Farming not very viable even with living off the land 3.

[Darklegend222]

9 minutes ago, IgnyteZero said:

What I, and others, are saying is not that it's broken or necessarily too hard (well some might maybe, I don't know), it's the futility of doing it before you hit LotL 3. All your arguments are invalid because, as I've pointed out before, the game is not a farming simulator and don't intend to be. There are other endeavours, such as taking part of all the other content in the game. Exploring, killing Z's, gathering resources, building bases and defences. Focusing in exploring and getting 10 seeds of every important play type. As anything below LotL 3 gives an average negative output on anything less than 5 seeds, farming isn't viable at all in the early game if you're just playing maybe 1-3 players co-op. There just isn't the time to focus on it or bother with it, especially since meat is so much faster to get in large numbers without bothering about RNG of POIs.

I don't care to reinforce all other arguments once more. But I hope this clarifies my stance, as you seem a bit confused with where I'm coming from.  It's not about making it easier, it's about making all skill points matter, and to make it scale better towards player numbers and toward other related skills. That's what's been argued about. Noones said that each skill point must mean super rewards

Also considering TFP according to Roland is already looking into balancing it better, why defend it?

I love how you stated this isn't a farming simulator, as you continue to explain how much you want farming to be better "implemented". All the skill points do matter, in fact. They matter so much to the point that it you don't get tier 1 and 2 of LotL, you won't get 3 which unlocks fully sustainable farming.

 

You don't want to bother with POI randomness you say? Then play Navezgane where you can get to Carl's corn fields and be fed! Might as well go to bob's boars too for that sweet Grace meat and stop playing on an RWG world then complaining about it being "random". In Navezgane you'll know where everything is, and that'll be problem solved!

 

That's an artificial limitation your putting on yourself of avoiding POIs in RWG that have the crops you need. Did you watch the dev streams or do you know how the cities procedural generate? I can explain if needed. I'm not trying to be arrogant, I'm trying to give you information that I'm not sure you know.

 

As for defending it, it's because we just got a new system and your main argument has been that we can't get a fully viable farm at the start of the game. It wasn't possible in A19 unless in Navezgane or godly luck of a Carl's corn being nearby.

 

Again, your throwing out the POI point I've made entirely away and disregarded it by your POI randomness statement. I'm not trying to be rude, I'm trying to get you to understand that you HAVE that option, but you need to go through the effort of doing it and then account for EVERYTHING to see where farming stands.

 

This isn't a one sided thing, we're all learning here and as the community who gives the devs our opinions, we need to account for everything around the mechanics we want to see changed, and be able to go out of our ways to adapt further than we already have. Then it'll be second nature, just like the hoe farming got removed.

 

If it's not still not the way you like it, I'm sure making a simple modlet that changes the 50% to a value you prefer much more will be better. Especially since we can probably take code from A19.6 of the replant system and implement it here through modlets.

[IgnyteZero]

15 minutes ago, Darklegend222 said:

I love how you stated this isn't a farming simulator, as you continue to explain how much you want farming to be better "implemented". All the skill points do matter, in fact. They matter so much to the point that it you don't get tier 1 and 2 of LotL, you won't get 3 which unlocks fully sustainable farming.

 

You don't want to bother with POI randomness you say? Then play Navezgane where you can get to Carl's corn fields and be fed! Might as well go to bob's boars too for that sweet Grace meat and stop playing on an RWG world then complaining about it being "random". In Navezgane you'll know where everything is, and that'll be problem solved!

 

That's an artificial limitation your putting on yourself of avoiding POIs in RWG that have the crops you need. Did you watch the dev streams or do you know how the cities procedural generate? I can explain if needed. I'm not trying to be arrogant, I'm trying to give you information that I'm not sure you know.

 

As for defending it, it's because we just got a new system and your main argument has been that we can't get a fully viable farm at the start of the game. It wasn't possible in A19 unless in Navezgane or godly luck of a Carl's corn being nearby.

 

Again, your throwing out the POI point I've made entirely away and disregarded it by your POI randomness statement. I'm not trying to be rude, I'm trying to get you to understand that you HAVE that option, but you need to go through the effort of doing it and then account for EVERYTHING to see where farming stands.

