A20 Developer Diary Discussions

[Roland]

On 3/20/2021 at 8:33 PM, Guppycur said:

One thing I discovered with Valheim is that if you just play, not min max, the progression just sort of works, without even really trying.  I like that.  There is a um... Special person... on the server that has crates and crates of stuff... That works for him.  I like that.  I chose to work with others, this person was more solo, but both worked.  He was a little faster on boss beating than we were but it wasn't that far off.  Both play styles worked.  I had fun, and presumably he had fun, that's what counted...   I don't have that experience with 7 days.  7 days forces you to a pace. 

 

With 7days I don't get that sandbox feeling.  I *have* to play by their rules, and the progression is always the same.  There are some deviations between skill trees but ultimately it comes down to making lots of bullets and shooting lots of things.  

 

Anyway, I didn't really intend to do a side by side comparison (although 7days of old did have those trees).

 Could you, though? Your vague generalizations that 7 Days is on rails and you must do things in xyz order and that there is a forced pace and progression that is always the same isn't doing it for me-- without specific examples of what you are referencing comparing the two games I just don't see what you are claiming. I could say that Valheim "forces" you into a linear progression because there is no way you can go straight to swamp or plains and be remotely successful until you've done Black Forest at the least. I mean, I suppose on my second full playthrough of the game I could do whatever I wanted since my persistent character would already start the game with all skills progressed and all techs and tools unlocked... But on a first playthrough one could say in a general sweeping way-- Valheim is definitely on rails as far as exploration and progression and the devs force you into xyz-- 

 

Your example of one guy just spending time collecting stuff and filling boxes and going solo and you working with other players and both styles working-- I've played both ways in 7 Days (recently and not just "back in the day"} and they both work. Of course, just like for Valheim, it requires that you just play, not min max, not game the system to rush the progression-- it works.

 

I guess I just don't see what you are talking about in 7 Days as being forced to play a certain way. I certainly don't feel forced. I still play nomad at times, take over existing POI's at times, and build my own base from scratch at times. I still make my own objectives for the day and then carry them out and get distracted by other things that happen. I get that you don't like the streamlining of some of the processes like what they did with ore or removing sticks and fiber and shifting to a point system instead of an LBD system. I know you feel forced to follow the light path in POI's. 

 

But none of that translates to the game in general being on rails and there is only one forced way to play and there is no sandbox feel. There are fewer steps to getting ore that you can use for crafting than there used to be. But that doesn't force you into one style of playing. In fact, everyone is so excited for the biome difficulty progression (just like Valheim has!) and yet....who can argue that that very mechanic isn't going to "force" even more linearity into the game? Sure, you can choose to go to desert or snow or wasteland during the first week but most will play the game in the "right" order just like they do Valheim.

 

So, yeh...some side by side comparison would be appreciated over generalized statements of feelings.

Edited March 22, 2021 by Roland (see edit history)

[Roland]

7 hours ago, Gazz said:

Yes, but that's been planned for a while now. Gamestage variation between different biomes is already possible (A19) with a simple XML mod but that's only part of it.

 

This is interesting. Which xml edit? I did a cursory look in spawning, loot, biome, and progression but couldn't see a value to edit that would affect gamestage one way or another by biome. This could be fun to play around with in A19. Could you point?

[Gazz]

See entityclasses.xml for "wasteland gamestage bonus".

[Roland]

Awesome! Thanks @Gazz

 

Quote

<!-- wasteland gamestage bonus
        <passive_effect name="GameStage" operation="base_add" value="75">
            <requirement name="InBiome" biome="8"/>
        </passive_effect>
        -->

 

So just uncomment it and then duplicate it a few times changing the biome number so it applies to the other biomes and play around with the gamestage base-add value? Definitely going to play around with this. This adds to the player's gamestage so it will affect both enemies and loot, correct? This could give a rough approximation of what is coming without some of the "among other things" you mentioned.

 

so as a first stab at it like....

