Original Promises and Plans and the Current State of the Game

[Matt115]

2 hours ago, Roland said:

I call it "elements of survival horror". If you would feel better if I would say "survival with elements of horror" that's fine by me. I really don't seem much of a difference myself so no problem. The devs claim that survival horror is one of the genres they borrow from to make their hybrid game. I don't think there is anything wrong with that nor does it appear anyone else has a problem with that. Since it also has elements of a Sandbox Game it is perfectly reasonable for me to challenge myself and go through a quest using no ammo and simply running and juking and using doors and barricades to avoid zombies if I wish. The game allows it and if that brings an even greater feeling of survival horror then the game can claim that it contains those elements.

 

I see you point hah. I just use "effective" solutions - one time vulcture respawned in strange place and i and my friend coudn't find this - solution? collapse the building  XD

 

2 hours ago, Roland said:

 

 I won't quibble percentages. If that is your opinion that's your opinion. The water overhaul is going to make it possible to have decorations and structures under water and improve player swimming so while the biome already exists there are still improvements coming. The only missing biome as of now are the radiation zones. My 95% simply meant there was just one last biome to add. If you see it as more like 80% I have no argument with you about that.

Good too know that water overhaul will be pretty big

 

22 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

as "Superheroes" you have for example: Iron Man, Dr. Strange, Batman. Compare these heroes with Wonder Woman. Then compare Wonder Woman and Emma Woodhouse.

 

as "Mammal" you have for example: dog, cow, horse. Compare those mammals with a whale. Then compare the whale with a shark.

 

😉

 

So what?

 

 

Okay :  i mean that's some "tropes" are similiar - in Dead space , f.e.a.r.  little nighmares, or the forest there is big "focus' on environtment - a lot of corpses, strange voices, controversial stuff, dark and deppresing stuff usually  characters are pretty weak and lonely and if meet someone usualy this person die after while.

In post apo you have two " main ways" - west - like fallout or rage - parody and satire, while in east post apo is bigger focus on deppresing stuff but in this same time you have a lot of characters.

You can make post apo with zombies and this don't have to be horror game -  for example they are bilion. Okay so why the forest is horror sandbox game while 7dtd is sandbox with horror elements? 

1. world is more dangerous and "secretly" that 7dtd - strange places, you don't know what to expect 

2. enemy design and types

3. controversial/edgy stuff

4. much more gore everywhere

5. characters are pretty weak and resources are very limited

6. "art style" decisions

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 11, 2022 by Matt115 (see edit history)

[Roland]

55 minutes ago, Melange said:

I get it. Can't compare a shark to a woodlouse. It wastes your time and annoys the shark.

 

But Emma would definitely try to ship a shark with a woodlouse...

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, Matt115 said:

 

I see you point hah. I just use "effective" solutions - one time vulcture respawned in strange place and i and my friend coudn't find this - solution? collapse the building  XD

 

Good too know that water overhaul will be pretty big

 

 

Okay :  i mean that's some "tropes" are similiar - in Dead space , f.e.a.r.  little nighmares, or the forest there is big "focus' on environtment - a lot of corpses, strange voices, controversial stuff, dark and deppresing stuff usually  characters are pretty weak and lonely and if meet someone usualy this person die after while.

 

7D2D:

 

A lot of corpses? After I killed them, yes. Check

Strange Voices? Trader Rekt. Check

Controversial Stuff? Perk system. Check

Dark? At Night. Check

Depressing? Trader Jen seems only interested in my money. Check

Weak and lonely? Good description of a stealth player. Check

Meet a person and he dies? Check check and check for hundreds of them.

 

😉

 

2 hours ago, Matt115 said:

In post apo you have two " main ways" - west - like fallout or rage - parody and satire, while in east post apo is bigger focus on deppresing stuff but in this same time you have a lot of characters.

You can make post apo with zombies and this don't have to be horror game -  for example they are bilion. Okay so why the forest is horror sandbox game while 7dtd is sandbox with horror elements? 

1. world is more dangerous and "secretly" that 7dtd - strange places, you don't know what to expect 

2. enemy design and types

3. controversial/edgy stuff

4. much more gore everywhere

5. characters are pretty weak and resources are very limited

6. "art style" decisions

 

Nobody says that 7D2D is or has as much horror as the Forest. But come on, if you ever have played the Forest as often as you have 7D2D you won't find any strange places anymore or won't know what to expect.

