unholyjoe Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Modded Servers get less players (at least many admins claim that) Looks like many players understand under modded allways big mods that have not much left from vanilla And there i can speak only for myself. I am carefull too, because the is no oversight what is modded and i dont like these big mods that left nearly nothing from the Vanilla Gameplay, or the "wannabe" Mods from some Admins that have Gamebreaking edits. whereas i see a server in modded as being something changed and the choice would be mine to join it or not... i mean even changing the time or difficulty mode should still show as modded because it is modded yet i see people very upset about it and want tfp to change it so it doesnt show as modded... if i hop onto a server that has been changed to 120 minute days but cant see its modded til i get in, then i see it as false advertisement or plain deceitful. but thats just me i guess. it takes all kinds to make the world as it is. thanks for your insight RD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graphite Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 I have to agree that developers will set a difficulty and that balance will tip toward the player once most have read a guide or watched a video on tips and tricks. Not sure if everyone was isolated from that they would work out how to circumvent and create tactical measures at an even rate or to a general effective level. I think it is right that developers will give the player a chance as its what they like to do, create a game that is rewarding to play. Setting the balance so the scales keep tipping from enemy AI to player is key to a good development team. You can make a great game and then make it balanced without that balance sesaw and weight towards the player and the player will play it until they beat it a few times and say great game but i have overplayed it. If the game keeps beating you now and again then it makes you want to try again. Has anyone investigated about tic tac toe (naughts and crosses) when you program an opponent ai, look it up if you are interested and have time. Making the frequency of this scale tip towards enemy AI high but not so it feels unbeatable is difficult and the game in fairly open development in early access will show its teeth. Obviously getting the pathing and descison making of AI in an openworld where players can change every block is challenging but i believe it can be done. I am not sure what is going to happen when the ruleset opens up regarding bandits as they have more intel and can do lots of devastating actions without the need of magic. What does not get excepted for zombie to do within there descsion making capacity can be moved to the bandits or other events in the world so i dont think the diffculty will get any lower it just will shift between these. Every build will change the shift so i believe its going to get choppy on balancing the closer it gets to beta before it starts smoothing out. This is just my personal opion so dont take anything the wrong way it is just how i see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unholyjoe Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 I have to agree that developers will set a difficulty and that balance will tip toward the player once most have read a guide or watched a video on tips and tricks. Not sure if everyone was isolated from that they would work out how to circumvent and create tactical measures at an even rate or to a general effective level. I think it is right that developers will give the player a chance as its what they like to do, create a game that is rewarding to play. Setting the balance so the scales keep tipping from enemy AI to player is key to a good development team. You can make a great game and then make it balanced without that balance sesaw and weight towards the player and the player will play it until they beat it a few times and say great game but i have overplayed it. If the game keeps beating you now and again then it makes you want to try again. Has anyone investigated about tic tac toe (naughts and crosses) when you program an opponent ai, look it up if you are interested and have time. Making the frequency of this scale tip towards enemy AI high but not so it feels unbeatable is difficult and the game in fairly open development in early access will show its teeth. Obviously getting the pathing and descison making of AI in an openworld where players can change every block is challenging but i believe it can be done. I am not sure what is going to happen when the ruleset opens up regarding bandits as they have more intel and can do lots of devastating actions without the need of magic. What does not get excepted for zombie to do within there descsion making capacity can be moved to the bandits or other events in the world so i dont think the diffculty will get any lower it just will shift between these. Every build will change the shift so i believe its going to get choppy on balancing the closer it gets to beta before it starts smoothing out. This is just my personal opion so dont take anything the wrong way it is just how i see it. i agree with all you said there, and each time the pimps team changes something, that is exactly what happens... it keeps teetering and tottering and should not be looked at as tho the pimps messed up when they didnt... changes will happen and i dont always agree neither but the game has to appeal to the majority and not an individual. another aspect i would love to see changed is randomness (yeah i know that can only be so limited... random is not an undifined choice but an human made algorithm to follow), but random blood moon horde and not on every 7 days.... random air drops.... seriously the wondering horde is so to speak random so other events should be made random also. of course that needs to be an option because not everyone wants that either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaxTeller718 Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Modded Servers get less players (at least many admins claim that) Looks like many players understand under modded allways big mods that have not much left from vanilla And there i can speak only for myself. I