Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[Jost Amman]

26 minutes ago, zztong said:

 

That was my first thought too, but I assume the game would download and cache the image, just like any image built into the game. The question would then be, what do you show if you have just started a new game and the image is not available, or is no longer available? I think you'd default back to the game's built-in images until such time as you fire up the game and the image is available for download. After that, you've got a local copy.

Genius! 

[JCrook1028]

20 hours ago, mstdv inc said:

And what if there is temporarily no Internet and steam will be offline?

Unless I'm mistaken the game would shut down when Steam did anyway so............ you wouldn't be playing at all?

[Syphon583]

On 8/28/2022 at 1:11 AM, Jost Amman said:

Picture frames are a waste of memory/asset space, IMO, if done that way.

They should do like DF where you can put a picture URL in a frame, and it'll display the picture from the internet.

 

Are you worried about performance here? Because loading an asset that is saved on a local drive will ALWAYS be faster than pulling something from the internet. And just because you're pulling something from the internet, it doesn't mean you're not saving anything. Those images would be temporarily saved to a cache file. Also, the idea of letting the game choose random images for the frames is cool, but is there a source of truth? How do they guarantee the content and quality of the images?

 

I haven't played DF personally, so I'm just not sure how it works. I'm assuming this feature is just for player-made picture frames where they have control over what image is loaded.

[mstdv inc]

1 hour ago, JCrook1028 said:

Unless I'm mistaken the game would shut down when Steam did anyway so............ you wouldn't be playing at all?

If for some reason there is no Internet, steam goes offline and allows you to run all games that do not require a permanent Internet connection.You will be able to play, but there will be no scoring of game time, achievements, etc.I was faced with such a situation last week and steam let me into the game.But Epic Games services said they didn't want to work without the Internet:(

[Roland]

10 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

You can't help being dishonest and misrepresentative can you?

 

I'm being straight with you as promised. No joking or anything. What I stated is truth as I see it. You can call me a liar but then you are failing to abide by the standard YOU insisted discourse should be maintained at. 

 

10 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

The fact you can mod is irrelevant.

 

No. It is 100% relevant for two reasons. First, the developers designed the game to be modified by the community. Secondly, there will never be another option other than what we have now for farming in the vanilla game. So modding is your only shot at having options in regards to farming. Let me say that again. Modding is your only chance to have a different version of farming than we currently have.

 

10 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

If you aren't going to engage honestly you can take a hike.

 

I'm not going anywhere and I am being brutally honest. If you don't accept the truth as I have outlined it then there is nothing I can say other than, wait and see and you will see that when the devs wrap up the game and it is done farming will be via farm plots and to do otherwise you will have to load a mod and then you will finally have to concede that I was always telling the truth. Until then, I guess you will have to live in denial.

[Roland]

11 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

Do you think that allowing players to have both types of farming won't impact food balancing? It will.

 

It doesn't matter what he thinks. Having both types of farming as part of vanilla is a fantasy. To experience multiple versions of farming people will have to download mods. It is simply the truth and it really is pointless to pretend that there will be additional farming features available in the vanilla version of the game. Let's not even entertain this notion or perpetuate the idea that it might happen. It will not.

 

In fact, I'll go so far as to say that talking about alt versions of farming is off topic for the A21 thread and should be confined to modding requests subforum because that is the only way he will ever farm in some other way than what is in vanilla.

[zztong]

3 hours ago, Syphon583 said:

[Pictures from a URL] How do they guarantee the content and quality of the images?

 

That could be the trip-up. TFP might not want the potential hassles of nasty things like child pornography showing up in people's games. It might be a small but significant legal distinction that TFP could point to a mod creator as the source of the feature.

