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A20 - Leveling is now pointless


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10 minutes ago, Urban Blackbear said:

 

I already have a club. And if you insinuate that I'm entitled and then reference MMOs again I'll use it.

Wait. 7d2d is a MMO too right? Haven't tried it yet, but heard there were absolutely no problems with having 100k users on my server! :peep:

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11 minutes ago, Pernicious said:

 

Welcome to the club. 43 for another few weeks.

I'm coming. 38 XD

 

24 minutes ago, Urban Blackbear said:

 

My first gaming experience was an Atari 2600 and my first console that I owned was an NES that I mowed lawns all summer for because we were poor and that was the only way I was ever seeing one. They were the same price as consoles are today. In 1987.

 

I know how you feel. My first console was an Xbox 360 that I acquired in 2015.  All pre-Xbox (Atari, NES and so on) I met (and played) at friends house

 

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3 hours ago, Urban Blackbear said:

 

So you' prefer players to maybe never get a Q6 version of the weapons and armor they're specced into? Sounds absolutely frustrating to me. 

 

Yeah, I'll double down on my opinion and say, "absolutely". Tier 5 quality with 3 mods and fully perked is going to be plenty to be able to survive with against pretty much anything the game throws at you. And if you say, "but I'm playing Insane Nightmare Horde Night Daily 300% xp and Tier 5 is not enough to survive against that" then I'll just say you picked that setting to be challenged so...be challenged.

 

Tier 6 is supposed to be placeholder for legendary gear and legendary gear by its very nature is not something you and everyone else on your team are kitted out with completely. It's freaking LEGENDARY. Maybe in your lifetime you come across 3 or 4 pieces of legendary level stuff. If you find a legendary M60 but you perked all the way up shotguns and it bugs you so much then buy the elixyr that lets you respec and change up what you are doing. You played the whole first part of your game with shotguns and now you can play the rest until you feel done with a legendary M60. Sounds fun to me.

 

I'm not super bothered by it right now since Tier 6 is supposed to be a placeholder and old timers are used to running around all decked out in purple stuff-- but if the devs run out of time and change their minds and decide to just go with what we have right now instead of designing actual legendary tier gear then I absolutely would want them to make Tier 6 a lot more rare than it is even if it means you don't get a legendary version of the weapon you perked up to the top of the tree. And don't worry about my opinion anyway. The devs don't seem to share it since they obviously know how to make things like beakers and crucibles have legendary rarity and they've never applied that to purple gear-- so they must like to see lots of it in the game. ;)

 

I'm 52. My first console was something that had Breakout and Pong preloaded on it. That's all you could play. There were no cartridges-- probably 1976 or 1977 if I remember correctly.

Edited by Roland (see edit history)
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@Roland I can respect that. Especially hearing the bit about Legendary weapons. In that case I would even agree that T5s are good enough. I would not have guessed that was the intent with them since they drop as much as the T5 stuff in the last few Alpha's. Even in the new Alpha I got a T6 Pipe Machinegun fairly early.

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5 minutes ago, Urban Blackbear said:

@Roland I can respect that. Especially hearing the bit about Legendary weapons. In that case I would even agree that T5s are good enough. I would not have guessed that was the intent with them since they drop as much as the T5 stuff in the last few Alpha's. Even in the new Alpha I got a T6 Pipe Machinegun fairly early.

 

My hope is that T6 will drop back down to be the top tier that is craftable and that they will have truly legendary gear that can only be found and that it is truly rare. I have no idea what is going to happen though in this regard since time is clearly running out if they want to get to gold before their 10 year anniversary hits...

 

If we do get legendary gear I want it to be so rare that people come here to brag about what they found and nobody believes them and when they show a screenshot to prove it everyone accuses them of faking the pic... ;) 

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51 minutes ago, Roland said:

I'm 52. My first console was something that had Breakout and Pong preloaded on it. That's all you could play. There were no cartridges-- probably 1976 or 1977 if I remember correctly.

 

WHIPPERSNAPPER. Why I was already potty-trained when you were born! :D I had that same console. I think maybe we had two? One where the rotary controls were fixed to the unit ("stop bumping your sister, Boidster!") and another where they could disconnect. I might be misremembering the upgrade to the 2600 though. I also got a portable console around that time.

