Underground bases - what's the status of making them vulnerable to zombies?

[pahbi]

I think we should have a sanity stat.

 

If your underground to long, eventually your character goes insane and screams out, 'I CAN"T TAKE IT UNDERGROUND ANYMORE' and are lost forever.

 

- P

[Guppycur]

I didn't sign an nda. Ask me questions. =)

[Blazer777]

or why dont you whinny babies leave us mole people alone it doesnt affect the above worlders at all just pvp babies that complain if you dont like the underground dont go there or mod it out of your server

[zombie4hire]

Mod the underground out of your server? Bedrock and nothing on top?

 

Or a single layer of soil or rock? Odd idea.

[Roland]

I wasn't specifically referring to you and obtuse does not mean obscure or vague. It means annoyingly insensitive and slow to understand. Basically giving out convoluted and unrealistic feedback that fails to realistically address the complaint. This is usually due to the complainer not knowing what they want. Obtuse feedback is some of the worst kind of feedback for developers because any changes that address the complaint are usually met initially with contempt and even more complaints. This is the kind of stuff distributed by the loudest and most ridiculous part of a fan base.

 

Ah...I misunderstood the meaning of obtuse. I've probably been using it wrong for quite awhile since I did think it meant obscure or vague. So instead it means annoyingly insensitive and slow to understand, huh? (That doesn't make me feel any better...)

 

So, what exactly is the feedback you are finding annoyingly insensitive and dull-witted? You said you weren't referring to me but I'm the one you keep quoting. To what exactly, then, are you referring? What is the loud and ridiculous part of the fan base and what is their argument that is insensitive and stupid?

 

And the solution to the lack of underground challenge right now is to just not play completely underground. Again, self-restraint. It's the same sort of complaint that comes from people who have an issue with constantly cheating in a game where they want the developers to give an option to completely disable the console so they don't need to exercise self-restraint. Aside from that, change block durability, increase zombie difficulty, choose a more difficult location, etc. The game is already hyper customizable. Consistently griping about an issue like this is not doing anyone any good.

 

Are we talking about two different things? It seems like you are talking about general difficulty of the game and can't understand why we are discussing making the underground more difficult when there are other ways to make the game more difficult. You keep saying don't go there and make other aspects of the game more difficult if that's what you want-- an overall more difficult play experience.

 

If that is what you think my focus is you are mistaken. I can't speak for others here but I've never wanted digging zombies for the purpose of making the overall game more difficult (but that's the only thing I could think of). I want digging zombies because I specifically want the underworld part of the game to be more interesting and challenging.

 

Man, I just went back and re-read your posts and that is it. You think I'm trying to come up with ways to make the game harder and because there are so many easily customizable ways to do that without even messing with the underworld you are annoyed that we keep bringing up the underworld which can't be changed right now so isn't even an option-- except to ignore it and get our challenges elsewhere.

 

I really doubt that anyone who wants a more challenging underworld and is here in this thread to discuss ways that that could happen are doing it because they've run out of other ideas to make the game generally tougher. I think its safe to say they just want the underworld, itself, to be more challenging for playing.

 

And by all means discuss, but if the first kind of response you give to anyone who criticizes difficulty fiends amounts to "no u", you're going to get low quality discussions. Especially if all you're going to do is argue semantics and "gotcha" replies.

 

We try, man. We try to discuss ideas and what would be cool for the underworld but then all these obtuse people come on the thread and just chant over and over again "Don't force us to play a certain way and why do you care if I play underground 100% safe?!??!!".

 

I'm grokking the correct definition of obtuse now.

 

I'm happy to discuss the pros and cons of any idea to add challenge to underworld. And if you will kindly notice the thread title, it says nothing about looking for solutions to make the general game more difficult. It is purely and simply a thread wondering what can be done to make underground bases vulnerable because that is what he wants for his own game. If you want to open a new thread entitled, "How can we make the game more difficult without touching the underworld?" I would be happy to contribute to that thread and you won't hear a peep from me about digging zombies.