[Roland]

18 hours ago, Melange said:

For me, its a mixed bag. Early game in co-op play, I generally stay at the base location and build. The other members go out and loot. When they return, they have labelled storage to put their bounty, maybe some cooked food and drink. And I get to read the extra magazines.  Maybe they bring a better quality tool or primary weapon too. During the day I'll harvest stone and clay, craft cobblestone and then upgrade the weakest parts of our base. As our abilities progress, I see to it that forges are fed, food is prepared, and we're making concrete mix. And I'm the one upgrading the blocks. So' I don't feel left out at all. Sure, their loot stage may grow and their XP exceeds mine. Sometimes I do mining, and making bundles (if I know the perk) does give a nice XP boost. At least this gives a semblance of improving base safety and the organization of loot. Or I could go out and loot with them early game. But in the long run, someone has to be Den Mother and strive for order on the homefront. The warrior is generally not a gardener.

 

Once established, we all go out together. I usually allow the 'looters' to open the good loot chests because they will get the better items. And they'll give me some. It is cooperative play, not competetive play.

 

Later on, we're all kitted out with the best armor, tools and weapons. Because we worked together, by division of labor, to achieve this. Then we all share in the rush of Tier5 poi's and horde night. Yeah, maybe their XP and Loot numbers might be bigger than mine...so what? 

 

 

 

Remember that magazines only control crafting. Period. They don't grant special skills and abilities like the books do. If your crew didn't do much crafting in A20 but as "Den Mother" you did, then it would be extremely dumb of them to read magazine and give you the left overs. They should give you every mag they find so that you can craft everything at the highest level.

[unholyjoe]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

 

Remember that magazines only control crafting. Period. They don't grant special skills and abilities like the books do. If your crew didn't do much crafting in A20 but as "Den Mother" you did, then it would be extremely dumb of them to read magazine and give you the left overs. They should give you every mag they find so that you can craft everything at the highest level.

precisely, mp gamers will need to redo some of their game play in order to take advantage of the new system, so many hinting that this will break mp when in actuality, will make it better IF players actually play as a team and help where it is needed. some will need to learn that team work does not get spelled with any "I"s in it.

 

but alas... we cant make people play any certain style but we put it out there for them to see it.

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

15 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

 

Couple of points.

 

TFP have already stated that they are not going back to LBD.  Just because people keep asking for it is not going to change their mind about it, especially since they are trying to release the final game over the next 2-3 development cycles.  Unless they changed their mind already to go back to LBD, I don't see this happening.

 

In addition, this is not something you can just add to the game as an option.  Turning things on or off by a slider (zombie spawns, bloodmoon) - sure.  Changing how certain aspects of the game interact with others (loot abundance, zombie damage, player damage, block damage, blood moon frequency) via a global variable tweak - sure.  Changing out a core mechanic of the game via source code changes (changing from the progression system in A20/A21 to a hybrid system bringing back LBD) - not so easy to do.  Mods that bring back LDB rewrite portions of the source code and make changes to the xml files in order to do that.  They can do that since they are rewriting some of the source code to remove unwanted game mechanic to put in their preferred game mechanic - Not something a lot of game developers want to do unless they planned for it at the beginning of the game development cycle.

 

Did you bother to read this thread at all?

 

 

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

19 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

Unlike you, I'm not ashamed at being found wrong, and I know sometimes I can be wrong.

That's how you progress in life, by confronting your thoughts and opinions with others.

 

So please, insult me. I will try to endure and get better. 

 

'Unlike me,' huh? Not a good way to attempt a legitimate argument with wild assertions and disrespect. 

 

I share the sentiment on being wrong, but insulting me like that with a puerile attitude won't do you any good. And who am I to refuse the invitation re: your request to be insulted, where 'insulted' must be a twisted synonym for 'explained to.' 😏

 

20 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

People often think that more options is always better. I disagree.

 

 

No argument from me on this point. That's your opinion, and not my argument in the slightest that anything is 'always' better. Context is important. Keep this in mind as I address your the next part of your statement.

 

20 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

I hate those games where the devs have no vision of how their vanilla game should play, so they give you 100 options you can turn on/off or choose numbers from 0 to 100, only to end up with a totally random and unbalanced game.

 

Two issues I have here. First - this isn't that kind of game, and second - by virtue of that fact, we are now discussing two different things. Me - this game. You - other games of the kind this is not.