 

This isn't a one sided thing, we're all learning here and as the community who gives the devs our opinions, we need to account for everything around the mechanics we want to see changed, and be able to go out of our ways to adapt further than we already have. Then it'll be second nature, just like the hoe farming got removed.

 

If it's not still not the way you like it, I'm sure making a simple modlet that changes the 50% to a value you prefer much more will be better. Especially since we can probably take code from A19.6 of the replant system and implement it here through modlets.

 

You still don't get it. It's not about ME. It's about better general balance for EVERYONE and all playstyles.

And yes, it's not about a one sided thing. That's what I've been saying since the start. Of course all aspects need to be considered. This includes my arguments, that you consistently try to silence instead of considering the implications of.

But I'm done discussing this matter. I've said all that can be said on it at least twice now.

[dragonmaster0283]

So many people keep assuming the worse rolls like you never get a seed back any time.  Its 50/50.  LotL 3 ON AVERAGE gives MORE food back in A20 then it did in A19 since the average is 3.5 yield in A20 vs 3 yield in A19.  And with LotL 3, you will never run a negative even in the worse situations due to getting 6 back which is always 1 seed with an extra.

LotL 1 is pratcially NO point investment to get pretty much infinite sustainability as well since you would have to basically have RNGesus hate you in order to run a negative and its average is close to what A19 was.

 

1 point is all you need if you plan on farming early game to make it worthwhile and profitable.  It didn't make sense and was far to easy in A19 where you could get a farm going and have an infinite food source without even investing any points in relevant perks and make investing in said perks an actual waste since they wern't needed.

Between the seed drops being far more common in A20, the 0 point person can just plant what they find to supplement their food sources that come in other sources of how they decided to build their character. 

[Aldranon]

I find that getting the first level on animal tracker is perfect in getting plenty of food.

 

Just ride your bike in the wilderness until you see a nest. (Its easy to see on a bike just look down at about a 45% angle.

Hop off the bike and squat, then hit "e" on the nest.

Retrieve what's in the nest and go kill the animal if you found something.

 

You can make a lot of bacon and eggs with a lot of grilled meat with very few perk points (2 to be exact!)

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, IgnyteZero said:

What I, and others, are saying is not that it's broken or necessarily too hard (well some might maybe, I don't know), it's the futility of doing it before you hit LotL 3. All your arguments are invalid because, as I've pointed out before, the game is not a farming simulator and don't intend to be. There are other endeavours, such as taking part of all the other content in the game. Exploring, killing Z's, gathering resources, building bases and defences. Focusing in exploring and getting 10 seeds of every important play type. As anything below LotL 3 gives an average negative output on anything less than 5 seeds, farming isn't viable at all in the early game if you're just playing maybe 1-3 players co-op. There just isn't the time to focus on it or bother with it, especially since meat is so much faster to get in large numbers without bothering about RNG of POIs.
 

 

That highlighted sentence is factually provable wrong. Sorry. On average even a single seed has a positive return of 1.5 produce with LotL 1.

 

The only detriment of having only one seed (if you never get another) is that there is a 50% chance that you can't realize the average because the seed is gone after the first season. BUT we all should know by now that more seeds are always available (with super corn being a special case) and it is only time that you potentially lose.

 

[IgnyteZero]

20 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

That highlighted sentence is factually provable wrong. Sorry. On average even a single seed has a positive return of 1.5 produce with LotL 1.

 

The only detriment of having only one seed (if you never get another) is that there is a 50% chance that you can't realize the average because the seed is gone after the first season. BUT we all should know by now that more seeds are always available (with super corn being a special case) and it is only time that you potentially lose.

 

OK, just to get this straight then.

How can one seed ever have a positive return of 1.5 seeds?

You put one seed in the ground, there's 50% chance of a loss. You get 4 produce back on Lotl 1. You need 5 produce to make a new seed. It can impossibly be a return of 1.5, as you are now lacking the seed you need to replant. This is fact. This is actual gameplay. Not theory.

To get the average of 1.5 you need to probably calculate a much higher number of seeds, and then assume that average for 1 seed only. But ONE actual seed, compared to your theoretical seed, will never and cannot produce 1.5 seed on average.

