Are the Devs just dumb?

[Matt115]

26 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

What nonsense.

 

https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Official_Add-ons_(Skyrim)

 

Did the avaliabilty of mods prevent Bethesda from producing addons? No.

 

And since one of your other complaints is about graphics and style: Are there mods that improve the visuals of Bethesda games or add stuff in the same style? Yes.

 

 

And since one of your other complaints is about hardcore:Are there mods that make 7D2D massively more difficult? Yes. 

 

 

 

And another point: 7D2D 2 won't need 10 years of development. They will not start from zero, they will most likely start with 7D2D and just add features they didn't have time for to include in 7D2D.

 

 

Big story short- were Skyrim sold the best during released period? -  consoles. Did consols had mods in this period? no. 

 

"And since one of your other complaints is about graphics and style: Are there mods that improve the visuals of Bethesda games or add stuff in the same style? Yes." Well that's true - like immersive creatures , armored skeletons. a lot of armor, npc mods etc. Did 7dtd have such mods ? no. If there will be such mods in future? probably not.

 

"Are there mods that make 7D2D massively more difficult? Yes. " Yes. But did TFP change hardcore mechanics into casual? Yes. If this influence on playbase, types of mods, visual artstyle etc? yes.

 

"And another point: 7D2D 2 won't need 10 years of development. They will not start from zero, they will most likely start with 7D2D and just add features they didn't have time for to include in 7D2D." Small sec... here we go Mount and blade - 2008, Warband 2010 ( warband is very expended M&B but using this same engine most this same assets etc.), Mount and blade Bannerlord - 2020 early access 2022 final version --> 10 years. 

So  - 7DTD is very moddable so people won't buy 7dtd 2 if there only few features will be added - it has to be higher tier of quality right? But this mean time. Now if i good remember - they are working on 2 - 3 games - we don't know anything about this game so it's hard to say how big this game will be - this can be something small like 'Wicked"  or "Cult of the lamb" or big like well... 7dtd or terraria

[JCrook1028]

14 hours ago, Matt115 said:

game was hardcore and TFP decided to make it casual. And mods won't solve this problem.

Lmao, that's so far from the truth it's comical. Have you even played an overhaul mod?

2 hours ago, Matt115 said:

They will not start from zero, they will most likely start with 7D2D and just add features they didn't have time for to include in 7D2D."

Yes they've said they're probably going to make a 7dtd 2. But they've also said the next game is NOT 7dtd2. They're actually working on 3 different games atm.

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, Matt115 said:

Big story short- were Skyrim sold the best during released period? -  consoles. Did consols had mods in this period? no. 

 

Will 7D2D be on consoles too? Yes.

 

You really seem to forget that you yourself put so much importance on "official" DLCs/expansions or a 7D2D 2 being better that you would surely buy it from TFP. So would I because as you said a DLC or expansion or 7D2D part 2 from TFP would automatically be canon. And it will be canon for a lot of mods as well because they probably want to use features newly introduced in such a DLC.

 

Just as a simple example: If TFP added a few workstations, legendary weapons and 1-2 new quest types. Would anyone buy such a DLC or expansion after the supply of new alphas had dried out after release? Certainly. Would the work to do that take more than 1 or 2 typical alphas now? Surely not. 

 

3 hours ago, Matt115 said:

 

"And since one of your other complaints is about graphics and style: Are there mods that improve the visuals of Bethesda games or add stuff in the same style? Yes." Well that's true - like immersive creatures , armored skeletons. a lot of armor, npc mods etc. Did 7dtd have such mods ? no. If there will be such mods in future? probably not.

 

At the moment TFP has a lot of support for modders who add xml changes but nearly no support for graphics mods. This depends very much on what TFP adds there in the future. But I suspect steamworks support alone will already improve the situation as it allows easier copying of whatever mods the server has installed to clients. 

 

3 hours ago, Matt115 said:

 

"Are there mods that make 7D2D massively more difficult? Yes. " Yes. But did TFP change hardcore mechanics into casual? Yes. If this influence on playbase, types of mods, visual artstyle etc? yes.

