Rethink Triggers for Zombie Spawns

[Riamus]

Please rethink the use of triggers for zombie spawns.  I get the idea behind it... you want to have a way to make the spawns happen in a way to jump scare players.  I'm sure there is a way to do that without doing it this way if you really feel the need.  The problem with triggers is that anything at all that breaks that trigger - not using the trigger, not going past the trigger point, breaking the trigger, etc. - will prevent the zombies from spawning and cause the quest to be impossible to complete.  There should never be a way to accidentally cause a quest to not be possible to complete and breaking a trigger point or bypassing a trigger point is extremely easy.  Players often will not follow the intended path and they should not have to in order to get the zombies to spawn.

 

If you absolutely feel that it is necessary to use triggers this way, then please at least make a backup way to trigger the zombies.  Ideally where you just enter the spawn location.  You can update the game to have a sleeper volume area that has an internal area that will trigger them no matter what and then have that area inside where you'd normally use a trigger to spawn them.  For example, let's say you have a 10x10 room.  You want to use a trigger to spawn the zombies when a player presses a button that is 2m inside the room.  Have a backup area that is 5m into the room and covers the remainder of the room that will spawn the sleepers even if the player doesn't press the button.  This backup option will prevent situations where zombies don't spawn because the player didn't do what you thought they would do or go where you thought they would go and prevent wasted quests that aren't possible to complete or that require someone to find a walkthrough for the POI that tells them exactly what to do to get all the zombies to spawn, which should absolutely never be necessary in this game.  That's just one idea off the top of my head but with a little thought, I'm sure you can come up with something that will accomplish what you want without using triggers in the current way you're using them and leaving people unable to complete their quests.

[Lokeus]

Agree. Think about sleepers which aren`t to identify too easy, maybe more similar to the corpses on the ground, without "breathing" animation when in "standby". According to this meshing up the textures much more so player never will be able to say if it is dead body or a sleeper.

Use more locks: Locked wardrobes cannot be opened so stealthy player won`t be able to just open it and shoot at the sleeper while in sleep mode. Let him wake up and

let them make suprise attacks while lock picking or destroying such places containing zombies. Falling down zombies are not too bad, they are already in the game and suprises me often enough, well done here. Think also about breaking out zombies which come out from blocks which are solid and no player expect any enemy inside, such like "trap blocks" like cabins or beds. Insert random triggers: After opening x loot chests spawn horde outside which will set course straight onto the house, also random events inside the POI could spawn and attract zombies outside. Stealthy players will cry a lot about these suggestions, but i think you can make a good overhaul for them too, to let them become invisible better while hiding in some wardrobe, maybe under a bed or things like this.

But of course triggers and events are one thing in singeplayer and completely another one in multiplayer. Will be difficult to get it well balanced.

Atm clearing a POI is just a bit to calcuable

[Gideon]

How many times have we come across a closet or cupboard, and said "Okay, probably a zombie box. Shoot it with an arrow and we'll clear it."

How many times have we looked at a room and said, "I bet the floor collapses. You hang back, I'll go in, and when it does you back me up."

How many times have we come across a room with loot in it, particularly the treasure room, and said, "This is an encounter room, lets switch gear real quick and do a different tactic."

 

EVERY SINGLE TIME WE CLEAR A POI. That's how many times. 100% of the time.

 

There is no real surprise in the POIs any more. Just set pieces that you clear, each with a particular tactic. As it doesn't even spawn zombies outside the immediate area, you can go as loud as you like right outside an encounter that would be packed, and have no fear of a swarm descending on you. No need to ever adjust your tactics due to the situation in the area.

 

Clearing POIs is very formulaic at this point.

[RhinoW]

Zombies don't start spawned in for performance reasons, that's why you can shoot outside and only the ones that are spawned will react.

 

With that said, I do belive there are problems inside of the buildings, and some could be fixed by having more intuitive reactions and more randomness to it.

 

Hidden sleepers should have a chance to do something whenever the player is nearby and not right in front of them. There should be wider triggers that determine that the player is there, and then spawns the sleepers, rather than spawning the zombies in an alerted state.

 

Zombies should never spawn alerted near the player, and sleeper activations should be:

 

1. Noise trigger - If the player is within this area an makes noise above a certain threshold, all sleepers connected to it are awoken. Or if a wandering zombie detects the player inside this very same trigger.

