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A20 - Leveling is now pointless


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A20 is the first alpha in awhile that I have bought every work station before actually finding any of the schematics for them. Prior you could find them reliably in destroyed stations not so much with this alpha. However this alpha is a huge step up it terms of the gridding cities. 

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10 hours ago, gecko2015 said:

I simply don't enjoy the game anymore with the move they've made in A20 to a near complete reliance on RNG.


I want to say that the change to being able to craft T2 and T3 gear being reliant upon finding a schematic happened in A18 more than two years ago. I’m pretty sure the complaints about being doubly affected by rng thanks to schematics and items like beakers and acid has been around a long long time. The devs are most definitely aware of the complaint so we will see what they choose to do with it. This is not a brand new change with A20 that they might be unaware of the ramifications. 

Edited by Roland (see edit history)
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11 hours ago, gecko2015 said:

I've got 800hrs in game total and it's nice seeing 7 Days come such a long way. Overall I think A20 is a GOOD update - but with one MAJOR drawback.

 

I simply don't enjoy the game anymore with the move they've made in A20 to a near complete reliance on RNG. Just go look at the overwhelming threads on these forums and you'll see people rightfully asking others about spending tens of hours (or more) looking for specific recipes or a non-crafted part that they haven't found yet and you'll see my point.

 

You need to find a recipe to make virtually everything in the game. But even after you find the recipe, an item within that recipe can require their own special items that can't be crafted (i.e. beakers and acid) - so you're getting double RNG'd here! As you first need the recipe that can only be found and then you need the part that can only be found in loot or traders.

 

Don't get me wrong, I understand the issue they were trying to fix - which was in prior versions, at a certain point in the game-level, there was absolutely no reason or need to venture out and search for stuff since everything could be crafted/made in-house.

 

But A20's update of having almost everything requiring recipes has made the leveling system nearly pointless (not completely, but nearly). Why even mention the supposed ability to "craft quality 3 fair shotguns" in Boomstick if you haven't found the recipe for it yet? Because you can't "craft quality 3 fair shotguns" as it claims.

 

It seems they tried to find a balance between crafting and looting by allowing you to create simple shotguns (like the pipe gun and double barrel) whilst making the actual pump shotgun and auto-shotgun require schematics. But once you add in ALL of the other RNG into the game, it just makes the game less rewarding by making the player to heavily rely on RNG and not time-played or the skill of your character. From beakers to acid, to guns, bullets, crafting stations, mining tools, motorized tools, I could go on; the entire game is now a hide and seek game HOPING you find a schematic for that ONE thing you need and less of it's original survival RPG feel it used to have.

 

What do you guys think? I honestly don't know of a good way to balance what they're trying to achieve - and I'm torn. On the one hand, I see what they're doing as it's forcing me to go out and search more, but on the other hand I'm not having fun because I'm bound by RNG of what I need.

 

 

Hey!

as I mentioned before, my gf is a senior software product owner .. wtv that title is lol

 

She saw the vehicles going underground, her plant seeds getting lost when she harvests them, etc… 

 

They keep playing with the what so called “polishing” the game before official release.. stuck on alpha after 10years…

 

I told her how can they mess up turrets and vehicles going underground after 10 years ?!

 

she said it’s because they using that same code for past 10 years and every time they making some changes they not modifying the other codes so it messes things up… she also said, she doesn’t understand why they keep twitching these same old things if they were working good already?! Why not just focus on making and adding new features, new content’s, instead of all this polishing they call it just focus on A21 let’s say with bandits, new areas, mobs, bosses, challenges etc….

 

they built this car and now every now and then they changing the colour! That’s what’s happening… just make other models… make other cars… 

 

take the same zombie and change the look of it.. take the same stone and make it prettier..make the tree fuller …so what… 

 

it’s like someone made them a code and now he doesn’t work there no more so they just twitching that same code little by little for past 10 years… just move on man, make something new!! The QA guy calls A20 stable version lol what a joke maybe they shouldn’t test their product by playing it with god mode on so they never get to ride a bike or use a turret and find it underground >.>
 

money and time is going to the wrong place I believe! They wasting their fundings in same place over and over… they trying to reinvent the wheel for past 10 years… just move on and make something new instead of twitching that same old code ! Break it!! Now fix it!! Break it again, now fix it…. Creating jobs for themselves lmao

1 hour ago, Ornias said:

A20 is the first alpha in awhile that I have bought every work station before actually finding any of the schematics for them. Prior you could find them reliably in destroyed stations not so much with this alpha. However this alpha is a huge step up it terms of the gridding cities. 