 

Sure, but according to your theory you yourself wouldn't be here anymore, right? (EDIT: As I haven't played anything before A15 I can't say anything about whether earlier games were more hardcore or not, I'll just assume they were for this discussion)

 

And had 7D2D been "casual" all the time then no harcore players would ever have played the game and stayed with it in your theory. Now at least you can assume hardcore players exist who pine for old times.

 

But lets look at Bethesda again, their games were never ever hardcore. Do you really want to tell me there is no hardcore mod for Skyrim or Oblivion?

 

https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/2430

 

https://gamerant.com/skyrim-hardest-difficulty-mods-ranked/

 

Sure, anything harder than vanilla can be called hardcore even if it isn't much and in your theory we are starting at the casual bottom. I won't test them out to find out if I'm right or wrong, but lets at least agree that there will be mods for 7D2D as well that add some "hardcoreness" 

 

EDIT: And as Kosmic Kerman reminds me we already have harcore mods for 7D2D. You might not like those mods for other aspects (like uneven style or new magic zombies) but that doesn't change the fact that hardcore mods exist, right now.

 

3 hours ago, Matt115 said:

 

"And another point: 7D2D 2 won't need 10 years of development. They will not start from zero, they will most likely start with 7D2D and just add features they didn't have time for to include in 7D2D." Small sec... here we go Mount and blade - 2008, Warband 2010 ( warband is very expended M&B but using this same engine most this same assets etc.), Mount and blade Bannerlord - 2020 early access 2022 final version --> 10 years. 

So  - 7DTD is very moddable so people won't buy 7dtd 2 if there only few features will be added - it has to be higher tier of quality right? But this mean time. Now if i good remember - they are working on 2 - 3 games - we don't know anything about this game so it's hard to say how big this game will be - this can be something small like 'Wicked"  or "Cult of the lamb" or big like well... 7dtd or terraria

 

M&B to Warband was just 2 years because they used the same engine and most assets. Voila. And did Warband sell well? While we don't know, player satisfaction with Warband seemes to be great and they released 2 DLCs for it so it can't have been a failure.

 

What else does your example tell us? That it can take from 2 to 10 years for another version. Sure, if TFP really thinks they need to make a new engine for 7D2D then yes, they will need a lot more than 2 years.

 

Higher tier of quality? Do you think that warband was made with a lower tier of quality? If not and they did warband in the same quality as Mount&Blade, why did it take them only 2 years? And why couldn't TFP do the same?

 

Yes, they are working on more than one game. As you probably know that is very normal to have designers switch to designing the next game while the previous game is still in production. And we know they hired new staff for some unknown game in the unreal engine, so it is not impossible but also not likely that it will influence development on 7D2D.

Whether all of this leads to less developers for 7D2D 2 we don't know, but TFP has all the cards in their hands. If they want the same team and team size on 7D2D 2, there is nothing preventing them.

 

Edited September 6, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Kosmic Kerman]

15 hours ago, Matt115 said:

Older alpha were looking like typical hardcore game. If checks games from 2013-2015 you will see that... 7dtd was like hardcore MC. meal smell, food spoiling , low visibilty. and looking how another alpha looked it was like "easier 3D project zomboid in early stage". Now 7dtd is casual game becaus people wanted to make more things simpler or easier. If TFP decided stick to "hardcore" vision from this period - community of this game would be much smaller, probably diffrent mods would be created and totaly have diffrent opinion. But they decided guys who wanted to make this game easier - probably because more casual game = more players

 

I was just thinking about some functionality in A15 while playing earlier today  - carrying raw meat drawing zombies and unharvested carcasses drawing screamers. My understanding is that these things were not removed to the make the game "simpler" or "easier". Smell was removed because the code behind those functions was overhauled and my understanding is that there was no clean way to make them work with the new code. Fatal has repeatedly talked about how some of the underlying code was not fantastic. If the loss of zombie smell is the cost of more performant code, I think that loss is well worth the reward. Questing and sleeper zombies have, for me, made the game much more enjoyable and have increased its replayability.

 

As to your claim that mods cannot add complexity or make the game more "hardcore," that's ridiculous.  For example, Ravenhearst adds back many of the elements removed since A15 and adds several layers of grind and abstraction on top of those.   