 

<!-- wasteland gamestage bonus-->
        <passive_effect name="GameStage" operation="base_add" value="100">
            <requirement name="InBiome" biome="8"/>
        </passive_effect>
        <!-- snow gamestage bonus-->
        <passive_effect name="GameStage" operation="base_add" value="80">
            <requirement name="InBiome" biome="1"/>
        <!-- desert gamestage bonus-->
        <passive_effect name="GameStage" operation="base_add" value="60">
            <requirement name="InBiome" biome="5"/>
        </passive_effect>
        <!-- burnt forest gamestage bonus-->
        <passive_effect name="GameStage" operation="base_add" value="40">
            <requirement name="InBiome" biome="9"/>
        </passive_effect>

Edited March 22, 2021 by Roland (see edit history)

[Guppycur]

Well that's the least of the XMLs to edit; you'll also want to edit the groups so that certain zombies only appear in certain biomes, then do the same for loot.  And sleepers.  

 

If you did not consider Valheim a tower defense game that I think you did it wrong. Especially for boss fights, I found building preparation very important. For the weird wandering hoard things, defenses were also important.  Way more so than in 7 days, when you can just clear a poi, make a few adjustments and be okay.  Sure, valheim has its cheese (moats), but that's every game.  Building in 7 days isn't even necessary.  Hell a few players lay down some barb wire for horde nights and just jump back and forth over it killing.  

 

If you want specific comparisons, then let's talk about the hand holding that the skill tree does.  7days guides you throughout.  In order to get this, you must do that first.  In order to do that, you must do these.  Specifically, the skill/perk system.

 

Sure, you *could* ignore that entirely and play without leveling up the very specific paths, but then again you could turn your monitor off and play.

 

"Back in the good old days" when you learned skills from books and increased skill by doing, you weren't tied to a literal skill tree.  It encouraged exploration and planning.  

 

Right now you don't *ever* have to leave a decent sized town.  Ever. 

 

You touched on it with your explanation of valheim... One you have your character you could replay the game with that character, and I bet you'd still have fun.  There would still be a challenge.  A two star firling will still mess your day up. 

 

Do that in 7 days and it'll be a yawn fest. 

As an aside, it's very clear from the changes over the last few alphas that the direction tfp is going is thankfully biome based challenges. They've been establishing the foundation for that system for a while, and it shows.

 

Right now you can add lesser rad zones and give better loot in those zones with some small modding changes.  Seems to me that's their eventual path. 

[JCrook1028]

21 hours ago, morggin said:

mosin nagant is not a revolver it's a russian military rifle

He's thinking of the Nagant M1895 revolver.

[Roland]

8 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

If you did not consider Valheim a tower defense game that I think you did it wrong. Especially for boss fights, I found building preparation very important. For the weird wandering hoard things, defenses were also important.

 

Perhaps I have been doing it wrong. building defenses before summoning a boss is a good idea. I hear campfires work well... I kid...I understand your point about every game having cheese tactics.

 

11 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

Building in 7 days isn't even necessary.  Hell a few players lay down some barb wire for horde nights and just jump back and forth over it killing.  

 

Some people would call this part of

the sandbox element of 7 Days being preserved. You can build a base, fight out in the open, makes some small adjustments to a POI, design a kill corridor...whatever strikes your fancy-- all of those are viable options without the devs designing things so that the only way is that building is necessary.

 

13 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

If you want specific comparisons, then let's talk about the hand holding that the skill tree does.  7days guides you throughout.  In order to get this, you must do that first.  In order to do that, you must do these.  Specifically, the skill/perk system.

 

Sure, you *could* ignore that entirely and play without leveling up the very specific paths, but then again you could turn your monitor off and play.

 

I'm fairly certain that Valheim will eventually have "handholding" as well once they realize the number of people playing with the wiki open... Valheim has the same exact you must do this to do that mechanic- you just prefer the fact that you must sit by a fire for awhile to get the rested perk rather than spending a point for it. You like your chopping skill to go up as you chop trees instead of spending a point for it to go up. That's fine. But don't kid yourself that you aren't being forced to do something in order to get something.

 

20 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

"Back in the good old days" when you learned skills from books and increased skill by doing, you weren't tied to a literal skill tree.  It encouraged exploration and planning.

 

Actually back in the good old days there were no skills or learning by doing. Then there was for a time and then there wasn't learning by doing any longer. LBD has its strengths but also its weaknesses. I like both systems. 7 Days is fun with the point system and Valheim is fun with its LBD.  I think one of the weaknesses of Valheim's LBD is that at least for me, it kills any desire to start a fresh game with a brand new character. But, maybe the game would still be fun with all the skill progression already mostly done as you say.

 

24 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

Right now you don't *ever* have to leave a decent sized town.  Ever. 

