Not very enjoyable

[Riamus]

EDIT:  To avoid any confusion on this, the original post was related to a single save where almost every hit was causing bleeds.  Two other saves do not have this problem.  madmole has said there is some kind of bug related to multiple crits and bleeds and such, so there is something wrong there.  As this was the first save, I had assumed it was an intentional change and that was why I was upset about it.  As it appears to be a bug and not affecting other saves, my original post can pretty much be ignored. 

 

---Original Post---

Well, I originally thought I liked the update but the more I am playing, the more I'm finding that I am starting to hate it.  I am about to just quit playing because it's annoying me so much.  Almost every hit from a zombie causes a negative effect - usually bleeding.  At the first levels you just don't have bandages enough to keep up with dealing with all these high numbers of bleeds.  Lighting is so messed up that it will go from full brightness to full darkness with a single step inside a building and the fade in/out looks extremely unnatural.  Greatly increased damage by zombies, or so it seems, may be fine at high difficulties for those that like that but there wasn't a reason to change difficulty from what it was before.  The constant crawling of zombies at broken doors causing them to get their super reach attacks is getting old really fast.

 

I really hope this gets balanced quickly because it is so frustrating to play right now.  I love the look and changes overall but whatever "balancing" that was done is awful.

 

And WHY would I get spawned on top of a POI roof when I spawn near backpack?!  There's no reason for that.  It wasn't even a roof you're meant to be on and so no way down besides jumping or building something.

 

At this point I can't even play anymore.  I'm just so fed of with a bleed from practically every hit from a zombie.  Waiting for a fix or someone to mod it back to better levels.

Edited June 15, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)

[ElCabong]

58 minutes ago, Riamus said:

Well, I originally thought I liked the update but the more I am playing, the more I'm finding that I am starting to hate it.  I am about to just quit playing because it's annoying me so much.  Almost every hit from a zombie causes a negative effect - usually bleeding.  At the first levels you just don't have bandages enough to keep up with dealing with all these high numbers of bleeds.  Lighting is so messed up that it will go from full brightness to full darkness with a single step inside a building and the fade in/out looks extremely unnatural.  Greatly increased damage by zombies, or so it seems, may be fine at high difficulties for those that like that but there wasn't a reason to change difficulty from what it was before.  The constant crawling of zombies at broken doors causing them to get their super reach attacks is getting old really fast.

 

I really hope this gets balanced quickly because it is so frustrating to play right now.  I love the look and changes overall but whatever "balancing" that was done is awful.

 

And WHY would I get spawned on top of a POI roof when I spawn near backpack?!  There's no reason for that.  It wasn't even a roof you're meant to be on and so no way down besides jumping or building something.

 

At this point I can't even play anymore.  I'm just so fed of with a bleed from practically every hit from a zombie.  Waiting for a fix or someone to mod it back to better levels.

You can change the difficulty down one notch

[VALL]

All of those issues still exist on lower difficulties...

[BFT2020]

Day 2 and not a single bleed or debuff yet

[mprojekt]

I am currently on Day 4 (Nomad difficulty) and been smacked around in the wasteland (played DF and UL so much that I forgot what level 1 in vanilla is like). I have had only a single bout of the zombie-koof on Day 1 (FU, squadron of vomit-pigeons) and a bleed on Day 3, from a weird and clingy biker that didn't clip his fingernails.

[coffebeerpuppy]

I've had the same issue. The lighting is so extreme, it's getting annoying. I understand why they're doing it but it's too drastic for me. 

[Vaeliorin]

The first hit I took I got a concussion.  They seem much more common than previously, but I haven't played (basically) vanilla in so long I don't really have a good point for comparison.

 

That said, I find the unperked cooking times for food to be asinine.  20 water taking 16:40 to cook is just ridiculous.  Sure, by late game it's a non-issue because I can cook up a bunch while I'm off doing other stuff, but day 1-2, I don't have the time to sit around waiting for it to cook, I need to be out doing things, but yet I'm near dying of dehydration.  Very frustrating.

 

Kinda hating stamina issues as well.  Would be fine if I was doing clubs/sledgehammers since I'm going into strength first thing for mining stuff, but I wanted to try out spears (they seem really good) so I have all of 1 point in them.