[pApA^LeGBa]

15 hours ago, Matt115 said:

That's wasn't my point. My point was that game was hardcore and TFP decided to make it casual. And mods won't solve this problem.

 

 

So basically what you are saying with this, is that you never played any overhaul mod. Playing War3zuk right now, day 9. I don´t go out at night. No effin way, not even close to having enough ammo and skills for that. And everything i do during the day i constantly stop doing it to look around so that i don´t get ambushed by a freaking giant radiated demolisher. It´s awesome.

Edited September 6, 2022 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Matt115]

49 minutes ago, JCrook1028 said:

Lmao, that's so far from the truth it's comical. Have you even played an overhaul mod?

Yes they've said they're probably going to make a 7dtd 2. But they've also said the next game is NOT 7dtd2. They're actually working on 3 different games atm.

No i think you just don't want to agree that for example that A11 was much harder that A20

Yes. So that's why i wrote there is at least 10 years to want for 7dtd.

30 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Will 7D2D be on consoles too? Yes.

 

You really seem to forget that you yourself put so much importance on "official" DLCs/expansions or a 7D2D 2 being better that you would surely buy it from TFP. So would I because as you said a DLC or expansion or 7D2D part 2 from TFP would automatically be canon. And it will be canon for a lot of mods as well because they probably want to use features newly introduced in such a DLC.

 

Just as a simple example: If TFP added a few workstations, legendary weapons and 1-2 new quest types. Would anyone buy such a DLC or expansion after the supply of new alphas had dried out after release? Certainly. Would the work to do that take more than 1 or 2 typical alphas now? Surely not. 

 

Yes. But 7dtd is "console focused"? no.

It was many years ago but still i remember that a lot of things were simplifed ( types of magic) because it was more for consoles players ( probably you remember that most multiplatforms game were much simple that Pc only games).

Ok this depends on price 10$? No.

1$ for such dlc?  yes this not to much. Well everything depends on DLC quality - HOI4 is good example ---> some of them are good some of them are.... terrible at least.

 

31 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Sure, but according to your theory you yourself wouldn't be here anymore, right? (EDIT: As I haven't played anything before A15 I can't say anything about whether earlier games were more hardcore or not, I'll just assume they were for this discussion)

 

And had 7D2D been "casual" all the time then no harcore players would ever have played the game and stayed with it in your theory. Now at least you can assume hardcore players exist who pine for old times.

 

But lets look at Bethesda again, their games were never ever hardcore. Do you really want to tell me there is no hardcore mod for Skyrim or Oblivion?

 

https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/2430

 

https://gamerant.com/skyrim-hardest-difficulty-mods-ranked/

 

Sure, anything harder than vanilla can be called hardcore even if it isn't much and in your theory we are starting at the casual bottom. I won't test them out to find out if I'm right or wrong, but lets at least agree that there will be mods for 7D2D as well that add some "hardcoreness" 

 

EDIT: And as Kosmic Kerman reminds me we already have harcore mods for 7D2D. You might not like those mods for other aspects (like uneven style or new magic zombies) but that doesn't change the fact that hardcore mods exist, right now.

 

A lot of people likes to play both types of game right? so i think hardcore players at least some of them would to play in 7DTD but it would be like "so guys we made optimal fabric in factorio. Maybe now few hours in 7dtd to releax?" But probably woudn't write that 7dtd should be hardcore etc. maybe someone will just start topic : "Hey devs : maybe  Project zomboid in 3D in future" and that's all. 

Mistake - daggerfall were pretty hardcore. And is considered as one of the most hard RPG but.... in this same time of the most bugged like a vampire the maquerade.

 

"Sure, anything harder than vanilla can be called hardcore even if it isn't much and in your theory we are starting at the casual bottom. I won't test them out to find out if I'm right or wrong, but lets at least agree that there will be mods for 7D2D as well that add some "hardcoreness" " - my friend was playing with some hardcore mods and were good. nothing to complain. If i good remember some of them were "added" later as offical option into skyrim.