As I've said before, you need more than 5 seeds to start to get a positive output.

That is factual. You are still calculating macro scenarios for micro environments.

You can argue about that how much you want. It doesn't change the fact that we usually start with just one or two seeds for a certain plant type. And tha math for those particular seeds is all that matters at hand. Not how many seeds I might theoretically have had in a theoretical scenario.

 

[theFlu]

7 minutes ago, IgnyteZero said:

But ONE actual seed, compared to your theoretical seed, will never and cannot produce 1.5 seed on average.

You're using the word "average", but it isn't what you mean. One seed will, on average, produce exactly 1.5.

One seed in game will produce "either 4 or 4 plus seed" upon harvest. This isn't an average. This is the full set of results.

What you're trying to say is that one can fail easily with just a couple seeds.

[Roland]

5 hours ago, IgnyteZero said:

Well, I found your post douchebag-ish hence that reply. It had this atmosphere of "You think you know better than the devs"? Maybe that wasn't your intention then, but that is how you came off to me with that post. And that's why I went defensive.

And my point was that second guessing indeed is pointless. Giving feedback ("complaints") or suggestions is another thing entirely though.

But we're going OT, so I'm leaving it at that. You don't need to like me, but I'm here to give honest feedback on my gaming experiences with 7dtd.

Pattern breaker…

 

and what makes you think I don’t like you?  I don’t even know you and I never let first impressions be my guide. 

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, IgnyteZero said:

OK, just to get this straight then.

How can one seed ever have a positive return of 1.5 seeds?

 

You may have missed my quick edit. Although you reply to the edited version where I say the return is 1.5 produce !! Sorry, if I have caused confusion here.

 

Here is the simple math how the average is calculated: You have one seed that gives you two possible results with 50% probability:

A) 4 produce

B) 4 produce plus a seed which is the equivalent of 5 produce (its production cost)

 

So the average is (4 * 0.5) + ((4+5) * 0.5) = 6.5 produce

 

For the **average** it makes no difference whether you look at 1 seed or at 5 or 10 and then divide by 5 or 10.

 

2 hours ago, IgnyteZero said:

You put one seed in the ground, there's 50% chance of a loss. You get 4 produce back on Lotl 1. You need 5 produce to make a new seed. It can impossibly be a return of 1.5, as you are now lacking the seed you need to replant. This is fact. This is actual gameplay. Not theory.

To get the average of 1.5 you need to probably calculate a much higher number of seeds, and then assume that average for 1 seed only. But ONE actual seed, compared to your theoretical seed, will never and cannot produce 1.5 seed on average.

As I've said before, you need more than 5 seeds to start to get a positive output.

That is factual. You are still calculating macro scenarios for micro environments.

You can argue about that how much you want. It doesn't change the fact that we usually start with just one or two seeds for a certain plant type. And tha math for those particular seeds is all that matters at hand. Not how many seeds I might theoretically have had in a theoretical scenario.

 

 

[Morloc]

17 hours ago, Roland said:

TFP seems to go back and forth every other alpha on how heavy-handed they are with hunger. Every time in the past when people complained about maintaining fullness they relaxed things and made it easier (yeah yeah I know...its not challenging its just tedious). I wonder what will happen this time.

 

I've heard they're adopting the Project Zomboid model. 😮

Nutrition enabled. 😲

Hydrocraft installed. 😵

 

-Arch Necromancer Morloc

[Roland]

8 hours ago, IgnyteZero said:

But that's the point, isn't it? If there's no economy in trying to start a farm before you have LotL 3, why even have 3 skill levels for it? Just have one and gate it higher in that case.

 

Progression. Your problem is that the only thing you are interested in is what T3 grants: Self-sustainable farming at a scale that produces stockpiles of crops in order to be able to craft stockpiles of stews. It has to be that kind of farming or nothing and if a perk can't deliver that kind of farming then it shouldn't exist.

 

There is basically two kinds of farming in this game. 

 

Type 1: You plant every seed you obtain and always use the harvest to make food. Sometimes you'll have many crops growing and sometimes fewer but it is simply dependent upon the seeds you have on hand. In this way you will sometimes have food on hand from your garden and sometimes your food will need to come from other sources. In this type of farming it is best to use all your crops for food and not craft seeds. The size of your farm will fluctuate due to random factors like how many seeds you get back after harvest and what you find out in the world. Living off the Land T1 enhances this kind of farming because you get more crops for your efforts. T2 doesn't really do much and then T3 enhances it again and opens up the second type of farming if you want to do that.