[Tin]

Ah...I misunderstood the meaning of obtuse. I've probably been using it wrong for quite awhile since I did think it meant obscure or vague. So instead it means annoyingly insensitive and slow to understand, huh?

 

 

So, what exactly is the feedback you are finding annoyingly insensitive and dull-witted? You said you weren't referring to me but I'm the one you keep quoting. To what exactly, then, are you referring? What is the loud and ridiculous part of the fan base and what is their argument that is insensitive and stupid?

 

 

 

Are we talking about two different things? It seems like you are talking about general difficulty of the game and can't understand why we are discussing making the underground more difficult when there are other ways to make the game more difficult. You keep saying don't go there and make other aspects of the game more difficult if that's what you want-- an overall more difficult play experience.

 

If that is what you think my focus is you are mistaken. I can't speak for others here but I've never wanted digging zombies for the purpose of making the overall game more difficult (but that's the only thing I could think of). I want digging zombies because I specifically want the underworld part of the game to be more interesting and challenging.

 

Man, I just went back and re-read your posts and that is it. You think I'm trying to come up with ways to make the game harder and because there are so many easily customizable ways to do that without even messing with the underworld you are annoyed that we keep bringing up the underworld which can't be changed right now so isn't even an option-- except to ignore it and get our challenges elsewhere.

 

I really doubt that anyone who wants a more challenging underworld and is here in this thread to discuss ways that that could happen are doing it because they've run out of other ideas to make the game generally tougher. I think its safe to say they just want the underworld, itself, to be more challenging for playing.

 

 

 

We try, man. We try to discuss ideas and what would be cool for the underworld but then all these obtuse people come on the thread and just chant over and over again "Don't force us to play a certain way and why do you care if I play underground 100% safe?!??!!".

 

I'm grokking the correct definition of obtuse now.

 

I'm happy to discuss the pros and cons of any idea to add challenge to underworld. And if you will kindly notice the thread title, it says nothing about looking for solutions to make the general game more difficult. It is purely and simply a thread wondering what can be done to make underground bases vulnerable because that is what he wants for his own game. If you want to open a new thread entitled, "How can we make the game more difficult without touching the underworld?" I would be happy to contribute to that thread and you won't hear a peep from me about digging zombies.

 

Yep +1

[SnowDog1942]

You certainly wouldnt run a Charcoal BBQ grill in your house even if you had the windows open,

 

If there was Zombies walking around outside my house I sure as Hell would.

[Shelgeyr]

... if Madmole delivers a stealth perk that makes you undetectable on horde night then that would be the best solution for everyone. You could purchase that perk and be 100% safe underground and I would forgo that perk and have to defend my subterranean base. Both of us get to live underground and have the gameplay we desire.

Gonna have to agree with you on this one. Offering players a big shiny "opt out of the terrifying experience of being hunted by zombies with GPS" button does sound like a pretty effective compromise. Also, those settlements you mentioned sound like they could be an alternative as well.

 

I didn't mean to be condescending but I do find it ridiculous that people purchase games that claim to be one thing and then they demand that they be something else. I was simply drawing a parallel between a person who purchases a racing game but then doesn't want to drive a car and someone who purchases a survival base defense game but then doesn't want survival elements or any kind of base defense...

 

If my analogy was off it at least revealed one thing. You (and perhaps the rest with your point of view) see the underworld as the grassy oval in the middle of the racing track. That's why you can't understand why people like me are being selfish by driving off the track and tearing up the grassy area in the middle when there is no need to drive there. "Just stay on the racing track if you want to race" is what you are effectively telling us. I can understand how someone who has played a lot of static world games wouldn't be used to the idea of voxel world games and not intuitively get that in a voxel world the underworld is a major part of the track.

