Standard Ammo Vs HP

[OneManStanding]

Help me out here... is HP ammo actually worth it? My buddy has been making HP ammo almost exclusively, but it costs an extra bullet tip (effectively halving our lead) in order to do just a couple of points more damage. I know a little difference over time mounts up, but it seems to me we might as well just make more regular ammo - quantity over quality. We switched to horde nights every night and both have M60s, just to give you some context.

[Adam the Waster]

29 minutes ago, OneManStanding said:

Help me out here... is HP ammo actually worth it? My buddy has been making HP ammo almost exclusively, but it costs an extra bullet tip (effectively halving our lead) in order to do just a couple of points more damage. I know a little difference over time mounts up, but it seems to me we might as well just make more regular ammo - quantity over quality. We switched to horde nights every night and both have M60s, just to give you some context.

Not really imo 

 

The bonus damage isn't worth the cost. And the damage isn't even that much

[theFlu]

Probably not really worth it. It's a minor increase, the random health on zeds does mean it's roughly as "useful" as the damage difference actually is, but the bullet damage difference isn't the whole story. Just to understand the actual damage effects, you'd have to hop on a test world and shoot at a few zeds..

 

Things like decap chance are also tied to the damage, more damage => higher chance, so even in there the high damage does help.

 

I guess the real question is, how are your horde nights?

Are you being flooded with zeds, or just waiting for the next group => do you actually need the DPS?

Is your ammo box overflowing or permanently empty? Is there even a need for crafting the ammo in the first place? ..

 

I tend to run a surplus of all ammo types unless I'm sporting an M60 and am having an untypically wasteful day. I don't really need to make any 9mm => what I make, might as well be of a different type as you don't really get the specials from anywhere. If I'm making a special type of ammo myself, I'm always making AP, mainly for the multitarget function, but the boost against demos helps too...

Edited August 28, 2023 by theFlu (see edit history)

[Syphon583]

Aside from the slightly more damage per round, AP rounds also have a percentage of armor penetration (hence the AP). It doesn't matter what gun you use, if you have AP rounds, they will penetrate armor better, and many later-game targets do have armor. If that isn't worth the extra lead (which you will use anyway with the more bullets it will take to kill the target) then roll with normal rounds.

 

What might change your opinion is dependent on if you are running with rifles and perked into Penetrator. The Penetrator perk allows greater armor penetration regardless of ammo type using any firearm or archery weapon. Additionally, if you are using rifles (hunting, marksman or sniper) with AP rounds you can penetrate targets and blocks. Fully-perked and you will penetrate 3 targets or 1000hp blocks with a single bullet.

 

In my last run, I was perked into rifles and I was still clearing entire hordes on day 77 blood moons with very little ammo expended (and the only traps I had were electric fences). Killing 3 zombies at once with a single bullet is very satisfying.

[BFT2020]

I don't craft it, but if I am running low on ammo, I will buy HP.  I typically save AP ammo for horde nights, and 9mm ball ammo for turrets.

 

If I got quite a bit of HP ammo saved up, I will use it for POI / trader mission runs for the above reason.

[Adam the Waster]

What they should do for HP rounds Is make them incinerdary rounds 

 

Bonus damage, fire damage, breaks limbs easier 

 

Just a thought 

[OneManStanding]

5 hours ago, theFlu said:

"I guess the real question is, how are your horde nights?"

Somewhere about night 88. It's non-stop right up to 4am, we've got radioactives and bombers. We recently LOST our ammo box, to birds we think, so we replaced it with an iron safe and are building back up. So far the bigger threat to the castle I built - I wanted something which would be epic for the zombies to bring down - has been our own stupidity.

[Old Crow]

IMO, not worth it. The only thing that even makes AP ammo worth it is the penetration and armor reduction - The damage increase is just too small.