 

Type 2: You plant every seed you obtain and use the harvest to craft seeds to at least replenish all the crops from the previous harvest or grow the farm to be bigger and produce more for the next harvest. Your goal is to never fluctuate in farm size but to always maintain its size or grow it larger. You only keep the surplus fruit after crafting the needed seeds for your farm and at some point your farm will reach a scale at which you can always maintain its size and have plenty of crops to build a large stockpile of food. Living of the Land T1 and T2 help with this type of farming but don't guarantee it's success and growth of the farm will be slow or even nonexistent at times. Only T3 all but guarantees the output you need to more easily get to a large scale farm that regenerates itself and produces a large stockpile of food.

 

In A19 we could easily do Type 2 farming from the beginning. Never losing a plant once you had it guaranteed that your farm would always replenish itself even without any perks. The perks simply made growing the size of the farm to the desired scale a faster process. In A20, players who do not perk or only perk into the first tier will need to do Type 1 farming. The second type of farming will be beyond their reach or at least very difficult and require great luck and a lot more seasons of crops to achieve.

 

Madmole has stated clearly that people need to switch their thinking to the first type of farming if they are unwilling to spend the points to get to T3 LOTL. He is opposed to people being able to just easily (unperked even) get to the scale of farming that results in huge stockpiles of food. If you pay the price to be a full farmer then you you can do that and if you don't then its just best to have enough plots to grow the seeds you find and get back from a harvest and keep all the fruit for consumption. If you do that you can survive. That is basic level farming that everyone can do.

 

But what about teams playing together? A little haphazard garden subject to the whims of RNG can't possibly keep five people fed! That is correct if teams continue to assign one person to be their farmer. Farming is now more necessarily a team effort. All five members should be looking for seeds and planting them when they return to base. If the farm gets big then everyone should help replanting so one person isn't feeling that it is to tedious.

 

The meta has changed on farming and while some people may not like the change, it is an intentional change and not an oversight. Madmole repeatedly has told people to just plant the seeds they get and use the fruit that results until/if they take T3 LOTL. The large scale farms of pre A20 are still possible--they just aren't free anymore.

 

People who don't fight against this change will have fun starting out with type 1 farming and then taking a perk and notice that they are doing better at type 1 farming and then taking a perk and now they can make plots more cheaply and then taking a perk and now they can do large scale sulf-sustainable farming. That progression is fun for certain people but not all. I know that there are those who find that kind of journey boring/tedious and would just like to begin with the maximum power from the very start.

[meganoth]

I created a small simulation program. If you have a python Interpreter on your PC you can use it yourself, but below I show the result of running it.

 

It simulates 100 people with LotL 1 each having exactly 1 seed that they try to grow into as big a farm as possible and doing that for 10 seasons. I want to emphasize, this is the case if you find exactly one seed and never again another one.

 

The result:

Spoiler

61  People have  0  Seeds.
1  People have  1  Seeds.
1  People have  2  Seeds.
3  People have  3  Seeds.
2  People have  4  Seeds.
2  People have  5  Seeds.
1  People have  7  Seeds.
6  People have  8  Seeds.
1  People have  11  Seeds.
5  People have  12  Seeds.
1  People have  13  Seeds.
2  People have  14  Seeds.
2  People have  15  Seeds.
1  People have  17  Seeds.
1  People have  18  Seeds.
1  People have  19  Seeds.
1  People have  21  Seeds.
2  People have  22  Seeds.
2  People have  25  Seeds.
1  People have  27  Seeds.
1  People have  31  Seeds.
1  People have  38  Seeds.
1  People have  41  Seeds.
 

