Crater Creator Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 Yes and no. It depends on how close to the surface the air pockets are but for gameplay purposes all tunnels could be ignored until a large enough excavation close enough to the surface could cause a collapse. Hmm... I think you may have hit on something pretty profound here. Conceptually, a big hole right under a base is going to cause problems, but the same sized hole a kilometer deeper isn't as big of a deal. So I'm wondering if, instead of a new type of block with different properties, SI could pay progressively less attention to blocks the farther below they are from the block in question. I'm still thinking about the math, but the first spitball would be, like, the SI calculation for block (x,y,z) terminates down at block (x,y,z-20) instead of down at block (x,y,[bedrock]). If you get down to (x,y,z-20) and SI still holds up, that's good enough. It's similar to your granite & foundation ideas, but applied as a relative offset each time SI is calculated instead of at absolute values where special blocks exist. I'm not defining this very rigorously, and someone will probably point out it again allows floating castles, but I think there's something here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crater Creator Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 Hm, well it might mostly be an issue when playing with friends sharing the same chunk. That's... actually a pretty valid point. Especially important for earlier game play when you can't make defenses that can blast away a wandering horde or screamer spawns before they completely wreck your base. You could have a talk with these so-called friends about why they're blithely letting the nearby zombies eat your base. - - - Updated - - - Yeah, i'm not saying halt the discussion. Not at all. Just wondering if he's thought of some reasons to avoid the granite solution or variations using the granite solution. Reason to avoid the granite solution: any amount of granite allows for unreachable bases floating in air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pille Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 If the opening is outside of the loaded chunks, then there is no opening within the calculable volume. So the algorithm returns that there is no opening, considers the loaded subset of your whole assembly as a closed structure, and spawns the zombies just outside the walls of the tunnel or other connected part of your base, outside of the player's audible range. As for how loud the zombie is while digging, all I'm saying is TFP could decide this hypothetical zombie digs in total silence, and we'd have no grounds on which to say they're wrong. They could spawn in any faraway branch tunnels. So they couldn't reach the player without digging through the whole map. There's no algorithm that can avoid this. Either the digging zombies are ineffective or they destroy the half map. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crater Creator Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 They could spawn in any faraway branch tunnels. So they couldn't reach the player without digging through the whole map. There's no algorithm that can avoid this. Either the digging zombies are ineffective or they destroy the half map. I'm not sure I'm following you anymore. No matter what you build, it's surrounded by air and/or terrain. There is always a spot outside of your building for a zombie to spawn. It's like your base is inside a giant pincushion representing the extent of the game world. Pins are pushed in from different arbitrary angles, starting from the surface of the pincushion and extending inwards until they hit some block you placed. At the tip of each pin is one of these hypothetical zombies that can dig and fill in after itself. What we're talking about here is that the zombie doesn't have to exist as soon as they penetrate the pincushion. They only have to exist by the time A) You can sense them; or B) They'll begin to change the world. Since they dig and fill in after themselves, they don't change the world until they hit a player block. Therefore, the game can 'cut to the chase' and spawn them when they would theoretically reach a point where you can sense them (A), or right at the first player block they would theoretically encounter (B). Sure, you can place player blocks at far flung locations, and some zombies would then theoretically have to spawn pretty far out. But you would only catch all of them by enclosing yourself on all sides, and the resource cost of doing that goes up with the square of distance, the same as with any base building. Whether it's a fully enclosed base or a base with long branching tunnels or an M.C. Escher drawing brought to life doesn't really matter: the digging zombies would be as effective as needed for balance, and they'd only destroy parts of the map the player had modified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meganoth Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 Reason to avoid the granite solution: any amount of granite allows for unreachable bases floating in air. I'll post the answer I gave you a few pages previously again as you seem to have missed it: If this is the problem with granite, then it isn't a problem. If granite resets SI calculation for anything above it but not for itself then it still needs dirt or stone below it. In other words it will not float. Please correct me if I'm wrong here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pille Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 I'm not sure I'm following you anymore. No matter what you build, it's surrounded by air and/or terrain. There is always a spot outside of your building for a zombie to spawn. Ok, I am going to start another attempt to explain my point of view (but later)... Btw. how do you define outside and inside (regarding the term 'base')? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldranon Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 I'll post the answer I gave you a few pages previously again as you seem to have missed it: If this is the problem with granite, then it isn't a problem. If granite resets SI calculation for anything above it but not for itself then it still needs dirt or stone below it. In other words it will not float. Please correct me if I'm wrong here. If it only checks SI one block below then it can float with one block of stone attached. - - - Updated - - - I didnt follow FO4 development so I dunno how they handled the confusion issue. Not the code, the design of being able to mod each part of the weapon. It was a good idea, use that as a base perhaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space4Ace Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 Hey MadMole, it's the weekend! How about a new video?? Not that I want to repeat what you just said but... I just did! 