[Fox]

It's the easiest way to make a game difficult. The devs can't come up with creative ways or refuse to put in the time in making the game difficult the right way so they simply play around with some numbers again, including food and water, cook times, negative effects, books / recipes, etc. It's something we see in a lot of survival crafting games, these devs have been doing it to this game since the very beginning. In fact, I'm not at all surprised anymore that they continued to take it even further with yet another "major" update. And I use quotes around major because all I see in this update is cosmetic eye candy, some minor performance optimizations and difficulty tweaks as the only major changes to the game... nothing remotely interesting to me personally, although I'm sure others would have differing opinions on that. Luckily though, all of those number tweaks can usually be undone with a simple mod.

 

The worst part in my opinion is that the simple exploits that I've been using since Alpha 1 will likely always exist despite the devs having falsely claimed to me several years ago that they'd one day fix those problems. One of the simple exploits is something we're all very familiar with, the tower builds. Sure, it lacks effort and creativity, but it'll always be the most efficient and effective building in the game. Another one is the ramp and jump gap to the upper level of your base. There's even some exploits I know probably exist but haven't bothered to try out yet; like flying around during bloodmoon until daytime and then landing in the store safe zone where you can deal with any flyers after you and / or zombies without any risk of dying or base damage, etc. There's also the nerd poling issue that has yet to be dealt with.

 

But rather than fixing exploits and increasing the difficulty of a game in a more creative way (like bandits which were promised a long time ago), they'd rather just play around with some numbers and remove things that were making the game too easy in their minds and distract players with lots of cosmetic eye candy again and hope the backlash isn't too much this time. It's no wonder why so many players prefer to play older versions of the game.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Fox (see edit history)

[ParadiseLostUK]

6 hours ago, Riamus said:

Well, I originally thought I liked the update but the more I am playing, the more I'm finding that I am starting to hate it.  I am about to just quit playing because it's annoying me so much.  Almost every hit from a zombie causes a negative effect - usually bleeding.  At the first levels you just don't have bandages enough to keep up with dealing with all these high numbers of bleeds.  Lighting is so messed up that it will go from full brightness to full darkness with a single step inside a building and the fade in/out looks extremely unnatural.  Greatly increased damage by zombies, or so it seems, may be fine at high difficulties for those that like that but there wasn't a reason to change difficulty from what it was before.  The constant crawling of zombies at broken doors causing them to get their super reach attacks is getting old really fast.

 

I really hope this gets balanced quickly because it is so frustrating to play right now.  I love the look and changes overall but whatever "balancing" that was done is awful.

 

And WHY would I get spawned on top of a POI roof when I spawn near backpack?!  There's no reason for that.  It wasn't even a roof you're meant to be on and so no way down besides jumping or building something.

 

At this point I can't even play anymore.  I'm just so fed of with a bleed from practically every hit from a zombie.  Waiting for a fix or someone to mod it back to better levels.

I found my last playthrough with A20 to be a bit heavy handed with the critical hits in the first day or so, once you get a set of padded armour it becomes much more manageable.  I can't say it's spoiling my enjoyment so far though.

 

As for the spawn issue, that's a new feature and this is probably an unexpected edge case that'll get fixed eventually.

[Riamus]

Ok... After I stopped being so frustrated I got back into the game and started a new game.  This time, debuffs are normal.  Maybe it was just extremely bad luck, though I wasn't the only one in that game having the exact same issue so the RNG was bad for everyone.  So far, this new game is going normally and I am okay with it right now.  That was some insanely bad RNG if that's what was going on, though.

[Lokeus]

6 hours ago, Riamus said:

Ok... After I stopped being so frustrated I got back into the game and started a new game.  This time, debuffs are normal.  Maybe it was just extremely bad luck, though I wasn't the only one in that game having the exact same issue so the RNG was bad for everyone.  So far, this new game is going normally and I am okay with it right now.  That was some insanely bad RNG if that's what was going on, though.

 

Also: It`s a new game, i also experienced much stronger zombies and decided to get my first points into toughness skills. I guess that is exactly what TFP wanted to intend, to give old unused skilltrees more weight in the game and in my oppinion there are some really good choices now, which i did not chose in A20 games as there were too many essentials for the beginning you never wanted to miss out (T-Rex, Strength, Punch)

[VALL]

9 hours ago, Fox said:

It's the easiest way to make a game difficult. The devs can't come up with creative ways or refuse to put in the time in making the game difficult the right way so they simply play around with some numbers again, including food and water, cook times, negative effects, books / recipes, etc. It's something we see in a lot of survival crafting games, these devs have been doing it to this game since the very beginning. In fact, I'm not at all surprised anymore that they continued to take it even further with yet another "major" update. And I use quotes around major because all I see in this update is cosmetic eye candy, some minor performance optimizations and difficulty tweaks as the only major changes to the game... nothing remotely interesting to me personally, although I'm sure others would have differing opinions on that. Luckily though, all of those number tweaks can usually be undone with a simple mod.