[binf_shinana]

(銃の攻撃力 + 弾の攻撃力) * 品質補正 = 攻撃力
上記の式により銃の攻撃力は決定されます

A21以降、品質補正は 品質 * 5% と非常に小さくなっています。
また同時に、HP弾のわずかな威力の向上は、高Tier銃によるダメージ補正に簡単に埋もれるほど小さな補正になってしまっています。
高Tierの銃に攻撃力補正がなく、連射力だけが上がる仕組みであれば、多少は使える場面があったかもしれません。

 

(Google Translation)

(gun attack power + bullet attack power) * quality modifier = attack power
The above formula determines the attack power of the gun

Since A21 the quality correction is very small, quality * 5%.
At the same time, the slight increase in power of HP bullets is a small correction that can easily be buried in the damage correction of high tier guns.
If high tier guns didn't have attack power compensation and only increased fire rate, there might have been some situations where it could be used.

[meilodasreh]

I have never bothered with these different ammo types.

Yes, HP will deal a noticeable amount more damage to armored zombie types like soldiers.

But situations where you can make effective use of it are rare to nonexistent.

 

In oh-sh!$ situations where you are swat-ambushed by many zombies (which is mostly the case in A21) you won't (have the time to) consider "oh this is an armored one amongst them, wait, I will change ammo to HP...oh what a shame, now two unarmored ones went ahead of him, I will change ammo type back again...)

More or less the same for hordenights of course, although there might be waves with more/mostly armored ones, that may be considerable.

 

The only situation it might come in handy imo may be single-picking sleepers, but even for these cases a bow/crossbow might be the better choice because of their increased sneak multiplier.

[warmer]

Wear and tear on weapons should be factored in. More damage=less bullets=less weapon durability damage. 

 

Needing to repair your AK mid bloodmoon horde can be the difference between life and death.

[Old Crow]

21 hours ago, warmer said:

Wear and tear on weapons should be factored in. More damage=less bullets=less weapon durability damage. 

 

Needing to repair your AK mid bloodmoon horde can be the difference between life and death.

 

It was prior to A20, but was then removed. AP and HP rounds no longer cause extra wear on the weapon.

[Syphon583]

12 minutes ago, Old Crow said:

 

It was prior to A20, but was then removed. AP and HP rounds no longer cause extra wear on the weapon.

I think this makes the point Warmer was making even stronger. While the amount of degradation per bullet is the same regardless of ammo type, you should get more kills with AP rounds before before you need to repair the weapon.

[OneManStanding]

2 hours ago, Syphon583 said:

I think this makes the point Warmer was making even stronger...

It still eats double the amount of bullet tips to make, though, effectively halving the ammo count.

[binf_shinana]

2023/8/30に午前9時22分、ウォーマーは言った:

Wear and tear on weapons should be factored in. More damage=less bullets=less weapon durability damage. 

 

Needing to repair your AK mid bloodmoon horde can be the difference between life and death.

3秒のリペア時間に耐えられないホードベースの構築を見直すべきです。
もしくは予備の銃を持ってきてください。

AP弾は解体者対策に有用ですが、HP弾は今は有用ではありません（議論では今、そこが混同されています）

 

また、弾丸のコストを議論する場合、通常の弾丸は簡単にたくさん拾えることも考慮しなければならず、よりコスト格差は開きます。

 

(google translation)

We should reevaluate the construction of hoard bases that cannot withstand the 3 second repair time.
Or bring a spare gun.

AP bullets are useful against demolitionists, but HP bullets are not useful right now (this is currently being confused in the discussion).

 

Also, when discussing ammo cost, you have to take into account that regular ammo can easily be picked up in large numbers, further widening the cost disparity.

Edited August 31, 2023 by binf_shinana (see edit history)

[OneManStanding]

8 hours ago, binf_shinana said:

また、弾丸のコストを議論する場合、通常の弾丸は簡単にたくさん拾えることも考慮しなければならず、よりコスト格差は開きます。

 

Also, when discussing ammo cost, you have to take into account that regular ammo can easily be picked up in large numbers, further widening the cost disparity.