 

"EDIT: And as Kosmic Kerman reminds me we already have harcore mods for 7D2D. You might not like those mods for other aspects (like uneven style or new magic zombies) but that doesn't change the fact that hardcore mods exist, right now." Harder don't mean hardcore this is a little bit diffrent - if you add zombie with 100000 hp it will be hard but not hardcore -if you add vehicles with 20 diffrent parts --> this would be hardcore

 

32 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

M&B to Warband was just 2 years because they used the same engine and most assets. Voila. And did Warband sell well? While we don't know, player satisfaction with Warband seemes to be great and they released 2 DLCs for it so it can't have been a failure.

 

What else does your example tell us? That it can take from 2 to 10 years for another version. Sure, if TFP really thinks they need to make a new engine for 7D2D then yes, they will need a lot more than 2 years.

 

Higher tier of quality? Do you think that warband was made with a lower tier of quality? If not and they did warband in the same quality as Mount&Blade, why did it take them only 2 years? And why couldn't TFP do the same?

 

Yes, they are working on more than one game. As you probably know that is very normal to have designers switch to designing the next game while the previous game is still in production. And we know they hired new staff for some unknown game in the unreal engine, so it is not impossible but also not likely that it will influence development on 7D2D.

Whether all of this leads to less developers for 7D2D 2 we don't know, but TFP has all the cards in their hands. If they want the same team and team size on 7D2D 2, there is nothing preventing them.

 

Yep... well it was 2010 so... i bought witcher and witcher enchanted edition so... yes?

About DLC --> wrong there is more of them.  Mount and blade with fire and sword but became comercial project like CS . While "pirates"dlc... hard to say - i found serval let say not totaly comfirmed information. but naopleon and viking sold pretty bad if i good remember .

 

Mount and blade was made in "pre Early access" period. So - it was a way to earn enough money to make more... 1.5 version. - i think if this game would be created now ,warband would be just dlc.  This was period when not everyone have internet and kickstarted wasn't popular. So yeah this was totaly normal. This same thing was with few diffrent games from this period.

So why TFP  can't do this same? because well mods are now popular - this is not 2010 anymore where not everyone had internet. 

 

About last one - i used 3 years per one 1 game because honestly this is hard to say how big will be new games so -->3 games X 3 years = 9 years 

 

 

 

32 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

 

So basically what you are saying with this, is that you never played any overhaul mod. Playing War3zuk right now, day 9. I don´t go out at night. No effin way, not even close to having enough ammo and skills for that. And everything i do during the day i constantly stop doing it to look around so that i don´t get ambushed by a freaking giant radiated demolisher. It´s awesome.

 

Mods don't solve this problem because problem was totaly change of vision.  I saw gameplays , i bought hardcore game but then it was change into casual game. That's what i mean.

[Kosmic Kerman]

2 hours ago, Matt115 said:

snip

I can't follow your line of argument. First you say that 7dtd isn't "hardcore" enough and this can't be fixed by mods. Now you seem to acknowledge that there are "hardcore" mods.  How do you square this circle?  Is your argument that the Devs don't share your vision of what the game should be?  And what exactly is it that you want?

[Matt115]

2 minutes ago, Kosmic Kerman said:

I can't follow your line of argument. First you say that 7dtd isn't "hardcore" enough and this can't be fixed by mods. Now you seem to acknowledge that there are "hardcore" mods.  How do you square this circle?  Is your argument that the Devs don't share your vision of what the game should be?  And what exactly is it that you want?

I want when they annouced new game say if they target is make casual or hardcore game, with darker setting or more positive. that's what i want to know exactly what to expect

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

I want when they annouced new game say if they target is make casual or hardcore game, with darker setting or more positive. that's what i want to know exactly what to expect

 

You get that when you don't buy into EA.

 

[Matt115]

12 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

You get that when you don't buy into EA.

 

Somehow i bought bannerlord 2 , medieval dynasty , call to arms and... from begining this game were very similiar ( i mean no simpliciations just add new stuff, balance and expending existing ones) to final version

[meganoth]

5 hours ago, Matt115 said:

 

 

 

1$ for such dlc?  yes this not to much. Well everything depends on DLC quality - HOI4 is good example ---> some of them are good some of them are.... terrible at least.

