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A20 - Leveling is now pointless


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30 minutes ago, Boidster said:

All of them are locked down to prevent save-scumming?

If it's a thing, it's not a countermeasure to save-scumming; it wouldn't really effect SP, and you can't pull it off on a server obviously.

 

If anything; think of testing in a random world. It's so much simpler for reproducing anything if you can actually recreate the exact scenario. Since randomness is always* predetermined anyway, all you have to do is Not 'confuse' the seeding and you have a deterministic random. If you absolutely want, you can drop in a few reseeds once you get to beta, but there isn't really even any need. You can literally only see it by breaking the game.

 

*to varying degrees of pedantic alwaysness.

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30 minutes ago, theFlu said:

Since randomness is always* predetermined anyway

 

The universe knew you were going to type that.

 

Anywho, I'm back from testing. It seems to work consistently with the idea of a single RNG seed for looting, which is tied to the game save. You can save-scum if you are so inclined.

 

I created "Save 1a" and then saved off copies of it before starting. So 1b, 1c, and 1d would be "save-scumming" opportunities.

 

Container Save 1a

Save 1b

Same Containers

Same Order

Save 1c

Same Containers

Different Order

Save 1d

Different Containers

But Same Cont. Type

Save 2

New Game

Same Map

Bird Nest 6 feathers Same (5) 1 feather, 1 egg Same 8 feathers
Trash Pile 32 sand Same (1) 1 pipe, 38 clay Same 39 clay
Sedan

1 can,

1 yucca seed

Same

(4) 111 gas, bone,

2 lockpick

Same 2 weights
Sedan 1 pipe Same (2) 1 rotten meat Same

glue

20 gunpowder

Garbage 1 bone, 15 scrap Same (3) 1 jar Same 2 nails, jar

 

This seems to back up my comment before that you can't really have a "bad RNG seed" like we might have bad or good RWG seeds. If you change the order of searching in the tiniest way, you get different loot. I mean, Save 1c is clearly better than Save 1a. Save-scum is successful!

 

 

Edited by Boidster (see edit history)
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9 minutes ago, Boidster said:

 

The universe knew you were going to type that.

 

Anywho, I'm back from testing. It seems to work consistently with the idea of a single RNG seed for looting, which is tied to the game save. You can save-scum if you are so inclined.

 

I created "Save 1a" and then saved off copies of it before starting. So 1b, 1c, and 1d would be "save-scumming" opportunities.

 

Container Save 1a

Save 1b

Same Containers

Same Order

Save 1c

Same Containers

Different Order

Save 1d

Different Containers

But Same Cont. Type

Save 2

New Game

Same Map

Bird Nest 6 feathers Same (5) 1 feather, 1 egg Same 8 feathers
Trash Pile 32 sand Same (1) 1 pipe, 38 clay Same 39 clay
Sedan

1 can,

1 yucca seed

Same

(4) 111 gas, bone,

2 lockpick

Same 2 weights
Sedan 1 pipe Same (2) 1 rotten meat Same

glue

20 gunpowder

Garbage 1 bone, 15 scrap Same (3) 1 jar Same 2 nails, jar

 

This seems to back up my comment before that you can't really have a "bad RNG seed" like we might have bad or good RWG seeds. If you change the order of searching in the tiniest way, you get different loot. I mean, Save 1c is clearly better than Save 1a. Save-scum is successful!

 

 

So the 1d is interesting if I understand you. You looted a different bird nest/trash pile/pair of sedans/garbage and got the same loot as 1a?

 

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10 minutes ago, Krougal said:

You looted a different bird nest/trash pile/pair of sedans/garbage and got the same loot as 1a?

 

Yessir. That lines up with my comments earlier about the worldsave seed giving 0.27, 0.93, 0.17, 0.88, 0.73 (or whatever) for the first five RNG rolls. As long as I am looting exactly the same lootgroups in exactly the same order, it doesn't matter where on the map they are.

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59 minutes ago, Boidster said:

If you change the order of searching in the tiniest way, you get different loot.

Well, that's interesting for the very least; it seems it may have changed from the past - assuming I remember that A19 convo correctly. Good test anyway :)

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On 1/6/2022 at 3:13 PM, Urban Blackbear said:

 

I'm 43. My first gaming experience was an Atari 2600 and my first console that I owned was an NES that I mowed lawns all summer for because we were poor and that was the only way I was ever seeing one. They were the same price as consoles are today. In 1987.