 

 

Now if you change the 5th line to read "seed=2" instead of "seed=1" you would simulate 100 people with LotL 1 who found exactly 2 seeds and never another one and tried to grow the farm for 10 seasons:

 

Spoiler

2  People have  0  Seeds.
3  People have  3  Seeds.
1  People have  4  Seeds.
3  People have  5  Seeds.
4  People have  7  Seeds.
2  People have  8  Seeds.
2  People have  9  Seeds.
5  People have  10  Seeds.
4  People have  11  Seeds.
6  People have  12  Seeds.
4  People have  13  Seeds.
2  People have  14  Seeds.
1  People have  15  Seeds.
2  People have  16  Seeds.
4  People have  17  Seeds.
3  People have  18  Seeds.
2  People have  19  Seeds.
3  People have  21  Seeds.
2  People have  22  Seeds.
3  People have  23  Seeds.
3  People have  25  Seeds.
4  People have  26  Seeds.
1  People have  27  Seeds.
1  People have  29  Seeds.
1  People have  30  Seeds.
3  People have  31  Seeds.
3  People have  33  Seeds.
1  People have  34  Seeds.
2  People have  35  Seeds.
2  People have  37  Seeds.
3  People have  38  Seeds.
1  People have  39  Seeds.
2  People have  41  Seeds.
3  People have  43  Seeds.
2  People have  44  Seeds.
1  People have  45  Seeds.
2  People have  47  Seeds.
1  People have  48  Seeds.
 

 

Notice that of those 100 people with just two seeds only 2 are left with nothing and 17 with less than 10 seeds.

 

 

And here is the program if you want to try it out:

 

#!/usr/bin/python3

from random import choice

def tenseasons():
    seed=1
    produce=0
    for n in range(10):
        # produce to seed
        while produce>=5:
            seed+= 1
            produce-=5
        for s in range(seed):
            produce+=4
            if choice([0,1])==0:
                seed-=1
        print ("Season ",n+1,":    ", seed," Seeds, ",produce," Produce.")
    return([seed,produce])




stat= [0]*200 
for tries in range(100):
    x=tenseasons()
    print()
    seeds=x[0]+int(x[1]/5)
    stat[seeds]+=1

for n in range(50):
    if stat[n]>0:
        print(stat[n]," People have ",n," Seeds.")
              

 

[BFT2020]

3 minutes ago, Roland said:

Progression. Your problem is that the only thing you are interested in is what T3 grants: Self-sustainable farming at a scale that produces stockpiles of crops in order to be able to craft stockpiles of stews. It has to be that kind of farming or nothing and if a perk can't deliver that kind of farming then it shouldn't exist.

 

To add onto Roland's wordy but excellent post  😉

 

I don't pick wild veggies until I get the first perk of LotL.  That way I can get 2 per pick (wild plants only give 1 per pick without any perks, player planted gives 2) and increase my yield.

 

Perk level 2 is a stepping stone to Level 3, but I also use it to reduce the costs of crafting the plots.  Of all the perk levels, this one is the weakest and might benefit from a rework (I think meganoth suggested a harvest level between perk 1 and perk 3).

[meganoth]

17 minutes ago, Roland said:

In A19 we could easily do Type 2 farming from the beginning. Never losing a plant once you had it guaranteed that your farm would always replenish itself even without any perks. The perks simply made growing the size of the farm to the desired scale a faster process. In A20, players who do not perk or only perk into the first tier will need to do Type 1 farming. The second type of farming will be beyond their reach or at least very difficult and require great luck and a lot more seasons of crops to achieve.

 

Excellent summary, but I have to disagree with this. While LotL 1 takes more time growing a farm than LotL 3, the reality in the game IS that you regularily find seeds and produce which makes it neither difficult nor lucky to get a big farm. There is a BIG gap between perkless farming and LotL 1.

 

[Morloc]

LotL 2 is important because it opens the way to making seeds for food.

 

 

-Arch Necromancer Morloc

[Orclover]

39 minutes ago, Morloc said:

 

I've heard they're adopting the Project Zomboid model. 😮

Nutrition enabled. 😲

Hydrocraft installed. 😵

 

-Arch Necromancer Morloc

 

7D2D with Project Zomboid rules would both hilarious and horrifying.  Can we try it?

[Morloc]

2 minutes ago, Orclover said:

7D2D with Project Zomboid rules would both hilarious and horrifying.  Can we try it?

 

"I've been bitten by a zombie! What should I do??"

'Well, did you buy they perk that allows you to live for 3 extra days?'

