down the game progression. People have been able to rush straight to forge,cement and all other end game items in 1-3 days for years. Compared to that, the game progression is a lot slower. I think as far as EXP goes, things that aren't killing zombies need to give better exp. Unless you're grinding zombies leveling is quite slow.

 

Many things in the game have been largely useless because they are quickly replaced with other items. With how random finding recipes was previously things like Leather Armor and Scrap Iron armor were never used unless you haven't found Iron Armor yet. Building materials had a similar problem. You could get to Concrete so quickly that everything else was pointless especially because of how much better Concrete -> Reinforced Concrete was. It was even more cost efficient to just build straight concrete rather than upgrade older things into it.

[Eyegore]

Up until a16, the long-standing criticism of 7d2d was that is was all good except for the end-game, where people just ran out of things to do or a reason to go on. I think The Fun Pimps were misguided in trying to fix this by making the early and mid games such a long grind, you'd give up playing on your own before noticing there was little to no end-game content. So now you can't do this until you are lvl 20, or that until lvl 40, etc, just because.

 

I actually like the skill perk system, minus the level gating - that's what ruins it.

[Zourin]

Level gating is fine in itself, but it needs to match the players' pace, especially early on. In a 'perfect game', the unlocks happen right as, or just before, a player has run the full course of their current tier. Tuning that takes effort, playtesting, and being open to suggestions.

 

What's not fine is when the level gating holds back players ready to advance. 7DTD is not a curated, level-based experience. The zombies you face now are the same zombies you face later. You cut your teeth on the real deal and it goes uphill from here. In that environment, the priority is to hit the ground running.

 

And so in A17, we hit the ground running. By around level 5, you probably *really* hate the stone axe for all the things it does; everything badly. I usually hit level 5 by day 3. By then, I've ID'ed a reasonable base location and established a stash. Then the scavenging for food, loot, and resources starts in earnest. Only.. you can't 'resource'. Your tool is the worst thing this side of the moon, if the moon was made of ass.

 

Levels 5-10 is then spent suffering the indignity of a tool fit for 20th century BC cave hobos while you try to prepare for high school prom. That takes prep. That takes stone and metal and wood. The stone axe is NOT up to that task, and you can't count on RNJesus to save your ass.

 

Sure, you may get lucky and find some tools. You may even find something to repair them with, but it's not consistent. Level 10 hits, you really want to get this show rolling, but lo.. you still have that ever so effective (as birth control) stone axe and still 10 more levels before the game actually starts.

[ubai]

I don't think level gating is ever good. It's a kludgy way to enforce player behavior, which is a bad idea in itself. In 7DtD, they double gate, which is the real problem. Everything is gated behind levels AND perks and points, which is just crazy.

 

If you rush to steel, for instance, it will still take some time, even without level gating. It isn't like people will have steel by level 2 or anything.

[RestInPieces]

The game has a limited amount of content. Before A17 one could skip a lot of content to easily get "end-game" items/materials. Slower progression IS needed. Every game with a sense of progression gates you one way or another to progressively experience its content. People complain about slower progression only because they have gotten used to getting the best items right away. Skipping that much content and then asking for more "end-game" content because the game "feels short" is ridiculous. The game must always gate you in some way.

 

As for the current way the game gates you, it's not surprising that people hate level locks. You get a large amount of points and you have to spread them to perks you may not want, because your level prevents you spending them in something you do want. Progression rate should remain as it is, but it would be better if people were gated by other things, like the amount of points they have, incremental costs etc.

[danielishhh]

The new skills system seems rushed and incomplete. TFP stated that they wanted players to specialize skills etc but by using the system they've put in place a "player" has essentially lost it's personality by not having skills set in for example mining tools, construction tool etc.

I get the fact that 1-5 is spread out over levels but again- it feels incomplete and unatural.

[Linkhead2]

It seems like the most common complaint is that it slows down the game progression. People have been able to rush straight to forge,cement and all other end game items in 1-3 days for years. Compared to that, the game progression is a lot slower. I think as far as EXP goes, things that aren't killing zombies need to give better exp. Unless you're grinding zombies leveling is quite slow.

