A20 - Leveling is now pointless

[gecko2015]

I've got 800hrs in game total and it's nice seeing 7 Days come such a long way. Overall I think A20 is a GOOD update - but with one MAJOR drawback.

 

I simply don't enjoy the game anymore with the move they've made in A20 to a near complete reliance on RNG. Just go look at the overwhelming threads on these forums and you'll see people rightfully asking others about spending tens of hours (or more) looking for specific recipes or a non-crafted part that they haven't found yet and you'll see my point.

 

You need to find a recipe to make virtually everything in the game. But even after you find the recipe, an item within that recipe can require their own special items that can't be crafted (i.e. beakers and acid) - so you're getting double RNG'd here! As you first need the recipe that can only be found and then you need the part that can only be found in loot or traders.

 

Don't get me wrong, I understand the issue they were trying to fix - which was in prior versions, at a certain point in the game-level, there was absolutely no reason or need to venture out and search for stuff since everything could be crafted/made in-house.

 

But A20's update of having almost everything requiring recipes has made the leveling system nearly pointless (not completely, but nearly). Why even mention the supposed ability to "craft quality 3 fair shotguns" in Boomstick if you haven't found the recipe for it yet? Because you can't "craft quality 3 fair shotguns" as it claims.

 

It seems they tried to find a balance between crafting and looting by allowing you to create simple shotguns (like the pipe gun and double barrel) whilst making the actual pump shotgun and auto-shotgun require schematics. But once you add in ALL of the other RNG into the game, it just makes the game less rewarding by making the player to heavily rely on RNG and not time-played or the skill of your character. From beakers to acid, to guns, bullets, crafting stations, mining tools, motorized tools, I could go on; the entire game is now a hide and seek game HOPING you find a schematic for that ONE thing you need and less of it's original survival RPG feel it used to have.

 

What do you guys think? I honestly don't know of a good way to balance what they're trying to achieve - and I'm torn. On the one hand, I see what they're doing as it's forcing me to go out and search more, but on the other hand I'm not having fun because I'm bound by RNG of what I need.

 

 

[Survior]

I think all items required for progression should be guaranteed somehow to be in the game.

Mostly I'm thinking about crafting recipes, or just making things like beakers common enough to be "highly statistically probable".

 

It's really weird how you can clear out a restaurant and leave hungry and clear out a drug store and not find any beakers or antibiotics.

 

UNFORTUNATELY the fun pimps are going in the opposite direction, like drastically lowering engine drops when breaking down engines.

 

 

Edited January 4, 2022 by Survior (see edit history)

[gecko2015]

2 minutes ago, Survior said:

It's really weird how you can clear out a restaurant and leave hungry and clear out a drug store and not find any beakers or antibiotics.

 

Exactly!!! That's by biggest gripe with them moving to an RNG system. I've been to multiple gun shops and pawn shops looking for a gun schematic I need and I don't find it. Then I go to a drug store and find one...it's @%$#ed.

Edited January 4, 2022 by gecko2015 (see edit history)

[Whiteshark68]

actually leveling is good because you get skill points which if you spend them in the right way i.e level up The Daring Adventurer you can either get those things you need as quest rewards especially when you can pick 2 rewards makes it easier or you find those schematics for sale at the trader if you have high level better barter

 

 

@Survior i thought that the rate of engines had been nerfed as well because i only found 2 out of about 30 cars i had wrenched down but seemed like it may have just been bad luck because the next 10 cars i wrenched got me more than 10 engines because nearly every second or 3rd car i searched had an engine as loot.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Whiteshark68 (see edit history)

[Justinus]

15 minutes ago, Survior said:

I think all items required for progression should be guaranteed somehow to be in the game.

Mostly I'm thinking about crafting recipes, or just making things like beakers common enough to be "highly statistically probable".

 

It's really weird how you can clear out a restaurant and leave hungry and clear out a drug store and not find any beakers or antibiotics.

 

UNFORTUNATELY the fun pimps are going in the opposite direction, like drastically lowering engine drops when breaking down engines.