 

So this game is a game about survival and base defense from an insidious zombie threat AND it is a voxel world in which tunneling and playing in the underworld is as much part of the gamespace as the overworld (which is very different than most other non-voxel games) When, I gave my analogy I was visualizing people having their tea party out on the track preventing those who bought a racing game the ability to race. You immediately visualized them off the track. Well, the problem is that the underworld is not off the track. It is an integral part of creating this world in a voxel framework and telling people to just choose not to play there is not the same thing as saying don't drive the car up in the spectator stands...

See, you say you don't want to be condescending and then you type things like this.

For one thing, and let me be honest - I am intentionally being pedantic - the tagline is "The Survival Horde Crafting Game" not "The Survival Base Defense Game".

You suggest that I bought a survival game and don't want survival elements. Everything I do in this game is driven by its survival elements, which are precisely why I bought it in the first place. That, and the fact that the question of how to defend one's base has always been completely up to the player.

Sometimes I build my fortress on stilts so tall I can't even hear the zombies growling down below.

Other times, I surround it with a spike-filled pit that is deep and wide.

Occasionally, I rely on electric fences and shotgun turrets to keep me safe at night.

Hell, I've even played nomad-style games in which I maintained no permanent base and never spent 2 nights in the same location.

So, no ... I would not agree with your assessment that I don't want a survival game or that I have no desire for any kind of base defense.

I also am offended by your insinuation that I am unfamiliar with voxel games. You can be forgiven for not knowing that I have over 1,600 hours in this game, have in fact been playing since a time when all blocks were cubes and zombie running was determined by light level rather than time of day, and that I played Minecraft for years before picking up 7D2D but my join date is displayed just as clearly as your own so there's really not much excuse for thinking me ignorant.

Ascribing to me a plebeian level of familiarity with the concepts on which this game is built because you disagree with some of my viewpoints should be beneath you.

[Roland]

Gonna have to agree with you on this one. Offering players a big shiny "opt out of the terrifying experience of being hunted by zombies with GPS" button does sound like a pretty effective compromise. Also, those settlements you mentioned sound like they could be an alternative as well.

 

Yes, I do believe that having an opt out of horde night perk is the best solution.

 

See, you say you don't want to be condescending and then you type things like this.

 

Are you sure you aren't just too easily offended? If I remove any and all assumptions about your knowledge and experience and deliver my point unsullied by anything that could possibly offend will you give answer to the point? Because you spent your post defending your honor instead of addressing the point. So here it is:

 

You said that the analogy should have been a racing game with a grassy oval in the middle of the track where racers can race and nonracers can mingle simultaneously without affecting each other at all.

 

My point is that as a voxel game where mining and playing underground are a huge aspect of the game I consider the underworld as being part of the track and not part of the grassy oval. Maybe we do need a "grassy oval" but I emphatically don't believe the underworld to be it.

 

For one thing, and let me be honest - I am intentionally being pedantic - the tagline is "The Survival Horde Crafting Game" not "The Survival Base Defense Game".

 

Since we're being pedantic here is the official description of the game on the store page which really trumps the tagline if precision and exactness are the goal....

 

Set in a brutally unforgiving post-apocalyptic world overrun by the undead, 7 Days to Die is an open-world game that is a unique combination of first person shooter, survival horror, tower defense, and role-playing games. It presents combat, crafting, looting, mining, exploration, and character growth, in a way that has seen a rapturous response from fans worldwide. Play the definitive zombie survival sandbox RPG that came first. Navezgane awaits!

 

Half of the play space in the world is not even close to brutally unforgiving, there is no first person shooting, survival horror, or tower defense going on in the underworld. Yes, you can role-play down there it is true.

 

 

Ascribing to me a plebeian level of familiarity with the concepts on which this game is built because you disagree with some of my viewpoints should be beneath you.

 

I hereby acknowledge your vast experience and apologize for besmirching your gamer cred in the manner I did. I didn't do it because I disagree with you. That really is beneath me and if I were one to more easily take offense I might say something about you assuming such a thing...