 

Do you want to be forced or don't you...?

 

24 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

You touched on it with your explanation of valheim... One you have your character you could replay the game with that character, and I bet you'd still have fun.  There would still be a challenge.  A two star firling will still mess your day up. 

 

Do that in 7 days and it'll be a yawn fest. 

 

Maybe I'll try it in Valheim and see if it is fun or a yawn fest as well. For me, 7 Days to Die is great for starting over and trying new pathways and I think that part of it is that you can just play the game without having to grind in one specific way to get one specific skill increased. Your experience is holistic from playing and then can be spent to increase those skills you want. You can do anything if you are fine with just playing and spending points for those things you want to improve-- instead of trying to only spend points in the most efficient way possible. Just like POI's. You can explore them any way you like or you can limit yourself to the lighted path. Both can be fun but neither is forced.

[Guppycur]

Apologies in advance for not quoting sections, the new forum editor software is abysmal for phones...

 

That's kind of my point, the skill and perk system ruined the open play 7days had. Sandbox is being able to do what you want.  Again, I suppose you could technically not get any skills in 7 days but as I said before you could still technically turn off your monitor; it doesn't make it right.

 

Valheim's skill system was used to enhance the player, not confine him to it. I died so much in Valheim that I never lost skill points because I was always so low... Valheim made it about the gear, and did it in such a way as to encourage playing the game, not playing the skill tree.  But, it also allowed the min maxers to have their fun.  Macro the punch to a tree you can't damage then walk away, come back and you're maxed out in punching.  To each their own, but ultimately it wasn't *necessary* to have the highest skill level, because the game was about the gear not the player. 

 

I want encouragement to do new things, not be forced into them to "get to the next level" to *allow* me to do new things. 

 

If I die a lot (and I do) in 7 days, I'm stuck repeating myself.  When I died a lot in Valheim, I was still able to make progress in the game. 

 

Make sense?

[Roland]

So really it seems to come down to the change in the skill system that soured 7 Days a bit. I don't agree that having an xp point system for purchasing perks you want vs grinding for those perks through repetition is any more or less freeing. I see them as both being confining in their own ways and freeing in their own ways.

 

XP point system lets you do whatever you want in the game-- any activity of your choice-- and you can still progress in the skills and perks you want to progress in. That is very freeing. It is more confining because some combos of skills you might want to do will be more expensive and take longer to do. It also is a more abstracted system and not as immersive-- although as I've stated many times you still CAN play it immersively by making sure to do activities that relate to how you want to spend your points (if that sort of immersion is important to you).

 

LBD lets you easily work on any skills in combination simply by doing the activities required to up those skills and it is neither more or less expensive to do so. You grind what you want. However, you are stuck having to do a lot of that activity--perhaps more than you find to be engaging and fun in order to get it to a high skill. LBD is very immersive when played in a natural manner the way it is intended as a model of real life living.

 

Both systems get screwed up and cheesed by people who care more about efficiency and min/maxing more than anything else.

 

I like both systems. I don't feel confined at all by the perk system in 7 Days but I can understand that others might. I think both systems are valid and good designs and 7 Days could have kept LBD and been a great game and Valheim could go to a point system and remain a great game. Of course, those players who hate one system or the other would not be happy but you can't help what people prefer or dislike.

[meganoth]

I think Guppycur wants a pure skill-free system where only your equipment counts. He seems to like Valheims skill system only because it doesn't seem to matter.

 

 

[beHypE]

I gotta say regarding the argument about how "Valheim's skill system enhances the player instead of confining him"... I STRONGLY disagree. We all went blunt damage early (not even gonna argue about why you should ever play anything else really), and at some point I was like "dude, I want a sword". It was painful; even though it was the next tier compared to my mace, the damage was @%$#poor because just like in 7 days to die, once you're specialized in something, it's really uneffective to switch to something else. I grinded my ass off for hours before I was merely able to deal the same damage with my T+1 sword than I did with the T mace. I wouldn't say 7 days' system is any better, but it ain't worse, just to clarify.