We've switched to Horde Nights every night. We get a little amount of ammo from the bags the zombies drop, but not enough, and we need to make it ourselves.

Edited August 31, 2023 by OneManStanding
Pressed return too soon :) (see edit history)

[Krougal]

At least you can find ammo! They need to add robotic turret ammo to loot (I guess I should mod that)

As an int build with 2 hungry turrets to feed, mining lead has become my life.

[warmer]

19 hours ago, Old Crow said:

 

It was prior to A20, but was then removed. AP and HP rounds no longer cause extra wear on the weapon.

That's not what I mean. You get more total damage out of HP rounds between repairs.

[meilodasreh]

Wasn't it that AP ammo does more damage against armored targets but actually less than even normal ammo against unarmored ones,

and HP was most effective against unarmored, but does less damage (than normal) against armored?

At least that's how I remember it, and therefore never used the different types.

Because you don't always get more total damage out of HP rounds, it heavily depends on how many zombies of the "corresponding" type you hit.

And reloading/changing ammo type and/or weapons for the right ammo and then "cherrypick" single zombies especially out of a group does have a too heavy impact on damage output over time.

 

I'd be happy if someone could clarify this a bit more, I have to admit my info/thoughts/decision might be from an outdated alpha and stuff was redesigned til now, I just did never reconsider.

Edited September 1, 2023 by meilodasreh (see edit history)

[Syphon583]

On 8/30/2023 at 6:54 PM, OneManStanding said:

It still eats double the amount of bullet tips to make, though, effectively halving the ammo count.

Considering lead is mineable and brass is not, I've never seen it as a disadvantage. To each their own, though. The big thing people seem to be forgetting is the penetration factor. While the overall damage increase is a small percentage, the ammos ability to penetrate armor and multiple targets if adequately perked is reason enough to sacrifice double the lead. For me and my playstyle, AP Ammo is definitely worth it. Once fully perked, I'm regularly killing 3 targets with a single bullet where with normal ammo, it would have taken 3+.

Edited September 1, 2023 by Syphon583 (see edit history)

[Syphon583]

3 hours ago, meilodasreh said:

Wasn't it that AP ammo does more damage against armored targets but actually less than even normal ammo against unarmored ones

If that's the case, there's nothing in the game that explains that. And it would be pretty stupid, tbh. Someone who is more familiar with the code would have to answer that, but I've never felt there is a damage penalty for using AP ammo and the stats and description clearly indicate an overall damage increase.

[Riamus]

35 minutes ago, Syphon583 said:

Considering lead is mineable and brass is not, I've never seen it as a disadvantage. To each their own, though. The big thing people seem to be forgetting is the penetration factor. While the overall damage increase is a small percentage, the ammos ability to penetrate armor and multiple targets if adequately perked is reason enough to sacrifice double the lead. For me and my playstyle, AP Ammo is definitely worth it. Once fully perked, I'm regularly killing 3 targets with a single bullet where with normal ammo, it would have taken 3+.

I guess the question is what your average kills are... are you maintaining a kill average of over 2 zombies per bullet (or perhaps better to say 2 hits per bullet as that's a better indication)?  Even if you regularly hit 3 at a time, your average could be far lower because it's more common to have them not lined up except on horde night (depending on your base).  If you're only using it for horde night with a base designed to line them up, then it would be more useful to you.  If you're using it all the time, it is likely a waste of the bullet tips.

 

As far as lead vs brass, I find plenty of ammo that I rarely have to craft it, so brass isn't an issue.  That means basically no time to craft regular ammo vs a lot of time to mine lead to craft turret ammo.  In short, I no longer use the robotic turrets because of this.

[Syphon583]

10 minutes ago, Riamus said:

I guess the question is what your average kills are... are you maintaining a kill average of over 2 zombies per bullet (or perhaps better to say 2 hits per bullet as that's a better indication)?  Even if you regularly hit 3 at a time, your average could be far lower because it's more common to have them not lined up except on horde night (depending on your base).  If you're only using it for horde night with a base designed to line them up, then it would be more useful to you.  If you're using it all the time, it is likely a waste of the bullet tips.