 

The 7D devs have a road map and things are being adjusted along the way. These developers aren't visionless, I just don't agree with their vision in its entirety. 

 

Second, the appeal to extremes. I don't know whether you deliberately or unknowingly employ fallacies in your attempts to reason but this looks very much like another. Certain aspects of the game, to take one in particular - zombie digging, does not need a multitude of options, should any be added at all.

 

Just on or off. 

 

Going extreme with the 100 options is not what I asked for, expected, and not even something I want. By employing this reasoning it serves to look like I am expecting something of the devs (options), that that something is extreme in its nature (ridiculous amounts of tweaking), and that my request makes me look bad for expecting too much of the developers implementing it. Context.

 

Also, while I have you, have you seen random gen? You are aware that sliders constitute a high number of option combinations just to create a map - much of it you may not see. My request for reasonable options would have a direct effect on gameplay - and would be more in your face.

 

20 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

Do you think that allowing players to have both types of farming won't impact food balancing? It will.

How do you propose to solve that issue? If you can easily farm anywhere just by having a hoe, you can start an unlimited farm on day one as soon as you have some seeds.

At least with the boxes, you need to gather a substantial amount of materials that are not very easy to come by.

 

Two farming styles impacting food balancing? No, it won't. Not that I can see anyway. Again this is where your reasoning utterly fails, and this is why I said it would be insulting to point this out but here I have to do it regardless.

 

Being able to plant doesn't mean you can harvest in profit - that's with the unmodded 'hideous'* system they already have in place. Without putting any points into LOTL you aren't really going to see the kind of returns you are implying.

 

(*My Opinion (Tm.) - In before Roland.)

 

As for the nature of the farm - I don't know whether you're being hyperbolic, ignorant, or serious when you use the term 'unlimited'.

 

One must take into acount growing time, looting for seeds or dukes to buy where availablr, and necessary levelling to get the points to make it worth it,  render the idea of an 'unlimited' farm; given the aforementioned constraints, is absurd.

 

Next the seeds and hoe issue. Unless you find yourself extremely fortunate and find a hoe or seeds on day one you wouldn't be doing anything like what you suggested. Purchasing a hoe could be level or stage gated, or some other kind of gating (including book only).

 

Speaking of, if it had to be player crafted, unless low level player access to forged iron was looting or by purchase (again which could be dealt with Dev side, like not finding high grade gear on day one) they would NEED a forge before they could do any sort of tilling.

 

This is to say nothing of the fact wild planting produced poor harvest, tilled soil with a hoe produced better, and fertilised soil better still. Again keep this in mind because you seem to have forgotten this in your next point - your 'Effort in material collection' argument.

 

This argument has two problems with it. On the one hand it's just bad, on the other hand it's also wrong.

 

- Bad - because as I have explained re: wild farming (with the hoe and fertiliser) -  box creation; which is sat behind a skill and able to be crafted immediately when unlocked) is less demanding of player effort than wild farming.

 

- Wrong - because the planter box materials are in fact not hard to come by. You are surrounded by trees when you start, and it isn't too far to a wood source should you spawn in the desert. You are literally stood on an endless supply of clay soil. Rotten flesh and nitrate are packaged neatly together all over the roads in the form of blood and guts, and where there's any deficiency - nitrate nodes are visible on the map.

 

* I realise I missed your question of how I would solve food balancing with farming. I already have suggested it - low level farming (and even biome specific effects) could lead to players inexperienced with farming (unperked or unread) yielding failed crops for their ambitions early game.

 

Perking or reading would reduce this, but would in turn take time in game to level or loot in order to advance.

 

I hope that suffices, and that I have done a reasonable job in justifying it 👍🏻

 

20 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

Mods ARE the solution. The game has taken a different direction after the devs evaluated that was for the best, both from a gameplay and a technical level perspective (reasons and stuff).

 

Mods are A solution if the developers don't change anything - but not a solution to the lack of these things in vanilla, having them part of the vanilla experience.