Pffft, kids, 67 year old gamer here, hell Pong was high tech when I was a twenty something.

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18 hours ago, Boidster said:

 

Lucky Looter, goggles, biome modifiers, and POI modifiers have nothing to do with finding beakers. At least not as of right now. The odds for beakers are not tied to lootstage. Is the balance right? Certainly many forum posters don't think so. The XML shows that TFP made a couple of conscious decisions to limit access to beakers so they were trying to address something. They've already said they are working on rebalancing all loot, so for now we need to deal with the quirks of this alpha release.

 

If you want more beakers, there is a modlet which will nudge the probabilities a bit.

funny i always put lucky looter and behold i start finding stuff yes including beaker lol. 

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5 hours ago, NBornkilla said:

funny i always put lucky looter and behold i start finding stuff yes including beaker lol.

 

Correlation is not causation lol. It is not a big mystery - the probabilities are all right there for us to read. Lucky Looter is great. It just has nothing to do with beakers.

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On 1/5/2022 at 5:18 PM, Pernicious said:

 

I scrolled past this, as I don't usually like to get too much into mud slinging. But it annoyed me, so I'm coming back to it before it distracts me all day.

 

I have been in Cybersecurity 25 years now. First job was virus analysis - code reverse engineering. I am currently an enterprise security architect, so a few years removed from getting my hands dirty, but 6 years of my career was in what is now known as Appsec with a bit of overlap into DevSecOps.

 

I came here to say that Banking and Finance code is pretty much the simplest production code there is out there, short of OT/ICS/SCADA. It's almost universally true the more critical a system is, the simpler the code to run it is. There is more code in a basic, non self driving car, than there is in an F35 which can deliver a precision guided bomb. The code that runs nuclear reactors is only a few megabytes large typically. And banking code? They keep it as simple as possible because they want the user to be so constrained. You can buy or sell a stock. You don't animate that stock sale, and change the price based on the trader's experience.

 

In other words, you're comparing your girlfriend doing quality control on an army land rover - that uses gravity fed pumps, a detuned diesel so that it can run on dirty cooking oil in a pinch and no electronics so it can operate after a EMP blast, against a Tesla, which is designed as an experimental car, is self driving, runs an entertainment system... and claiming she's doing a better job of keeping the car running. Of course she is. But is that the kind of car you want to be driving for your daily commute?

I think you got everything i said wrong… first of all, I never said she’s a QA.. she’s a senior software product manager, and that’s irrelevant anyways cause my point was about testing and making sure these simple bugs don’t occur before release or to make sure they release an urgent patch to fix it since it’s a major bug when your vehicles or turrets disappear..

the game doesn’t have 1 million ways to travel so either you run or you use that vehicle you put so much into … or reach lvl 10 INT to get robotic turrets to max lvl and not get to use it cause second you place it it ends up underground!

 

the alpha excuse is getting too old imo after 8years… second they mess things up they say we still in alpha that’s just unprofessional and careless!

 

when you keep playing and twitching the same  game for years trust me you mess things up cause you getting bored so you don’t pay attention as much.. only thing that keeps you going in life and projects is new contents , new projects, new vision, new features!

 

time they put to disappear your car they should put time to freaking ADD more features, more skillls, more fun wpns rather that some dumb pipe wpn they so proud of! 
 

work on the bandits to get faster release!

 

work on different maps, different areas like an AIRPORT! Why these cities don’t have any airports?!?

 

that’s how you get more players and hype the game out there …

 

No matter how many ways you cook chicken, at the end of the day it’s chicken my friend…

 

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On 1/7/2022 at 6:41 PM, Boidster said:

 

The universe knew you were going to type that.

 

Anywho, I'm back from testing. It seems to work consistently with the idea of a single RNG seed for looting, which is tied to the game save. You can save-scum if you are so inclined.

 

I created "Save 1a" and then saved off copies of it before starting. So 1b, 1c, and 1d would be "save-scumming" opportunities.

