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My A18 feedback

~Kevin~

By ~Kevin~
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Roland RnGesus

Roland

Posted
Posted

All you needed to do was build a number 7

 

Four blocks up and three blocks over and they would come and stand right below you. Not a single one would bash the stilt.

 

In fact, if zombies were so destructive of nearby blocks in previous alphas then stilt bases would never have become such a popular base type. Pre-A17 you were 100% safe in a stilt base because zombies did not attack nearby blocks when they couldn't reach you. I can't believe that Ghostlight had such a unique experience with A16 from everyone else.

 

I built tree house bases and zombies never ever ever attacked trees.

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ZombieSurvivor Leader

ZombieSurvivor

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I've read all the posts in this thread a couple of times. Still waiting for anyone to actually fully explain in detail how exactly AI is better prior to A18. Not a single person has done it yet.....

 

Roland has already perfectly explained in detail how it is better in A18. I know someone out there has gotta feel AI prior A18 is better and capable of explaining it. (I'm trying to understand why a person feels that way)

 

RipClaw Did the best job at explaining his points (besides Roland) but he did not actually explain why/how AI is overall better prior to a18...

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Ghostlight Leader

Ghostlight

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Agreed 100%. I just cannot understand how anyone could think that the AI prior to A18 is better, especially in A16. I'm still waiting on a well thought out and articulated argument as to why it was better.

 

Sure, no problem...

 

1) In alphas prior to A17, zombie behavior was much more random- I know it wasn't but it appeared so. Since they did not automatically and unconditionally go for the weak blocks, the player could NOT build infinite ramps to exploit the AI. In A17 and A18 the player can use about 20 blocks to build a ramp and the AI will follow an infinite conga path around that ramp forever, and thus becomes absolutely zero threat. The blocks can be made of wood and will never be attacked so you can do this from day 1. Game is now over. Surely exploiting AI with an infinite ramp is not the intended way to play the game??? Now go look at every youtube video called "best horde base" or similar. Every one exploiting the A17 AI, without exception.

 

2) After A17 AI change, players can now sit out horde night on top of a converted POI and never ever worry about it. This is akin to the exploiting ramps described in point (1). Because the AI homes in on the weakest blocks, they tend to almost never attack the supporting blocks and will likely just be attacking all the insignificant blocks inside the POI (once the wall is breached). In A16 and prior there was a very high chance for the POI that the player was sitting in to be raised to the ground by the random nature of the horde attacks on supporting blocks - I've seen it happen dozens of times. This is more or less impossible in A17 and later. Again, surely this is not the way the game is intended to be played?

 

 

So let's assume the player is not going to exploit the AI with an infinite path or impregnable POI, yes? Here's still more reasons A16 and prior was better...

 

3) In A16 and previous, the AI would attempt to path to location where the player was. If it couldn't get there it would revert to attacking the closest block that was blocking it's path to the target player. This actually felt like what a "real" zombie would do and greatly increased immersion. It felt random! Build a 10-block wide wall between zombies and player, and zombies will attack all those blocks because the player is moving about shooting stuff. Watching an A17 "brain-dead" zombie carefully thread a path around your spike traps, following the clear path where spikes have already been cleared, and smartly heading straight for the single weakest block in your wall between it and the player is just stupid, and not how "real" zombies would behave.

 

4) In A16 and previous because of the random nature of how zombies behaved, there were many more base designs viable than there are now. The AI switch in A17 actually took a ton of super-fun base designs off the table. The changes to AI in A17 is what gives TFP their reputation of "no fun allowed". Any change to the game that reduces player choice is a bad one in my view. If a player wanted to build a base deep underground and never deal with zombies at all - SO WHAT? That's his business.

 

I just cannot understand how anyone could think that the AI in A17 and A18 is better. I'm still waiting on a well thought out and articulated argument as to why it is better. To summarise the A17 AI:

 

a) It is super easy to exploit. Even without infinite ramps you can predict which block they will go for and 100% influence which side of your base they will attack, and where, rendering defense trivial.

b) It removes a lot of fun base designs - like classic forts

c) Zombies should not be structural engineers or dodge their way through gaps between traps, it ruins immersion.

d) A17 zombies *cannot* raze POIs beyond simple tier 1s; A16 and earlier used to regularly do so.

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Ghostlight Leader

Ghostlight

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In fact, if zombies were so destructive of nearby blocks in previous alphas then stilt bases would never have become such a popular base type. Pre-A17 you were 100% safe in a stilt base because zombies did not attack nearby blocks when they couldn't reach you. I can't believe that Ghostlight had such a unique experience with A16 from everyone else.

 

I can explain that simply. I never built a stilt base. I guess a stilt base was the A16 equivalent of the A17 infinite ramp exploit. We never tried such a design, we just never thought of it. Shrug. We always build a fort-style base with us in the middle and defenses on 4 sides. The A16 AI against forts was very satisfying and "realistic". Forts are pointless in A17 because the AI can be easily herded into attacking a single side at a single point, again making it trivial to defend. They will do this even when the player did not intend to exploit them into doing it!!! Not quite as exploitative as an infinite ramp, but still....stupid.

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ZombieSurvivor Leader

ZombieSurvivor

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I disagree and I do not think all of what you said is accurate. Will reply later after I re-read what you posted and give more thought and gather the proof to refute the things I believe are incorrect

 

Example 1 is that in A16 if you knew how you could create a never ending congo line/ramp exploit as well. (I remember that from Capp00. he had at least 1 video showing how. and I also had to ban a couple of players in A16 who was doing it on our server) That video is actually what made me hate his youtube channel. and thats why I can remember plus the fact I rarely ever handed out bans in the 3 years I was an admin so each ban I can recall.