 

I did it because I mistakenly ascribed a reason for you not considering the underworld as "part of the racetrack". I admit I was hasty and I was wrong about you.

 

I would love to hear why you think the underworld should be that "grassy oval", set apart and not governed by how the rest of the game plays out. Given that this is a voxel game and going underground is a selling point and an advantage of a game like this over other similar non-voxel games, why shouldn't it also be brutally unforgiving and a place of combat, survival horror, and tower-defense?

[themirror]

Seriously guys... Let the players choose how they will play... If the player want to dig a hole to the hell to avoid zombies, let them dig!

From few to few times someone create a topic like this "hey, we need to put zombies to harass the moles because hiding from a horde is unfair".

For me it's pointless dig a hole just to hide from a 7 day horde but who cares?

There is no rule saying that players need to play on a certain behavior.

If you dig a hole to the hell on day 7 horde, you will lose XP from killing, from building/repairing, blunt/archery/firearms, etc. that's fine... it's the player choice

 

I think that the game need some environmental danger on underground tunnels like oxygen quality, ventilation, heating... but maybe this things will never show up in the game and it's ok.

You guys really need to stop trying to tell how ppl will play their games....

 

sorry for the english, i'm sick as hell and it's 6AM

[Burakin]

Don't tell me how to play!

 

(...too early in the convo?)

 

just a mite. you have to make other people feel they can deliver input too even if you can rightly predict based on experience that thats where it's headed

[Guppycur]

just a mite. you have to make other people feel they can deliver input too even if you can rightly predict based on experience that thats where it's headed

 

Don't tell me how to post!

 

(was that better?)

[OneArmedBandit]

Don't tell me how to post!

 

(was that better?)

 

Don't tell me not to tell you how to post!!

 

- there you are

[Shelgeyr]

Are you sure you aren't just too easily offended?

Honestly, no. I'm not certain of that at all.

Beginning of my day, when I've just taken my Adderall and haven't yet had to cope with any stress factors, I'm a lot more reasonable than at the end of my day when the meds have worn off and I've used up all my spoons.

 

Because you spent your post defending your honor instead of addressing the point.

Yeah, I know. I actually typed up some of my thinking on that matter but the feeling of being snubbed just got to me and I abandoned "reasonable discourse" in favor of outrage

 

I would love to hear why you think the underworld should be that "grassy oval", set apart and not governed by how the rest of the game plays out. Given that this is a voxel game and going underground is a selling point and an advantage of a game like this over other similar non-voxel games, why shouldn't it also be brutally unforgiving and a place of combat, survival horror, and tower-defense?

I don't, to be honest, which is why my first post contained suggestions for making the underground part of the world less safe.

Here's the thing : I'm not a masochist about difficulty level. I don't exactly want everything to be "Care Bear" easy, but I tend to avoid the highest-threat aspects of the game world.

One of the things I typed last night before changing my mind was how there are biomes that I avoid for this very reason. I don't obsessively stick to plains or forest - I'll happily build my base in the desert or snow biomes as well - but I don't set up shop in the Burnt Forest or Wasteland because they're just harsher than I want to have to deal with on a regular basis.

So with regards to the point about "don't go there if you don't like it", I don't feel that's necessarily my recommendation as a solution, but I don't disagree with it either. There are places in the world that present different threat levels and everyone is free to choose one that matches up with their playstyle or comfort level.

Zombie GPS and the fact that no building material is impervious to even the most basic form of attack violates my sense of fair play in much the way a racing game would feel if the AI could win in a Ford Pinto while the human player was driving a McLaren P1.

The way things currently stand, underground dwelling is the "exploit" which nullifies that unfairness and I don't like the idea of the loophole being closed - at least, not without an alternative being given in exchange.

 

And that's basically it, in a nutshell. I don't want to play in creative mode, or switch to the lowest difficulty setting to make the entire game "easy". I just want to be allowed to opt-out of what I consider to be the unfair bits and perceived your arguments as a direct threat to that ability.