 

Container Save 1a

Save 1b

Same Containers

Same Order

Save 1c

Same Containers

Different Order

Save 1d

Different Containers

But Same Cont. Type

Save 2

New Game

Same Map

Bird Nest 6 feathers Same (5) 1 feather, 1 egg Same 8 feathers
Trash Pile 32 sand Same (1) 1 pipe, 38 clay Same 39 clay
Sedan

1 can,

1 yucca seed

Same

(4) 111 gas, bone,

2 lockpick

Same 2 weights
Sedan 1 pipe Same (2) 1 rotten meat Same

glue

20 gunpowder

Garbage 1 bone, 15 scrap Same (3) 1 jar Same 2 nails, jar

 

This seems to back up my comment before that you can't really have a "bad RNG seed" like we might have bad or good RWG seeds. If you change the order of searching in the tiniest way, you get different loot. I mean, Save 1c is clearly better than Save 1a. Save-scum is successful!

 

 

So essentially we should use algorithms to find what's going to come next if we can't find a crucible or a beaker by day 40. Since it's clearly predetermined

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38 minutes ago, saoron666 said:

I think you got everything i said wrong… first of all, I never said she’s a QA.. she’s a senior software product manager, and that’s irrelevant anyways cause my point was about testing and making sure these simple bugs don’t occur before release or to make sure they release an urgent patch to fix it since it’s a major bug when your vehicles or turrets disappear..

the game doesn’t have 1 million ways to travel so either you run or you use that vehicle you put so much into

<snip>

No matter how many ways you cook chicken, at the end of the day it’s chicken my friend…

 

 

Err. What do you think QA is if it's not testing and making sure simple bugs don't occur?

 

I think you've missed my point. Your GF is cooking chicken. TFP is cooking 10 course banquet for tens of thousands of people, and allowing people to change their orders. So some people are going to get overcooked meals, some people will order the fish and get chicken. The larger the scale, the more likely mistakes will be made.

 

You may only have one way to travel, but when you travel, are you going to bump into things? If you bump into something, which object moves? Which entity is hurt? Is your next step higher or lower than your current one? Should you fall? And if you fall, how far? How fast are you traveling? Is your armor slowing you down? Encumbrance? Perks? Buffs? If you jump, can you detect the level where you land? Should you bounce off something that's in between you and where you land? What should the tree look like when your position changes?  I could keep going - and that's just for movement.

 

Where as for a bank transfer - check bank balance, check the source and destination bank accounts are valid, write to database, write to journal file for accountability and atomicity. Done.  There might be other systems which do auditing like checking if the transfer is going to a proscribed organisation, but that might or might not be your GF's product anyway.

 

I have access to a bug reporting repository. Over 20,000 bug reports - these aren't bug reports by end users. These are filtered through the technical assistance centre who deduplicate them. I would estimate about 1/4  of the bugs were closed out as "could not replicate". How do you think QA - or software product managers - can test for bugs which can't be replicated even after an end user thinks they have documented it with the assistance of a support engineer?

 

 

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8 hours ago, Pernicious said:

 

Err. What do you think QA is if it's not testing and making sure simple bugs don't occur?

 

I think you've missed my point. Your GF is cooking chicken. TFP is cooking 10 course banquet for tens of thousands of people, and allowing people to change their orders. So some people are going to get overcooked meals, some people will order the fish and get chicken. The larger the scale, the more likely mistakes will be made.

 

You may only have one way to travel, but when you travel, are you going to bump into things? If you bump into something, which object moves? Which entity is hurt? Is your next step higher or lower than your current one? Should you fall? And if you fall, how far? How fast are you traveling? Is your armor slowing you down? Encumbrance? Perks? Buffs? If you jump, can you detect the level where you land? Should you bounce off something that's in between you and where you land? What should the tree look like when your position changes?  I could keep going - and that's just for movement.

 

Where as for a bank transfer - check bank balance, check the source and destination bank accounts are valid, write to database, write to journal file for accountability and atomicity. Done.  There might be other systems which do auditing like checking if the transfer is going to a proscribed organisation, but that might or might not be your GF's product anyway.

 

I have access to a bug reporting repository. Over 20,000 bug reports - these aren't bug reports by end users. These are filtered through the technical assistance centre who deduplicate them. I would estimate about 1/4  of the bugs were closed out as "could not replicate". How do you think QA - or software product managers - can test for bugs which can't be replicated even after an end user thinks they have documented it with the assistance of a support engineer?