"Wait, what?...isn't there a perk that makes me immune, or drastically lowers the chance that..."

'No. You're going to die. Soonish....unless you have that perk.'

"What good is it if I can live a few extra days..."

'Somtimes just a couple'

"What use is that??"

'You can get your affairs in order. Leave your gear somewhere for the next person to find. You can decide where you want to make...the transition.'

"OMG...ok, what's the recipe for the cure, or what insanely difficult POI do I need to hit for the medicine to fix...."

'There is no cure. Nope. Just use the time to plan your next playthough.'

"Playthrough?? I haven't even made it to winter!"

'That's probably a good thing....you've eaten most of the canned food already'

 

-Arch Necromancer Morloc 

[Roland]

31 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Excellent summary, but I have to disagree with this. While LotL 1 takes more time growing a farm than LotL 3, the reality in the game IS that you regularily find seeds and produce which makes it neither difficult nor lucky to get a big farm. There is a BIG gap between perkless farming and LotL 1.

 

 

Well, there you go. Perhaps the only problem with the A20 farming feature is that they made seeds a bit too plentiful in the world.

[Morloc]

37 minutes ago, meganoth said:

the reality in the game IS that you regularily find seeds and produce which makes it neither difficult nor lucky to get a big farm.

 

Just a small nitpick...playing with 25% loot, I've only found (1) corn and (1) chrysanthemum (useless) seed in six days of play. I opted for 25% loot, so I knew what I was getting into, but just pointing out that A20 does change my game quite a bit.

 

 

-Arch Necromancer Morloc

[outhous]

On 12/9/2021 at 1:38 PM, Gamida said:

I saw mention of eggs in some posts. Do anyone think they might nerf eggs in an upcoming patch? To me, I seem to be finding an abundance of eggs. Meat is more of a problem than eggs.

@Gamida I am just getting the opposite in my game, swimming in meat (get a wolf delivery just about every night & I'm tripping on chickens & rabbits everywhere!!)🤨

[Gamida]

15 minutes ago, outhous said:

@Gamida I am just getting the opposite in my game, swimming in meat (get a wolf delivery just about every night & I'm tripping on chickens & rabbits everywhere!! 🤨

Maybe the server I was on has animals turned down. Haven't seen many of larger animals like wolves and deer. I do see a rabbit now and then but don't bother to chase them as I keep losing them in the grass and use more food chasing than I would get back.

[theFlu]

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

100 people with LotL 1 who found exactly 2 seeds

 

That is surprisingly positive, only two at zero though..? hmm. 100 ppl, 2 seeds => 25% of the group gets zero seeds, they'll craft one from the 8 plants => 12 (50%) ppl without a seed, seed from the 4+3 = 7 plants => 6... ok, seems the last one is pretty resilient as you're only losing "20% of a seed per round." Sounds plausible, if a bit surprising

[meganoth]

58 minutes ago, Morloc said:

 

Just a small nitpick...playing with 25% loot, I've only found (1) corn and (1) chrysanthemum (useless) seed in six days of play. I opted for 25% loot, so I knew what I was getting into, but just pointing out that A20 does change my game quite a bit.

 

 

-Arch Necromancer Morloc

 

Thanks for the numbers. Then the equivalent droprate at 100% loot would be 8 seeds in six days or 4 additional seeds per farming season! Naturally we don't how far your droprate is from the average.

 

 

 

[Zeellott]

After spending 55 game days playing A20  I have to say that farming is indeed a complete waste of time now. Less time wasted just cooking boiled meat. No point in even taking chef past 1 because you wont get the cans of food or the crops needed to make the good food. Oh and Super corn is no longer sustainable AT ALL. That was a very heavy nerf bat. And don't reply with  math algorithms. Play the game in its current state and you will find farming is a big waste of time now

[Roland]

6 minutes ago, Zeellott said:

Play the game in its current state and you will find farming is a big waste of time now

 

I'd have to hear about what your farming goals are and what level of Living Off The Land you have and what you did to attempt a farm and whether you were going for a large actual farm or just growing stuff in a garden that you find. Just stating that you spent 55 hours and its a waste of time isn't good enough. What exactly did you spend those 55 hours doing to try to farm?