 

7D2D is a department store of genres, it has something of everything and nothing at max.

 

Edited October 11, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[NekoPawtato]

19 hours ago, Roland said:

Claim #23: Domesticate animals

 

 

This claim is 0% fulfilled and likely won't happen. Taming a wolf to be a companion was planned at one point but they went with the drone instead. There are no plans as of now to tame boars or have chicken coops or rabbit cages.

 

Was this due to technical limitations, or more of a shift in their vision?

[Syphon583]

5 hours ago, Matt115 said:

If you call 7dtd survival horror this is mistake. But if you called 7dtd survival with horror elements - this will be 100% because even cod , half live or even legend of zelda mayora mask can be called games with horror elements

Good lord, Matt. We get it. You don't think 7DTD is horror. The fact of the matter is that this is YOUR OPINION and you can think that while simultaneously other players feel differently. It has absolutely no bearing on our enjoyment of the game or whether or not this game is meeting the original goals. Let's move on.

[Matt115]

10 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

7D2D:

 

A lot of corpses? After I killed them, yes. Check

Strange Voices? Trader Rekt. Check

Controversial Stuff? Perk system. Check

Dark? At Night. Check

Depressing? Trader Jen seems only interested in my money. Check

Weak and lonely? Good description of a stealth player. Check

Meet a person and he dies? Check check and check for hundreds of them.

 

😉

 

 

Nobody says that 7D2D is or has as much horror as the Forest. But come on, if you ever have played the Forest as often as you have 7D2D you won't find any strange places anymore or won't know what to expect.

 

7D2D is a department store of genres, it has something of everything and nothing at max.

 

Rekt sounds normal! just you know he is a "litte bit " tired 😜.

"Strange place" is hm...  style of place that's not "normal"  uhh let's say - in slasher movie girl fall into the pit  under totaly normal hotel and there hangs bodies and painted flowers on walls with small altar.

You know - normal "generic" destroyed house and normal house with chained skeletons in basment or hanging corpse with drawing on wall

 

3 minutes ago, Syphon583 said:

Good lord, Matt. We get it. You don't think 7DTD is horror. The fact of the matter is that this is YOUR OPINION and you can think that while simultaneously other players feel differently. It has absolutely no bearing on our enjoyment of the game or whether or not this game is meeting the original goals. Let's move on.

Okay i will explain to my point of view - " Let's move on." you can find in every community people who write something like that. And no matter how something will be bad/boring/ pay-2-win there always will say "use to it" or "  let's move on".  Quick example - during WaW period people complaing about silencers and reflex optic on MP40 but some guys were saying "let's move on this is just MP" or " but it's fun so this mean more to be fun" and now in Vanguard we have anime skins and terminator skins... in ww2 game. It was a long process. So that's i'm so "conservative" because... some people can say that MC is horror game because creepers in mines or cod is realistic because have "such good graphic". But more accurate should be "MC have horror elements, cod have realistic graphic" small diffrence - yes but if you ask me -> tons of small stuff change things a lot

[Roland]

1 hour ago, NekoPawtato said:

Was this due to technical limitations, or more of a shift in their vision?

 

I think it was due to the fact that when they first brought out the game they had Minecraft firmly in their minds and Minecraft had domestication of animals. As they proceeded they wanted to divorce themselves from Minecraft and didn't want to be thought of as a fancy Minecraft overhaul mod. They got rid of the crafting that was like Minecraft and became uninterested in other Minecraft-like similarities.

 

Animal domestication turned into wolf companion taming which turned into the drone follower so there was evolutionary migration. Finally, it has been suggested to them over the years time and time again to allow players to build chicken coops to simulate domesticated chickens or fishing traps to simulate a kind of fishing but they have been very resistant to those kinds of things. I guess you would call it a shift in their vision.

 

Once the game releases officially we can all scream "What about your promise of domesticated animals!!!!" and we'll see if they start sweating bullets and come out with post release update suddenly*

 

*suddenly = 2-year development time

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

MC have horror elements

 

You'll let this slide but not allow 7 Days to Die to claim some survival horror in the mix of all their genres????

[Catdaddy]

7 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

I'm 90% sure that the game is 99% complete, but 70% of that may not be true. 