 

It's patchwork - to undo what the developers have done, and other mods to introduce the devs failings and shortcomings, or to pick up the slack when it comes to more vehicles or zombies for example.

 

The final word on what you think the developers have decided to do, and why, won't get any argument from me.

 

As for Roland, I'm not interested in discussing anything with you anymore. You didn't bother addressing my points properly, and I don't know whether you're trolling or genuinely don't get it, but it's fruitless to pursue any further conversation with you in particular.

 

And Jost, I hope that was helpful - and I didn't need to insult you, only to address your arguments.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Beelzebubs Ghost (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

@Beelzebubs Ghost I've read your reply, but now I'm going to be working out all day, so, hopefully, I can reply when I come back since there are many points to address and fallacies in your reasoning, from my perspective. Thanks.

[FinkPloyd]

On 8/25/2022 at 10:39 PM, Laz Man said:

 

It looks like it is working as intended mostly based on his small test.  1 perk point investment is not a lot to ask imo.

 

To me it looks like the gain is not equal for each perk point invested.

 

The increase in harvest from 1 or 3 perk points is good value, but 2 perk points is not worth it.

 

[BFT2020]

6 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

 

Did you bother to read this thread at all?

 

 

Yes did you bother to even read mine or do you simply dismiss others posts if it doesn’t reinforce your opinions?

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

44 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

Yes did you bother to even read mine or do you simply dismiss others posts if it doesn’t reinforce your opinions?

 

You evidently didn't.

 

My response was in discussion of things that could be done, and may yet be should any of TFP change their minds.

 

When my post is an address to someone else  defending my opinions on whats been and gone, and what would be nice to have back vanilla without needing mods, then you come and state TFP aren't going back then you, like Jost, are addressing something I'm not.

 

Hence my question of whether or not you bothered reading the posts before, not just mine. And on your disrespectful and insulting tone of needing opinions in line with mine, grow up.

 

I thrive on differing opinion. Life wouldn't be worth living if not for argument and dispute. It's how progress is made. 

 

3 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

@Beelzebubs Ghost I've read your reply, but now I'm going to be working out all day, so, hopefully, I can reply when I come back since there are many points to address and fallacies in your reasoning, from my perspective. Thanks.

 

A fallacy in mine? Have a great day and take all the time you need to reply when you have some free time.

 

This, I am really looking forward to 🤭

Edited August 30, 2022 by Beelzebubs Ghost (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

13 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

On 8/29/2022 at 10:25 AM, Jost Amman said:

Unlike you, I'm not ashamed at being found wrong, and I know sometimes I can be wrong.

That's how you progress in life, by confronting your thoughts and opinions with others.

 

So please, insult me. I will try to endure and get better. 

 

'Unlike me,' huh? Not a good way to attempt a legitimate argument with wild assertions and disrespect. 

 

I share the sentiment on being wrong, but insulting me like that with a puerile attitude won't do you any good. And who am I to refuse the invitation re: your request to be insulted, where 'insulted' must be a twisted synonym for 'explained to.' 😏

You said:

 

On 8/29/2022 at 10:25 AM, Jost Amman said:

It would be insulting to point out the flaws in what you've just written, Jost.

 

I suggest a few moments of reflection or wait for someone else to take you to task on your reasoning. Though if you insist, I'd be more than happy to point the issues out.

YOU already started insulting me, by implying that even trying to respond to my (implied) "silly" argument would be insulting.

This is called a condescending attitude, and you're using this (and yes, THIS is insulting) attitude with everyone you've been "discussing" with.

 

So, please, don't treat us as if we don't understand who you really are. We all can tell very well.

 

13 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

On 8/29/2022 at 9:29 AM, Jost Amman said:

People often think that more options is always better. I disagree.

 

 

No argument from me on this point. That's your opinion, and not my argument in the slightest that anything is 'always' better. Context is important. Keep this in mind as I address your the next part of your statement.

Again: a condescending response which reveals a HUGE ego on your part. The problem is, you can't really understand what I'm pointing at with my reply, because you need it spelled out. Or maybe you're just not in good faith with your reply and try to "win" an argument by ignoring the other side.