When I entered this thread, I didn't know about settlements and that stealth perk you mentioned, so all I could see was "mole people are too safe, we need to nerf them".

[Roland]

I can respect that. I would be happy with a forest biome level of threat in the underworld. It definitely doesn’t need to be wasteland level. And then modders can create wasteland level threat for those who want to go that extra.

[Blazer777]

or just leave us mole people alone guys and dont make m get maharin in here

[Guest Rust Buddy]

Rust doesnt have any of this drama and its so much bigger than this game. Point is that you dont even have to have an underground area to have a good survival game. So my vote is just make it so noone can tunnel down and watch this game get closer to Rust in sales and players. When your not number one you should look and see what the number one game is doing and then try and do it but better instead of doing something that isnt even needed. You can get all you need from surface boulders and scrapping stuff in stores and houses. I think there was even a vote awhile ago and more people said they would rather have more zombies than an underground area. Duh!

 

Madmole just needs to realize that mining by tunneling is unnecessary and it messes up PvP with looking through the world and it keeps us from getting huge hoards of zombies and drop it already. we can still build with blocks but just make the terrain indestructible and finally improve this game in better ways with more zombies already

[skullpoker]

Yes, I do believe that having an opt out of horde night perk is the best solution.

 

See, that's already in the game, and haters already hatin. That's the whole point of this thread.

 

Many many hours could be better spent by leaving the current opt-out alone rather than creating a whole new opt-out while also coding it so that the current one is gone.

 

May as well close the thread now. You're welcome.

[SnowDog1942]

Madmole just needs to realize that mining by tunneling is unnecessary and it messes up PvP with looking through the world and it keeps us from getting huge hoards of zombies and drop it already. we can still build with blocks but just make the terrain indestructible and finally improve this game in better ways with more zombies already

 

You go ahead and let us know when these devs decide to balance this game primarily for PvP

 

Go play battlefield or Fortnite if you want PVP

[OneArmedBandit]

Rust ...

 

we could also pick up some mechanics, lore and magic from, let's say, Elex. and make the game more like Elex. because I love Elex!!

 

but that's so much beside the point it almost fits again from the other side. if you want to play a game that is like Rust why would you want this game to be more like rust when you could simply play...Rust...instead?!

 

 

the success of this game lies in it's unique overall design. the devs have a vision and they will (hopefully!) follow their own dream, not copy some other game just because everyone knows it works. furthermore - as mentioned a thousand times before - pvp is (luckily!) quite a way down on their priority list as in: this game is not meant to be played pvp from the beginning. why don't people get that?

 

much is already possible through modding. there are many pvp-servers running, and if people enjoy it, that's great! But for more pvp players might have to wait for another game, maybe tfp focus on this aspect someday

[KeiraR]

Mommy i don't want to fight the zombies, can't we go underground?

No dear, we have to fight them because we bought the game and we knew it was a survival game when we bought it.

But we can set difficulty, how many zombies spawn, etc..., why can't we just hide from or flee the zombies?

The fanbois ruled that this is how we should play so, yeah, nothing we can do so shut up and get your bow ready.

[meganoth]

Seriously guys... Let the players choose how they will play... If the player want to dig a hole to the hell to avoid zombies, let them dig!

 

Again and again this argument comes up and it is wrong. The underground is not something only you have. Each of us is a player with his own underground, and if I want dangers in MY underground it is about how I play the game not about how others play it.

 

Sure, our objectives are still contrary if you want a safe underground, but all that speaks for your case is a customary right (if that ever existed in an alpha), not some ill-found theory we would like to influence how YOU play the game.

 

The player can choose, always. In the confines of the rules of the game. You are just used to all the other rules that you don't recognize that these rules covern you the same as any new rule TFP may come up with.

[Roland]

The fanbois ruled...

 

So the definition of fanboi is someone who wants an underground threat or just someone with a different set of preferences than you have...?