 

[Matt115]

14 hours ago, Roland said:

 

You'll let this slide but not allow 7 Days to Die to claim some survival horror in the mix of all their genres????

Horror elements =/= survival horror. Cod BO3 have RPG elements -  make decisions etc. but you can't say it's a fps rpg.  In this same time Bordeland can be called fps hackenslasher because both things here are equal. GTA 5 is sandbox FPP-FPS ( after update it's equal) with raceing elements not sandbox  FPS- raceing game. Call to arms you name FPS-RTS hybrid because both parts are equal but man of war FFP control is just small element.

 

The best example about this diffrence - Fear is horror FPS while Bioshock is FPS with horror elements. If played/watched gameplay you can spot much bigger focus on horror in FEAR while in bioshock it's just small addition like in Half life 2 because much bigger focus is on typical PS3 FPS elements.

Why i'm so sticking about that? because if developers/publishers were much more stick about that situation on market would looks much better

Edited October 12, 2022 by Matt115 (see edit history)

[Riamus]

I keep seeing edgy and controversial in the description of horror.  Why?  Can those be in horror?  Sure.  Are they aspects of horror?  No.  They are just things that some horror uses, mostly due to the world we are living in today as those weren't common among horror decades ago.  Back then, if it startled you, it could be considered horror, or if there was murder and it wasn't meant to be realistic or historical, it could be considered horror.  It didn't take much.

 

Today, there more kinds of horror than we had back then.  Many of them use a spooky theme and they can be edgy or controversial parts, though not always.  These are just options for specific kinds of horror, but horror is not limited to such a specific definition. Horror doesn't even have to be dark.  That is common, but not a requirement.

 

This game has horror aspects, though I'll agree that horror isn't the first thing I think when I play the game.  But that doesn't mean they are wrong to call it survival horror.

[Roland]

2 hours ago, Riamus said:

I keep seeing edgy and controversial in the description of horror.  Why?  Can those be in horror?  Sure.  Are they aspects of horror?  No.  They are just things that some horror uses, mostly due to the world we are living in today as those weren't common among horror decades ago.  Back then, if it startled you, it could be considered horror, or if there was murder and it wasn't meant to be realistic or historical, it could be considered horror.  It didn't take much.

 

Today, there more kinds of horror than we had back then.  Many of them use a spooky theme and they can be edgy or controversial parts, though not always.  These are just options for specific kinds of horror, but horror is not limited to such a specific definition. Horror doesn't even have to be dark.  That is common, but not a requirement.

 

This game has horror aspects, though I'll agree that horror isn't the first thing I think when I play the game.  But that doesn't mean they are wrong to call it survival horror.

 

True horror is thinking you can best Matt in a conversation about horror....

[Laz Man]

2 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

True horror is thinking you can best Matt in a conversation about horror....

Nah, only if you are discussing survival horror.  Pay attention Roland!

[Roland]

You think you are safe by not discussing survival horror? That's the forum equivalent of splitting up to cover more ground. Matt will pop up when least expected and take everyone out one by one.

 

OMG, I'm the old coot that gives the warnings that nobody listens to. It's going to happen all over again....

[Jost Amman]

Ok, I'm now recycling LazMan's meme for a different purpose:

Spoiler

 

 

Now, imagine that in that video, Roland is the guy putting the shapes into the square shaped hole, and @Matt115 is the girl (sorry Matt!). Basically we have Matt115 nitpicking about the "horror" definition, and "survival" definition (the other shapes) and saying that they don't fit the square shape. And Roland is saying that any shape (RPG, horror, survival) can fit into the square hole (which is 7D2D). 

[Matt115]

10 hours ago, Riamus said:

I keep seeing edgy and controversial in the description of horror.  Why?  Can those be in horror?  Sure.  Are they aspects of horror?  No.  They are just things that some horror uses, mostly due to the world we are living in today as those weren't common among horror decades ago.  Back then, if it startled you, it could be considered horror, or if there was murder and it wasn't meant to be realistic or historical, it could be considered horror.  It didn't take much.

 

Today, there more kinds of horror than we had back then.  Many of them use a spooky theme and they can be edgy or controversial parts, though not always.  These are just options for specific kinds of horror, but horror is not limited to such a specific definition. Horror doesn't even have to be dark.  That is common, but not a requirement.