 

1$? You should wait for a steam sale some years later then 😉

 

5 hours ago, Matt115 said:

 

A lot of people likes to play both types of game right? so i think hardcore players at least some of them would to play in 7DTD but it would be like "so guys we made optimal fabric in factorio. Maybe now few hours in 7dtd to releax?" But probably woudn't write that 7dtd should be hardcore etc. maybe someone will just start topic : "Hey devs : maybe  Project zomboid in 3D in future" and that's all. 

Mistake - daggerfall were pretty hardcore. And is considered as one of the most hard RPG but.... in this same time of the most bugged like a vampire the maquerade.

 

"Sure, anything harder than vanilla can be called hardcore even if it isn't much and in your theory we are starting at the casual bottom. I won't test them out to find out if I'm right or wrong, but lets at least agree that there will be mods for 7D2D as well that add some "hardcoreness" " - my friend was playing with some hardcore mods and were good. nothing to complain. If i good remember some of them were "added" later as offical option into skyrim.

 

"EDIT: And as Kosmic Kerman reminds me we already have harcore mods for 7D2D. You might not like those mods for other aspects (like uneven style or new magic zombies) but that doesn't change the fact that hardcore mods exist, right now." Harder don't mean hardcore this is a little bit diffrent - if you add zombie with 100000 hp it will be hard but not hardcore -if you add vehicles with 20 diffrent parts --> this would be hardcore

 

I would call this hardcore crafting, but there is at least hardcore survival as a category as well, and I'm sure hardcore survival has nothing to do with 20 part vehicles. I'm very sure there are hardcore sims and hardcore shooters. Maybe Factorio could be called a hardcore construction game.

 

Maybe you should simply say that hardcore for you is only complexity. Not everyone will agree to your definition, but lets say it is. We have at least one mod that has more complex crafting by the way,  Undead Legacy.

 

5 hours ago, Matt115 said:

 

Yep... well it was 2010 so... i bought witcher and witcher enchanted edition so... yes?

About DLC --> wrong there is more of them.  Mount and blade with fire and sword but became comercial project like CS . While "pirates"dlc... hard to say - i found serval let say not totaly comfirmed information. but naopleon and viking sold pretty bad if i good remember .

 

Mount and blade was made in "pre Early access" period. So - it was a way to earn enough money to make more... 1.5 version. - i think if this game would be created now ,warband would be just dlc.  This was period when not everyone have internet and kickstarted wasn't popular. So yeah this was totaly normal. This same thing was with few diffrent games from this period.

5 hours ago, Matt115 said:

So why TFP  can't do this same? because well mods are now popular - this is not 2010 anymore where not everyone had internet. 

 

Strange, you often complain that modders can't do this and can't do that and now your opinion seems to be that modders can do everything TFP can and everything you may want will be provided by modders. What now?

 

TFP has the whole code to tinker with where most modders can just change the xml and only a small group of modders is able to change anything below that. Have you seen any mods adding new quest types lately? I haven't. And TFP is canon, a mod by TFP that adds legendary weapons will set the standard even if there are mods that also add legendary weapons.

 

5 hours ago, Matt115 said:

 

About last one - i used 3 years per one 1 game because honestly this is hard to say how big will be new games so -->3 games X 3 years = 9 years 

 

I know so little about their future plans that I hesitate to make any guesses besides repeating that they have two teams now, and usually that means at least two games are made in parallel and at specific times even 3 or 4 because of pipelining.

 

Quote

Mods don't solve this problem because problem was totaly change of vision.  I saw gameplays , i bought hardcore game but then it was change into casual game. That's what i mean.

 

Didn't you imply hardcore for you is complexity? 7D2D was never complex (from what little I know about past versions). It may have been somewhat harder to play, had more grind and a more awkward user interface, but thats it. Oh yes, and it was darker.

 

40 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Somehow i bought bannerlord 2 , medieval dynasty , call to arms and... from begining this game were very similiar ( i mean no simpliciations just add new stuff, balance and expending existing ones) to final version

 

Which of these games had real EA (with emphasis on Alpha) instead of the usual beta test phase?

Edited September 6, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Roland]

On 9/5/2022 at 11:01 PM, pApA^LeGBa said:

Mythical development time poll? Are you serious now? That was a thing. Still in the old forum though.