I did same honestly, I actually bought all the stations from traders or found the schematics.. didn’t spend any pts in skills either.. 

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10 hours ago, gecko2015 said:

The only reason I can see people defending the new RNG system they have is because they found what they needed in their current play through, so therefore you should've too.

 

That's the problem with RNG. Some people get lucky and get everything they need - others are left frustrated with a level 125 character who can't even make a Steel Pickaxe because you haven't found the schematic for it yet and the traders haven't offered it yet.

Just because you do not have steel tools or a specific weapon , does not mean you can't play or enjoy the game. It should be even harder, game just gets boring after you have everything , and you just usually restart. And, it is not a new thing, it was here, and it happened, its all about random, sometimes i get a minibike at trader on day 4, and sometimes it takes 30 days. Same for other hard to find. A 19 i was searching for a crucible 60 game days, visiting 5 traders and looting, and then, after i found one, every trader on map had :)

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what is the very root of this problem? answer: progressing too quickly means, that a player gets the very best solution for a problem too early in game. IMHO, every problem should be solvable at any character level BUT not necessarily with the very best solution.

blueprints and recipes should be lootable AND linked to the basic attributes like strength, agility or intellect, but the quality and diversification should be linked to specific skills like boomstick, archery etc.

furthermore, loot and crafting outputs should be linked to the "knowledge" of a player.

 

so, what do I mean with all of this? let me explain with examples:

you start a game and decide to develope your char to a muscle-packed badass (heavy on attribute strength). your char gets infected at char-level 2. antibiotics would be needed to cure the infection. but because you unlocked the tea recipe by levelling strength to lvl 1, you are not at the mercy of chances. you stop the infection with tea, but you have to drink tons of tea regularly to cure the infection completely. because you also invest points into fortitude for that Pain Tolerance-perk, you can also level Living Off The Land that makes you find honey while you cut down trees. so you have a better option to cure the infection - but still not the best (namely antibiotics).

 

later, you have found almost all the parts to craft a motorbike. so you unlock the motorbike-blueprint by levelling intellect up to lvl. 3. now, you can craft the missing parts and assemble your new two-wheeler. but because you are only at intellect lvl. 3 and you did not invest skillpoints into Grease Monkey, crafting motorbike parts costs a lot more resources and the vehicle itself wears down quickly.

you drive to the trader with your (already not so) new chopper. he has another motorbike in his inventory, but it's also only a lvl 1 one (reason: intellect lvl. 3). furthermore, you find a lvl. 6 steel club in his inventory (reason: strength nearly maxed and high level of Pummelpete).

 

what do you think?

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1 hour ago, meganoth said:

If you feel you need an item why change xml? Just get it from Creative Menue.

I can't speak for pahbi, but as someone who is currently using a mod that adds craftable sewing kits and another for craftable Santa hats... I like both the loot aspect of the game as well as the crafting. If loot isn't delivering, then I'd rather move it to crafting if I can. The (seasonally appropriate - Dough got it perfect) ingredients needed for the Santa hat mean that effort is still required, I still have to work for the thing that I want, so I still feel like I earned it.

 

The sewing kits aren't hard to make but I haven't actually had to craft one yet because as soon as I installed the mod, the game was like, "Oh, you wanted some? Here you go!" LOL I had mods with craftables that used sewing kits which is why I was needing a few more to begin with. And I used to get a lot of lacerations earlier in A20 for some reason. I seem to be have tougher skin these days so I'm not stitching myself up as often.

 

I added another mod that makes cooking pots drop more often. I don't even actually need them. By the time I'm actually hurting for not having one, I can just make my own in the forge (which I have by the end of day 2 at the latest). We can slow-boil murky water without one now. But the fact that there were all of these kitchens without any pots in them was really bothering me. :D 

 

All of that said, I definitely haven't had as much of an issue with A20 RNG as some in this discussion. It's been random but not to the point of real pain. I've found (or been able to buy) enough useful items that I don't feel bothered about not finding all the schematics. Taking both sets of trader perks offsets that as well. There are a few things I do wish were added (or returned - I see that commented-out code, sirs) to be unlocked for crafting with perks, but not being able to craft everything does make those finds more special, which is why I haven't added modlets for those other items. Many of us who use mods still like balance, it's just a different balance that's more tuned to how we want to play.