 

image.jpeg.fb6cf27b1119a9fc0a3f26a9a3165ef8.jpeg

 

37 minutes ago, Roland said:

If we do get legendary gear I want it to be so rare that people come here to brag about what they found and nobody believes them and when they show a screenshot to prove it everyone accuses them of faking the pic...

 

I doubt TFP want to the the last of the cool kids to contribute to the glorious new future of The Blockchain. Get some NFTs up in this @%$#. Didn't need all these excess watts anyhow. :classic_rolleyes:

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5 minutes ago, Boidster said:

image.jpeg.fb6cf27b1119a9fc0a3f26a9a3165ef8.jpeg

God I loved that game.  43 for 24 more days for me.  \

 

Having started a second playthrough on A20 (stable now versus the initial experimental release) and it really feels like loot has gotten nerfed in the interim.  Obviously not a large enough sample size to really know for sure, but I feel like the loot I've gotten so far has been..really bad.  Heck, I can't even find a decent number of eggs...I've been living on grilled meat.

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2 hours ago, Roland said:

 

Yeah, I'll double down on my opinion and say, "absolutely". Tier 5 quality with 3 mods and fully perked is going to be plenty to be able to survive with against pretty much anything the game throws at you. And if you say, "but I'm playing Insane Nightmare Horde Night Daily 300% xp and Tier 5 is not enough to survive against that" then I'll just say you picked that setting to be challenged so...be challenged.

 

Tier 6 is supposed to be placeholder for legendary gear and legendary gear by its very nature is not something you and everyone else on your team are kitted out with completely. It's freaking LEGENDARY. Maybe in your lifetime you come across 3 or 4 pieces of legendary level stuff. If you find a legendary M60 but you perked all the way up shotguns and it bugs you so much then buy the elixyr that lets you respec and change up what you are doing. You played the whole first part of your game with shotguns and now you can play the rest until you feel done with a legendary M60. Sounds fun to me.

 

I'm not super bothered by it right now since Tier 6 is supposed to be a placeholder and old timers are used to running around all decked out in purple stuff-- but if the devs run out of time and change their minds and decide to just go with what we have right now instead of designing actual legendary tier gear then I absolutely would want them to make Tier 6 a lot more rare than it is even if it means you don't get a legendary version of the weapon you perked up to the top of the tree. And don't worry about my opinion anyway. The devs don't seem to share it since they obviously know how to make things like beakers and crucibles have legendary rarity and they've never applied that to purple gear-- so they must like to see lots of it in the game. ;)

 

I'm 52. My first console was something that had Breakout and Pong preloaded on it. That's all you could play. There were no cartridges-- probably 1976 or 1977 if I remember correctly.

 

2 hours ago, Roland said:

 

My hope is that T6 will drop back down to be the top tier that is craftable and that they will have truly legendary gear that can only be found and that it is truly rare. I have no idea what is going to happen though in this regard since time is clearly running out if they want to get to gold before their 10 year anniversary hits...

 

If we do get legendary gear I want it to be so rare that people come here to brag about what they found and nobody believes them and when they show a screenshot to prove it everyone accuses them of faking the pic... ;) 

 

I decided to quote both because  this will be easier-  from my point of view TFP too much want to make something in cod + dying light style - i mean : player and his weapons perks and buffs are main zombie defens and traps are only "addition " to this. Well i quiet understand - they are spending a lot of time making poi, RWG etc so they want to forcing players to looting insteand cutting 100 tree per day to make spike field. Damn  honestly from my point of view they almost forget about horror and "tower defense" to focusing on looting and pois.

Damn rly beakers are so hard to find damn idk why because i think it would be quiet common think after zombie outbreake- i can find this at least in 10 shopes in 5 km range.