2. Random chance - If the player is within an area, there should be a chance a sleeper will break out of their closet and become roamers, forcing the player to break line of sight to avoid alerting the other sleepers.

3. Triggered alert - Essentially what we have now at some final rooms, pass a certain block and all hell breaks loose. But by all means, the zombies should already be spawned in. And I do belive this one shouldn't be used too often.

 

Zombies should only spawn alerted if:

 

1. The player makes noise in a specific noise trigger, spawning an optional horde that comes from the ouside of the PoI or from a place deep enough into the PoI that allows the player to at aleast hear them coming.

 

2. It's the final room and whatever action you're going to do would surely have zombies coming to it (ex: that hidden test chamber beneath a mansion), but again, if they're too close, they should already be spawned (ex: small house on the top floor).

 

 

But besides spawns and alerts, there's some things that would be good to have:

 

 

- Directional sleeper sounds, like very faint breaths, even more faint if they're inside a closet, requiring you to almost facehug the closet. And to be fair, more idles sounds overall for the zombies, they're very quiet.

- Openable closet doors, instead of those breakable plates. It doesn't make sense that I can waste an arrow to break something, I should be forced to open it if I want to check what's near. But I also should be able to sneak past it, making it a trap for later when I return to loot with full confidence.

 

 

Better and more realistic sleeper spawns:

 

- One or two wandering "sleepers", essentially scouts that would make stealth more difficult.

- Removal of standing sleepers in the middle of nowhere (aka free XP zombies). Seriously, these add nothing and just look ridiculous, the only standing sleepers should be hidden in closets and enclosured spaces, never out in the open.

- Removal of triggered "alerts" on things like bathrooms and closets, instead, keep the zombie there, force me to have to take a look or trust that there's nothing because I didn't open it. I can tell that those bathroom zombies would be much more effective if they didn't trigger as soon as I entered the bathroom door, but rather waited for me to make the slightest noise upon opening a container or opening the toilet door to find them there.

 - Sleeper blocks, like an upside down couch that has a zombie below it, a 1.5 blocks tall vent that breaks and has a zombie crawling out of it (since they can now do that)...etc

 

[Syphon583]

There has been talk of "wandering" sleepers, which if implemented properly should help alleviate this issue. It also comes down to POI designers being more creative with where they hide the zombies. I 100% agree that the zombie closet concept is grossly overused.

[The_Great_Sephiroth]

My issue is that I go stealth. So I enter an area, don't step on anything, but five or six ferals drop and charge me...   while my stealth meter is at 0 or 1. I don't mind that once in a blue moon, but it happens a LOT in A21. It destroys my stealth playstyle and I wind up going Conan on them.

Edited June 26, 2023 by The_Great_Sephiroth (see edit history)

[stallionsden]

2 hours ago, The_Great_Sephiroth said:

My issue is that I go stealth. So I enter an area, don't step on anything, but five or six ferals drop and charge me...   while my stealth meter is at 0 or 1. I don't mind that once in a blue moon, but it happens a LOT in A21. It destroys my stealth playstyle and I wind up going Conan on them.

You entered an attack volume simple. 

 

A volume introduced as a counter to stealth each play style has a counter reaction.

 

I and another player I know can stealth attack volumes to. So ....

[hiemfire]

17 minutes ago, stallionsden said:

each play style has a counter reaction.

List them.

[zztong]

11 hours ago, Gideon said:

Clearing POIs is very formulaic at this point.

 

Yes, kind of like being hooked on Conan books, Harlequin romance novels, or in my case 20+ seasons of Law & Order.

 

5 hours ago, Syphon583 said:

I 100% agree that the zombie closet concept is grossly overused.

 

I think of it as part of the 7D2D genre. While it probably makes more sense that people unknowingly got infected, hid in an armoire, and then transformed, I think it it more entertaining to think that zombies draw comfort from hanging out in furniture. Put that on the list with zombies who hide in ceilings or there still being electricity in houses.

[The_Great_Sephiroth]

2 hours ago, stallionsden said:

You entered an attack volume simple. 

 

A volume introduced as a counter to stealth each play style has a counter reaction.

 

I and another player I know can stealth attack volumes to. So ....