 

The worst part in my opinion is that the simple exploits that I've been using since Alpha 1 will likely always exist despite the devs having falsely claimed to me several years ago that they'd one day fix those problems. One of the simple exploits is something we're all very familiar with, the tower builds. Sure, it lacks effort and creativity, but it'll always be the most efficient and effective building in the game. Another one is the ramp and jump gap to the upper level of your base. There's even some exploits I know probably exist but haven't bothered to try out yet; like flying around during bloodmoon until daytime and then landing in the store safe zone where you can deal with any flyers after you and / or zombies without any risk of dying or base damage, etc. There's also the nerd poling issue that has yet to be dealt with.

 

But rather than fixing exploits and increasing the difficulty of a game in a more creative way (like bandits which were promised a long time ago), they'd rather just play around with some numbers and remove things that were making the game too easy in their minds and distract players with lots of cosmetic eye candy again and hope the backlash isn't too much this time. It's no wonder why so many players prefer to play older versions of the game.

Totally agree. Very consice points.

[Lokeus]

But "cosmetic eye candy" can be a real important motivation to play the game along. I am playing stranded deep nearby, honestly a very moderate game, but the water simulation of the ocean and the island hopping mechanic is so freakin relaxing, it always feels like expansion of my holidays 😀

7d2d also got a very good immersion but it could be better. It is a long process to get rid of this block-stylish feeling in the game, with a lot of the new "candies" it lost again this feeling and i like it when it looks more realistic. Also i do not know if TFP are doing this game as full time job or not, if not, this is a great piece of work i think.

[Kosmic Kerman]

Part of this is people needing to learn how to adapt to the changes. If you need to cook a bunch of stuff fast use multiple campfires. If you are used to trading blows  with zombies and getting away with it try a different approach. Take it slow until you have padded armor that you have looted or crafted. Remember to repair your armor. Pick cotton to make basic bandages for bleeds.
 

The biggest problem I’ve seen so far is what looks like a nerf to honey from stumps.  I got infected from a vulture day one and no honey dropped after hitting 10 stumps. In the xml, the stumps have a  .2  chance of dropping honey. Clearly, I got unlucky but given the overall reduction of trees and the increased likelihood of getting infected, the honey drop rate may need to be turned up a bit. BUT I’m still early days and so maybe it’s fine. 

[minisith]

5 minutes ago, Kosmic Kerman said:

Part of this is people needing to learn how to adapt to the changes. If you need to cook a bunch of stuff fast use multiple campfires. If you are used to trading blows  with zombies and getting away with it try a different approach. Take it slow until you have padded armor that you have looted or crafted. Remember to repair your armor. Pick cotton to make basic bandages for bleeds.
 

The biggest problem I’ve seen so far is what looks like a nerf to honey from stumps.  I got infected from a vulture day one and no honey dropped after hitting 10 stumps. In the xml, the stumps have a  .2  chance of dropping honey. Clearly, I got unlucky but given the overall reduction of trees and the increased likelihood of getting infected, the honey drop rate may need to be turned up a bit. BUT I’m still early days and so maybe it’s fine. 

This is why I learned to chop any stumps I see right from the start.   It is a habit now. XD

[Kosmic Kerman]

4 minutes ago, minisith said:

This is why I learned to chop any stumps I see right from the start.   It is a habit now. XD

I had chopped every stump I saw before the infection and then went searching for them immediately after but luck was not in my favor. 
 

[BFT2020]

1 hour ago, Kosmic Kerman said:

The biggest problem I’ve seen so far is what looks like a nerf to honey from stumps.  I got infected from a vulture day one and no honey dropped after hitting 10 stumps. In the xml, the stumps have a  .2  chance of dropping honey. Clearly, I got unlucky but given the overall reduction of trees and the increased likelihood of getting infected, the honey drop rate may need to be turned up a bit. BUT I’m still early days and so maybe it’s fine. 

 

I was about to say no nerf, but there was a slight one (and probably well deserved).  All stumps now have a 20% chance of harvesting honey; previously POI stumps were set at 40%.

[Kosmic Kerman]

3 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

 

I was about to say no nerf, but there was a slight one (and probably well deserved).  All stumps now have a 20% chance of harvesting honey; previously POI stumps were set at 40%.

