Poll - Which progression system did you prefer?

[youcantgetridofme]

I am poll voter 103 (the 46.79%). Seems clear so far, what people preferred - LBD. If it's not broken, there's no need to fix it, but it got fixed repeatedly.

[RipClaw]

1 hour ago, MiTHMoN said:

Spam-crafting stone axes to improve the stone axe crafting skill was entirely goofy. I remember just joining a game, and constantly dropping stone axes because you can't salvage while crafting. Just queuing up hundreds of stone axes. 

 

I can't relate to people who thought that was a good system. 

 

It made me feel powerful to be so quickly and reliably gaining progress, but it completely ruins immersion.

Let me get this straight. You abused the system with spam crafting to make fast progress and now you complain that the progress was so fast?

 

The problem was not LBD but players that felt the need to progress faster. I started with Alpha 15 and never resorted to spam crafting to progress quickly. I was still fighting the horde with bow and arrow on day 35. Nowadays, players complain if they don't have some kind of firearm on day one.

 

With Alpha 16.4 the spam crafting problem was solved anyway and we had a hybrid system instead of a pure LDB system. With Alpha 17 came the skill tree and some players started farming screamers and spamming quests instead of crafting stone axes to progress faster. And in Alpha 21 the same players run from mailbox to mailbox and pump out as many T1 quest as they can to get the magazine bundles.

 

 

[Cobretti_]

The alpha where we sat in our base crafting 1000 axes every night sucked, the multiple alpha's where the trader gave you a motorcycle in week 2 sucked, the alpha where I spec'd fists and didn't get a steel knuckle drop for 72 days (at which point I quit) sucked. A21 progression is the best I can remember.

[theFlu]

6 hours ago, RipClaw said:

You abused the system with spam crafting to make fast progress and now you complain that the progress was so fast?

He didn't complain the progress was fast, he complained it wasn't immersive.

 

There's no "abusing" spam crafting if spam crafting is designed to be both possible and productive. It's just a bad design when the only limiting factor is the annoyance you can tolerate. If that's the design, it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that people get annoyed...

[RipClaw]

16 minutes ago, theFlu said:

There's no "abusing" spam crafting if spam crafting is designed to be both possible and productive. It's just a bad design when the only limiting factor is the annoyance you can tolerate. If that's the design, it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that people get annoyed...

The point is that those who complain about LBD always act as if the game forced them to do this. Nobody forced them to do anything. They did all this to themselves.

 

That is just a mindset that some players have. They have to play in the most efficient way. If that means crafting stone axes, they'll do it whether it's fun or not. If that means farming screamers and spamming quests, then that's what they'll do.

 

 

 

[theFlu]

2 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

That is just a mindset that some players have.

The successful ones, you mean?

 

There's nothing wrong in Not getting points in a video game, heck you can even turn the game off. But a mechanic for improvement is meant to be used, and when the limit is player annoyance... it's annoying. Is that such a hard thing to get? Maybe I'd enjoy myself more by turning off the bad mechanic. Yeah. But it's still a bad mechanic?

[AtomicUs5000]

9 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

The point is that those who complain about LBD always act as if the game forced them to do this. Nobody forced them to do anything. They did all this to themselves.

 
I hate that. If LBD was a portion of the skills and you lost a chunk of it upon death, nobody would do it to the point of annoyance.

[Kyler133]

I wonder if the real answer for a gold game is:  All of the above.  You put in all of these systems to one degree or another and allow the players to progress along the same skills via 3 different methods.  If they are doing the thing a lot, it is the same as if they are reading up on it or using their gained XP to boost it.  I think this would have to be carefully designed and balanced but it sounds really cool to me.  Leave the magazines pretty much exactly as they are but reduce their frequency in the world by a minor percentage.  Add progress meters under every magazine skill that build as you do the thing, when it fills up, it is the same as if you read a mag.  As you progress in that skill, the amount of "doing it" would have to increase to get to the next unlock as we don't want to be crafting low level items repeatedly to be advantageous, we want to incentivize practicing the highest level skill you have achieved to most quickly improve to the next unlock.  So how would XP fit into this?  Well, currently your choices in the perks influences your magazine loot so it could also influence how quickly you learn by doing in those same skill categories.  