am carefull too, because there is no oversight what is modded and i dont like these big mods that left nearly nothing from the Vanilla Gameplay, or the "wannabe" Mods from some Admins that have Gamebreaking edits. What we really could need would be a LARGE link to a webpage from the Server (for rules and Discussion, Contact Admins (maybe only a Thread on steam)) and a own Textfile you can read ingame where you can get a short overview about mods and Serverrules I totally agree. We need a way for people to be able to see what is modded. A link that opens a mini browser we admins can update is perfect. I don't know of any admins that complain about modded servers getting less players. If they do then that's not on the Pimps but the player to educate themselves and STOP being afraid of anything modded. I don't see anything Pimps can do to change that mindset. People are gonna bias no matter what. But I would LOVE a way for the listing to show with a click what mods are installed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackelmyer Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 I don't think people here understand common user behavior. SDX team seems to be in the right track but still. Modded server main reasons they're played less is: #1 - Laziness/Interest (effectively the same here) #2 - Intimidation Generally, people buy things, especially things they don't understand and don't want to, and expect them to just work. Most people don't have the energy or interest to go figure out how to install a mod much less troubleshoot installation problems. When it comes to complex processes, especially via computing, people get intimidated by complexity. Even today, with the millennial generation. Tech everywhere. Computers everywhere. And the vast majority aren't any better at using a PC than Paul, the guy who never gave up the mullet he grew in the 70's. So modded will always get less play. Which is why ultimately, Mods need to install as seamlessly as any DLC. To get any substantial traction. So no. Mods aren't going to keep this game flying off the shelf any time soon. Vanilla keeps it flying off the shelf. Mods maintain and prolong the web based hype. Vanilla = Direct Sales and sales maintenance Mods = Good advertising investments and longevity of web presence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaxTeller718 Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 I don't think people here understand common user behavior. SDX team seems to be in the right track but still. Modded server main reasons they're played less is: #1 - Laziness/Interest (effectively the same here) #2 - Intimidation Generally, people buy things, especially things they don't understand and don't want to, and expect them to just work. Most people don't have the energy or interest to go figure out how to install a mod much less troubleshoot installation problems. When it comes to complex processes, especially via computing, people get intimidated by complexity. Even today, with the millennial generation. Tech everywhere. Computers everywhere. And the vast majority aren't any better at using a PC than Paul, the guy who never gave up the mullet he grew in the 70's. So modded will always get less play. Which is why ultimately, Mods need to install as seamlessly as any DLC. To get any substantial traction. So no. Mods aren't going to keep this game flying off the shelf any time soon. Vanilla keeps it flying off the shelf. Mods maintain and prolong the web based hype. Vanilla = Direct Sales and sales maintenance Mods = Good advertising investments and longevity of web presence. I don't think anyone said mods WOULD keep the game flying off the shelf. Merely that there needs to be a way for people to view which mods are on a server so they know if they are getting into just a backpack mod or an entire overhaul. Sphereiis Launcher goes a LONG way in helping with that very thing though. Makes using multiple mods a piece of cake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgriffin1217 Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 I would like to see some bear traps added in as a trap option. A nice addition to go with spikes and barb wire. The recipe could be forged iron or steel, and springs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackelmyer Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 I don't think anyone said mods WOULD keep the game flying off the shelf. Merely that there needs to be a way for people to view which mods are on a server so they know if they are getting into just a backpack mod or an entire overhaul. Sphereiis Launcher goes a LONG way in helping with that very thing though. Makes using multiple mods a piece of cake. I thought Sphereiis was a part of the whole SDX team/group. But yeah. That's what I was referring to. And yeah there does need to be a way to see the mods used. From what I've seen from TFP, full mod support isn't fully implemented. So support for mods is probably still on the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doombringer101 Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Next 3 Hours everybody stop posting and look for his perfect Ship ^^ Btw i would take the Stargate USS George Hammond/Phِnix (no idea if it is inside the chart(Edit: its not with only around 200 meters lenght)) Its the newest earth ship from SG Universe Or the Voyager with the engine from the Phِnix Damn... none of the Abyss Class Battleships (WH40(30)K) are in the mix Ok I will take the Lexx then even if it looks like a dragonfly and its insides are kinda 'funky'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaxTeller718 Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 I thought Sphereiis was a part of the whole SDX team/group. But yeah. That's what I was referring to. And yeah there does need to be a way to see the mods used. From what I've seen from TFP, full mod support isn't fully implemented. So support for mods is probably still on the way. Spheres mod Launcher came before his work on SDx etc. The mod launcher has all the major xml mods in it plus some extras and also lets you add your own mod links. It creates a backup of the game, and installs the mods automatically to that backup and launches the game from it so it is an all