 

 

I think you are more focused about my gf’s job than other things here… and I’m not sure what you trying to defend exactly ? The complexity of how my vehicle bounces off your head or my vehicle disappearing before it does?!

 

75% of your comments are irrelevant to what’s in front of us..

5 hours ago, BarryTGash said:

 

Can't ignore... it... any longer!

 

It's tweaking, not twitching.

 

spacer.png

Was pretty late when I wrote that haha 😜 

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1 hour ago, saoron666 said:

I think you are more focused about my gf’s job than other things here… and I’m not sure what you trying to defend exactly ? The complexity of how my vehicle bounces off your head or my vehicle disappearing before it does?!

 

75% of your comments are irrelevant to what’s in front of us..

Was pretty late when I wrote that haha 😜 

 

What might be relevant is that you are seeing a bug that only some users are seeing. I played A20 for close to 100 hours now and had not one vehicle vanish into the ground. Which means that the developer might not have known about this simple bug

 

Maybe that bug only occurs because of some left over configuration and data from previous versions that is now interfering with the correct functioning of the game. Another reason they might not know about this bug (although I think the vanishing into the ground bug may already be confirmed as a real bug in the game). Side question: Did you follow the advice from the big blue banner above here in the forum?

 

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)
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11 hours ago, saoron666 said:

I think you got everything i said wrong… first of all, I never said she’s a QA.. she’s a senior software product manager, and that’s irrelevant anyways cause my point was about testing and making sure these simple bugs don’t occur before release or to make sure they release an urgent patch to fix it since it’s a major bug when your vehicles or turrets disappear..

the game doesn’t have 1 million ways to travel so either you run or you use that vehicle you put so much into … or reach lvl 10 INT to get robotic turrets to max lvl and not get to use it cause second you place it it ends up underground!

 

the alpha excuse is getting too old imo after 8years… second they mess things up they say we still in alpha that’s just unprofessional and careless!

 

I'm perfectly fine with them taking years in alpha. Getting a new version every year with new features, for free. That is a good deal even with all the bugs. And a lot of other forum users here have said the same and declared that 7D2D please be in EA as long as possible.

 

Your mileage may vary, so simply wait for the game to release. It was your own decision to be a game tester for this game. 

 

11 hours ago, saoron666 said:

 

when you keep playing and twitching the same  game for years trust me you mess things up cause you getting bored so you don’t pay attention as much.. only thing that keeps you going in life and projects is new contents , new projects, new vision, new features!

 

time they put to disappear your car they should put time to freaking ADD more features, more skillls, more fun wpns rather that some dumb pipe wpn they so proud of! 

 

The new features are exactly the reason why new bugs appear that then plague users like you that never should play EA and much less an experimental version inside EA !

 

11 hours ago, saoron666 said:

work on the bandits to get faster release!

 

work on different maps, different areas like an AIRPORT! Why these cities don’t have any airports?!?

 

that’s how you get more players and hype the game out there …

 

That is just your personal wish list. Sorry, just browse the Pimp Dreams forum section, everyone has a different list of what he wants. TFP can not implement features that everyone wants, they can only implement features that some part of the players says "Yay" and the rest say "Huh, didn't want this at all".

 

Airport? I don't mind one, but as a feature there are hundred other things on my list than some big flat POI with a huge empty flat field in front

 

11 hours ago, saoron666 said:

 

No matter how many ways you cook chicken, at the end of the day it’s chicken my friend…

 

 

No matter how many ways you cook chicken, some customer will complain about it. 😁

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)
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8 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

I'm perfectly fine with them taking years in alpha. Getting a new version every year with new features, for free. That is a good deal even with all the bugs. And a lot of other forum users here have said the same and declared that 7D2D please be in EA as long as possible.

 

Your mileage may vary, so simply wait for the game to release. It was your own decision to be a game tester for this game. 

 

 

The new features are exactly the reason why new bugs appear that then plague users like you that never should play EA and much less an experimental version inside EA !