 

This game has horror aspects, though I'll agree that horror isn't the first thing I think when I play the game.  But that doesn't mean they are wrong to call it survival horror.

Yes  horror is connected with edgy and controversial. 

Well  even classic like books - Frankenstein was considered as controversial in their period ( i don't want to do lecture about that).

And i could wrote about movies comic but jut focus on game shall we?

 

Okay so : let's start from older games to newer : Resident evil was censured because was too much controversial in some countries. F.E.A.R - unethical experiments of children, nude  adult Alma + gore, Outlast 1+2 - gore and hm.... some "reference" ( you can find about controversial connected with 2), Fatal frame?  Gore, suicide, character design, torturings and stuff. Silent hill - well just everything you want ( as example famous piramidhead and mannequin scene),  The evil within - gore and some topic. Fnaf, Poppy playtime - i thing is know good enough to not have to explain, little nighmare - how to descibte to avoid spoilers. Pathologic 2... a lot of  controvesial trops.  Limbo - kid surffer in deppresing timeloop. The forest - canibalism, gore, experiments, types of enemies, "choice".

So as you see - edgy and controversial topic is part of  horror, there in such things in 7DTD 

 

8 hours ago, Roland said:

 

True horror is thinking you can best Matt in a conversation about horror....

 

Now i'm famous like Jason and Freddy 😜

 

8 hours ago, Laz Man said:

Nah, only if you are discussing survival horror.  Pay attention Roland!

Oh....  there is comedy horror, zombie horror, japanish ghost horror, slasher horror etc. 

 

8 hours ago, Roland said:

You think you are safe by not discussing survival horror? That's the forum equivalent of splitting up to cover more ground. Matt will pop up when least expected and take everyone out one by one.

 

OMG, I'm the old coot that gives the warnings that nobody listens to. It's going to happen all over again....

You sound like typical old man sitting in gas station warning teengers who want to spend summer in cabin in middle of woods 💀 

 

4 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

Ok, I'm now recycling LazMan's meme for a different purpose:

  Hide contents

 

 

Now, imagine that in that video, Roland is the guy putting the shapes into the square shaped hole, and @Matt115 is the girl (sorry Matt!). Basically we have Matt115 nitpicking about the "horror" definition, and "survival" definition (the other shapes) and saying that they don't fit the square shape. And Roland is saying that any shape (RPG, horror, survival) can fit into the square hole (which is 7D2D). 

 

You know what are you mean but this is like saying that elephant ( german tank destroyer)  and   T70 (soviet light tanks) are both just tanks because both have "barrel and tracks". But diffrence is so big. 

Tale of ice and fire, chronicles of narnia and lord of the rings are fantasy books - but are so diffrent right? 

For long period even racing games have two "stict" categories - Arcade ( here could be both lego and need for speed) and realistic (WRC) so you could be totaly fine about what type of game it will be. Now people can call survival horror -  cod (zombie mode) , resident evil and 7dtd while this games are totaly diffrent like total war and age of empires

 

[meganoth]

11 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Yes  horror is connected with edgy and controversial. 

Well  even classic like books - Frankenstein was considered as controversial in their period ( i don't want to do lecture about that).

And i could wrote about movies comic but jut focus on game shall we?

 

Okay so : let's start from older games to newer : Resident evil was censured because was too much controversial in some countries. F.E.A.R - unethical experiments of children, nude  adult Alma + gore, Outlast 1+2 - gore and hm.... some "reference" ( you can find about controversial connected with 2), Fatal frame?  Gore, suicide, character design, torturings and stuff. Silent hill - well just everything you want ( as example famous piramidhead and mannequin scene),  The evil within - gore and some topic. Fnaf, Poppy playtime - i thing is know good enough to not have to explain, little nighmare - how to descibte to avoid spoilers. Pathologic 2... a lot of  controvesial trops.  Limbo - kid surffer in deppresing timeloop. The forest - canibalism, gore, experiments, types of enemies, "choice".

So as you see - edgy and controversial topic is part of  horror, there in such things in 7DTD

 

You try again to prove stuff by just listing a few examples.

 

But I can list controversial stuff that is NOT horror: Nudity in games or movies, women as lead figures in action movies before the 90ties(?), nazi symbols in german movies. And I can list horror that is NOT controversial: Many ghost stories.