And nope- bordelands do legendary guns good. From my point of view "legendary" weapon shoudn't be   T6 but "reskin" with some better stats : legendary hunting rifle - springfield with bigger mags,  legendary smg- uzi , legendary m60 - m249 saw etc. So this woud make legendary weapon worth to looking for- in bordelands legendary guns are so good because they looks and works diffrent, well shiny pokemon in rarer that normal variant and looks diffrent etc 

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3 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

 

 

I decided to quote both because  this will be easier-  from my point of view TFP too much want to make something in cod + dying light style - i mean : player and his weapons perks and buffs are main zombie defens and traps are only "addition " to this. Well i quiet understand - they are spending a lot of time making poi, RWG etc so they want to forcing players to looting insteand cutting 100 tree per day to make spike field. Damn  honestly from my point of view they almost forget about horror and "tower defense" to focusing on looting and pois.

Damn rly beakers are so hard to find damn idk why because i think it would be quiet common think after zombie outbreake- i can find this at least in 10 shopes in 5 km range.

And nope- bordelands do legendary guns good. From my point of view "legendary" weapon shoudn't be   T6 but "reskin" with some better stats : legendary hunting rifle - springfield with bigger mags,  legendary smg- uzi , legendary m60 - m249 saw etc. So this woud make legendary weapon worth to looking for- in bordelands legendary guns are so good because they looks and works diffrent, well shiny pokemon in rarer that normal variant and looks diffrent etc 

just cus you went to a medical poi does not guarantee  you will find a beaker the first few day, if you cant find a beaker i recommend you increas the loot in the setting and make the game easier  hell might as well spawn the  item  lol.

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I don't mind the RNG for the non essential stuff, vehicles for example. Sooner or later they turn up at the trader, might not be specifically what you want, but minibike, motorcycle, 4x4, Gyro all go brrrr. What I find frustrating is when my main build weapon is nowehere to be seen. The save before this I ran a fortitude build and when I stopped the save on Day 80, I still hadn't seen the steel knuckles. Then I start a new save using a different skill tree and the trader has the recipe on day 7. Once you max out a skill I think the drop rate on the recipe for the main weapon of that skill should be better.

Edited by Cobretti_ (see edit history)
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6 hours ago, Matt115 said:

 

 

I decided to quote both because  this will be easier-  from my point of view TFP too much want to make something in cod + dying light style - i mean : player and his weapons perks and buffs are main zombie defens and traps are only "addition " to this. Well i quiet understand - they are spending a lot of time making poi, RWG etc so they want to forcing players to looting insteand cutting 100 tree per day to make spike field. Damn  honestly from my point of view they almost forget about horror and "tower defense" to focusing on looting and pois.

Damn rly beakers are so hard to find damn idk why because i think it would be quiet common think after zombie outbreake- i can find this at least in 10 shopes in 5 km range.

And nope- bordelands do legendary guns good. From my point of view "legendary" weapon shoudn't be   T6 but "reskin" with some better stats : legendary hunting rifle - springfield with bigger mags,  legendary smg- uzi , legendary m60 - m249 saw etc. So this woud make legendary weapon worth to looking for- in bordelands legendary guns are so good because they looks and works diffrent, well shiny pokemon in rarer that normal variant and looks diffrent etc 

 

Damn...

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10 hours ago, Roland said:

 

My hope is that T6 will drop back down to be the top tier that is craftable and that they will have truly legendary gear that can only be found and that it is truly rare. I have no idea what is going to happen though in this regard since time is clearly running out if they want to get to gold before their 10 year anniversary hits...

 

If we do get legendary gear I want it to be so rare that people come here to brag about what they found and nobody believes them and when they show a screenshot to prove it everyone accuses them of faking the pic... ;) 

 

I'm going out of my "rarely-posting" ways to say this : I love that idea, very rewarding and all. Plus, isn't there a glimpse of that already ? As in the legendary stone axe or something ?

 

Furthermore, it fits the POI/Dungeon system nicely : at the end of a POI instead of finding crates of yet an other T3 iron shovel (that you could craft yourself), there's a chance of finding a *lengendary* iron shovel ! Neat !

Edited by Misamor (see edit history)
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Lol I've never found a beaker in my day 110 game as a level 150 character. My level 150 character still wouldn't be able to craft a chemistry station if he didn't find the beaker by luck sold at a trader. And I found steel tools schematic by level 130, but by then I already looted level 6 steel tools. Funny update

Edited by DominionZA (see edit history)
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11 hours ago, NBornkilla said:

just cus you went to a medical poi does not guarantee  you will find a beaker the first few day, if you cant find a beaker i recommend you increas the loot in the setting and make the game easier  hell might as well spawn the  item  lol.