 

Many things in the game have been largely useless because they are quickly replaced with other items. With how random finding recipes was previously things like Leather Armor and Scrap Iron armor were never used unless you haven't found Iron Armor yet. Building materials had a similar problem. You could get to Concrete so quickly that everything else was pointless especially because of how much better Concrete -> Reinforced Concrete was. It was even more cost efficient to just build straight concrete rather than upgrade older things into it.

 

Each day is 60 IRL mins (set to default) that is why, its a complete grinder to have to wait potential DAYS to get something done

[Thunderfrog]

It's a bad idea here. The amount of time you are married to some woefully inefficient stuff is way too long. They also slowed down some little things, like shovel damage in soil. The whole game feels terribly SLOW, in all dimensions of gameplay.

[Dimpy]

#GateGate

[Poojam]

It seems like the most common complaint is that it slows down the game progression. People have been able to rush straight to forge,cement and all other end game items in 1-3 days for years. Compared to that, the game progression is a lot slower. I think as far as EXP goes, things that aren't killing zombies need to give better exp. Unless you're grinding zombies leveling is quite slow.

 

Many things in the game have been largely useless because they are quickly replaced with other items. With how random finding recipes was previously things like Leather Armor and Scrap Iron armor were never used unless you haven't found Iron Armor yet. Building materials had a similar problem. You could get to Concrete so quickly that everything else was pointless especially because of how much better Concrete -> Reinforced Concrete was. It was even more cost efficient to just build straight concrete rather than upgrade older things into it.

 

The forge, cement, and "other end game items" are not end game items, nor have they been since this game was incepted. You might say they are as of A17, because of the level gates. But let's keep this framed in accurate terms.

 

The difference is that TFP see crafting a forge or workbench as an achievement. I do not. Filling a chest with cement powder and steel ingots is the achievement, because those have value towards what I really want to do in the game. The forge is just a tool. Having to level by killing zombies just to get a basic tool like a forge is awful. Killing zombies/shooting/melee'ing have never been this game's strong suit, and it's still not. It's even worse now that they removed the harvesting of bones and loot from them. There is only one reason to kill a zombie now, and that's to get XP. I'd rather be crafting stone axes or augering sand. It's just that dull.

 

A16 already set new spawns at a huge disadvantage on older PVP servers where the playerbase was fully leveled. You basically had to go hide out in the sticks for a week, build up, store materials, secure a base, and then venture out into the world to interact. Now it's more like a few weeks, and zombies will expose you. You can't even have multiple claimed caches now either. The fun part is that while you're killing zombies, anyone that kills you can keep killing you and death spiral your hp into the ground. Talk about potential for trolling. Even if they take pity and let you get your bag, you can't carry all your stuff because your inventory slots have re-locked and you'll be encumbered.

 

I agree that a lot of things in the game were useless. Many of the blocks were made useless when they allowed upgrades from wood to metal to reinforced concrete. I hated that oversimplification. It removed the planning aspect of the building process. I would rather have had wood and cobblestone get better and more useful, rather than concrete get harder/more time intensive to acquire mats/forge to manufacture.

 

Shaking my crystal ball.... it appears Madmole has been taking a vacation for a year and playing Fallout or something. He comes back, didn't like the game's state, and spent 2 more months filling it full of the action RPG mechanics that don't belong in a sandbox game like this. I thought A16 sucked when they added the level gates, but I pushed through the gates/grindiness on modded servers. It's just gotten that much worse again.

[Dimpy]

Why do so many people consider the forge to be a "basic" necessity?

[Poojam]

Because you need it to make anything other than the rudimentary stone tools?

[Dimpy]

And therefore players should have easy access to it?

[T_Rawls]

I modded the game so you'd have to be at least the same level as the attribute you wanna get. So by level 10 u can put points into whatever you want. If you want Intellect level 6 you have to be at least player level 6.

[Poojam]

And therefore players should have easy access to it?

 

Yes.

[Dimpy]

Yes.

 

Can you elaborate? That might make perfect sense to you, but I have trouble understanding that argument, and perhaps TFPs do too.

[Jugginator]

Look, if you want to have everything before day 7 and be able to become OP ASAP, open CM and give yourself stuff/give yourself XP via the console. Not everyone liked the fact that you reached end-game before day 14 (hell, sometimes I would reach iron tools and such on day ONE back in a16). To those of us ( and it seems a majority do) who wish for a grueling survival game as the game was intended originally, this is a welcomed change. Once you get these perks, the strength factor increases exponentially. I, and even some "casual gamer" friends I play with got bored when we become stockpiled with end-game tier loot and building supplies; we have way more fun and excitement having to actually scavenge the world for needed stuff, like a forge in a trader or POI.