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12 hours ago, gecko2015 said:

others are left frustrated with a level 125 character who can't even make a Steel Pickaxe because you haven't found the schematic for it yet and the traders haven't offered it yet.

I call BS on that one.

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2 hours ago, saoron666 said:

Hey!

as I mentioned before, my gf is a senior software product owner .. wtv that title is lol

 

She saw the vehicles going underground, her plant seeds getting lost when she harvests them, etc… 

 

They keep playing with the what so called “polishing” the game before official release.. stuck on alpha after 10years…

 

I told her how can they mess up turrets and vehicles going underground after 10 years ?!

 

she said it’s because they using that same code for past 10 years and every time they making some changes they not modifying the other codes so it messes things up… she also said, she doesn’t understand why they keep twitching these same old things if they were working good already?! Why not just focus on making and adding new features, new content’s, instead of all this polishing they call it just focus on A21 let’s say with bandits, new areas, mobs, bosses, challenges etc….

 

they built this car and now every now and then they changing the colour! That’s what’s happening… just make other models… make other cars… 

 

take the same zombie and change the look of it.. take the same stone and make it prettier..make the tree fuller …so what… 

 

it’s like someone made them a code and now he doesn’t work there no more so they just twitching that same code little by little for past 10 years… just move on man, make something new!! The QA guy calls A20 stable version lol what a joke maybe they shouldn’t test their product by playing it with god mode on so they never get to ride a bike or use a turret and find it underground >.>
 

money and time is going to the wrong place I believe! They wasting their fundings in same place over and over… they trying to reinvent the wheel for past 10 years… just move on and make something new instead of twitching that same old code ! Break it!! Now fix it!! Break it again, now fix it…. Creating jobs for themselves lmao

I did same honestly, I actually bought all the stations from traders or found the schematics.. didn’t spend any pts in skills either.. 

I highly suspect based on this comment that your GF has no idea about game development, which is a completely different discipline that other types of software development. Its also clear that you dont realize this is an alpha. If you have an issue playing an alpha stage game in development you are in the wrong place. This game would be terrible if they just kept adding new features and never adjusting balance...wtf

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12 minutes ago, Justinus said:

I highly suspect based on this comment that your GF has no idea about game development, which is a completely different discipline that other types of software development. Its also clear that you dont realize this is an alpha. If you have an issue playing an alpha stage game in development you are in the wrong place. This game would be terrible if they just kept adding new features and never adjusting balance...wtf

To further call BS, there is a difference between code and a dataset, and she should know that.

Most (if not all) of our loot issues are tweaking of the dataset (loot tables) that determines what we get not with the RNG engine itself (the code).

 

Edited by Krougal (see edit history)
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3 hours ago, saoron666 said:

Hey!

as I mentioned before, my gf is a senior software product owner .. wtv that title is lol

 

You may not know this but I have about 20 buddies who are senior software programmers, level designers, and play testers for a little old game known as 7 Days to Die. So listen up. 
 

3 hours ago, saoron666 said:

it’s like someone made them a code and now he doesn’t work there no more so they just twitching that same code little by little for past 10 years…


with all due respect to your gf, my buddies told me that the code for land generation was completely overhauled and there is no old code from Alpha 1 that anyone is twitching around with as far as how the world generates and interacts with objects and entities. 
 

Also my buddies did some complex calculations probably using internal data your gf doesn’t have access to and they came up with 8 years in development rather than 10 years. Weird.

 

3 hours ago, saoron666 said:

The QA guy calls A20 stable version lol what a joke maybe they shouldn’t test their product by playing it with god mode on so they never get to ride a bike or use a turret and find it underground >.>


While your gf was chuckling about the QA guy, I asked my buddies what is meant by the term “stable” within the context of early access and they said that it means it is simply good enough to play without undue fatal crashing occurring on a wide scale basis. As long as game corrupting crashes are marginal so that the majority of players can test and report, the game is considered stable for their purposes. 
 

Your gf probably doesn’t deal with early access for public testing of her indev software so “stable” might mean to her something completely different.
 