 

Its laughable that you think any discussion in this thread is going to actually rule what happens with the game. There isn't a single person here having this conversation who has power to change the vanilla version of the game or make the developers do something they don't want to do. Telling yourself that "the devs listened to a small outspoken faction" every time they make a decision you don't personally like is keeping yourself in a fantasy world. 99% of the time when it seems that the devs have "listened" to our feedback about game direction and balance it is because they already decided to do it that way on their own.

 

I read people making suggestions for things that are already on the to do list but not revealed yet-- all the time. Even when an overwhelming negative reaction to a design decision happens, the developers only change it after playing with it and deciding that they also don't like the result-- otherwise it stays. Let's just burst all the conspiracy theories:

 

The devs are not influenced by some hypnotic minority.

The devs don't steal people's mods and shoehorn them into the game.

The devs don't cruise the Pimp Dreams forum looking for a direction because they're fresh out of ideas.

The devs aren't dragging out development because they're lazy

The devs aren't stumped about what they need to do or how to finish the game and so they are just redoing the same old stuff over and over and over because they are at the limit of their capabilities.

The devs aren't staying away from the forums because their feelings got hurt by negative comments.

 

These are all things I've heard and its all bunk that angry and disappointed people use to massage their egos when something doesn't go their own way.

 

The truth about underworld threats is that they were already in the game from the beginning. Zombies used to dig and it wasn't by accident. Cave systems populated by zombies and wights were implemented in the game years ago. These things were not taken out because TFP wanted to make the underworld a safe haven. They were removed simply because of performance issues and because of aesthetic issues. Getting those original threats back has simply been low on the priority list. If underground threats return sooner rather than later it will simply be because TFP prioritized that back to the top of the list rather than that they were duped by some fanbois into going in a direction they never would have gone otherwise.

 

Go tell your Mommy THAT.

[Gamida]

So the definition of fanboi is someone who wants an underground threat or just someone with a different set of preferences than you have...?

 

Its laughable that you think any discussion in this thread is going to actually rule what happens with the game. There isn't a single person here having this conversation who has power to change the vanilla version of the game or make the developers do something they don't want to do. Telling yourself that "the devs listened to a small outspoken faction" every time they make a decision you don't personally like is keeping yourself in a fantasy world. 99% of the time when it seems that the devs have "listened" to our feedback about game direction and balance it is because they already decided to do it that way on their own.

 

I read people making suggestions for things that are already on the to do list but not revealed yet-- all the time. Even when an overwhelming negative reaction to a design decision happens, the developers only change it after playing with it and deciding that they also don't like the result-- otherwise it stays. Let's just burst all the conspiracy theories:

 

The devs are not influenced by some hypnotic minority.

The devs don't steal people's mods and shoehorn them into the game.

The devs don't cruise the Pimp Dreams forum looking for a direction because they're fresh out of ideas.

The devs aren't dragging out development because they're lazy

The devs aren't stumped about what they need to do or how to finish the game and so they are just redoing the same old stuff over and over and over because they are at the limit of their capabilities.

The devs aren't staying away from the forums because their feelings got hurt by negative comments.

 

These are all things I've heard and its all bunk that angry and disappointed people use to massage their egos when something doesn't go their own way.

 

The truth about underworld threats is that they were already in the game from the beginning. Zombies used to dig and it wasn't by accident. Cave systems populated by zombies and wights were implemented in the game years ago. These things were not taken out because TFP wanted to make the underworld a safe haven. They were removed simply because of performance issues and because of aesthetic issues. Getting those original threats back has simply been low on the priority list. If underground threats return sooner rather than later it will simply be because TFP prioritized that back to the top of the list rather than that they were duped by some fanbois into going in a direction they never would have gone otherwise.

 

Go tell your Mommy THAT.

 

I did. She said you're a big meany who says mean things and...and..and you're mean...ya big meany.

[Guppycur]

Big fat meany. Don't sugar coat it gam.

 

@roland I heard the devs avoid the forums except for all of the times they don't. Is that true?