Base building reset to default after trader quest.

[tommaguzzi]

Single player survival in pregen 6k. I completed a trader quest in the same building I had built my base. When I next returned it had reset to default and my base was gone.

[Laz Man]

Did you have a bedroll or landclaim placed down in your base?  When placed, I believe it is supposed to prevent anyone from questing (resetting) the location when they click on the Rally point.

[Crater Creator]

It’s expected that the POI will reset when you activate the quest marker (on site) to begin the quest. The inherent problem is that the game can’t know when your base is a base, and when it’s just some incidental modifications you made to a POI, like laying down a couple of frames. That’s why it relies on the player to manually place the land claim or bedroll, to declare the space that should be protected from resetting.

 

Hopefully this isn’t too much of a tangent… On the subject of POI resets, a change I favor is to activate the quest automatically once you step onto the property, with no manually triggered quest marker. There would instead be a hard to miss screen effect/notification as you approach the boundary line (which shouldn’t be too annoying, as it would only apply to the active quest POI that’s already highlighted on the map and compass).

 

Most notably, this would curtail the opportunity to ‘double dip’, where you do the whole quest once unofficially without hitting the marker, and then immediately do it again by triggering the quest to reset the POI. That throws off the balance, because unlike a player that quests without using this gimmick, you have the zombie & loot locations fresh in your mind, and you get to skip travel time and a loot respawn timer.

 

People naturally grow fond of things they find that give them an advantage, so someone reading this will think, “If you don’t like double dipping, just don’t do it.” But just because it makes sense for a player to leverage an advantage the game provides, it doesn’t mean that that advantage is intentional or balanced.

[Riamus]

1 hour ago, Crater Creator said:

Hopefully this isn’t too much of a tangent… On the subject of POI resets, a change I favor is to activate the quest automatically once you step onto the property, with no manually triggered quest marker. There would instead be a hard to miss screen effect/notification as you approach the boundary line (which shouldn’t be too annoying, as it would only apply to the active quest POI that’s already highlighted on the map and compass).

 

Most notably, this would curtail the opportunity to ‘double dip’, where you do the whole quest once unofficially without hitting the marker, and then immediately do it again by triggering the quest to reset the POI. That throws off the balance, because unlike a player that quests without using this gimmick, you have the zombie & loot locations fresh in your mind, and you get to skip travel time and a loot respawn timer.

I understand what you are saying about double dipping.  I admit to doing that myself for certain things that might be either outside or just inside a quest POI before starting the quest.  I don't mind removing the ability to do that if that is what they want to do.  However, I don't like the idea of automatically starting a quest considering you fail if you leave the area.

 

Here are some situations where this is a problem...

 

You have multiple quests (multiple traders or more often the open trade path what and a regular quest from that trader) and go past one of them to reach the next.  It automatically starts as you get there and then you either are stuck doing it or else fail it because you want to go to the other one.  Note that this also affects if you are trying to go do something else while holding a quest as well and happen to go past your quest area.  And it will affect multiplayer shared quests as well if you have a shared quests and your own quest.  You can't just have it affect current quest either because otherwise people will just unmark the quest, double dip, and remark it.

 

There may be a way to prevent double dipping, but auto starting quests is a bad idea if you fail when leaving the area.

 

I think this is a minor issue anyhow.  It can only be done once per loot reset and any destructible loot items like salvaged cars or construction materials won't reset except after you start a quest, so you can only double dip those once per POI per game.  So it isn't too major.  Lot containers resetting isn't a big deal except for the loot room at the end.  And again, since it is once per loot reset, I still don't think it's much of a problem.

Edited September 18, 2022 by Riamus (see edit history)

[SylenThunder]

2 hours ago, Riamus said:

I understand what you are saying about double dipping.  I admit to doing that myself for certain things that might be either outside or just inside a quest POI before starting the quest.  I don't mind removing the ability to do that if that is what they want to do.  However, I don't like the idea of automatically starting a quest considering you fail if you leave the area.

 

Here are some situations where this is a problem...

 

You have multiple quests (multiple traders or more often the open trade path what and a regular quest from that trader) and go past one of them to reach the next.  It automatically starts as you get there and then you either are stuck doing it or else fail it because you want to go to the other one.  Note that this also affects if you are trying to go do something else while holding a quest as well and happen to go past your quest area.  And it will affect multiplayer shared quests as well if you have a shared quests and your own quest.  You can't just have it affect current quest either because otherwise people will just unmark the quest, double dip, and remark it.