 

 

 

Im confused about what you consider required for progression? You dont need any specific items in this game to continue to survive. Are there things that make it easier? Sure absolutely, but are they required, hell no. Half the game is overcoming challenges caused by not getting a specific item. No chem station? Better hit up traders more often for ammo or ammo crafting items. If they make certain things a guarantee the replayability of this game will disappear, at least in my opinion.

[gecko2015]

20 minutes ago, Whiteshark68 said:

>>>actually leveling is good because you get skill points which if you spend them in the right way i.e level up The Daring Adventurer you can either get those things you need as quest rewards especially when you can pick 2 rewards makes it easier or you find those schematics for sale at the trader if you have high level better barter

 

Yeah, this just isn't true. In my current play through I'm one away from being maxed out on Daring Adventurer and I'm one away from being maxed out on trader rewards and I'm still missing a SIGNIFICANT portion of schematics I need for certain items I want to craft.

 

Edited January 4, 2022 by gecko2015 (see edit history)

[Survior]

So you think having no beaker on your map makes your game more replayable or just makes your current run crap and more likely to restart?

 

[gecko2015]

4 minutes ago, Survior said:

So you think having no beaker on your map makes your game more replayable or just makes your current run crap and more likely to restart?

 

The only reason I can see people defending the new RNG system they have is because they found what they needed in their current play through, so therefore you should've too.

 

That's the problem with RNG. Some people get lucky and get everything they need - others are left frustrated with a level 125 character who can't even make a Steel Pickaxe because you haven't found the schematic for it yet and the traders haven't offered it yet.

[Whiteshark68]

you need to be max level daring adventurer to get 2 rewards

 

i have played now 6 different playthroughs of alpha 20 and have found everything i have needed or wanted by day 20 or so except for the drone after the update on availability on them

i have found if i go hard in intellect i can have a motorcycle by day 3 and usually that is after i max level daring adventurer.

it means going hard on the trader quests for the first 3 days.

1 minute ago, gecko2015 said:

The only reason I can see people defending the new RNG system they have is because they found what they needed in their current play through, so therefore you should've too.

 

That's the problem with RNG. Some people get lucky and get everything they need - others are left frustrated with a level 125 character who can't even make a Steel Pickaxe because you haven't found the schematic for it yet and the traders haven't offered it yet.

 i have always been offered steels tools as quest rewards for tier 3 quests

 

[gecko2015]

9 minutes ago, Whiteshark68 said:

 i have always been offered steels tools as quest rewards for tier 3 quests

 

But you can't make them because you don't have the schematic. That's the whole point of what we're talking about here. Everything is RNG. The Trader MIGHT offer it to you, you MIGHT find the schematic....who knows what will happen. Leveling  your character means nothing because it won't get you closer to making a Steel pickaxe.

 

 

And by the way, I'm at IV on trader quest and she's never offered me a steel tool as a reward - just further proof of RNG rewarding whomever it wishes.

Edited January 4, 2022 by gecko2015 (see edit history)

[Whiteshark68]

Just btw how many traders do you have that you are using i have 4 which is where you should be and yes i have found the steel tools schematic every time i have played.

I just thought of something while reading another thread do you level each of the traders up to their max level quest i.e when you get to level 2 quests at the first trader do you just go off to the next trader and do tier 2 quests for them ignoring your original trader and so on or do you go back and do the tier 2 quests and on as well for your original trader?.

 

what annoys me about the RNG is the fact i keep getting worse stat tools every time i make them i made 3 tier 5 steel pickaxes and every one was worse than the tier 4 i got for the reward

i am going to say you are just having the worst luck.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Whiteshark68 (see edit history)

[gecko2015]

4 minutes ago, Whiteshark68 said:

Just btw how many traders do you have that you are using i have 4 which is where you should be

You're just describing how to increase your RNG - which isn't addressing the complaint of RNG itself. The player shouldn't have to:

 

1. Let's see if this trader has it, nope....

2. What about her quest? Nope

3. What about this trader? Nope

4. What about his quest? Nope....

5. Maybe I need to level up this trader?

6. Nope....

7. Let me try this other trader....

 

These are al BS RNG tactics that do not give a survival RPG feel to the game. It gives a grinding, chore-like feel that may or may not reward you with what you need.