 

 

That is just your personal wish list. Sorry, just browse the Pimp Dreams forum section, everyone has a different list of what he wants. TFP can not implement features that everyone wants, they can only implement features that some part of the players says "Yay" and the rest say "Huh, didn't want this at all".

 

Airport? I don't mind one, but as a feature there are hundred other things on my list than some big flat POI with a huge empty flat field in front

 

 

No matter how many ways you cook chicken, some customer will complain about it. 😁

 

 

it is because of us "early birds" that also helped out with this game.. supporting it while it was still just starting off... easy to say now "you should've waited"  imagine if everyone would have just waited for the big release! i dont think today they would have as much staff as they did 8 years ago.. and that is one big reason they release them so early and so primitive .. FUNDS..so when others like roland say these new features and game today is for new newcomers, it kind a selfish..since we were the real supporters out there and deserve much more than newbies. 

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40 minutes ago, saoron666 said:

 

it is because of us "early birds" that also helped out with this game.. supporting it while it was still just starting off... easy to say now "you should've waited"  imagine if everyone would have just waited for the big release! i dont think today they would have as much staff as they did 8 years ago.. and that is one big reason they release them so early and so primitive .. FUNDS..so when others like roland say these new features and game today is for new newcomers, it kind a selfish..since we were the real supporters out there and deserve much more than newbies. 

 

First of all EA is clearly a way of funding development, no question about it. It means the developer is free from publisher influence which often helps the players as well (unless he wants micropayment as part of the experience) and it means successful games get more money which usually adds to their scope (7D2D got so big and feature-rich because of that). Now I am happy that 7D2D got so big and didn't release as a polished version of Alpha12. As you want more features I think you will agree here.

 

I don't need to imagine everyone to wait for the release because I know people are very different. Lots of people here in the forum are quite happy with EA, we accept the bugs as a neccessary part of the whole EA candyland. But if someone perceives it as a bug hell because he loses a vehicle (and instead of going to general support makes a doomsday report) then he clearly isn't cut out for that EA thingy.

 

I experienced recurring vehicle bugs in A15 when I began playing 7D2D, I know what you are speaking about. And I simply waited for the bug fix.

 

We deserve more? Sure, its even listed in our "contract", just read it on the steam page. We get to experience development from the inside, play unfinished versions a long time before any release-buyer-noob gets the game in his dirty fingers 😁

 

 

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12 hours ago, Darklegend222 said:

So essentially we should use algorithms to find what's going to come next if we can't find a crucible or a beaker by day 40. Since it's clearly predetermined

 

Broadly speaking, yes! "Random" numbers in programming are almost always pseudo-random, based on a seed value. If you know the seed value, you can determine the sequence of "random" numbers that will result. In nearly all applications where randomness is required, this is sufficient. If you:

  1. Know the seed
  2. Know the exact algorithm used to produce 'random' numbers
  3. Know the probabilities for all potential loot items in all containers you want to search

Then you could deterministically work your way through a game looting exactly the right containers at exactly the right time to get the "best" loot for each search.

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3 hours ago, meganoth said:

We deserve more? Sure, its even listed in our "contract", just read it on the steam page. We get to experience development from the inside, play unfinished versions a long time before any release-buyer-noob gets the game in his dirty fingers 😁

 

 

 

but when A20 came out, steamers got to play it on a long weekend when half of them were offline and us the supporters got to watch a youtube video...lol

4 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

What might be relevant is that you are seeing a bug that only some users are seeing. I played A20 for close to 100 hours now and had not one vehicle vanish into the ground. Which means that the developer might not have known about this simple bug

 

Maybe that bug only occurs because of some left over configuration and data from previous versions that is now interfering with the correct functioning of the game. Another reason they might not know about this bug (although I think the vanishing into the ground bug may already be confirmed as a real bug in the game). Side question: Did you follow the advice from the big blue banner above here in the forum?

 

 

this bug didn't only happen to me, my gf pc was brand new and fresh install and she got the bug before me.

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1 hour ago, saoron666 said:

 

but when A20 came out, steamers got to play it on a long weekend when half of them were offline and us the supporters got to watch a youtube video...lol

 

That was in their contract. The streamers got to play it for promotion. If you ever own a games company you too will try to get whatever news outlet is there reporting about games to report about YOUR game.