Well one time i had 25 day + 120 min as day and we coudn't find any beaker for so long time.

4 hours ago, Roland said:

 

Damn...

what ?  I know i'm controversial sometimes but this what i feel - metal gear survival is in my opinion the best "how zombie survival sandbox game" should looks like - ofc this game have a lot of problems- npc, story , types of enemies but "base and survive" part is very good. 

If you want to do "base survival mode" you have to grind a lot  of materials, ammo etc to survive the zombie attack. And... most of your job do turrets and barricades, you have to killing kamikaze and "jump" zombies. And this is so good - you know if you get S that mean your defense system were good.

So i will give example - BF1 and Verdun are both ww1 games right? but bf1 is too much dynamic for ww1 game. And 7dtd is too much focused on exploring and looting that on base defense and gathering resources - mining , cutting trees, crafting advance stuff. 

And my problem with horror aspect- older 7dtd were creeper and had good horror vibes - now 7dtd looks like mad max or z nation or even like rage 2 sometimes. I don't mean add for example ghosts etc now ( this is rly too late but if it added in dunno A11 it would be so good). But more corpses everywhere writing on walls , pit with burned corpses , hanging bodies , less guns and ammo , more "world telling" ( this poi with safehouse with  corpses looks so good) POIs, change colours into more darker, add random screems and gunshots could help a lot

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19 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Well one time i had 25 day + 120 min as day and we coudn't find any beaker for so long time.

 

sir  you said one time  and if that is for all your gameplay then you have bad luck or not putting points in lucky looter just saying.

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18 minutes ago, NBornkilla said:

sir  you said one time  and if that is for all your gameplay then you have bad luck or not putting points in lucky looter just saying.

Well one time because i good remember this situation - i was playing with friend  a lot in 7dtd at this time. well usually on next alpha i found beaker  after long time but  still beaker is too much rare

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3 hours ago, NBornkilla said:

you have bad luck or not putting points in lucky looter just saying.

 

Lucky Looter, goggles, biome modifiers, and POI modifiers have nothing to do with finding beakers. At least not as of right now. The odds for beakers are not tied to lootstage. Is the balance right? Certainly many forum posters don't think so. The XML shows that TFP made a couple of conscious decisions to limit access to beakers so they were trying to address something. They've already said they are working on rebalancing all loot, so for now we need to deal with the quirks of this alpha release.

 

If you want more beakers, there is a modlet which will nudge the probabilities a bit.

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I have a nagging feeling that RNG is tied to the save name (as spawn location appears to be). In a recent game I've had 22 acid, 3 anvils, 2 bellows and 1 crucible drop in the first 7 days. Beakers be damned. In another, none of the other items, just 3 beakers.

 

If RNG does use a seed, it should probably be randomly generated each time the game loads (md5 timestamp?), not tied to a fixed string.

 

😕

 

Of course, this is purely speculative and only derived through personal observation...

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i liked the RNG, if anything i felt a bit cheated when i earned the chem bench then got offered it as a mission reward haha.  No my only issue is im not really strong enough to go to winter and harder biomes.  but im half way to fully unlocked and have tier 5 everything with some tier 6.  so i would have to say, by the time im ready to go to winter and or other biomes.. why shouuld i drive all the way accross the map to get a small loot bonus bump.     What happens "next" does need a little thought and planning for the future.   other than the bugs and never being able to get through a full 7 dies to day play through without some sort of game breaking bug killing the server forcing a delete and restart, i have been happy with the new pois and graphics updates. 

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1 hour ago, BarryTGash said:

If RNG does use a seed, it should probably be randomly generated each time the game loads (md5 timestamp?), not tied to a fixed string.

 

I'm unsure how doing this would change much except in very specific and unusual circumstances. Randomly randomizing the randomizer should be nearly indistinguishable from a high-level fixed seed. Assume that the RNG seed is the same as the RWG seed. That is, when you generate a map, the RNG seed is set and every playthrough using that map will have the same starting RNG seed. And so let's say that BarrysWorld RWG seed always produces these first five RNG numbers:

 

0.27, 0.97, 0.12, 0.84, 0.77

 

It may be that in your first playthrough on BarrysWorld, those numbers don't produce results you like. You search two vehicles, a trash pile, a bookcase, and a medicine cabinet in that order and you get junk in your opinion. Extend from five RNG numbers to 1,000 or 10,000 and the idea is the same. Maybe it doesn't work out and you think the RNG is bad.