 

I'll spell it out for you then (let's play "dumb" here): you've been asking to integrate in vanilla (since you said don't want to use mods) the previous farming mechanics alongside the current new farming stuff. Well, that's literally asking for more options.

 

This is an example of what YOU said about giving more options for the players:

On 8/29/2022 at 9:05 AM, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

- Farming.

Adjusted system (perks and harvest) - and the option of both wild planting and box planting.

 

- Character development.

Combination of Learn by Doing (Mining, stamina exercise etc) and Learn by Looting (Schematic unlocks) for a more sensible and tempered progression.

Also, if you think having more options isn't necessarily better, then you should consider that YOUR additional requested options could be worsening the game too.

 

Edited August 30, 2022 by Jost Amman (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

13 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

On 8/29/2022 at 9:29 AM, Jost Amman said:

I hate those games where the devs have no vision of how their vanilla game should play, so they give you 100 options you can turn on/off or choose numbers from 0 to 100, only to end up with a totally random and unbalanced game.

 

Two issues I have here. First - this isn't that kind of game, and second - by virtue of that fact, we are now discussing two different things. Me - this game. You - other games of the kind this is not.

You missed my point. I was just giving you an example of WHY I think too many options are bad for a game, and I added the reason why I don't like them. I know perfectly that The Fun Pimps (fortunately) are not that type of developer! But if you, and others, keep asking to add optional things to this game (see previous quote), that's exactly the direction we'll be heading to in the future. A game with 100 options and no real "vanilla standard game". So, no, you didn't understand the first thing I was saying, sorry.

 

13 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

Second, the appeal to extremes. I don't know whether you deliberately or unknowingly employ fallacies in your attempts to reason but this looks very much like another. Certain aspects of the game, to take one in particular - zombie digging, does not need a multitude of options, should any be added at all.

 

Just on or off. 

Simple, right? Well, ask @faatal if it's that simple. For the zombie AI digging is just another direction where they can attack blocks.

If you're above them, they'll attack ("dig") up, if you're below them, they dig down. For the AI there's no difference between digging and attacking a block.

So, no, wrong again. Simple is all relative, and you need to know the ins and outs of the game (AI in this case) to evaluate if it's a "viable option".

 

13 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

Going extreme with the 100 options is not what I asked for, expected, and not even something I want. By employing this reasoning it serves to look like I am expecting something of the devs (options), that that something is extreme in its nature (ridiculous amounts of tweaking), and that my request makes me look bad for expecting too much of the developers implementing it. Context.

Again, the 100 options was an example to show you the trend we'll be having if every player does like you do. You ask for two options, I ask for one, another player asks for three. Add them all and each option will intersect with the other and will need a "balance pass" to avoid absurd situations.

 

What you don't get is that modders can release "unbalanced" content (even if they try not to) because they have no obligations toward the player/customer, but the devs need to guarantee (or at least try) that the "standard" game and most options, don't make the game feel rushed or bugged.

[Jost Amman]

14 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

Also, while I have you, have you seen random gen? You are aware that sliders constitute a high number of option combinations just to create a map - much of it you may not see. My request for reasonable options would have a direct effect on gameplay - and would be more in your face.

Yes, I've seen the Random World Generator options, and I hope they add more. What you don't understand is the difference between turning on/off different farming options, different skill/perk systems and zombie AI "digging", vs. adding options to something that will create a map as a result. As long as the RWG options can be supported, every new option will contribute to the generation of a map the player will play on that will be cooked and server once the RWG process ends.

 

That's very different from adding options that can impact the in-game balancing, the AI or any core system of the game.

If you can't understand that, I don't know what else to say, sorry.

 

14 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

Two farming styles impacting food balancing? No, it won't. Not that I can see anyway. Again this is where your reasoning utterly fails, and this is why I said it would be insulting to point this out but here I have to do it regardless.

 

Being able to plant doesn't mean you can harvest in profit - that's with the unmodded 'hideous'* system they already have in place. Without putting any points into LOTL you aren't really going to see the kind of returns you are implying.