That is the ONLY counter I have ever seen. How do you counter playing Conan The Barbarian? 50 rads or something extreme? No, I do other styles as well, but I love stealth and just because I am in an area does not mean that everything in the world knows I am there and is suddenly raging to kill me. If I step on trash, open something, or shoot a gun, sure, but don't attack because I exist in this area, it ruins the fun and does not jump-scare me, it aggravates me that I specced into stealth to max and cannot use it where it counts.

[zztong]

5 minutes ago, The_Great_Sephiroth said:

That is the ONLY counter I have ever seen. How do you counter playing Conan The Barbarian? 50 rads or something extreme? No, I do other styles as well, but I love stealth and just because I am in an area does not mean that everything in the world knows I am there and is suddenly raging to kill me. If I step on trash, open something, or shoot a gun, sure, but don't attack because I exist in this area, it ruins the fun and does not jump-scare me, it aggravates me that I specced into stealth to max and cannot use it where it counts.

 

I get it. As a stealth player too, I have similar sympathies. I want things to make sense too, even if I have to learn some "game reality." I like stealth as a style of play and found the Feral Sense feature to be too much.

 

I don't mind being caught in circumstances. Using Feral Sense as an example, I'd think it would be cool if the amount of Feral Sense went along with how foggy the weather was or perhaps the phase of the moon.

 

Just crossing a threshold into a zombie volume isn't what I have in mind. But that is a tool in the POI designer's bag of tricks. Where I think we're learning is what works and what doesn't across the player base. Some players love extreme challenges, others don't. Stealth players might be more into a kind of puzzle. I generally feel good when I can stealth 80% of a POI and I appreciate it more if I had to work at it. I don't mind being able to "crouch and go" my way through a place, but I like it better if I know I have to take extra care to avoid the lights, anticipate an ambush, etc. A POI where I'm constantly having a mini-horde jump out at me means the best tactic is bringing a friend or two.

 

I've got a POI in mind to design maybe this week. It's a small place. Once you get to the end, I'd like to experiment with having zombies "show up" outside, as if they have wandered in. I can do this by activating volumes outside of the place when you get to the final room. What I'm not sure about is if they will know where you are. I need to experiment with it. I don't really want them to come charging into the building after you, but I think it would be neat for the player to think "uh oh, I'm surrounded."

 

I know some designers have talked about "well maybe the zombies are in the air ducts and you missed them as you went through." I get the design idea. I think I'd also like a chance to detect and deal with them.

 

Please, keep talking this stuff out. I know POI designers are reading these threads.

[The_Great_Sephiroth]

Oh, I know they read it, and I don't mind this kind of surprise attack once in a while. The issue I have is that it's used a lot, and makes the skill I spent ages speccing into useless. Can I resort to a sledgehammer and/or gun? Sure! That makes it easy though, but I must admit I love knocking a zombie head across the map in A21 when the hammer collides with their skull! I am not upset with the change as I AM playing the experimental branch on purpose. Just giving my two cents.

 

I have not tried feral sense in A21 yet. I'll give it a go sometime and respec if I dislike it.

[Riamus]

Hm... well, this wasn't where the thread was intended to go.  Lol. 

 

Just to clarify, I'm not referring to how the zombies trigger to attack the player, and it isn't about stealth.  The thread was regarding how using these triggers as the way to spawn in zombies can and does fail miserably when the trigger is not tripped or gets destroyed or whatever and then makes it so you cannot complete the quest.  That's the main issue, imo.

 

I absolutely agree that the zombies appearing from nowhere in an empty room right behind you (not having dropped out of a ceiling) is pretty ridiculous, even if you ignore the negative impact that has on stealth players.  But if it was only that, players could find a way to get past these situations and complete the quest.  The main problem is when you can't complete a quest because the trigger fails.  You should always be able to complete a clear quest regardless if you've passed by a specific trigger point or if you pressed a specific button or opened a specific door or whatever triggers are used.  Causing quests to fail is a very bad design situation.  The issues with stealth and whether or not the zombies appearing out of nowhere makes even the slightest bit of sense are important as well but at least with those you can complete the quest.

 

Still a good discussion, though.  But I think looking at the way these triggers are failing if there's no backup to a trigger in order to spawn the zombies that you need to kill is important. 