[Whiteshark68]

but you just ignored the fact that i said that yes i have found that tools schematic because it doesn't fit your "story"

 

like i said i have no problem finding schematics or items maybe i'm super lucky and your at the other end of the spectrum and have no luck at all

[gecko2015]

1 minute ago, Whiteshark68 said:

but you just ignored the fact that i said that yes i have found that tools schematic because it doesn't fit your "story"

 

 

 

Which brings me back to my original reply which said "The only reason I can see people defending the new RNG system they have is because they found what they needed in their current play through, so therefore you should've too"

 

I have 3 traders I've been using frequently in my play through. None have offered me a steel tool schematic to purchase or from quest rewards.

[Whiteshark68]

i for one have never said just because i have found these items you should have to but it does seem a tad unlikely you haven't been offered a any tier steel tool for a reward because in all 6 times i have played i have and had the traders selling the steel tools as well albeit tier 1 usually only

always have a trader selling schematics and recipes because the fun pimps have nerfed/changed the drop rates of those in the "wild"

as for leveling traders that is what drives the game so if you are not you are actually missing out on things by the sounds of it you just seem to be focused on the negatives.

 

i do realise i have been lucky but i can't be the same lucky 6 times in a row.

 

maybe it might be where your traders are and who they are so far i have 3 traders in the forest biome and 2 in the desert biome starter trader was rekt then jen next was hugh all in the forest then another jen in the desert and just up from there who is my tier 5 trader another jen but i haven't been sent to her officially yet.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Whiteshark68 (see edit history)

[SenpaiThatIngnoresYou]

51 minutes ago, gecko2015 said:

 

Where are you looting? Are you going to bookstores? are you looting desks, drawers, and trash? What recipes are you missing? Are you buying books? Do you go to other traders?  I admit that there have been changes in alpha 20. I no longer put points in the intellect tree or tool crafting because frankly i get tons of tools and i just use the iron ones up then scrap them. I have started treating things as disposable. I have found that alpha 20 is easier than the previous alphas if you focus on scavenging. 

 

 

 

[Justinus]

 

1 hour ago, Survior said:

So you think having no beaker on your map makes your game more replayable or just makes your current run crap and more likely to restart?

 

 

I think having different challenges makes the game more replayable. This playthrough I have to overcome X and next playthrough it might be Y. If everything is just handed to you as a guarantee what makes any play different? That is not what this game is about, if thats what you are looking for there are plenty of games out there that offer exactly that.

 

The systems in place give you everything you need to successfully survive. You really seem to be on a tirade of "If I don't get the best possible items what is the point of playing game sucks"

[ricp]

4 hours ago, gecko2015 said:

...spending tens of hours (or more) looking for specific recipes or a non-crafted part that they haven't found yet and you'll see my point.

 

Surely this is the same for almost every alpha, I've seen myself in A19 take 60 days to find the crucible schematic. RNG was always part of the game, I really don't think A20 changes much of that. Some balancing here and there? Perhaps, but in terms of range, the worry is if you buff it, you just end up with a very easy game.

 

Just for reference, people complain about beakers being difficult and I presume that is one of the RNG things you are complaining about because it can't be crafted (it is daft it can't be, it's essentially a glass jar - which you can craft - with lines on the side). In the three longish playthroughs I've had of A20, in the first I simply couldn't find the beaker anywhere even past day 40 - although the trader did sell complete chem benches, which I think should be nerfed but that's another discussion - in the other two playthroughs I had beakers in the trader's inventory literally on day one. They cost 1500 so for day 1 that was a bit of push, although trader quests are overly generous, but I certainly went out of my way to purchase and store for later. The idea they don't exist in the world, or that they are impossible to come by, is just not borne out with the facts.

 

Also this..

4 hours ago, gecko2015 said:

Why even mention the supposed ability to "craft quality 3 fair shotguns" in Boomstick if you haven't found the recipe for it yet? Because you can't "craft quality 3 fair shotguns" as it claims.