😁 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royal Deluxe Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 Before we raise the complexity of the topic further i would like to reduce it to the core We have here 2 different problems at the topic of Basebuilding 1: SI The Si need Stable underground or better said pillars able to hold the whole base Easy solvable by Pillars from Bedrock to Surfacelevel 2: Spawn. The spawner need to be able to spawn Zombies outside of a secured area. Means player compounds cant be larger than around 60x60 Meters (i Choose 53x53 for my Prefabs) Or Zombies cant spawn on the other Side of the Base Area OUTSIDE of the area. Because the Max Spawnrange would be inside of the "Wall". Point one is easy to solve by a (Multiblock) Drill block that is fueled with Gas and Concrete and Build automatic such a Pillar Example: This way even noobs can build a Foundation Point Two need to be reflected ingame, as example by a Claimstone with that measures. Btw 53x53 looks so The topic of Threads against underground should base on that both points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meganoth Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 If it only checks SI one block below then it can float with one block of stone attached. No, the one block of stone would fall because it has no SI unless it gets its SI from the side or below it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royal Deluxe Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 All tricks i read until know let me imagine huge castles on a single tree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sillls Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 Yes. Agreed. In addition, "Let's make surface dwelling more enjoyable" and "let's make underground dwelling challenging" are not for the purpose of coaxing or driving people to the surface. That isn't the point at all. We want the underground to be an interesting, fulfilling, engaging, and challenging place to play the game. I don't want to drive anyone out. I want to go in and still be able to enjoy the game. So, how to TFP's feel about all of this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sillls Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 I thought that Madmole was going to put out a video this weekend about the new bike and other things. Is that still happening? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prisma501 Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 I thought that Madmole was going to put out a video this weekend about the new bike and other things. Is that still happening? The weekend is not over yet So my guess is yeah. When? Dunno. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royal Deluxe Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 Not over is good, @ MM its Saturday 7:00 in the morning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt 1977 Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 Sat.11.45pm down under Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menace312 Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 The assembly system isn't going away. Only the parts are supposed to become useful and interesting instead of every pistol receiver being the same as every other pistol receiver... with one number changed. Ah interesting... Very interesting... I understand that this whole thing is in the development stage, so what is doable and feasible for release, is what we'll get. But it sounds to me like, the assembly system is moving in the directing of different parts... So like different gun parts for the same type of gun and different receivers and so on... It then also makes sense to call them "mods" instead of "parts" since the same gun can behave very differently. I wonder how close this will be to the Fallout system... Of cause inspiration has been taken from there, but I bet TFP will do their own thing with it... Maaaan... At the risk of being premature: Release the Kraken!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZombieToad Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 Someone wake the Mole 😱 Vid vid vid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tok Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 I like the idea of upgraded parts for the guns, rather than just generic parts with higher numbers. Like in Resident Evil 2 where you would find a briefcase with gun parts in and there would be a brief description for what the part did to the weapon. Probably one of the coolest moments when I found an extended barrel part for the dessert eagle and it exploded zombies heads in one shot with a ton of recoil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graphite Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 Its interesting the point Crater Creator has bought up with the zombie not being an actual visual collidable entity until you can sense them or they begin to change the world. I didnt like this and i could not work out why i did not and my thinking seemed illogical because the zombie is digging you cannot see it and the terrain is being replaced. Main problem i can see is is calculating when you have sensed a zombie i would think the first thing was you could hear them but that sound event would need to be added to the zombie before its entity can collide. So this will come down to a block distance in reality that a zombie can spawn near you which defeats the object to some degree of a dynamic non colliding entity. You might as well not do the calculations and have a set distance zombies can spawn from. Would this give players an advantage once this distance was discovered i dont know but if it did you would have to extend the distance and randomise it and we are back to chunk 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackelmyer Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 The current SI has no concept of being too heavy to rest on something... Yeah I does. It's why the fifth wood frame you attach to an unsupported block falls. How walking on a block at it's limit knows to collapse. Maybe it's just the way your sentence is worded that throws me. But things being too heavy to sit on each other is basically the SI system. Though I don't understand the function of a foundation at this point in the discussion as I think the design of it may have gotten a little out of hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoWaNing Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 I hope the sleepers and zombies get some overhaul. Game has just gotten to easy even from the beginning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackelmyer Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 Reason to avoid the granite solution: any amount of granite allows for unreachable bases floating in air. The original pitch for granite, sure. But where I went to with a suggestion, not at all. Because where I went to, granite itself has the same SI behavior as stone. With the only difference, anything resting on top of it is considered supported as though supported by bedrock. The sides of the granite block have to be supported by this definition. Or it collapses. At that point, the only real issues is caverns and caves can't be huge. So if you want, you can increase the load bearing potential of the granite block, but that doesn't mean you get floating bases. As the granite block itself, first and foremost, must be connected to a supported block or a block with enough load bearing capacity to hold it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackelmyer Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 They could spawn in any faraway branch tunnels. So they couldn't reach the player without digging through the whole map. There's no algorithm that can avoid this. Either the digging zombies are ineffective or they destroy the half map. My problem with a zombie spawning outside my base underground is that if they're not coming through a tunnel, and they dig right up to my forge room wall, I've got no way to defend my base. I have to wait for a breach of my base to even fight the Zombies. Counter? Dig a GIANT air pocket around the forge room and trap/turret all exposed sides (five sides if I'm on bedrock, 6 if not on bedrock). Seems really annoying and prone to simply making a sink hole to the surface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pille Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 @Crater Creator I came to the conclusion that this question is essential for further discussions...: Btw. how do you define outside and inside (regarding the term 'base')? Atm the discussion is a bit pointless since we don't have a common basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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