 

As far as lead vs brass, I find plenty of ammo that I rarely have to craft it, so brass isn't an issue.  That means basically no time to craft regular ammo vs a lot of time to mine lead to craft turret ammo.  In short, I no longer use the robotic turrets because of this.

That's a great point and I should clarify. I almost exclusively use AP rounds on horde nights where I have designed my base in a way that lines up the zombies for optimal headshots. On those nights, I use very little ammo as I am regularly taking out multiple targets with a single shot. Of course, when armored targets like demos roll up, those will take multiple shots. I've never done the math, but I'm willing to bet that I still end up expending less bullet tips as I otherwise would have using regular ammo.

 

Outside of horde nights, I stick with regular 7.62 unless I have an insane surplus of lead which usually happens by late game and I'm regularly clearing out T5s.

 

Again, it works great for that playstyle. I'm not arguing that all players should be using it exclusively.

[Krougal]

12 minutes ago, Riamus said:

I guess the question is what your average kills are... are you maintaining a kill average of over 2 zombies per bullet (or perhaps better to say 2 hits per bullet as that's a better indication)?  Even if you regularly hit 3 at a time, your average could be far lower because it's more common to have them not lined up except on horde night (depending on your base).  If you're only using it for horde night with a base designed to line them up, then it would be more useful to you.  If you're using it all the time, it is likely a waste of the bullet tips.

 

As far as lead vs brass, I find plenty of ammo that I rarely have to craft it, so brass isn't an issue.  That means basically no time to craft regular ammo vs a lot of time to mine lead to craft turret ammo.  In short, I no longer use the robotic turrets because of this.

Yeah, I'm sick of mining lead, there is very little in loot anymore. OTOH, the pair of robotic turrets absolutely shred @%$#, and I have taken to using the AP ammo lately, since I seem to still get plenty of iron out of my lead mines. I can walk into an infestation POI, plop down the turrets and go about looting while they do all the work. Horde night I can also be pretty lazy as long as I keep reloading them, but I go through boxes and boxes of ammo then.

 

Otherwise I find plenty of ammo and brass, but the point still stands that you cannot mine brass, so it is a hard limit; most of us are probably just not hitting it in A21. It was a real thing in earlier alphas.

[Uncle Al]

4 hours ago, meilodasreh said:

Wasn't it that AP ammo does more damage against armored targets but actually less than even normal ammo against unarmored ones,

and HP was most effective against unarmored, but does less damage (than normal) against armored?

At least that's how I remember it, and therefore never used the different types.

Because you don't always get more total damage out of HP rounds, it heavily depends on how many zombies of the "corresponding" type you hit.

And reloading/changing ammo type and/or weapons for the right ammo and then "cherrypick" single zombies especially out of a group does have a too heavy impact on damage output over time.

 

I'd be happy if someone could clarify this a bit more, I have to admit my info/thoughts/decision might be from an outdated alpha and stuff was redesigned til now, I just did never reconsider.

This used to be the case but it was rebalanced, which is why 'Hollow Point' got renamed to 'Hi Power' for clarity.

 

Hi Power ammo is now all round better than normal, as it does 5% more damage and is no worse against armour. AP ammo is better than Normal or Hi Power as it does 10% more damage than Normal, gets enhanced armour penetration, penetrates at least one target and gets extra target penetration when fired from a rifle (not an assault rifle) if you're perked into Penetrator.

 

As far as I can see it's now a pretty simple progression of AP is better than HP which is better than Normal, if you ignore manufacturing costs.

 

I generally can't see much point in HP ammo but as lead is usually your most abundant resource when ammo crafting, it might be worth it occasionally. HP takes twice the lead to craft compared to Normal, but doesn't cost more brass or gunpowder.