Maybe. My big issue is that they turned one dial down (prevalence of honey) and one dial up (likelihood of infection). I haven’t played enough to know whether they go the balance right but I don’t think we can judge based solely on how prevalent honey was in A20. Zombies crit you way more in A21, I’m not sure if making it harder to cure infection was the right call. But I need to play much more to see if other loot tables were adjusted or if the traders inventory was adjusted to mitigate the increased crits. 

[Riamus]

Yeah, these balance changes need some tweaking, I think.  Things like bleeds and infections that can't be fixed except with certain things (bleeds aren't an issue after the first few days or so as you can keep up bandage production by that point if you have to) aren't really the best things to increase except in higher difficulty levels.  Dying when you have no chance of recovering -- RNG chance for infections and chance for bleeds depends on maintaining enough bandages, which can be hard if you're constantly bleeding -- are not exactly fun.  Dying because you made a mistake and rushed too many zombies is different because you made that choice and it wasn't caused by bad luck.

 

This is all only an issue for early game because you don't have the resources and/or skills to have a lot of infection cures or bandages to fight the higher chance of these effects.  I wouldn't mind so much if these effects increased after early game instead of being so high in early game.  I get it's supposed to be survival and that is not supposed to be easy but if I'm dying repeatedly without anything I can really do about it, that just isn't enjoyable.  And this is a game and so should be fun.  For those who really want a more difficult experience, that is what the difficulty settings should be for.  Just my opinion.  Of course, as I said, my new save isn't giving me anywhere near the number of debuffs so it was either horrible RNG or else a bug on that save.

[canadianbluebeer]

Lots of bleeds until got into some padded armor.

Lots of sprains and contusions too.

1 concussion, but I did something stoopid, so...

 

LOTS of infections too.  Honey is .. iffy.  Just got the perk book for better chance of honey from trees, so lessee what that does.

 

NOT amused over the cooking times, even with 1 pt into master chef, it's still ugly.  Multi campfires will be the way to go.

So far, not thrilled over the water either.

 

I'd have left it the way it was EXCEPT, no more of the good purified water except from the collectors. 

Want a ton of it, make a bunch.

 

I'm sure someone will mod the collectors to hold more than 3 water as well. 

 

 

Mind you, this is the first time I'd been starving or dehydrated since A16, so... 

 

One other major surprise that happened though.  Zeds are now thieves!

😛

 

[Kosmic Kerman]

Is the issue bandages or healing?  You can craft basic bandages from cloth (which you can make from cotton). Basic bandages stop bleeds but don’t heal. One of the first things I do in a new game is harvest some cloth or cotton to make bandages so I don’t waste the medicated ones on  bleeds.
 

Early game healing is usually reliant on food which presents a chicken and egg problem in A21. You need to loot for food and cooking skill. Hunting isn’t enough because you can’t just unlock recipes with perk points. My guess is you just need to spend more dukes on food and healing items from traders and vending machines. 

[Fox]

2 hours ago, Lokeus said:

But "cosmetic eye candy" can be a real important motivation to play the game along. I am playing stranded deep nearby, honestly a very moderate game, but the water simulation of the ocean and the island hopping mechanic is so freakin relaxing, it always feels like expansion of my holidays 😀

7d2d also got a very good immersion but it could be better. It is a long process to get rid of this block-stylish feeling in the game, with a lot of the new "candies" it lost again this feeling and i like it when it looks more realistic. Also i do not know if TFP are doing this game as full time job or not, if not, this is a great piece of work i think.

I agree. Eye candy is often what draws ppl in, although I'm sure some players with budget gaming systems would disagree. But if you had to choose between eye candy and new content for the next major update, which would you prefer?

Edited June 13, 2023 by Fox (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

I’m on day 5 right now and I had one bleed and one infection only….from a dog….and it was my fault because I forgot to load my pipe mg when I swapped out a Q2 with a Q3.  Not sure what you guys are doing to get crit so much.

[Exxodous]

My group has probably had a few more crit hits than normal, but it is a survival game at the end of the day.  Just have to remember to be a little more careful is all.

[Riamus]

53 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

I’m on day 5 right now and I had one bleed and one infection only….from a dog….and it was my fault because I forgot to load my pipe mg when I swapped out a Q2 with a Q3.  Not sure what you guys are doing to get crit so much.

Like I said, a new game is working fine.  Just something with that one that didn't work well.