 

Mythical in the sense that it actually mattered and is the real reason Alphas take a year apiece. If you think the Pimps take so long for each alpha simply because a poll locked them into it then you are deluding yourself. If the poll had gone the other way, we would still be in the same place today regardless.

[unholyjoe]

25 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

Mythical ..... If the poll had gone the other way, we would still be in the same place today regardless.

 

[Matt115]

16 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

1$? You should wait for a steam sale some years later then 😉

 

My small mistake - bordelands weapons +  higher level limit cost 4 $.  So 1 legendary weapon for each category as pack probably would cost 3-4 $.

16 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

I would call this hardcore crafting, but there is at least hardcore survival as a category as well, and I'm sure hardcore survival has nothing to do with 20 part vehicles. I'm very sure there are hardcore sims and hardcore shooters. Maybe Factorio could be called a hardcore construction game.

 

Maybe you should simply say that hardcore for you is only complexity. Not everyone will agree to your definition, but lets say it is. We have at least one mod that has more complex crafting by the way,  Undead Legacy.

 

 I checked Undead legacy and.. it have hardcore crafing  honestly thx for that.

Hardcore sims...  you mean medieval dynasty for example? Yes it's hardcore game in longer time - managment workers , motivate them need a lot of time. So yes - start can be easy but rest of game can be hardcore similiar to terraria. I gave example of hardcore shooters - arma and then you have tons of diffrent types of ammo, even similiar looking gun for casual person can have much diffrent ammo type ETC.

 

16 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Strange, you often complain that modders can't do this and can't do that and now your opinion seems to be that modders can do everything TFP can and everything you may want will be provided by modders. What now?

 

TFP has the whole code to tinker with where most modders can just change the xml and only a small group of modders is able to change anything below that. Have you seen any mods adding new quest types lately? I haven't. And TFP is canon, a mod by TFP that adds legendary weapons will set the standard even if there are mods that also add legendary weapons.

If i remember this part was to someone else.  Long story short - Warband add one faction few guns and few mechanics. nothing big. But sold good while it was sold in full prices. why? because in 2010 a lot of people doesn't have access to fast internet. So i think now it would sold much much worst because add this stuff woudn't be big deal for modders. So why to buy something if you have much more for free?  Mount & Blade was pretty easy moddable game but times were diffrent - a lot of people just bought what was in local shop/ in closest big city. 

So if  guys who created M&B  create new game for full price that add new one faction, few weapons, make map a little bit bigger - it probably would be review bombed and sold rly bad. 

I would wrote about HOI4 situation but it would be... bad idea.

 

 

16 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

 

 

I know so little about their future plans that I hesitate to make any guesses besides repeating that they have two teams now, and usually that means at least two games are made in parallel and at specific times even 3 or 4 because of pipelining.

 

I think yhat 7dtd2 won't be in EA so i think 10 years sound realistic.

 

16 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

 

 

Didn't you imply hardcore for you is complexity? 7D2D was never complex (from what little I know about past versions). It may have been somewhat harder to play, had more grind and a more awkward user interface, but thats it. Oh yes, and it was darker.

 

Smell of flesh or  cleaning after blood moon ( for me cleaning was part of blood moon mechanic) was pretty complexed because... well everything was basic but it was very early versions - well even add sleepers take some time. So it was complexed because rest things was simple in this period - so i expected  that rest thing will be more and more complexed too.

 

16 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Which of these games had real EA (with emphasis on Alpha) instead of the usual beta test phase?

 

MD, project zomboid. About mount and blade... hard to say - we know that at least 1 mount and blade bannerlord was crapped - law issue etc. so.... yes? and no. Hard to say in this sitaution. But for example - Arma Reforge as it was added on steam was in pretty early stage of production 

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

My small mistake - bordelands weapons +  higher level limit cost 4 $.  So 1 legendary weapon for each category as pack probably would cost 3-4 $.

 I checked Undead legacy and.. it have hardcore crafing  honestly thx for that.