 

There may be a way to prevent double dipping, but auto starting quests is a bad idea if you fail when leaving the area.

 

I think this is a minor issue anyhow.  It can only be done once per loot reset and any destructible loot items like salvaged cars or construction materials won't reset except after you start a quest, so you can only double dip those once per POI per game.  So it isn't too major.  Lot containers resetting isn't a big deal except for the loot room at the end.  And again, since it is once per loot reset, I still don't think it's much of a problem.

With distance markers identifying the location before you arrive, this shouldn't be an issue. 

[Blake_]

2 hours ago, SylenThunder said:

With distance markers identifying the location before you arrive, this shouldn't be an issue. 

Still a problem if two POI are very close to each other and both have quests. You might be on a vehicle and not have the quest active and it starts, or if it won't start if you do not activate the marker on your inventory we are back to the same problem.

 

We actually talked about it a long time ago. The closest solution was either use a timer that goes back to start when you exit the questable area or starts the quest if you stay long enough (1 min?), OR:

 

Resetting the POI on quest activation, and then put a marker or a flag: There can be a case in which another player can go in and level the whole POI to the ground and try to break your quest, in which case there will be code in the form of another emergent quest that relays the player to another POI OR even to another target (bandit X escaped and went X, kill him plz or " there is another POI that needs the satchel found, because someone found this one", etc etc).

 

The best way to solve double dipping is having a set of emergent gameplay contingency plans. Everybody would agree on more adventure that makes sense within their own adventures . It's not EXTREMELY difficult to do though: just if your quest objective gets solved or broken before you get there, generate an excuse and relay the player anywhere else for an "emergent gameplay apology quest".

[Riamus]

I'm still not sure why this is a problem with the exception of loot rooms.  Anything else can be looted everywhere, so is it a big deal?  As mentioned, other than the first time through, you cannot double dip any destructible loot like construction materials and salvaged items.  Those are generally the things people would want to double dip on.  And doing it once is not really that big of a deal.

 

Other loot containers are random items that you could find randomly anywhere else, with the exception of bookshelves, medicine shelves/cabinets and mailboxes.  I suppose those could be an issue, but not a significant one.  Other than bookshelves, the others are limited enough in quantity in a POI that they aren't a big deal.  Only bookshelves might be an actual problem and I'm sure something other than auto starting quests can be done to solve that.

 

For loot rooms, all that is needed is to make the containers non-interactive (other than destroying them) except while on a quest.  Easy fix.

 

When it comes down to it, consider that once you know the quest POIs in your game, you could just as easily check what quest is there, not accept it, go loot the POI, drive back and get the quest, then go complete the quest.  Sure, it is a bit more effort since you have to travel, but anyone who really wants to double dip is still going to do so.  No change will prevent that unless you make quest POIs locked to only allow access while on the quest, which isn't a good option at all.

 

Making it so that leaving a quest area doesn't fail the quest but instead restarts you like it does if you exit the game in the middle of a quest would make adding an auto start acceptable, though still not necessary imo.  Not sure why they don't do that already.

 

They could also make it so each container that has been looted within the past 6 game hours can't be looted again even if reset for a quest (not counting quest containers).  The downside is that they have to track everything you loot in the past 6 hours, which isn't ideal.  But it does make it so you aren't as likely to wait to complete the quest for 6 hours just to double dip.  Granted even 6 game hours might not be enough as some higher tier quests may take more that long to compete so you could complete it and then compete it again right away.  Might need a longer time frame.  Still not ideal either way, though.

[Laz Man]

At the end of the day it's probably not worth the time to change/fix.  Double dipping still requires the player to spend the time and storage to loot a POI twice.

 

Not to mention, they are also trading off completing 2 quests versus 1 in the similar time frames.

 

Edit: Now a days. I might double loot some nearby loot containers near the Rally marker but that's it.  There are so many POIs in the game and I rather spend my time seeing all of them instead of doing each and everyone of them twice lol...

 

Edited September 19, 2022 by Laz Man (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

On 9/18/2022 at 1:19 AM, Crater Creator said:

That throws off the balance, because unlike a player that quests without using this gimmick, you have the zombie & loot locations fresh in your mind, and you get to skip travel time and a loot respawn timer.