I hope this helps TFP to build on all of their ideas and utilize all of their work up to this point to create a progression system that is revolutionary and fits all sorts of different play styles (one of the huge selling points of this game).

[Riamus]

On 7/2/2023 at 6:11 AM, Archael said:

You spec into miner, go to mine and... never get anything better than stone axe q1... so fast and so best.

If you are only mining, do you need a better stone axe?  If you spec into mining and loot at all, you'll get magazines to make a better stone axe even if you just spec into mining.

 

23 hours ago, ninjagranny said:

Sorry  I obviously didnt  explain myslef well enough

In a  multiplayer game  we tend to have a  zombie masher  a cook a/ gardener  a  crafter  a builder and a miner  (although different people  can take whatever specialisation they want and someteimes we have no zombie masher etc  )- so they specialsie in what they want to do . With the new system you cant - you  have to go out and loot  / fight zombies .. I have 1300 hours in game so  far and have used minor mods to remove the  huge xp form trader quests and reduce xp from zombie kills etc . nothing massive  ( oh yea and  remove the  autokill traps like the blades as they make end game  way too simple  and  put blood moon up by  10 times .)

 

Even single player  you  cant for example spec into a stealth bowman for example as you have to loot  the correct  magazines to even be able to  make  basic items .. it just random grindfest without being able to specialise . Quest  xp is ridiculoulsy high and  you can cane through levels if you leave it like that - I have re-instaleld  a 20    and am digging through the  huge amount of changes to  get rid of the magazines  

You can certainly spec into anything you want.  That doesn't prevent you from getting magazines for crafting other things.  The bonus from putting a point into something is nice but is definitely not a requirement.  I have found a ton of magazines for things I don't have any points in.  It might be somewhat slower but unless you're in a rush, that's not a big deal.  Yes, you have to loot to get a decent amount of magazines (buying isn't worth much as there aren't many magazines and they only restock every few days).  Most people either loot or are in groups where people loot, so this is not a problem.

 

In SP, you almost have to do at least some looting just to have resources you need.  Mining is fine for a few resources but won't give you other things you need.  And that looting can get you the magazines you need.  The speed of which just depends on how much looting you choose to do.  If you don't like looting even in SP, then run around a town and hit all the mailboxes and newspaper stands and you'll have a lot of magazines without any real effort other than riding around town.  Personally, I don't like that and prefer to mostly loot the POI I clear and get my magazines that way but it is an option if you don't like clearing POI.  Granted, those are all random and not specific magazines the same as you'd find if you looted places that have specific magazines (workbenches and cement mixers are great for forge ahead magazines) but it would still work.

 

I'm curious why you're using mods for reducing XP when the game has options to reduce XP?  Seems to be a lot easier than using a mod to do it.

 

Anyhow, you can just give yourself a bunch of magazines from the Creative Menu if you don't want to have to find the magazines and you can then craft whatever you want if you have the resources needed.

16 hours ago, youcantgetridofme said:

I am poll voter 103 (the 46.79%). Seems clear so far, what people preferred - LBD. If it's not broken, there's no need to fix it, but it got fixed repeatedly.

And yet, over half who voted don't like LBD.  So even with that, you're still choosing something most people don't prefer.  In the end, a hybrid system is probably the best solution but that's not in the poll and would be a difficult poll item because you'd have to define exactly what you mean because hybrid could be a very wide range of things, from extremely good to extremely bad.

[Riamus]

8 hours ago, RipClaw said:

The point is that those who complain about LBD always act as if the game forced them to do this. Nobody forced them to do anything. They did all this to themselves.

 

That is just a mindset that some players have. They have to play in the most efficient way. If that means crafting stone axes, they'll do it whether it's fun or not. If that means farming screamers and spamming quests, then that's what they'll do.