in one. You can have Valmod, Walkers and anything else all installed and playable at any time if you like. Very user friendly. It is a GODSEND for server owners because they can have their users use the Launcher and every time they start the game the Launcher will auto update the player's files so they have the latest server files. Very easy to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackelmyer Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Spheres mod Launcher came before his work on SDx etc. The mod launcher has all the major xml mods in it plus some extras and also lets you add your own mod links. It creates a backup of the game, and installs the mods automatically to that backup and launches the game from it so it is an all in one. You can have Valmod, Walkers and anything else all installed and playable at any time if you like. Very user friendly. It is a GODSEND for server owners because they can have their users use the Launcher and every time they start the game the Launcher will auto update the player's files so they have the latest server files. Very easy to use. That's kind of my point that doesn't seem well understood. Average users will buy a product for the product alone. Not for the additions and modifications unless it's a product known for additions and modifications. The Lego Robot Kit (forget the name). Large population who want something to tweak and extend. Video Games. Large population of buy it, play it, maybe come back, forget about it. That's the bulk of consumers of software generally speaking outside of business software which has usage mandates. Even then, very little is forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonestarcanuck Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Are you sure that the Visitmap move your server on the modded list ? If this is so it is strange, or at least not expected by me @Royal no not that command the changes to any of the xml files like item.xml for example will put you on the modded list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackelmyer Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 @Royal no not that command the changes to any of the xml files like item.xml for example will put you on the modded list. Heck, if a player starts a MP game and doesn't use default settings I believe it goes on the modded list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonestarcanuck Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 @TFP - any chance we can get a minibike or similar with room for a 2nd player? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamida Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 i agree with all you said there, and each time the pimps team changes something, that is exactly what happens... it keeps teetering and tottering and should not be looked at as tho the pimps messed up when they didnt... changes will happen and i dont always agree neither but the game has to appeal to the majority and not an individual. another aspect i would love to see changed is randomness (yeah i know that can only be so limited... random is not an undifined choice but an human made algorithm to follow), but random blood moon horde and not on every 7 days.... random air drops.... seriously the wondering horde is so to speak random so other events should be made random also. of course that needs to be an option because not everyone wants that either. That may only be partially true. If 90% of users wanted zombie children and the devs don't (which they don't) then guess what, there won't be any zombie children. It would have to be something the majority of players want that the devs also want. It is their game...what they want is what goes in. They just have to decide how much of the player base they want to appeal to and still have the game be within the parameters of what they envisioned the game would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaxTeller718 Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 That's kind of my point that doesn't seem well understood. Average users will buy a product for the product alone. Not for the additions and modifications unless it's a product known for additions and modifications. The Lego Robot Kit (forget the name). Large population who want something to tweak and extend. Video Games. Large population of buy it, play it, maybe come back, forget about it. That's the bulk of consumers of software generally speaking outside of business software which has usage mandates. Even then, very little is forever. Oh I agree there. 100 percent. My comment was meant more for people who are skeptical of how hard playing the mods can be, not to entice them to try them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sillls Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 Oh, that's easy. There's no such thing. Just an idea being thrown around. If every idea someone on the team had was posted on the forum, you wouldn't have enough hours in the day to talk about them. Ah... Well in that case I think it's best just to drop the idea of having zombies spawn inside an underground player built base for now. There are so many other options that can be brought to the table. Lets look at them first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackelmyer Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 Man the more I play Fallout 4, the more I hope and hope 7D is gonna model a lot of behavior after those NPCs. They're not genius. But they're AI is pretty darn good. <3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7daysguy Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 can i please ask and no one get offended. Why do people really hate for their servers to show as modded... to me that seems to be the fair thing for both the player who wants to play on modded servers and for example me----- i dont play on other servers except testers servers when needed... but if i was looking for a server and looking in the server info a server doesnt show mods and i join it because its my preference and i find it has been modified... i expect to see that info from the get go. Anything modded throws up a big red flag for potential players. Most new players understandably want to experience the game in its vanilla form before