 

And by that I'm showing that controversial is neither required nor indication of horror.

 

Though if we just talk about indications often found in horror, then you are correct. But it isn't a neccessary ingredient at all.

 

(I'm sure I could do the same with edgy, but this word has so many meanings that we first would have to define it)

 

 

Edited October 15, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Matt115]

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

You try again to prove stuff by just listing a few examples.

 

But I can list controversial stuff that is NOT horror: Nudity in games or movies, women as lead figures in action movies before the 90ties(?), nazi symbols in german movies. And I can list horror that is NOT controversial: Many ghost stories.

 

And by that I'm showing that controversial is neither required nor indication of horror.

 

Though if we just talk about indications often found in horror, then you are correct. But it isn't a neccessary ingredient at all.

 

(I'm sure I could do the same with edgy, but this word has so many meanings that we first would have to define it)

 

 

About woman in Action Movies -  well it was  controversial in this period. Now RE 1 from 1996 would looks like first game of student not horror game. About ghost stories... uh this is complicated here - some of them yes some of them are parody of horror , while sometimes.... don't have to be horror so this a diffrence - for example Ring or Curse i'm not remeber which one have a book but are both pretty egdy and controversial ( for this period), parody of horror -"upiór w ruderze" ( there is not english transation of this book). Non horror ghost story you could find as kids/teens books or hm... way of writing diary (ghosts talking about their past in cementary - i don't remember name of this books but i know that books get movie version too). So yes controversial stuff can be everywhere but  it's typical trope in horror.

 

This hard to define what mean edgy : Let's take F.e.a.r as example - this horror FPS about girl killed by his father during experiment to create super soldiers - some scenes can be pretty edge - one of the brothers killed in very brutal way soldiers during time vision, Alma (ghost girl) killing soldier in very brutal way, visions of past, lore. In outcast 2.... well this game is edgy soo much - you can check gameplay or wiki if you want. Fnaf - well you have to defence against ghost of killed kids  well this same thing in poppy playtime ( diffrence is that in Fnaf there is a killer while in poppy kids became monster after ressurection experiment), Sillent hill - to not spoling too much - background of our character can be rly edgy and you can find "sign" of this for example - piramidhead maneque scene. Clock tower - for example two of ghost are people who were killed by put in acid barrel ( you see this scene as vision), Days gone - suiciders in universcity , freaks group, zombie kids.  NZA - a lot of gore corpses, pentagrams everywhere but not in "parody style" but in "serious" style ( at least in 1&2). Cry of fear - mental issues, drugs addict, social pathology, enemy design and symbolism ( i know i wrote very general but hm... you can check on wiki ). A plague tale - rat eating people alive, battlefield ( yes it's realistic but hm... it can looks edgy  you compire to  for example cod)

So this is just example what mean edgy but it's hard to define because line between edgy and not edgy can be fluid -  you can make burning someone  on stake alive scene very edgy or very save

Edited October 15, 2022 by Matt115 (see edit history)

[Riamus]

I think we're are using different definitions if edgy.  It sounds like you're using the definition meaning tense, while I'm using it as being basically at the front of change it new ideas.  The way I was meaning it, death, blood, gore, murder, suicide are so common as to not be edgy.  Now that I see how you mean the word, yes, most horror would be edgy.

 

In terms of controversial, I suppose that can often be true as so many people consider horror aspects controversial.  After all, one of the more censored/banned books in the US was written for kids... Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark.  I read it as a kid around 11 or so and I loved the book.  😁

[Matt115]

1 hour ago, Riamus said:

I think we're are using different definitions if edgy.  It sounds like you're using the definition meaning tense, while I'm using it as being basically at the front of change it new ideas.  The way I was meaning it, death, blood, gore, murder, suicide are so common as to not be edgy.  Now that I see how you mean the word, yes, most horror would be edgy.

 

In terms of controversial, I suppose that can often be true as so many people consider horror aspects controversial.  After all, one of the more censored/banned books in the US was written for kids... Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark.  I read it as a kid around 11 or so and I loved the book.  😁

Well depends - let's take burning on stake scene from Witcher 3 and from wicked witch ( new indie fps) . In witcher 3 or the little hope is much more "mild" that in wicked witch

Edited October 15, 2022 by Matt115 (see edit history)

[DanLW]

Yes, the game has horror elements IMO.  Sure, it it isn't hard-core, but it is definitely there, so I would say that the "horror" of "survival horror" is fulfilled.