Hardcore sims...  you mean medieval dynasty for example? Yes it's hardcore game in longer time - managment workers , motivate them need a lot of time. So yes - start can be easy but rest of game can be hardcore similiar to terraria. I gave example of hardcore shooters - arma and then you have tons of diffrent types of ammo, even similiar looking gun for casual person can have much diffrent ammo type ETC.

 

If i remember this part was to someone else.  Long story short - Warband add one faction few guns and few mechanics. nothing big. But sold good while it was sold in full prices. why? because in 2010 a lot of people doesn't have access to fast internet. So i think now it would sold much much worst because add this stuff woudn't be big deal for modders. So why to buy something if you have much more for free?  Mount & Blade was pretty easy moddable game but times were diffrent - a lot of people just bought what was in local shop/ in closest big city. 

So if  guys who created M&B  create new game for full price that add new one faction, few weapons, make map a little bit bigger - it probably would be review bombed and sold rly bad. 

I would wrote about HOI4 situation but it would be... bad idea.

 

Mmh, wikipedia and news-media say that warband's biggest draw were multiple multiplayer modes. And that is just a very good example of something the developer can add much much easier than modders.

 

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

I think yhat 7dtd2 won't be in EA so i think 10 years sound realistic.

 

Smell of flesh or  cleaning after blood moon ( for me cleaning was part of blood moon mechanic) was pretty complexed because...

 

ROFL. Seriously? Cleaning after blood moon is a complex task?

 

Smell of flesh was a nice mechanic, but complex? Are we talking about pre-school gaming now?

 

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

well everything was basic but it was very early versions - well even add sleepers take some time. So it was complexed because rest things was simple in this period - so i expected  that rest thing will be more and more complexed too.

 

No, just no. You can't redefine a simple task as complex just because everything else in the game was even more simple.

 

Moving cubes through quadratic holes will never be called a complex task for an adult even though you could find even simpler tasks like hitting a cushion.

 

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

 

 

MD, project zomboid. About mount and blade... hard to say - we know that at least 1 mount and blade bannerlord was crapped - law issue etc. so.... yes? and no. Hard to say in this sitaution. But for example - Arma Reforge as it was added on steam was in pretty early stage of production 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[JCrook1028]

23 hours ago, Matt115 said:

Yes. So that's why i wrote there is at least 10 years to want for 7dtd.

You do realize that for a lot of that "10 year" time frame the team was only a few members and now it's roughly 50 and still growing right? In simple terms no, 7dtd2 would NOT take 10 years.

[Matt115]

22 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Mmh, wikipedia and news-media say that warband's biggest draw were multiple multiplayer modes. And that is just a very good example of something the developer can add much much easier than modders.

 

I read that the most popular mods were conversions into SW or LOTR

22 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

 

 

ROFL. Seriously? Cleaning after blood moon is a complex task?

 

Smell of flesh was a nice mechanic, but complex? Are we talking about pre-school gaming now?

 

 

22 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

ROFL. Seriously? Cleaning after blood moon is a complex task?

 

Smell of flesh was a nice mechanic, but complex? Are we talking about pre-school gaming now?

 

 

 

Well -  it looks like basic for more expended system in future  - Only game i could comparing to  7dtd in this period was MC while in MC food was pretty simple thing and mobs could be easy tricked by using cactus. So yes this looks funny now but in 2013 was pretty good job.

22 hours ago, JCrook1028 said:

You do realize that for a lot of that "10 year" time frame the team was only a few members and now it's roughly 50 and still growing right? In simple terms no, 7dtd2 would NOT take 10 years.

We will see.  Still 10 years sounds much realistic that 5 years. So if they will change engine start making asset from begining - yes it will be 10 years to wait for 7dtd 2

[meganoth]

37 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

I read that the most popular mods were conversions into SW or LOTR

 

And that has absolutely nothing to do with MP as a feature in warband and it (presumably) selling well, as far as I can see. 

 

37 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Well -  it looks like basic for more expended system in future  - Only game i could comparing to  7dtd in this period was MC while in MC food was pretty simple thing and mobs could be easy tricked by using cactus. So yes this looks funny now but in 2013 was pretty good job.