 

Not really sure what you are talking about, you have the ability to create a pipe shotgun and while, yes, it is hardly the greatest weapon, but you will create the tier based on your boomstick perk levels. Your suggestion you "can't" is simply wrong in this case.

 

 

Edit: I just wanted to add, I get the frustration with RNG, trust me I do. It's not that I don't relate to the frustration of needing something you can't craft yet seems to be very rare in your game world, I absolutely do. I just don't think there are many other solutions out there to provide a consistently different game experience each and every time.

Edited January 4, 2022 by ricp (see edit history)

[Darklegend222]

Perks towards crafting is not nearly as useless as you think. I've made everyone in my group their own level 5 tools, armor, and motorcycles. Your point on crafting being pointless couldn't be less true, especially your title.

 

I don't like how we can't craft parts either, I've made a mod to assign them recipes so that they are craftable. It sucks relying on RNG, but it is a fair challenge since you can still get around. Just not as great as if you had them.

 

The playstyles have definitely gotten a lot more linear in terms of A16. I'd advise that instead of focusing on the crafting, you focus on questing. It'll also level you up and have higher chances of getting you the parts you need from weapon bags.

 

Do your best to have fun with it and take it as a challenge. I don't forsee the dev team that controls loot or recipes making any modifications to the way parts currently work.

[PoloPoPo]

What the topic starter describes is exactly one of the main mechanics that makes the game replayable and fun, no?

 

Basically you ask for a game like having a list of things to execute:

- Go to POI xxx --> find guaranteed 20 sewing kits; check

- Go to POI yyy --> find guaranteed 5 beakers; check

- Go to POI zzz --> find a guaranteed auger schematic; check

- Go to POI www --> find a guaranteed crucible; check

- You are hungry? Go to POI ggg to find guaranteed food for several days; check

 

How boring would that be? Every playthrough would be exactly the same?!

 

Yeah, maybe you could not find or craft a steel axe until now. But do you really need a steel axe to survive? Maybe you have an absolutely fine level 5 fireman's axe instead so this is your playthrough with the red axe. Cool, never had that before.

Maybe you could not find a beaker yet. So you have to check traders more often for ammo crafting stuff, disassemble more cars for fuel etc. If you never had that before this is a unique playstyle for that particular savegame. Cool.

 

I didn't know that sewing kits are so rare with A20, therefore I have carelessly used my first six for double pocket mods. Lots of ingame days later I could not find any more sewing kits, no headlight mod (but the schematic) nor a miner's helmet. Still using torches and flashlights and relying more on light designs from the developers. Is it challenging? Yes. Does it make the game unplayable? No. Do I feel the need to open a topic here, ranting about how impossible it is to find sewing kits or headlight mod? No. I accept this uniqe challenge this specific playthrough throws at me and enjoy it nontheless.

 

With RNG you get those random moments while looting where you feel like a small child on Christmas when you finally find those items you have been longing for a long time. Don't want to miss that.

[SenpaiThatIngnoresYou]

42 minutes ago, ricp said:

 

Surely this is the same for almost every alpha, I've seen myself in A19 take 60 days to find the crucible schematic. RNG was always part of the game, I really don't think A20 changes much of that. Some balancing here and there? Perhaps, but in terms of range, the worry is if you buff it, you just end up with a very easy game.

 

Just for reference, people complain about beakers being difficult and I presume that is one of the RNG things you are complaining about because it can't be crafted (it is daft it can't be, it's essentially a glass jar - which you can craft - with lines on the side). In the three longish playthroughs I've had of A20, in the first I simply couldn't find the beaker anywhere even past day 40 - although the trader did sell complete chem benches, which I think should be nerfed but that's another discussion - in the other two playthroughs I had beakers in the trader's inventory literally on day one. They cost 1500 so for day 1 that was a bit of push, although trader quests are overly generous, but I certainly went out of my way to purchase and store for later. The idea they don't exist in the world, or that they are impossible to come by, is just not borne out with the facts.

 

Also this..