There is a bit of truth in that, though.  If you want to craft better stuff and the way to get good enough to craft the better stuff is to craft a bunch of lesser items, you really have no choice.  Some might have done it all at once just to get the best stuff unlocked that much sooner but even if you spread it out, you still have to craft a bunch of items to get good enough to craft better items.  I did that enough in WoW years ago as well as other games and it just gets old really fast.  I like crafting but I don't want to spend an hour real time or whatever to level it up in order to craft something actually useful.  I want to spend my time going out and completing quests and killing stuff and come back long enough to craft something quickly and then go back out.  Not spend forever leveling up crafting.  Some people don't mind that but I don't enjoy it at all.  And I'm not someone who has that efficient-only attitude.  I won't craft a better drone because I feel the resource requirements are ridiculous and so I'll wait until I can find or buy one even if it takes weeks.  I'll be stopping using dew collectors in SP because they are too tedious between constantly emptying them and dealing with screamers even if they are more efficient than not using them.  And so on.  I happen to enjoy questing and looting but I don't enjoy it because it's efficient.  I enjoy it simply because I like that type of game.  I enjoy an active game and not one where I'm sitting around trying to level up a LBD system.  It's fine for something like fighting skills as you use those naturally but most other skills require too much leveling up to be natural and to stay in line with your character's level and the level of the game.

[16.4forever]

On 6/16/2023 at 1:15 PM, Syphon583 said:

Good lord, it's been out for 4 days. You cannot tell me that after 4 days you can honestly (and fairly) make up your mind regarding a new progression system. Also given the fact that the game is in experimental and balancing will be a continual process for the next few minor releases.

 

How about we let it cook a little bit?

This game has been cooked ever since it left a16 its overcooked 

[Archael]

6 hours ago, Riamus said:

If you are only mining, do you need a better stone axe?  If you spec into mining and loot at all, you'll get magazines to make a better stone axe even if you just spec into mining.

Not really.
In MP where group has their specs and objectives, leaving mine for magazines is not welcome at least.
in SP if i have to leave mine to hunt for magaizines, it means i have to spec into some other things that helps me with looting and fighting and thus, i cannot spec pure into mining, i have to be a Jack of all trades.

[Riamus]

4 hours ago, Archael said:

Not really.
In MP where group has their specs and objectives, leaving mine for magazines is not welcome at least.
in SP if i have to leave mine to hunt for magaizines, it means i have to spec into some other things that helps me with looting and fighting and thus, i cannot spec pure into mining, i have to be a Jack of all trades.

In SP, you need resources other than what you can mine so you'll already have to go out to loot/scavenge.  If you plan on crafting an auger, you're going to need motor tool parts and an engine, for example.  You do not have to spec into other things to do this if you don't want to.  You may be more efficient if you do but it certainly isn't a requirement.  You can loot or scavenge things without even having to fight anything.  Magazines are especially easy as you can find them in mailboxes and newspaper stands that are right next to the roads.  Others are found in the trader compounds inside the broken workstations so are also easy to get without having to fight anything.

 

In MP, there are 2 options really.  Either your party doesn't mind you looting/scavenging in order to get the magazines you need so you can craft better mining tools for yourself or else they bring back the magazines or the tools for you.  These are both valid options and work fine in MP.  Of course, if you have a bad group of people you play with who are unwilling to help you and don't want you to do anything except mine, then you're going to have problems.  But that's due more to your group dynamics than the game.  A decent group can easily handle keeping a stay-at-home miner filled up with magazines and/or good quality tools.

 

The idea that you are only able to spec into mining to get the most out of mining is not very accurate.  This isn't a game where you have to give up something in one tree if you want something in another.  It might take a bit longer to complete the mining perks if you put points into something else but it doesn't prevent you from completing them.  And it really doesn't even take long to complete the mining perks anyhow.  You should be able to do so in the first week unless you're using shorter days or don't do things that get you experience.  Since you're a miner, you should be getting plenty of experience to complete the mining perks within the first week.  After that, does it really matter if you put points into other perks?  They aren't going to help you with mining after it's complete after all.