Now show me where in our contract it says we get to play the newest version before anyone else? You won't because testers could play it already months before us. Are you envious of testers too?

 

1 hour ago, saoron666 said:

this bug didn't only happen to me, my gf pc was brand new and fresh install and she got the bug before me.

 

Ok. But you played together on a server (which might be either of your PC or a rented server) and the server could have had the problem. But I'm just showing you there are many possibilities and finding the cause of a bug isn't simple. I think Faatal already said something about looking for the bug which means they probably could reproduce it already which means it actually is a bug.

 

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5 hours ago, Boidster said:

 

Broadly speaking, yes! "Random" numbers in programming are almost always pseudo-random, based on a seed value. If you know the seed value, you can determine the sequence of "random" numbers that will result. In nearly all applications where randomness is required, this is sufficient. If you:

  1. Know the seed
  2. Know the exact algorithm used to produce 'random' numbers
  3. Know the probabilities for all potential loot items in all containers you want to search

Then you could deterministically work your way through a game looting exactly the right containers at exactly the right time to get the "best" loot for each search.

I wouldn't know how to make an algorithm, but I'm sure someone of your expertise could.

 

It'd be rather interesting to see what seed values produce the best type of loot per trader, each restock. I know that it might require generating nearly 100 worlds to get anything useful, and even then it may not produce enough information.

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1 minute ago, Darklegend222 said:

It'd be rather interesting to see what seed values produce the best type of loot per trader, each restock. I know that it might require generating nearly 100 worlds to get anything useful, and even then it may not produce enough information.

 

I wrote a longer, very boring nerd response, but the gist is that it's unlikely that such a test would show anything helpful, much like the loot container testing didn't really show anything about "good" or "bad" RNG seeds. It would surprise me quite a bit if TFP coded the game - loot, traders, spawning, any of it - so that world seed was anything more than academically related to RNG experience. Could you visit Jen, then Rekt, then Joel in world A and then world B and compare results? Sure. But you'd have to visit them in exactly that same order - probably with zero other actions in between - if you wanted to duplicate the results in a real game.

 

So the message is, there is no such thing as a bad RNG seed. Every world is plenty "random enough" to completely hide the "pseudo" part that we computer nerds add to it with our algorithms.

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8 hours ago, saoron666 said:

I think you are more focused about my gf’s job than other things here… and I’m not sure what you trying to defend exactly ? The complexity of how my vehicle bounces off your head or my vehicle disappearing before it does?!

 

 

 

I think the point is, you have no idea what you are talking about, and tried to use your girlfiend's job to lend some credibility to your statements. Even your last statement there tells me (and most programmers) how naive you are - those two are not separate issues, and there is no either/or. The more complicated the code around how a vehicle behaves, the more likely an error will creep in that makes it behave in a way that it should not. Who knows if vehicles disappearing or teleporting is something as simple as the code for trying to determine what it hits or what altitude it should level on, has a rounding error, and it falls through the earth?

 

But let's move on, and instead use something a bit more comparable and less personal. Cyberpunk 2077. That game was started one year earlier than 7D2D, and was developed by a very large (multi billion dollar) company with over 1000 employees, and released late 2020. Go to their forums and have a look at how many bugs and complaints of instability there were, and how many people even now, a year and 3 or 4 months later, are still complaining. Hell, case in point, there are vehicle bugs in CP2077 as well:

 

Cyberpunk 2077: a bug turns car racing into a Boldi and De Sica movie - 🕹️  Geekinco

 

(I'd love to say that I chose that as a bit of a middle finger to you, but truth be told, that was the first image I got when I googled "CP2077 vehicle bug". )

 

This bug is present in a flat, polygon based, immutable world (i.e, you can't dig a hole in the road, and expect the car to respond to that as an excuse for the level of the car or passenger being misaligned. You can in 7d2d.)

 

Anyway, I started responding to you by saying that I usually don't get into mud slinging matches... This is exactly the reason why, so I should have taken my own advice. I'm gonna let this go, unless you have genuine questions I can contribute to, and not just complaints and defensiveness.

 

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35 minutes ago, Pernicious said:

Anyway, I started responding to you by saying that I usually don't get into mud slinging matches... This is exactly the reason why

 

It's cuz you don't have a gf amirite? ;) 

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