[zztong]

6 hours ago, Riamus said:

The thread was regarding how using these triggers as the way to spawn in zombies can and does fail miserably when the trigger is not tripped or gets destroyed or whatever and then makes it so you cannot complete the quest.  That's the main issue, imo.

 

Ah, my apologies. I have experienced this. I've also experienced normal zombie volumes not spawning zombies in places where I encounter them. So, yeh, I can end up running around a POI making lots of noise trying to get it to reveal itself. The "hints" feature is supposed to help there, but sometimes there's too many unfound volumes, like two volumes when the hint is set to kick in with 1 remaining.

[Lokeus]

15 hours ago, The_Great_Sephiroth said:

My issue is that I go stealth. So I enter an area, don't step on anything, but five or six ferals drop and charge me...   while my stealth meter is at 0 or 1. I don't mind that once in a blue moon, but it happens a LOT in A21. It destroys my stealth playstyle and I wind up going Conan on them.

 

I ve also seen the video in another thread about T5 POIs in A21 and broken stealth. The point is... meanwhile it is valid to ask if "stealth" should really be a way to play in an horde survival crafting game. You take big advantage when you can play out your stealth ability but in fact - even though zombies shouldn`t be of any big intelligence - THEY should be in advantage, considering that they are hunting for your flesh and shouldn`t even have to really hear or see you. I wouldn`t be too sad if stealth would be removed from the game. Though mechanics for tricking zombies should be expansed. In close situation the amount of possibilities to really trick them is quite limited by now. Give player more chances to defend passively and kill stealth, i think that would be a fair solution.

Just thinking of your favorite movies, player could tie them, really break their mouth so they can`t bite anymore and so they become a markable smaller hazard to the player. Would love that. split off their legs so they become crawlers or do some even harder knockbacks which stun them double or triple time, there are many ways to compensate lack of stealth

[RhinoW]

16 hours ago, stallionsden said:

You entered an attack volume simple. 

 

A volume introduced as a counter to stealth each play style has a counter reaction.

 

I and another player I know can stealth attack volumes to. So ....

 

They were not made with the intent to "counter" stealth, they were literally made because of limitations and performance reasons. And no, you can't "stealth" an attack volume, unless you have meta knowledge (knowledge that you wouldn't get by finding it out intuitively, but rather from outside the game or testing in a technical experiment) and decide to stand still when a zombie is literally running towards you. Anyone would always assume that a bunch of zombies spawning, making noise, and running towards you, are going to attack you because they know where you are.

 

Closet zombies aren't really the problem, as they are already spawned in and generally follow stealth rules. The problem is high tier PoIs with unintuitive "alerted" spawns, like the infamous jail ambush that was discussed in another thread.

 

And no, each play style does not have a counter reaction, at least not in such an intrusive and invisible manner like this.

 

Every tree can wipe out a PoI, some with more ease and others with less ease depending on your gear and perks, so that puts them all on a relatively even ground when going loud on a PoI.

 

Every tree has a weakness if you just level that tree alone, but agility is a combat focused tree, it literally has nothing else going for it, why would you nerf the only thing that tree does? What other counters do other trees have that the agility doesn't also have? Except agility suddenly has an extra "counter" that is not related to player's gear choice and gameplay, a bit weird no? Stealth is part of the game for everyone, but somehow you get punished by focusing on the stealth tree that improves stealth? It's obviously not intended.

[The_Great_Sephiroth]

4 hours ago, Lokeus said:

 

I ve also seen the video in another thread about T5 POIs in A21 and broken stealth. The point is... meanwhile it is valid to ask if "stealth" should really be a way to play in an horde survival crafting game. You take big advantage when you can play out your stealth ability but in fact - even though zombies shouldn`t be of any big intelligence - THEY should be in advantage, considering that they are hunting for your flesh and shouldn`t even have to really hear or see you. I wouldn`t be too sad if stealth would be removed from the game. Though mechanics for tricking zombies should be expansed. In close situation the amount of possibilities to really trick them is quite limited by now. Give player more chances to defend passively and kill stealth, i think that would be a fair solution.