3 hours ago, saoron666 said:

she also said, she doesn’t understand why they keep twitching these same old things if they were working good already?! Why not just focus on making and adding new features, new content’s, instead of all this polishing they call it just focus on A21 let’s say with bandits, new areas, mobs, bosses, challenges etc….


My buddies and your gf probably have different standards of quality that they feel satisfy “good enough”.  My buddies say that if a software company is willing to spend the time and money to polish and improve quality rather than just add more mediocrity in additional forms and models, the customers will appreciate it. We hit 70K + concurrent players this weekend which indicates a record breaking group of customers that are willing to play the current version in the manner it was delivered. 
 

Maybe your gf has some perspectives relevant to her industry but for the context of this game in Steam early access and still being an alpha product— my buddies really seem to understand what is going on with 7 Days to Die.

Edited by Roland (see edit history)
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46 minutes ago, Roland said:

You may not know this but I have about 20 buddies who are senior software programmers, level designers, and play testers...

 

(Certified geek since 1969).

 

 

 

-Arch Necromancer Morloc 💀

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7 hours ago, meganoth said:

T

 

Which is quite ironic as the mechanic that you can't craft pump shotguns or combat shotguns (or steel tools) without recipes has not been changed from A19 at all.

(As a side note, the weapon crafting mechanic might change in A21 according to Madmole, but thats a long way off)

 

Many survival games operate with RNG, I don't see a conflict here. 7D2D has multiple ways to get specific important things to make RNG less random.

 

Please tell us your level, whether you play with mods or changed options. And please tell us your loot stage (you can see your loot stage when you press "B" and switch to the middle tab, it is the last line). Just for comparison.

 

 

 

 

There is, many items have multiple sources and all items that depend on RNG are optional.

 

 

If you feel you need an item why change xml? Just get it from Creative Menue.

 

Thank god our #1 fanboy was here to correct everyone.

 

I feel a ton better now.

 

 

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It's not precisely a quote, but...

 

“The world is full of @%$#s, the number increasing rapidly the further one gets from Navezgane, Arizona.” - Rekt Maclean

 

This post is apropos of nothing.  Carry on.

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Complete reliance on RNG?

In the past, I remember some games spending days trying to find just a cooking pot and weeks to get a beaker.

I remember mining for days trying to locate where the good stuff is.

Construction materials weren't just handed to you in POIs either.

A20 is Easy Street.

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I remember the "Forge ahead" book. You had to find it to make a forge. No other way. It could take weeks to find it if unlucky. And what a nice surprise it was if you found it in the first few days.

 

Overall i don´t think people are unhappy with the changes in A20. There is a few whining threads, but if you break those topics down, it´s only a few making a lot of noise. See farming on the steam forums. It´s an endless thread, but only a few that really cry loud.

 

Player numbers definitly speak for A20. The game had the all time high for peak and average players since A20 released. And not just by a little, it´s a huge increase. 

Edited by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)
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5 hours ago, Justinus said:

I highly suspect based on this comment that your GF has no idea about game development, which is a completely different discipline that other types of software development. Its also clear that you dont realize this is an alpha. If you have an issue playing an alpha stage game in development you are in the wrong place. This game would be terrible if they just kept adding new features and never adjusting balance...wtf

Idk what your comment has to do with anything I’ve said ..: and it’s been alpha for past 10+years btw fyi…

the game was perfectly fine on alpha 19

why keep messing with it ?!

Just focus on your alpha 21/new features/ new skills/ etc…

not just same poi with different names and same loots/mobs 

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2 minutes ago, saoron666 said:

Idk what your comment has to do with anything I’ve said ..: and it’s been alpha for past 10+years btw fyi…

the game was perfectly fine on alpha 19

why keep messing with it ?!

Just focus on your alpha 21/new features/ new skills/ etc…

not just same poi with different names and same loots/mobs 

8 years in Alpha, not 10+

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5 hours ago, Roland said:

 

You may not know this but I have about 20 buddies who are senior software programmers, level designers, and play testers for a little old game known as 7 Days to Die. So listen up. 
 


with all due respect to your gf, my buddies told me that the code for land generation was completely overhauled and there is no old code from Alpha 1 that anyone is twitching around with as far as how the world generates and interacts with objects and entities. 
 