 

That being said, the LBD system in Valheim is a huge asset in my book. It just feels so nice to become steadily better at everything (especially jumping lol). What really makes it great is not only the organic progression but the huge impact dying has on your levels. My character is way higher level than my mates just because I died way less often; if anything, it's good to feel rewarded. 7 days hasn't ever had a decent dying penalty; losing a bit of experience on your current level is ridiculous when you lose 3+ levels of everything in Valheim. And yet, even my noobish girlfriend thinks it's great, because while she definitely rages when she does die, it makes it meaningful when she doesn't for a while (and it's a great motivation not to).

Edited March 23, 2021 by beHypE (see edit history)

[MechanicalLens]

8 hours ago, Roland said:

Actually back in the good old days there were no skills or learning by doing. Then there was for a time and then there wasn't learning by doing any longer. LBD has its strengths but also its weaknesses. I like both systems. 7 Days is fun with the point system and Valheim is fun with its LBD.  I think one of the weaknesses of Valheim's LBD is that at least for me, it kills any desire to start a fresh game with a brand new character. But, maybe the game would still be fun with all the skill progression already mostly done as you say.

 

Perhaps Valheim should implement a feature where the longer you perform x task (tree chopping, ore mining, etc.) the more proficient you become with that skill, and it covers all future characters. Nothing major, just a decent boost to encourage the player to start new worlds without using the same character over and over. (Ex. You've been tree chopping for 30 minutes, so now you receive a 10% attack speed bonus for axes while tree chopping, if work/combat could be separated within the tool, or just make the axe shoddy at chopping down foes.) Otherwise, like yourself, I'll never be starting a fresh character. If anything, my time playing Valheim is over and done with already. I can certainly see myself playing 7D2D for years to come even after it goes gold however.

[Gazz]

1 hour ago, MechanicalLens said:

Perhaps Valheim should implement a feature where the longer you perform x task (tree chopping, ore mining, etc.) the more proficient you become with that skill, and it covers all future characters.

It already has that because you can start the next game with your current character.

You only need to drop your gear if you want to start fresh.

[dahkdm]

From this thread, wow this community is acting toxic. I think the game is great and I'm excited for A20 and all future Alphas. Especially for bandits.

[SnowDog1942]

56 minutes ago, dahkdm said:

From this thread, wow this community is acting toxic. I think the game is great and I'm excited for A20 and all future Alphas. Especially for bandits.

 

Calling people toxic when they are not toxic is slang for.  "I hug trees and can't handle criticism or tough questions"

[MechanicalLens]

1 minute ago, SnowDog1942 said:

 

Calling people toxic when they are not toxic is slang for.  "I hug trees and can't handle criticism or tough questions"

 

None of us are saints either, nor should people expect us to be. It's called being human.

Edited March 23, 2021 by MechanicalLens (see edit history)

[dahkdm]

15 minutes ago, SnowDog1942 said:

 

Calling people toxic when they are not toxic is slang for.  "I hug trees and can't handle criticism or tough questions"

Shown: someone not acting toxic at all.

 

There's a clear line between reasonable and unreasonable criticism, and comments like "you need to optimize A19 before A20" are just silly. There's a general thread of antagonism throughout this whole community and it is lame and alienating.

[MechanicalLens]

8 minutes ago, dahkdm said:

Shown: someone not acting toxic at all.

 

There's a clear line between reasonable and unreasonable criticism, and comments like "you need to optimize A19 before A20" are just silly. There's a general thread of antagonism throughout this whole community and it is lame and alienating.

 

Some of us are whiners, others are skeptics, while others are critics and among us is the odd optimist. Oh wait, I can't say that because that would be generalizing, which is exactly what you are doing. One trait we all share in common, though to varying degrees between each person, is passion for this game. All of us want this game to be in the best position it can possibly be in, but with individuality comes opinions. At the end of the day though, TFP are the ones with the vision and they will execute it. Don't like an opinion and/or the way it was presented? You can disagree with it, but you can also ignore it. It's only a problem if you make it out to be one for yourself, or if the person is being genuinely toxic. As in, actually toxic.

[dahkdm]

14 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

 

Some of us are whiners, others are skeptics, while others are critics and among us is the odd optimist. Oh wait, I can't say that because that would be generalizing, which is exactly what you are doing. One trait we all share in common, though to varying degrees between each person, is passion for this game. All of us want this game to be in the best position it can possibly be in, but with individuality comes opinions. At the end of the day though, TFP are the ones with the vision and they will execute it. Don't like an opinion and/or the way it was presented? You can disagree with it, but you can also ignore it. It's only a problem if you make it out to be one for yourself, or if the person is being genuinely toxic. As in, actually toxic.