Edited July 4, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)

[Greymantle]

Why would anyone spam craft when the loot drops were always better, let alone the trader.  They didn't even try to address this until the pipe weapons patch and the move to a slower start. The game is as unbalanced has it's ever been, maybe in another 10 years we will get another overhaul to a system to address this.

Edited July 4, 2023 by Greymantle (see edit history)

[Rince]

1 hour ago, Greymantle said:

Why would anyone spam craft when the loot drops were always better, let alone the trader.  They didn't even try to address this until the pipe weapons patch and the move to a slower start. The game is as unbalanced has it's ever been, maybe in another 10 years we will get another overhaul to a system to address this.

Not always better. Depends of the RNG. In my current game I didn't get anything particularly good for the traders, with two exceptions, and one already was replaced by a crafted weapon.

And tweaking the trader stage seems to be easier than make a whole new system.

[seagas]

On 7/3/2023 at 10:34 AM, Kyler133 said:

I wonder if the real answer for a gold game is:  All of the above.  You put in all of these systems to one degree or another and allow the players to progress along the same skills via 3 different methods.  If they are doing the thing a lot, it is the same as if they are reading up on it or using their gained XP to boost it.  I think this would have to be carefully designed and balanced but it sounds really cool to me.  Leave the magazines pretty much exactly as they are but reduce their frequency in the world by a minor percentage.  Add progress meters under every magazine skill that build as you do the thing, when it fills up, it is the same as if you read a mag.  As you progress in that skill, the amount of "doing it" would have to increase to get to the next unlock as we don't want to be crafting low level items repeatedly to be advantageous, we want to incentivize practicing the highest level skill you have achieved to most quickly improve to the next unlock.  So how would XP fit into this?  Well, currently your choices in the perks influences your magazine loot so it could also influence how quickly you learn by doing in those same skill categories.  

I hope this helps TFP to build on all of their ideas and utilize all of their work up to this point to create a progression system that is revolutionary and fits all sorts of different play styles (one of the huge selling points of this game).

I like this idea, but let's simplify it a bit, keep the current system but add LBD by a point in reading to it. Making something, should just provide the XP, but using the item should add to the magazines you've read. For example mining with a pick should add to the percentage of reading a magazine, say 5% for each RT minute your using the tool. Or the amount of damage you do with a weapon would add a percentage of magazine reading, depending the weapon used. The more damage a weapon does per shot or melee attack reduces the percentage of reading. 

[myrkana]

I want to see a nice mix. I do wish some stuff was learn by doing. Like if Im running all over the place I wish my stamina consumption while running would get a bit better just by doing it. But the way we had it in a16 was boring, you sat in a corner and crafted stuff often, breaking them down when your inventory was full and starting again. 

 

The books are a bit weird, Just did day 14 and I have 97 cooking.  I have all the workbenches except the last one in the category (cant remember which it is right now) and my other books are following the same path. I feel like im advancing too fast in many ways.

 

But for the books to work at all the entire game needs a balance, a major one. I have a tier 3 machine gun and im still only able to craft pipe ones. We have found steel weapons and armor before we are ever able to craft them. The trader is overbalanced and needs huge adjustment. The current system would work a lot better if by day 14 two people werent in steel with books approaching max quite easily.

Edited July 5, 2023 by myrkana (see edit history)

[meganoth]

On 7/5/2023 at 4:46 PM, myrkana said:

I want to see a nice mix. I do wish some stuff was learn by doing. Like if Im running all over the place I wish my stamina consumption while running would get a bit better just by doing it. But the way we had it in a16 was boring, you sat in a corner and crafted stuff often, breaking them down when your inventory was full and starting again. 

 

The books are a bit weird, Just did day 14 and I have 97 cooking.  I have all the workbenches except the last one in the category (cant remember which it is right now) and my other books are following the same path. I feel like im advancing too fast in many ways.

 

But for the books to work at all the entire game needs a balance, a major one. I have a tier 3 machine gun and im still only able to craft pipe ones. We have found steel weapons and armor before we are ever able to craft them. The trader is overbalanced and needs huge adjustment. The current system would work a lot better if by day 14 two people werent in steel with books approaching max quite easily.