Unless you have a goldfish memory, you know most of the POIs you get as quests by heart anyway after you've done them a few times. I get the same POIs over and over again as quests to choose from. This problem should be addressed.

[Melange]

1 hour ago, RipClaw said:

This problem should be addressed.

Not really. With all respect, you say folks should not be permitted to take this shortcut! I say play as you will. Don't like it? Then don't MP with them again. And if I am in SP in my own little world, who are you to tell me I shouldn't? The Fun Pimps usually reign in that behaviour with updates if its deemed abusive enough. You can have your opinion, but I am going for that loot room, then I'll activate the quest. 

Edited September 19, 2022 by Melange (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

55 minutes ago, Melange said:

Not really. With all respect, you say folks should not be permitted to take this shortcut! I say play as you will. Don't like it? Then don't MP with them again. And if I am in SP in my own little world, who are you to tell me I shouldn't? The Fun Pimps usually reign in that behaviour with updates if its deemed abusive enough. You can have your opinion, but I am going for that loot room, then I'll activate the quest. 

I have probably been misleading here. I meant the problem that the same POIs are offered again and again as quests because it gets a bit boring if you always get only the same 5 POIs for a quest tier.

 

As for double dipping, I have no problem with that when someone does it. People should play the way they want.

 

Edited September 19, 2022 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[Melange]

17 hours ago, RipClaw said:

the same POIs are offered again and again

Hunkay. You're not alone with that feeling. A21 hopefully will change it so we have more than five to repeat. Gives me more loot rooms to target. Its all good then 🙂

 

Unless the loot rooms are 'randomly' placed within a high tier POI for each quest. That would be an entirely different kettle of fish to contend with 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Melange (see edit history)

[Melange]

23 hours ago, Laz Man said:

At the end of the day it's probably not worth the time to change/fix.  Double dipping still requires the player to spend the time and storage to loot a POI twice.

 

Not to mention, they are also trading off completing 2 quests versus 1 in the similar time frames.

 

Edit: Now a days. I might double loot some nearby loot containers near the Rally marker but that's it.  There are so many POIs in the game and I rather spend my time seeing all of them instead of doing each and everyone of them twice lol...

 

Go for the good stuff. Then if ya have to, place a storage box, then do it again. I usually complete one lower tier Trader task a day, and clear out the next job before accepting the job onsite. I have time, there's no rush. I have more time than resources, so I play this way.

 

Maybe its a trade off...the next Trader job may be dismal compared to the one I can double dip now.

 

I ate my high horse early in the game....so shame doesn't really bother me

Edited September 20, 2022 by Melange (see edit history)

[Rotor]

12 hours ago, Melange said:

 

 

I ate my high horse early in the game....

Lol,

 

What was the rss split?  Well being the Apocalypse, it was probably already a bag of bones :).

[Melange]

3 hours ago, Rotor said:

Lol,

 

What was the rss split?  Well being the Apocalypse, it was probably already a bag of bones :).

Lol. A few thin leather hides, a handfull of meat that I threw into my food box and the old mare did have long legs good for making a lot of glue. 

 

Now, being at the same eye level as everyone else, I am not in a position to look down upon anyone's playstyle. It just so happens that I'm rather fond of cheese. I can't craft it, but I certainly will go after it when I'm a bit peckish. If the cheese isn't too runny 🧀. Or the cat's not eaten it. 🙀

 

 

[Riamus]

On 9/19/2022 at 6:09 AM, Melange said:

Unless the loot rooms are 'randomly' placed within a high tier POI for each quest. That would be an entirely different kettle of fish to contend with 

I would love to see some randomness in containers and loot rooms.  Zombies are already somewhat randomized in that it will select only some of the possible zombies each time unless the POI is set to see all possible zombies.  Having things like cabinets be randomly open or closed, having multiple possible loot room locations with only one chosen, having crates appear in only some of the possible locations so, like zombies, each run is a little different.

 

Since it's already being done for zombies, the code is already there and mostly it is just copy and paste with some limited changes to handle the different objects. Of course, each POI would have to be updated and that takes much more time.  It would still be nice, though.

Edited September 21, 2022 by Riamus (see edit history)

[zztong]

37 minutes ago, Riamus said:

I would love to see some randomness in containers and loot rooms. ... [cut] ... Having things like cabinets be randomly open or closed, having multiple possible loot room locations with only one chosen, having crates appear in only some of the possible locations so, like zombies, each run is a little different.