jumping into something modded. The devs also understandably want players to experience the vanilla game before passing judgement on it and perhaps blaming the game for something done by a modder. The problem from an admin's point of view is that the game is not designed for play on large public servers and there are many tweaks and re-balances that an admin may want to create a better experience while leaving the majority of the game intact. Such as, reducing the loot respawn timer, creating invulnerable or re-growing loot containers, adding admin tools to the creative menu, increasing the amount of zombies on horde night, adding non-renewable items like engines and batteries to one of the existing loot tables, changing stack sizes, increasing the rarity of claim blocks...etc, etc etc. When a player goes looking for a modded server, it's because they are getting bored of the base game and want to experience something new. The types of mods that admins want are not going to provide that new experience. It makes the server less attractive for new players because of the stigma attached with being modded, AND it makes the server less desirable for players seeking modded server because they will join and think "What the hell, everything's the same". Server admins currently get around this by using third party tools such as Botman, Allocs server mods, Coppis additions, etc to change the functionality of the game without being classified as "modded". It's kind of funny that you can change the DLL of the game to add exotic functionality, but you can't change an xml setting from 60 minutes to 59 minutes without being dumped in the modded bin. For servers running mods that intentionally change the game in visible and obvious ways, it makes sense for them to sit in the modded category, and they may eventually gain a following from people saying "Hey check out this neat modded server, it's really different". But for most servers that just want to tweak the game for persistent open world multiplayer, being "modded" is a death sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaxTeller718 Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 Anything modded throws up a big red flag for potential players. Most new players understandably want to experience the game in its vanilla form before jumping into something modded. The devs also understandably want players to experience the vanilla game before passing judgement on it and perhaps blaming the game for something done by a modder. The problem from an admin's point of view is that the game is not designed for play on large public servers and there are many tweaks and re-balances that an admin may want to create a better experience while leaving the majority of the game intact. Such as, reducing the loot respawn timer, creating invulnerable or re-growing loot containers, adding admin tools to the creative menu, increasing the amount of zombies on horde night, adding non-renewable items like engines and batteries to one of the existing loot tables, changing stack sizes, increasing the rarity of claim blocks...etc, etc etc. When a player goes looking for a modded server, it's because they are getting bored of the base game and want to experience something new. The types of mods that admins want are not going to provide that new experience. It makes the server less attractive for new players because of the stigma attached with being modded, AND it makes the server less desirable for players seeking modded server because they will join and think "What the hell, everything's the same". Server admins currently get around this by using third party tools such as Botman, Allocs server mods, Coppis additions, etc to change the functionality of the game without being classified as "modded". It's kind of funny that you can change the DLL of the game to add exotic functionality, but you can't change an xml setting from 60 minutes to 59 minutes without being dumped in the modded bin. For servers running mods that intentionally change the game in visible and obvious ways, it makes sense for them to sit in the modded category, and they may eventually gain a following from people saying "Hey check out this neat modded server, it's really different". But for most servers that just want to tweak the game for persistent open world multiplayer, being "modded" is a death sentence. Unfortunately changing the game from 60 minutes to 59 minutes IS changing the base game and is NOT what the devs intended as vanilla so I don't see why you are stressing how that shouldn't be put in the modded category. If it's not a setting in the base game and you change you have modded the game into something the devs didn't intend, no matter how small your change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackelmyer Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 Unfortunately changing the game from 60 minutes to 59 minutes IS changing the base game and is NOT what the devs intended as vanilla so I don't see why you are stressing how that shouldn't be put in the modded category. If it's not a setting in the base game and you change you have modded the game into something the devs didn't intend, no matter how small your change. I dunno. I think I may be on 7daysguy side on this one. Basic game settings are offered in the vanilla game. As such, their a part of the vanilla experience. Developers put those settings in so players could change the default vanilla experience. Mods, typically and traditionally, change game mechanics and/or content outside what you can do via game settings. Hence, truly modifying the game itself. The server browser and start up categorization I think is something that TFP probably wants to enhance anyway. Ideally, a standard game tab with filters and showing the game setting tweaks a server did. With some search capability on game settings. Then a Modded tab that is for genuinely modded games. Custom blocks.xml, items.xml, etc. Custom DLL's. But generally, in later game designs, whatever game loads customizations from a mods folder goes into a Mods tab would possibly be a common standard. I'd like to see TFP, break out the blocks, items, and so on files so mods can host their own versions of these files that add to the content provided by the