 

 

Which still does not make anything in that old alpha complex. You are just repeating your argument that because you only had to cushion to poke as comparison you thought moving cubes through quadratic holes was complex. If you were a pre-schooler at that time (or played like one 😉), sure it was complex for you. But it isn't the game that changed into being casual, it is you who changed.

 

Edited September 8, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Matt115]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

And that has absolutely nothing to do with MP as a feature in warband and it (presumably) selling well, as far as I can see. 

 

I know that game have MP but i heard that SP and SP converting mods were popular. maybe this change with time when fast internet became more popular.

 

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Which still does not make anything in that old alpha complex. You are just repeating your argument that because you only had to cushion to poke as comparison you thought moving cubes through quadratic holes was complex. If you were a pre-schooler at that time (or played like one 😉), sure it was complex for you. But it isn't the game that changed into being casual, it is you who changed.

 

 

Meat smell for me was part of "food system" -  yes this is not complicated like green hell but... what could you expec in game in very early stage of production

 

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

[Guppycur]

On 9/6/2022 at 1:01 AM, pApA^LeGBa said:

Mythical development time poll? Are you serious now? That was a thing. Still in the old forum though.

There was definitely a non mythical time poll, but no clue if it was "official".

 

Re: game being made for casuals.  Yep, sure is.  They're targeting casuals because that's where the money is.  As a lover of the game, we hates it.  As a person with common sense, it makes sense.

 

Re: mods making the game more difficult.  Uh, as someone who is close to the modding community AND as someone who also mods, I will say two things... One, the most popular mods by far are the ones that make the game *easier* and *more* (usually moar gunz).  Two, you really can pretty much mod anything if you have the willpower and knowledge.  And as a bonus, three, I've yet to see an overhaul mod make the game *easier*, and three point one, the users of *those* mods are feveredly supportive.

 

So my take away is modding tracks with vanilla.  Most people want it easier but those who do want it harder are much more committed to the game/mod.

 

Kinda gives a double meaning to "casuals".  Or it just reinforceds the original meaning.  I dunno, I just woke up.

[Matt115]

1 hour ago, Guppycur said:

 

Re: game being made for casuals.  Yep, sure is.  They're targeting casuals because that's where the money is.  As a lover of the game, we hates it.  As a person with common sense, it makes sense.

 

But other hands - people remember hardcore/controversial games not casual or "for everyone"

[pApA^LeGBa]

@Guppycur Regarding overhauls, Darkness Falls is by far the most popular overhaul mod and it´s for sure harder. I have seen a lot of DF servers advertised on several platforms and in the serverlist. War of the walkers, wich is easier than vanilla imo, i haven´t seen much of. 

[Guppycur]

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

But other hands - people remember hardcore/controversial games not casual or "for everyone"

It's a business, not a memory wall.

1 hour ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

@Guppycur Regarding overhauls, Darkness Falls is by far the most popular overhaul mod and it´s for sure harder. I have seen a lot of DF servers advertised on several platforms and in the serverlist. War of the walkers, wich is easier than vanilla imo, i haven´t seen much of. 

Yep, that's my point; the 2nd type of person who really wants it harder will choose an overhaul and feverishly defend it, whereas a casual will choose some QoL mod that increases stack sizes or something silly and not give a crap about the game.  But there's far more of the latter.

[Pille]

12 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

It's a business, not a memory wall.

Yep, that's my point; the 2nd type of person who really wants it harder will choose an overhaul and feverishly defend it, whereas a casual will choose some QoL mod that increases stack sizes or something silly and not give a crap about the game.  But there's far more of the latter.

 

Can DF be installed as easily as those QoL mods and do they also increase the systems requirements, like DF and other overhauls do? What I want to say, overhauls and some random quality of life mods differ on many levels, so you can not simply attribute the greater popularity of the latter to the fact that they make the game easier (IMO increasing stack sizes only reduces annoyance and has nothing to do with lowering difficulty anyway). 

[Matt115]

31 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

It's a business, not a memory wall.

 

Well - pirania games base on nostalgia - Elex.

Fatal frame.

Arma

Operation flashpoint

Man of war

Dead island

dead space

Pathologic 2

So sometimes it's better to reduce potential income now to create solid series with solid fanbase in future

Edited September 9, 2022 by Matt115 (see edit history)