 

Helper blocks randomize cabinets and cupboards being open, among a number of other things. This is very common in POIs, however I suspect this randomization is only done during world generation and probably when a POI is placed by the World Builder, but I never use the World Builder so I don't know.

 

POIs can use A20's "Parts" feature to randomize all sorts of things. Again, I suspect this randomization is only done during world generation. Resetting POIs with Parts, such as when you start a quest, seems to only reset the POI back to what was in the world file. I've no idea what the World Builder might do with Parts. I suspect it ignores them, but I'm just guessing.

 

Randomizing loot rooms is sort-of possible with Parts. The trouble is, while RWG will only pick one Part with a specific tag, each Part's chance of appearance is evaluated separately so you could end up with a situation where none of the Parts get selected. If you're into probability math you can kind of get close to 100%, but not guarantee it. -- Basically, there's no for-certain way to say "Pick 1 of these 5."

 

In short, POIs aren't lacking in tools to express randomness, but I don't know that the randomization happens frequently enough for your goals.

[Riamus]

That's interesting to know.  It has seemed like everything was always the same in a game and it sounds like although things can be randomized at creation, they are not within a game.  Still partially useful in making games differ from one another even if they don't keep a game changing throughout play.

[Melange]

3 hours ago, zztong said:

Resetting POIs with Parts, such as when you start a quest, seems to only reset the POI back to what was in the world file.

Yeah, I was thinking along the lines of making double-dipping a bit more challenging. Once the POI is reset there wouldn't be a guarantee of the loot room being in the same location within the building. I can see why its not as straight forward to implement as I envision, but its a thought.

[Melange]

6 hours ago, Melange said:

Yeah, I was thinking along the lines of making double-dipping a bit more challenging. Once the POI is reset there wouldn't be a guarantee of the loot room being in the same location within the building. I can see why its not as straight forward to implement as I envision, but its a thought.

Yet not all POI resets revert to the initial layout. Sometimes a wall safe hidden behind a picture frame won't be there after a reset. Couldn't tell ya what particular POI's have that minor glitch, but I've experienced it quite a few times.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Melange (see edit history)

[zztong]

3 hours ago, Melange said:

Yet not all POI resets revert to the initial layout. Sometimes a wall safe hidden behind a picture frame won't be there after a reset. Couldn't tell ya what particular POI's have that minor glitch, but I've experienced it quite a few times.

 

That's a "Helper" block... Picture with the possibility of a safe behind it, sometimes just a picture. That suggests you'd see things like cabinets changing if they're open, or not too.

[meganoth]

AFAIK helper blocks like cabinets, safes, vending machines (or in previous alphas) workstations are randomly set up when you start a quest, just like zombies.

 

I distinctly remember that when workstations could still be found working or non-working in a previous alpha that I stopped reseting the POI for quest when a workstation I needed was working at the moment.

 

 

 

Edited September 22, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[theFlu]

36 minutes ago, meganoth said:

AFAIK helper blocks like cabinets, safes, vending machines (or in previous alphas) workstations are randomly set up when you start a quest, just like zombies.

I don't think that's the case for any of those atm (although I haven't played 20.6). They're set at world creation - or at least based directly on world seed. Safes in paintings seem random, and I can't say I've looked at cabinets all that closely, but vending machines for sure. Early A20 I was trying to reset a broken vendo, but it never did, so I did quite a few quests in the same place over time; after a few times I realized nothing else in there ever changed either.

[meganoth]

32 minutes ago, theFlu said:

I don't think that's the case for any of those atm (although I haven't played 20.6). They're set at world creation - or at least based directly on world seed. Safes in paintings seem random, and I can't say I've looked at cabinets all that closely, but vending machines for sure. Early A20 I was trying to reset a broken vendo, but it never did, so I did quite a few quests in the same place over time; after a few times I realized nothing else in there ever changed either.

 

Vending machines might be special case because I think they decreased the probability of finding a working vending machine greatly. So even with 5 or 10 quests in the same POI you can't be really sure whether it is random. I might do a test later today with cabinets.

 

Edited September 22, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[theFlu]

5 minutes ago, meganoth said:

So even with 5 or 10 quests in the same POI you can't be really sure whether it is random.

Quite possible. I did at least 5, a few before I realized I know the state of all the loot containers by heart, and a couple after to confirm. A test would be great though!