 

But if you start a 2nd playthrough on BarrysWorld, same RNG seed, and make even a miniscule deviation in how you "used" those 5, or 1,000, or 10,000 RNG numbers, the experience would be completely different. Maybe you search the trash pile first and then the medicine cabinet. Well now 0.27 is used for the trash loot and 0.97 is used for the medicine cabinet (instead of two vehicles as in the 1st playthrough). Maybe the loot won't be much better, just different. And just as random even though the seed is identical.

 

There may be an instinct to treat RNG seed like we do RWG seeds. "Ooh, this seed has a nice city and 7 traders" becomes "Ooh this seed produces lots of beakers!", but the RNG doesn't work that way. The seed just determines the pseudo-random stack of numbers the game can use; they are used at run-time based on the actions of the player(s) in the game. Change the actions, change the results.

 

Edit to add: there's evidence that the game might use different RNG seeds for different things, too. POIs with random "helper" blocks (maybe it's a searchable cabinet, maybe it's an open/empty one) seem to get randomized at playthrough creation, if not RWG creation, and don't rely on run-time RNG checks like it used to in A19. That is, a quest location doesn't sprout new searchable cars or cabinets when you reset it like it used to. For random loot generation (which occurs when you search the container), it wouldn't matter. It'll appear random and be different between different playthroughs.

Edited by Boidster (see edit history)
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20 minutes ago, Boidster said:

But if you start a 2nd playthrough on BarrysWorld, same RNG seed, and make even a miniscule deviation in how you "used" those 5, or 1,000, or 10,000 RNG numbers, the experience would be completely different.

I probably shouldn't say anything, since I cba finding the discussion; but from A19, I remember someone complaining that they were unable to save-scum their loot containers. As in they were trying to "copy save" - "loot things" - "overwrite save with the copy" - "loot things in different order"; and they said any type of container would always produce the same results regardless of loot order. It's not a thing I care about, so I never looked into it further than that, but .. there could theoretically be a specific RNG for each loot container type, or whatever. At least the claim was that a small deviation wasn't sufficient to produce different loot.

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31 minutes ago, Boidster said:

There may be an instinct to treat RNG seed like we do RWG seeds

 

I think you're right. It's probably just superstition: have I jinxed myself? It's like eventually buying an item because you've not found one, only to loot one soon after buying it - it stands out and is memorable because of the apparent importance at that time (although my suspicious mind can't help but think TFP has literally coded such a scenario to troll us :D).

Edited by BarryTGash (see edit history)
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Late to the party here, but I love the RNG items.  Just being able to level a craft everything makes the game too linear and kills replay-ability to me.  I love the A20 update.  Brought me back into the game after stopping with A17.  GGs on this update.

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16 minutes ago, theFlu said:

I probably shouldn't say anything, since I cba finding the discussion; but from A19, I remember someone complaining that they were unable to save-scum their loot containers. As in they were trying to "copy save" - "loot things" - "overwrite save with the copy" - "loot things in different order"; and they said any type of container would always produce the same results regardless of loot order. It's not a thing I care about, so I never looked into it further than that, but .. there could theoretically be a specific RNG for each loot container type, or whatever. At least the claim was that a small deviation wasn't sufficient to produce different loot.

 

That's a good point, I hadn't thought about a design goal to prevent save-scumming and how that would affect RNG implementation. It seems unlikely to me (though I am going to go test it right now) that TFP have somehow crafted an RNG mechanism where every container in a worldsave has its seed determined and locked before the player first opens it. Maybe when chunks are loaded the first time, not when the save is first created? I imagine all of the thousands of lootable containers the player passes by just running around town. All of them are locked down to prevent save-scumming?

 

Alright I'm off to do a better test. I briefly looked into this a couple of weeks back, but only using trash piles which all draw from the same lootgroup and could sort of appear to be save-scum proof. Time to try a mix of trash, vehicles, etc.

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