Ok, I'll try to be clear because I see there probably was a misunderstanding...

 

Why are you assuming that if we add BOTH farm mechanics to vanilla, that the player will only use one at a time?

Being able to plat ANYWHERE (with the old system) PLUS (i.e.) just one point in LotL (new system) WILL give you profit, AND on top of that, you'll only be limited by the number of seeds you can loot, buy or craft (which is probably a hefty number already in the first week).

 

Edited August 30, 2022 by Jost Amman (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

14 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

(*My Opinion (Tm.) - In before Roland.)

 

As for the nature of the farm - I don't know whether you're being hyperbolic, ignorant, or serious when you use the term 'unlimited'.

 

One must take into acount growing time, looting for seeds or dukes to buy where availablr, and necessary levelling to get the points to make it worth it,  render the idea of an 'unlimited' farm; given the aforementioned constraints, is absurd.

 

Next the seeds and hoe issue. Unless you find yourself extremely fortunate and find a hoe or seeds on day one you wouldn't be doing anything like what you suggested. Purchasing a hoe could be level or stage gated, or some other kind of gating (including book only).

 

Speaking of, if it had to be player crafted, unless low level player access to forged iron was looting or by purchase (again which could be dealt with Dev side, like not finding high grade gear on day one) they would NEED a forge before they could do any sort of tilling.

 

This is to say nothing of the fact wild planting produced poor harvest, tilled soil with a hoe produced better, and fertilised soil better still. Again keep this in mind because you seem to have forgotten this in your next point - your 'Effort in material collection' argument.

 

This argument has two problems with it. On the one hand it's just bad, on the other hand it's also wrong.

 

- Bad - because as I have explained re: wild farming (with the hoe and fertiliser) -  box creation; which is sat behind a skill and able to be crafted immediately when unlocked) is less demanding of player effort than wild farming.

 

- Wrong - because the planter box materials are in fact not hard to come by. You are surrounded by trees when you start, and it isn't too far to a wood source should you spawn in the desert. You are literally stood on an endless supply of clay soil. Rotten flesh and nitrate are packaged neatly together all over the roads in the form of blood and guts, and where there's any deficiency - nitrate nodes are visible on the map.

 

* I realise I missed your question of how I would solve food balancing with farming. I already have suggested it - low level farming (and even biome specific effects) could lead to players inexperienced with farming (unperked or unread) yielding failed crops for their ambitions early game.

 

Perking or reading would reduce this, but would in turn take time in game to level or loot in order to advance.

 

I hope that suffices, and that I have done a reasonable job in justifying it 👍🏻

Ok, now I don't know if you're talking about the OLD farming system (I thought you were asking to reintroduce it in vanilla) or if you're talking about a NEW version of the farming system that you want to design and balance yourself.

 

IF we're talking about the OLD system then you got a few things wrong:

1. IIRC you were able to craft a Hoe as long as you had the materials, so 1 point in Advanced Engineering would give you access to the Forge -> the to Forged Iron -> and finally to craft the Hoe on day ONE.
2. By unlimited, I was referring (of course, I thought it was obvious) about the number of PLOTS you can prepare for farming once you have the Hoe. Even if you don't have the means to fertilize them, it's already a good bonus there just for using your Hoe on the ground.
3. The number of seed, even if lower at the start, can become substantial with just a few days of looting, trader shopping and even crafting by yourself after you put at least one point in Living Off the Land. (you have 4 points with the starting quest, so I'm assuming that won't be a problem.
4. All the other points you've been making is literally called balancing! I told you this would be needed and that balancing takes time. So, even if the devs accepted all the points you're proposing, they's need to balance all the "integrated" farming system back in place (lot of time).
5. The craftable Plots in the current system: you can say it's easy to find the materials all you want, but players will need to dedicate time to farming wood, digging clay and harvesting carcasses on the road (they're not as many as you'd think, even in cities). On the contrary, as soon as you have a hoe, you can prepare as many (unlimited) plots you want for farming, without even leaving the area.