 

Fully agree with the last two paragraphs. But the bit about running improving your stamina: What would probably happen? People would have a strong incentive to just run around for nothing just so their stamina reserve goes up.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Fully agree with the last two paragraphs. But the bit about running improving your stamina: What would probably happen? People would have a strong incentive to just run around for nothing just so their stamina reserve goes up.

 

Well, just add a treadmill then.

[John Black]

16 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Fully agree with the last two paragraphs. But the bit about running improving your stamina: What would probably happen? People would have a strong incentive to just run around for nothing just so their stamina reserve goes up.

 

Just make the gains low enough so it's not worth running for nothing. Give me 0.01 skill points for running to X whilst doing Y and I'll be happy. It's not about getting to 100, it's about continuously improving as I'm doing something.

[theFlu]

16 hours ago, AtomicUs5000 said:

Well, just add a treadmill then.

That would make for a funny zed trap Three in a row on a three-wide killing corridor.. Boe trying to keep up with a feral nurse..

[AtomicUs5000]

4 hours ago, John Black said:

Just make the gains low enough so it's not worth running for nothing. Give me 0.01 skill points for running to X whilst doing Y and I'll be happy. It's not about getting to 100, it's about continuously improving as I'm doing something.

 
Also, removing a portion of it when dying would help with that. New players might find it clever to attempt running around doing nothing to level up stamina, but when they die because they wasted their time instead of doing more important things, that idea will fade quickly. Those who manage to stay alive get the bonus.

[theFlu]

8 minutes ago, AtomicUs5000 said:

New players might find it clever to attempt running around doing nothing to level up stamina, but when they die because they wasted their time instead of doing more important things, that idea will fade quickly.

Atm, running would also be limited by food consumption, to an extent. As I assume most people would at most do it at night in early game, where food might actually be a premium.

 

Having a cost in something important would be a pretty good rule of thumb for what people would be spamming. Infinite stone axes for tool crafting were a thing as they cost about two seconds of harvesting per 100. Had they cost a bit more, less of a problem. Then again wood and stone have always been easier to obtain than food..

[Seth333]

Hi, i've created an account especially for this poll.

 

In my opinion the last progression change (learn by looting) has completely destroyed co-op play where 1-2 players are looting and scavenging and 1-2 players are busy with hunting and base-building.

 

In A20 it was possible to skill your char into several directions, lets say a loot and scavenging specialist spending his point in perception while other players are able to skill weaponry and armor for combat.

 

Currently i see no way to achieve this without everybody has to watch which container he loots / has to loot to improve his skills / specialisation

 

Beside this, its a great game.

 

I have more than 2k Hours into this game and still love it!

 

Greeting 

 

 - Seth

[Riamus]

3 hours ago, Seth333 said:

Hi, i've created an account especially for this poll.

 

In my opinion the last progression change (learn by looting) has completely destroyed co-op play where 1-2 players are looting and scavenging and 1-2 players are busy with hunting and base-building.

 

In A20 it was possible to skill your char into several directions, lets say a loot and scavenging specialist spending his point in perception while other players are able to skill weaponry and armor for combat.

 

Currently i see no way to achieve this without everybody has to watch which container he loots / has to loot to improve his skills / specialisation

 

Beside this, its a great game.

 

I have more than 2k Hours into this game and still love it!

 

Greeting 

 

 - Seth

Why do you feel you can't specialize in multiple directions for different players?  The only thing you miss out on is the boost to find a specific magazine from a perk you don't have (or the person opening the container doesn't have).  That is a nice bonus but hardly a big deal.  If anything, I think that bonus should just be entirely removed as it seems to bother people.  Then it doesn't matter anymore who perks into what in multiplayer, even though it really isn't a big deal as it is now.

 

For now, maybe you will miss out on a magazine here or there but that really isn't critical.  Besides, I'm sure there is more balancing to be done for magazines.

Edited July 7, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)