core game. With an option in a modders file set to denote a vanilla Item ID as removed from the game or extend an item or block of vanilla. So no more modding vanilla xml files. You simply build your own with custom content with the same xml files or tweaks to vanilla IDs. Vanilla loads first, mods load last, first come first serve in load sequence. And wallah. Whatever is loading content from the this "Mods" folder becomes a modded game. An ability to hook in custom DLL's would be awesome too as part of it. Long story short... Mods as we know them today may be completely non functional compared to what and how things are modded in the future. But game settings denoting mod status? Vanilla game settings? Meh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7daysguy Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 Unfortunately changing the game from 60 minutes to 59 minutes IS changing the base game and is NOT what the devs intended as vanilla so I don't see why you are stressing how that shouldn't be put in the modded category. If it's not a setting in the base game and you change you have modded the game into something the devs didn't intend, no matter how small your change. Technically anything you do is changing the base game, but some of these changes get special exemption such as the case of drop all / none / belt on death or logout. Or kill all / firends / strangers / none. Claim block zone size 1-999? Claim multiplier 0-999? Feral zombies... These settings fundamentally alter the game more than changing the day cycle from 60 to 59 minutes, which funnily enough has been a setting that TFP themselves have changed several times now. If you think the devs vision is that exact in detail then I think you will be mistaken, the game is constantly evolving and being rebalanced - they just don't want people screwing it up. Importantly I am not blaming the devs for the way things are, I understand the reasoning and I am just describing the issues from the various perspectives. I don't have a solution for these problems either as changing 1 value in an xml can completely break the game. My only suggestion would be to give us a greater range of "approved" changes that are not considered mods, but of course that would take a lot of developer time and effort and the game is not even complete, so I'm not begging for it either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janna3921 Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 I know for me that mods are confusing. My experience on computers has been writing college papers, playing match three games to take a break from trying to figure out the stupid sadistic, I mean statistic class assignments. My first real game was Sims 3 and I was on a forum (not EA official forum) a lot there, just as I am here. It was constantly stated that mods would cause nothing but problems, it wasn't seen as acceptable. Custom content for clothes, sims characters and modding to change this or that was always touted as you don't do that, not if you know what is good for you. Add in that when there was a patch you had to remove the mod(s), uninstall the game and whatever you had bought and added, then reinstall it and when the mod was updated add it back in. Seemed too much work and I didn't understand any of it. Here, I am learning more about what mods are, how they affect the game and I will admit that I am still leery of them. At age 62, computer are still a mystery to me and I just don't feel comfortable in adding mods, and definitely don't feel confident that I can do the modding. That is given to my son to do for me. But, I no longer see them as a threat to my computer, as the evil creation that will infect my computer with some nasty virus that will destroy it. I don't play on a server so that isn't a problem for me, but if I were to play on one, I wouldn't mind that it was modded, as long as the people running the server know what they are doing and can help me if I have problems. Right now, I am waiting to see what is going to happen with a16.4, is it going to be fixed of all the bugs and go stable, or will we have to just wait until a17 is ready for release? I'm back to not being allowed to play until I learn how to use the Steam controller as the way I play on my keyboard has put my shoulder in a bind and is affecting how I use it. Vanilla was fun and a great learning experience, but I like the difference of Random Gen, and in watching some modded games such as War of the Walkers, it looks like loads of fun and I later on I do plan to give it a try, it has 72 slots in the backpack . Not starvation, no, spiders, so no starvation. I don't know what can and will help to change attitudes, confusion and suspicion of mods, of the changing of a game so that things are added or taken out is not a horrible thing and you shouldn't play on a modded game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenixshade35 Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 I have not tried mods yet, though i want too, but i love tossing ideas around for items and monsters in the game, this one I think is possibly on the table, Roland, do you think the designer on the group or madmole himself is thinking about extra sinks in the game, much like the new bathtubs he showcased, as well what if we had some paint jobs like blood on the walls? I think it would seem, interesting to venture through some POI's and see the walls with blood spatters on them and blood that has been moved down or sideways to simulate someone sliding down a wall with bloody hands or the zombies walking past a wall and leaving a blood smear along the wall. What does everyone think of those ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazz Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 As for mods, I'd say that there should only be one list for servers to not "ban the modded servers to second page" and there should be a lot more space to describe the server, even including a working link to a website... and the link ability will likely get taken out as soon as purveyors of malware discover this avenue. Right now it's just hit and miss and the split is meaningless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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