But again, I don't understand anymore if you're talking about how the old farming system worked, or you're making up things as you go to "balance" your mess.

 

Also, to this point, if you keep in vanilla the current system and add back the old farming system, hoe much yield would you get from a tilled and fertilized ground plot when you have LotL at max level? Wouldn't it be too OP?

 

Edited August 30, 2022 by Jost Amman (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

14 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

On 8/29/2022 at 9:29 AM, Jost Amman said:

Mods ARE the solution. The game has taken a different direction after the devs evaluated that was for the best, both from a gameplay and a technical level perspective (reasons and stuff).

 

Mods are A solution if the developers don't change anything - but not a solution to the lack of these things in vanilla, having them part of the vanilla experience.

 

It's patchwork - to undo what the developers have done, and other mods to introduce the devs failings and shortcomings, or to pick up the slack when it comes to more vehicles or zombies for example.

 

The final word on what you think the developers have decided to do, and why, won't get any argument from me.

 

As for Roland, I'm not interested in discussing anything with you anymore. You didn't bother addressing my points properly, and I don't know whether you're trolling or genuinely don't get it, but it's fruitless to pursue any further conversation with you in particular.

 

And Jost, I hope that was helpful - and I didn't need to insult you, only to address your arguments.

As Roland told you, the developers have already "chosen" about farming. They just released in A20 a farming rework, which will be probably balanced a bit again before release, but it'll stay as it is for the foreseeable future. So, yes, mods ARE the solution to your problems.

 

You talk about failings and shortcomings, but that's your opinion. Farming is harder now than it was before, and it's an improvement for me. Now you have to invest in it if you want farming to be profitable. But that's your opinion, so I won't comment further on that, I just don't like the words you use to describe what you don't like. It's like saying you're dumb and worthless because you have a different opinion than mine. It would be silly and rude to say that.

 

As for Roland, he can only tell you what he knows about the devs plans, intentions and why they chose something.

He can't change the game for you or go to Texas at TFP studios, and convince Madmole and Rick to change their vision of the game.

 

As for the insulting part, well, you're very good at not using rude words, but you completely lack a respectful attitude and use "formally polite" sentences to passively-aggressively insult others. So, no, you failed at that, and many here can see right through you.

 

I hope I didn't insult you by just stating my opinion.  

 

===============================================================================

OT: sorry everyone for hijacking this thread for a bit, but I wanted to be sure that my reply to @Beelzebubs Ghost was thorough. 

Edited August 30, 2022 by Jost Amman (see edit history)

[Roland]

16 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

As for Roland, I'm not interested in discussing anything with you anymore. You didn't bother addressing my points properly

 

I will address them point for point regardless of you not wanting to engage with me further. They will be for the benefit of other readers and you need not feel obligated to answer.

 

On 8/29/2022 at 12:05 AM, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

I distinctly remember discussing at a point previous exactly the option to have both - nomadic wild planting for roaming players, and box plot farming for an integrated decorative yet functional setup 

 

Don't try that with me, sir. You won't get away with it. Neither will you find a stronger proponent of more choice than me.

 

This would be a good point if it were remotely possible. I acknowledge your desire to be inclusive and have as many options as possible for everyone to be able to play as they wish. In this particular case (farming) the path to more options will have to be modding. Regardless of whether you personally believe that is a legitimate or relevant solution, it is, in fact, the reality. There will be no wild planting in addition to box planting in the unmodified vanilla version of the game. You can take that as an official TFP answer.

 

On 8/29/2022 at 12:05 AM, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

I have never suggested the developers remove a feature entirely; that isn't ridiculous, without suggesting alterations or alternative options; wherever non-modded possible alternatives are feasible, and especially never to spite other people out of a particular playstyle. Ever. 

 

I appreciate your good intentions. But in the end, it doesn't matter whether you come up with a good alteration or alternative options or if your reasons were for the betterment of all and not to spite anyone. If you call for a change, there will be some people who don't like it and won't like the alternative you proposed. Everything you don't like about the game right now, there are others who like it. If you had the power to change it to the way you want it would upset others. 