Also my buddies did some complex calculations probably using internal data your gf doesn’t have access to and they came up with 8 years in development rather than 10 years. Weird.

 


While your gf was chuckling about the QA guy, I asked my buddies what is meant by the term “stable” within the context of early access and they said that it means it is simply good enough to play without undue fatal crashing occurring on a wide scale basis. As long as game corrupting crashes are marginal so that the majority of players can test and report, the game is considered stable for their purposes. 
 

Your gf probably doesn’t deal with early access for public testing of her indev software so “stable” might mean to her something completely different.
 


My buddies and your gf probably have different standards of quality that they feel satisfy “good enough”.  My buddies say that if a software company is willing to spend the time and money to polish and improve quality rather than just add more mediocrity in additional forms and models, the customers will appreciate it. We hit 70K + concurrent players this weekend which indicates a record breaking group of customers that are willing to play the current version in the manner it was delivered. 
 

Maybe your gf has some perspectives relevant to her industry but for the context of this game in Steam early access and still being an alpha product— my buddies really seem to understand what is going on with 7 Days to Die.

 

@Roland Yes you are right my gf does have higher standards. Her field is in online security, banking , financials … so they can’t afford mediocrity… «  basic issues » ..

 

Your so called buddies, say that stable means a product without any crashes…but when your turret or car disappears and you have no choice to EXIT the game and come

back , for me it’s considered as bad as a crash!

 

since you need to restart ..

 when you rewrite a part of a code or entire code you would expect a pre existing functionality or features to be TESTED FIRST and WORKING.

 

but right I guess it does come down to standards and her standards are different lol

 

20 senior soft dev, prog…etc and while driving you hit invisible things and your car flips over or just go underground and come back out…go figure

 

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3 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

I remember the "Forge ahead" book. You had to find it to make a forge. No other way. It could take weeks to find it if unlucky. And what a nice surprise it was if you found it in the first few days.

 

Overall i don´t think people are unhappy with the changes in A20. There is a few whining threads, but if you break those topics down, it´s only a few making a lot of noise. See farming on the steam forums. It´s an endless thread, but only a few that really cry loud.

 

Player numbers definitly speak for A20. The game had the all time high for peak and average players since A20 released. And not just by a little, it´s a huge increase. 

 

3 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

Don’t forget the Minibike for Dummies book.

Yeah, those did suck, and then there were the calipers. Oh and the blood-draw kit, which you couldn't find and then suddenly every nurse dropped 1 and you had 20. And the beaker. There were also less items overall, certainly less books. Once you found crack a book you were set though. I feel like bookshelves now give far more paper, not to mention I get the same schematics over and over. The off-road light I can use for TP, the other vehicle mods forget it. The trigger mods (and honestly, does anyone use them FFS?) I will find over and over but god-forbid I can get a rad-remover.

 

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2 hours ago, saoron666 said:

Your so called buddies

Yeah, they’re fake. I just felt by referencing industry knowledgeable friends it would bolster my own personal opinion. You caught me….

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37 minutes ago, Krougal said:

I feel like bookshelves now give far more paper, not to mention I get the same schematics over and over. The off-road light I can use for TP, the other vehicle mods forget it. The trigger mods (and honestly, does anyone use them FFS?) I will find over and over but god-forbid I can get a rad-remover.

 

This is the one thing that's really bugging me about A20.  Finding schematics is such a pain now with every bookshelf (even the old, "good" ones) mostly just giving paper.  Yes, I know there are books/schematics in crates now, but they tend to repeat quite often and rarely do I find the ones I'd actually like.

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15 hours ago, pahbi said:

 

Thank god our #1 fanboy was here to correct everyone.

 

I feel a ton better now.

 

 

 

Nice insult with the irony mixed in, but where are the actual arguments?

 

The alternative to having random progression gates is something like a level gate. You just wait for it to fall into your lap, automatically and dependably. Is that really how you want to play the game, every run the same way? There are some players who seem to be happy playing the same thing again and again without variation, but I'm relatively sure most players need variance in a healthy dose to keep playing the same game again and again.

 

If everything can be built immedaitely from basic resources then looting will be just for getting stuff to scrap so you can craft the things you need, similar to items that you just sell to the trader to convert them to useful stuff. The same complaint about traders being to powerful because of their large selection can then be applied to crafting.

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)
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