Just thinking of your favorite movies, player could tie them, really break their mouth so they can`t bite anymore and so they become a markable smaller hazard to the player. Would love that. split off their legs so they become crawlers or do some even harder knockbacks which stun them double or triple time, there are many ways to compensate lack of stealth

Literally every zombie movie out there has people hiding from zombies. Not always successfully, but it's a thing. Some of us enjoy hunting zeds in the night as well, using the darkness as cover. There are many reasons stealth is completely viable, but on the same token, it should not be so effective that I can wipe out hordes of zeds solo. Currently, it is not, to my knowledge.

[Riamus]

8 hours ago, zztong said:

 

Ah, my apologies. I have experienced this. I've also experienced normal zombie volumes not spawning zombies in places where I encounter them. So, yeh, I can end up running around a POI making lots of noise trying to get it to reveal itself. The "hints" feature is supposed to help there, but sometimes there's too many unfound volumes, like two volumes when the hint is set to kick in with 1 remaining.

Yeah, if it is a situation of not being able to find where they are.  I've had it where a button that was the only way to trigger zombies to spawn in didn't work and even though I broke through to where they should be, there was no way to spawn them in and so I couldn't complete the quest even though I'd cleared the entire rest of the building.  This issue with triggers is a problem because no hint will get you the zombies to spawn if the trigger isn't working or was destroyed (shotgun blast missing a zombie that destroys the trigger, for example).  It also doesn't help you to know that because you didn't go through a specific path, the zombies aren't spawning and unless you start running over every surface of the POI, you might never find that trigger point.  That's poor design, imo.

[BFT2020]

I must be lucky so far, I haven't seen that situation where a sleeper was not spawning in no matter what I am doing.  I have had situations where I reached the end and haven't cleared the POI, but backtracking I was always able to find that last group of zombies that were preventing quest completion.

[Gabe Lincoln]

On 6/26/2023 at 10:52 AM, RhinoW said:

Zombies don't start spawned in for performance reasons, that's why you can shoot outside and only the ones that are spawned will react.

 

With that said, I do belive there are problems inside of the buildings, and some could be fixed by having more intuitive reactions and more randomness to it.

Yeah, I understand the idea of not spawning in zombies for performance reasons, but if I am forced to drop into a trigger it shouldn't spawn in 3 or 4 high level zombies right on top of me alerted. I knew I was in a dangerous area, but it struck me as wrong that there was no way to get into that area (which was a closed in box) without triggering that particular fight, and it struck me as extra wrong that something spawned in right next to me alerted.

I do like the idea of "wandering sleepers" ones that aren't spawning in alerted, but are shambling around on a patrol path with more normal detection ranges instead of sleeper ones.

On the actual topic of the suggestion, I hope there is some redundancy to zombie spawning in PoIs to prevent that sort of thing from happening.

[BFT2020]

I believe they were looking at the possibility of wandering sleepers, but not sure where that is at exactly.

[Riamus]

19 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

I must be lucky so far, I haven't seen that situation where a sleeper was not spawning in no matter what I am doing.  I have had situations where I reached the end and haven't cleared the POI, but backtracking I was always able to find that last group of zombies that were preventing quest completion.

You're lucky, then. 

 

It doesn't happen often but when it does, it is really frustrating.  You can be standing on the yellow dot and not be able to do anything about it because they won't spawn no matter what you do.

[hiemfire]

To the point of the OP, from the b323 EXP notes under added: 

Quote

Added block triggers being destroyed activates it

Link to full notes incase someone isn't sure of where they're posted at:

[Laz Man]

7 hours ago, Riamus said:

You're lucky, then. 

 

It doesn't happen often but when it does, it is really frustrating.  You can be standing on the yellow dot and not be able to do anything about it because they won't spawn no matter what you do.

 

There's a fix in the latest experimental to hopefully prevents that from happening now.

[Riamus]

1 hour ago, hiemfire said:

To the point of the OP, from the b323 EXP notes under added: 

Link to full notes incase someone isn't sure of where they're posted at:

 

44 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

 

There's a fix in the latest experimental to hopefully prevents that from happening now.

Thanks to both of you, though this only fixes one part of the problem - a trigger being destroyed.  That's a good thing!  But it does not fix triggers that fail, triggers that the player doesn't go through, etc.  The world is fully destroyable and players aren't required to go through the intended path of a POI.  They should not be penalized by not being able to figure out how to trigger a zombie spawn to complete a quest just because they don't go where you intended.