 

Therefore, the best option for alternative gameplay is modding because it leaves the game as it intact for those who like it that way and allows others to play differently and nobody gets upset. Wild planting exists currently as a mod and so anyone who prefers that to box planting can do it. Adding option sliders is another great option but not every change that everyone wants can be made as an option and we, as players, don't have control over what goes in as an option but we do have control over what mods happen.

 

On 8/29/2022 at 12:05 AM, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

Some examples of the topics of my objections, and relevant suggestions:

 

- Farming.

Adjusted system (perks and harvest) - and the option of both wild planting and box planting.

 

- Character development.

Combination of Learn by Doing (Mining, stamina exercise etc) and Learn by Looting (Schematic unlocks) for a more sensible and tempered progression.

 

- Zombie digging.

Slider options to turn this on or off (Via disabling downward attack damage if animations cannot be isolated and disabled) for those who wish to avoid bloodmoons dynamically without tampering with options.

 

We talked about farming. I don't object to your idea but officially, I can tell you, that isn't going to happen.

 

Character development is the same problem. The devs are not going to return to LBD. Again, I am confident in officially announcing that LBD is not going to be part of the character progression design for 7 Days to Die. Your only pathway for having LBD is via modding.

 

Zombie Digging: I'm for this. It will depend on how much work it is with the "digging" being integrated into the pathing if they wish to do it. But I have no objection to a switch for digging like there is for feral mode. And I hope you notice the difference in my answer with this. I don't know for certain whether that option will exist someday. It is still a possibility. That should emphasize even more my definitive answers regarding farming and LBD. Zombie Digging is a maybe.

 

On 8/29/2022 at 12:05 AM, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

The fact you can mod is irrelevant. My discussion is focused primarily on vanilla play with reference to mods to demonstrate that certain things are still possible without necessarily messing up the game, and employed to make a particular point.

 

That's nice for a thought exercise but its also like saying "Assuming we have the ability to breathe underwater lets discuss the viability of underwater cities" That would be an interesting discussion but also a waste of time. You can say that you want to only use modding as way to show some things are possible for the devs, themselves, to do and to make some point but the reality is that for some features modding is going to be the only solution. Farming and LBD are two examples of that. That makes modding relevant to the discussion, like it or not.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

3 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

YOU already started insulting me, by implying that even trying to respond to my (implied) "silly" argument would be insulting.

This is called a condescending attitude, and you're using this (and yes, THIS is insulting) attitude with everyone you've been "discussing" with.

 

So, please, don't treat us as if we don't understand who you really are. We all can tell very well.

 

Your argument, not you. The insulting part would be someone else having to explain the errors in your reasoning, which is why I suggested you reflect on the post before I responded more.

 

In the end I had to because you didn't reflect and consider the points you made. You acted like a child instead. And this conversation, unfortunate as it is (given the fact you actually make a lot of good points in other aspects of the game discussion) is over.

 

Happy gaming 👍🏻

[Uncle Al]

12 hours ago, FinkPloyd said:

 

To me it looks like the gain is not equal for each perk point invested.

 

The increase in harvest from 1 or 3 perk points is good value, but 2 perk points is not worth it.

 

Yes, the average yields are 2, 4, 4.5, 6.5 for 0,1,2,3 perk points. The main benefit of going to 2, except as a stepping stone to 3, is you get nearly all the useful seed recipes at 2 points.  I imagine there may be a small tweak to yields when the new crafting comes in, as that benefit disappears.

[Jost Amman]

4 minutes ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

You acted like a child instead.

Again, condescending and paternalizing.

You continue to prove yourself being devious and using "normal" words to offend other people with passive-aggressive behavior.

You talk about acting like a child and then, when you're confronted with real arguments, you kick the ball out of the courtyard and run away.

[thatguy619]

I know this is PC but I had a dream where console got an update and I was very happy and I woke up to play it and MD 5 error taken my whole bas away