 

I think there could be things done that wouldn't require big code overhauls to make the game a bit more scary. 

 

1.  Have LESS zombies in POIs.  For example, if perhaps 1 in 10 POIs had a single strong zombie, that might actually be more scary.  Right now the norm is go into a POI, expect zombies, clear zombies, loot.  It is expected and therefore not scary.  If empty POIs were the norm, then it would be more unexpected (and therefore scarier) when that one zombie bursts out, especially if POI zombies are buffed to be strong hard-hitting zeds. ... I should try this... I suppose the XML could be edited to achieve just this.  Drastically reduce POI zombie spawn percentage, but make the zombies that do spawn a high gamestage.  This could go well with Roland's 0XP mod, since killing zeds is the main source of XP.

 

2.  More random creepy ambience sounds.  Especially at night.  Rustling sounds that could be mistaken for footsteps.  Distant screams.  Even odd or out of place sounds like a distant cough, sneeze or bike horn.

 

3.  The zombie bear should do a lot more block damage.  It is too easy to kill through the wall.  These things should one-shot doors and wood blocks and knock down cobble in a few shots.  Concrete and steel should be the only things that slow them down.

 

4.  Ok, this would require some code, but a hidden sanity attribute that works based off a calculation of hunger, thirst, infection level, injury level, intoxication, and time of day.  Causes zombie growls to occasionally play even though no zombie is there.  (The music system is there... just mod a version of it to play sounds) Quick moving shadows with nothing there.  Could also spawn instant zombie horde that takes no damage and despawns the instant one hits.  (The horde should sometimes be real, or easily mistakable for a POI horde to keep us on our toes)

 

[Jost Amman]

1 hour ago, DanLW said:

4.  Ok, this would require some code, but a hidden sanity attribute that works based off a calculation of hunger, thirst, infection level, injury level, intoxication, and time of day.  Causes zombie growls to occasionally play even though no zombie is there.  (The music system is there... just mod a version of it to play sounds) Quick moving shadows with nothing there.  Could also spawn instant zombie horde that takes no damage and despawns the instant one hits.  (The horde should sometimes be real, or easily mistakable for a POI horde to keep us on our toes)

+1 

[Roland]

We've discussed sanity in the past and just like spoilage it seems to divide the community pretty evenly into haters and lovers of the feature. I'd be for both features as the more things to manage is awesome in my book but there seem to be plenty who just look at sanity and spoilage as just more unfun grindy mechanics.

 

Sanity, wellness, food spoilage, degrading tools and weapons, withering crops-- bring it all on, uh, modders...

[Old Crow]

On 10/11/2022 at 4:37 AM, Matt115 said:

 

Claim 13 - well.. screamer and demolishion zombie are some type of bosses.

I wouldn't consider either to be boss zombies at all, especially since you can have multiple show up at once and they go down fairly easily. There simply aren't any boss zombies and likely won't be. Would be nice if there were, but the one boss zombie, the Behemoth, was abandoned for reasons unknown to me.

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, Old Crow said:

I wouldn't consider either to be boss zombies at all, especially since you can have multiple show up at once and they go down fairly easily. There simply aren't any boss zombies and likely won't be. Would be nice if there were, but the one boss zombie, the Behemoth, was abandoned for reasons unknown to me.

 

"go down fairly easily" is relative to the abilities of a player. Vanilla is supposed to be the intro-game for new players and they will surely often get their bases destroyed by demos.

 

How do you know the behemoth would have more HP and armor than the demo? Do you know more than me (which is entirely possible, I could be unaware or forgetting ideas madmole was posting a long time ago) ? Or are you just projecting your own idea of what the behemoth would be into the discussion?

Case in point, the behemoths modders have re-enabled seem to me often to be at about the same level as the demo.

 

If you want to know the reason the behemoth was abandoned, just ask. Someone would have told you that it was because of clipping/movement problems TFP did not want to accept.

Edited October 21, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

4 hours ago, Old Crow said:

There simply aren't any boss zombies and likely won't be.

Well... excluding Grace.