 

My friend that I play with and I wandered to a trader that had a forge, crafted some iron arrowheads for the road, and picked up what we stored in a little wood-shack then took off on a journey to find a house somewhere that had a suitable building layout/a forge/workbench or something nearby a place that did. Picked up enough XP (me) to build a forge, and eventually, found a nice house with a workbench in the garage. What a joy it was to find that, and more pleasurable than building a workbench/forge day 1. So yes, I hope this stays; the option to go into CM and give yourself XP is still in the game.

[Viktoriusiii]

its not okay either in other games.

 

Give me ONE game that is worth a damn that has levelgating. And I'm pretty sure i will dislike it.

 

It is NEVER a good solution... always just a last resort, when you don't know how to restrict the player in other ways.

[Jugginator]

its not okay either in other games.

 

Give me ONE game that is worth a damn that has levelgating. And I'm pretty sure i will dislike it.

 

It is NEVER a good solution... always just a last resort, when you don't know how to restrict the player in other ways.

 

Just because YOU dislike it doesn't mean its bad. This generation is all about "if I don't like it it's horrible and get rid of it NOW!".

[Poojam]

Just because YOU dislike it doesn't mean its bad. This generation is all about "if I don't like it it's horrible and get rid of it NOW!".

 

It's bad. I agree with Vik.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Can you elaborate? That might make perfect sense to you, but I have trouble understanding that argument, and perhaps TFPs do too.

 

I did already. In this thread.

[Jugginator]

It's bad. I agree with Vik.

 

Correction, you DISLIKE it. It doesn't mean EVERYONE should dislike it. Opinion means opinion, it doesn't mean fact. If you took a poll that reached 90-100% of the players and more than half disliked it, then sure I'd see a reason to change it. But if it's just a handful of people who want everything at the start of the game, then no. Stop demanding everyone else to like only what YOU like. It's an EVERYONE thing, not a handful of people thing.

 

In fact, why do you think the Steam ratings went into very-positive from mixed in the transition from A16 to A17 experimental? Obviously, a majority of the people are liking it. It's about the larger mass of players. And most of the complaints about level gating are instant-rages and not even thinking things through. You CAN survive with stone tools. You just have to adapt, and not sit there like "Well, guess I'll just sit here and die". You can now, and before, find what you need without even crafting a forge/workbench. You can get around not having iron tools before you can craft them -- if you think outside the small, hand-carrying box. With a closed-mind like that, you won't enjoy it. Be more open-minded and you'll have more fun.

[elucidus]

Personally, it is that using level gating reduces the options of how I can level, ultimately forcing me to play a certain way. If I want to save up points over multiple levels in order to maximize my weapon quality, rather than upgrading using those weapons, I should be able to. But by level gating, and even more specifically removing quality damage bonuses, that completely removes that option. A lot of other roleplaying games havea lot more going on, and grinding is a possibility, some of us even enjoy it, but now that is gone too.

[Jugginator]

Personally, it is that using level gating reduces the options of how I can level, ultimately forcing me to play a certain way. If I want to save up points over multiple levels in order to maximize my weapon quality, rather than upgrading using those weapons, I should be able to. But by level gating, and even more specifically removing quality damage bonuses, that completely removes that option. A lot of other roleplaying games havea lot more going on, and grinding is a possibility, some of us even enjoy it, but now that is gone too.

 

Nah, spend your points as you get them. I spent a point every level, and when I reached 20 I was able to get the INT and perks which allowed me to craft iron tools/forge, and I've been able to place points in cooking/heavy armor/perception/archery/Boom Headshot/Endurance/Agility/Cardio/miner 69er(and the other 2 resource perks I forgot their names)/the wrenching perk.

[Hryllingur]

Just a little reply to all those "We need more XP"-Voices ... Ever made a TreasureHunt in A17? Effort of one (and they always drop twice) is 30k XP. Yep, a bit of luck, sure. But selling Diamonds, Silver and Gold is pretty nice to get XP.

 

But yep, i jump on the "More XP for Basebuilding"-Train.