Do you think that I don't want you to have an opinion? All I'm advocating for is people in this community -- specifically, this forum -- to take a less combative approach to discussion.

Edited March 23, 2021 by dahkdm (see edit history)

[meganoth]

28 minutes ago, dahkdm said:

Shown: someone not acting toxic at all.

 

There's a clear line between reasonable and unreasonable criticism, and comments like "you need to optimize A19 before A20" are just silly. There's a general thread of antagonism throughout this whole community and it is lame and alienating.

 

Just a nitpick: "silly" is definitely not the same as "toxic".

 

But I can confirm that this community is silly, no question about it 😁

Edited March 23, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[MechanicalLens]

3 minutes ago, dahkdm said:

Do you think that I don't want you to have an opinion? All I'm advocating for is people in this community to take a less combative approach to discussion.

 

That's a fair thing to ask for, but people are people, so unless you have them attached to puppet strings (in more ways than one), then that ain't gonna do much. Instead I would suggest you focus on your own path. Set a better example if you think that's what you're striving for. Guilt tripping people rarely works out.

Edited March 23, 2021 by MechanicalLens (see edit history)

[meganoth]

1 minute ago, MechanicalLens said:

 

That's a fair thing to ask for, but people are people, so unless you have them attached to puppet strings (in more ways than one), then that ain't gonna do much. Instead I would suggest you focus on your own path. Set a better example if you think that's what you're striving for. Guilt tripping people rarely works out.

Please don't lecture. Oh wait.....

[dahkdm]

24 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

 

That's a fair thing to ask for, but people are people, so unless you have them attached to puppet strings (in more ways than one), then that ain't gonna do much. Instead I would suggest you focus on your own path. Set a better example if you think that's what you're striving for. Guilt tripping people rarely works out.

"Setting a better example" isn't the only thing that can or should better affect a community. Even if there are 100 cool people, you have to deal with the 1000 uncool people. And uncool people drive cool people (like myself) away, leading to a greater disproportion of uncool people. You have to either get rid of the uncool people, or get the uncool people to act cool, making them into cool people. Moderators aren't the only people with this ability to shape communities.

 

25 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Just a nitpick: "silly" is definitely not the same as "toxic".

 

But I can confirm that this community is silly, no question about it 😁

They're not mutually exclusive. That "A19 before A20" comment in particular was both toxic (as in needlessly antagonistic) and silly (as in unreasonable).

Edited March 23, 2021 by dahkdm (see edit history)

[MechanicalLens]

10 minutes ago, dahkdm said:

"Setting a better example" isn't the only thing that can or should better affect a community. Even if there are 100 cool people, you have to deal with the 1000 uncool people. And uncool people drive cool people (like myself) away, leading to a greater disproportion of uncool people. You have to either get rid of the uncool people, or get the uncool people to act cool, making them into cool people. Moderators aren't the only people with this ability to shape communities.

 

1. Are you a moderator? No? Then that's not your responsibility. If the mods sense a problem with toxicity, then they will take it upon themselves to put those individuals back in place. I certainly was. Unless you're a mod, and I know I'm one to talk, just stop trying to meddle in matters that do not concern you.

 

2. So you're better than us? That's the vibe I'm getting from you, and I'm sure others are as well.

 

Edit reason: made myself seem less blunt... hopefully.

Edited March 23, 2021 by MechanicalLens (see edit history)

[beHypE]

What's the point of starting over with the same character though ? I mean if anything i'd want a fresh start just to see how much better I'll do compared to my first playthrough. Reusing my already existing character to just do the same story over with the added bonus of being both mechanically better AND my character being a beast seems foolish to me.

 

That being said I don't look forward to starting a 2nd Valheim playthrough, because while the game is fun it definitely doesn't have much replayability value for now; one of the biggest asset 7DTD has over Valheim (or should I say, had, before loot linearity killed this aspect) is loot rarity and randomness. A18 and prior was designed in a way that didn't ever let you predict what you'd find and what you'd struggle with. Valheim doesn't have any rare items, everything is about the grind to have enough quantity. Also, while it's procedurally generated, there's really nothing special to be discovered throughout the world, POIs in 7DTD make a big difference to the thrill of starting over.

Edited March 23, 2021 by beHypE (see edit history)