 

Not really sure what you are talking about, you have the ability to create a pipe shotgun and while, yes, it is hardly the greatest weapon, but you will create the tier based on your boomstick perk levels. Your suggestion you "can't" is simply wrong in this case.

 

 

Edit: I just wanted to add, I get the frustration with RNG, trust me I do. It's not that I don't relate to the frustration of needing something you can't craft yet seems to be very rare in your game world, I absolutely do. I just don't think there are many other solutions out there to provide a consistently different game experience each and every time.

 

Calipers. 

 

Everyone that has been around for a while knows what i am talking about. I miss them. I really do. If you use those irl then you will have them in your desk, they are a very important tool. I wish they would bring them back, but instead of being necessary they would add a 10% chance for crafted items in the work bench to be one tier higher. 

 

I am wondering about OP's looting habits, level, and install. Is there a mod conflict going on? I have seen some threads here about the loot table being changed and at some loot stages things will be empty. Could this be part of op's problem? 

[Tmodloader]

I think you need to play the game finding lootstage sweetspots to get what you want. I haven't found a beaker but I don't mind the rng. Actually I think progression happens too quickly, or too slowly, but there's never a good in between. I personally would like lootstage and enemies to not scale to level past what the devs expect people to be at on their first horde night for enemies. I think the lootstage scaling to level hurts the game a bit. Lootstage should scale with other activities such as days survived or something. That'd actually be awesome. 

[ricp]

1 hour ago, Tmodloader said:

Actually I think progression happens too quickly, or too slowly, but there's never a good in between.

 

A continuing battle, irrespective of the alpha, imo.

 

I have sympathy for TFP though, it has to be hard to pitch the progression so it'll not put off new players while catering for the fairly large community that has been playing the game for 5+ years.

[pahbi]

9 hours ago, gecko2015 said:

The only reason I can see people defending the new RNG system they have is because they found what they needed in their current play through, so therefore you should've too.

 

That's the problem with RNG. Some people get lucky and get everything they need - others are left frustrated with a level 125 character who can't even make a Steel Pickaxe because you haven't found the schematic for it yet and the traders haven't offered it yet.

 

For a game that relies so heavily on RNG, there should be a robust bad luck protection system in place. 

 

I'm sure severe bad luck is mitigated on servers where many people are playing and there is an economy going on, but for folks like myself who generally just play solo, we're left with editing the xml files to compensate for really bad luck.

 

I'm greatful the devs put in those xml files so we can edit them, but I'd rather just be building forts and killing zombies.  

 

 

[meganoth]

T

9 hours ago, gecko2015 said:

...

 

But A20's update of having almost everything requiring recipes has made the leveling system nearly pointless (not completely, but nearly). Why even mention the supposed ability to "craft quality 3 fair shotguns" in Boomstick if you haven't found the recipe for it yet? Because you can't "craft quality 3 fair shotguns" as it claims.

 

...

 

Which is quite ironic as the mechanic that you can't craft pump shotguns or combat shotguns (or steel tools) without recipes has not been changed from A19 at all.

(As a side note, the weapon crafting mechanic might change in A21 according to Madmole, but thats a long way off)

 

Many survival games operate with RNG, I don't see a conflict here. 7D2D has multiple ways to get specific important things to make RNG less random.

 

Please tell us your level, whether you play with mods or changed options. And please tell us your loot stage (you can see your loot stage when you press "B" and switch to the middle tab, it is the last line). Just for comparison.

 

 

 

Just now, pahbi said:

 

For a game that relies so heavily on RNG, there should be a robust bad luck protection system in place. 

 

There is, many items have multiple sources and all items that depend on RNG are optional.

 

Just now, pahbi said:

 

I'm sure severe bad luck is mitigated on servers where many people are playing and there is an economy going on, but for folks like myself who generally just play solo, we're left with editing the xml files to compensate for really bad luck.

 

I'm greatful the devs put in those xml files so we can edit them, but I'd rather just be building forts and killing zombies.  

 

 

 

If you feel you need an item why change xml? Just get it from Creative Menue.