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Ghostlight Leader

Ghostlight

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Link me a video showing it. I searched through capp00's videos (I was big fan of his back then - all the tests he did) and the only one I can find where he illustrates an infinite loop ramp is from A17.

 

I built two A17 infinite loot ramps in my A16 install, using both of the classic A17 exploit strats for infinite ramps (1 space gap with opposing block on landing block, and 2 space gap) and the A16 zombies went nowhere the ramp, even when I was on top of the nearby platform that the ramp led to, except by chance some would come up it, depending wholly on the angle they were approaching from, but they never repeated it in a loop after they fell. They just fell and started random attacking blocks on the ground, eventually destroying the ramp. Not once did a zombie move AWAY from me, which would be necessary for an infinite ramp.

 

 

 

I figured that would be what you say, I will not bother wasting my time then in writing up a bunch of facts in order to prove you wrong as I said I would in my previous post. No offense. :) Maybe someone else will.

 

Fair enough, that's up to you. After all that howling in this thread for a reasoned argument as to why 16 was better, I expected more from you.

 

I made 3 other points, you know, as to why A16 was much better, only one of my 4 points was the easy to exploit infinite ramp. How about answering those?

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n2n1 Leader

n2n1

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Sorry but once again....never saw that happen.

 

Also tried to replicate in A16 and I can't. You will have to be more specific.

 

This often manifests itself only when zombies are running. There were no problems with walkers.

 

 

maybe cuz people liked the Dumb zombies instead of smart ones.

...

and that too.

 

 

 

 

No doubt there are still improvements to be made but overall the general state of zombie pathing and destructive behavior when they can’t reach the player is superior in my view.

....well.... in my opinion it is so bad that it would be better not to have it.

I can't call it good in any way (even for a dynamic world), but there is no doubt - that it exists.

 

Yes, indeed - circling it was a bug for A16.

But a if we consider A1, A2...there I didn't see any problems with intelligence at all? A13-A18 just pales against their background...

I liked it when zombies raised their heads and looked at me...when running in the shadows...

:D and when they didn't run away to return again....

 

 

 

this was scary:

 

and this:

- is ridiculous.
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quyxkh Ranger

quyxkh

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AI can be easily herded into attacking a single side at a single point, again making it trivial to defend. They will do this even when the player did not intend to exploit them into doing it!!! Not quite as exploitative as an infinite ramp, but still....stupid.

 

Except it's not. A defensible weak point is basic military tactics for a reason: it works. The dumbest and the smartest predators will try to find an easy way in because every other way is worse. The not-so-dumb ones will try to *make* an unanticipated easy way in, the A18 zeds don't plan that but they do attack at random some, you can't be sure nobody's getting in the back door or punching through a side wall, making it more of a surprise when they do.

 

The smartest enemies will try to wrong-foot you, try to create their own bad matchups, they'll feint and distract and flank, against fortifications they'll sap/burrow and what not. I hope all of that shows up when the bandits hit. If zeds were more likely to not attack the weak point, if they instead either picked a straight-charge route or joined any zed they could see, that could be interesting too, but it's not clear it'd be harder.

 

A pure all-the-walls attack … oh. I think I get it: in a high-max-alive attack that can work, it can bring enough zeds in contact that you have to desperately run around counterattacking and repairing, right? High drama, the zeds' aggregate block DPS can be high enough that you have to sequence your repairs right (and squeeze in enough counterattacks) or lose? But there's defenses against that, too. I have to suspect you found a base design that was fun to defend given the A16 zombie behavior, and they don't behave that any more, so that fun is gone, but you were, intentionally or un-, ignoring ways to cheese that, too. If the zeds aren't supposed to be structural engineers, then they won't know how to undermine your supports. Hence, "stilt bases", you're basically your own air support and they've got no cover, their choices are die or leave. I'd bet a two-story suspension base in any release would be impregnable, give the zeds an easy route to the ground floor where they can't drop you from where you're killing them.

 

Here, I hunted up

, he gets into stuff that doesn't exist in 7dtd but listen to him define the term, look at that checklist: identify avenues of attack, determine avenues of attack, determine where to kill the enemy, plan/integrate obstacles, and so on.
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Ghostlight Leader

Ghostlight

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I tried an experiment with this A16 running in circles thing, because I've never seen it. Taking the info from the other thread about AI, I used "pole blocks". Basically, centred pole pillars that look like lamp-posts. A block type I've never used in a base which might explain why I have never seen this circling effect. I built a standard 10x10 box fort-style base with iron spikes all round, me on top. I then built 8 pole block pillars (each 3 blocks high) at the 8 main compass points round the outside of the base about 5 blocks out from the spikes. I then ran a day 7 horde.

 

Sure enough some zombies began to run in circles around the poles. I've genuinely never seen that. However in their defence, I would add that it was only tiny number of the horde that did this (5 zombies that I definitely saw but not all at the same time) and they stopped circling after a while and joined the main attack against the walls.

 

Being curious I arranged the exact same setup in A18, and the results were far more interesting. A significant number of zombies....perhaps 20, actually attacked the poles instead of the base!! And they did not stop until all the poles on two sides were destroyed. Which took a while as they were steel. Since maxAlive was 24 on the server this is actually very significant, as it left my base being attacked by 4 zombies at a time till all the poles went down. Those poles trivialised the entire horde, as it was basically unable to fully spawn.

 

Remind me again why A18 AI is better?

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Ghostlight Leader

Ghostlight

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A pure all-the-walls attack … oh. I think I get it: in a high-max-alive attack that can work, it can bring enough zeds in contact that you have to desperately run around counterattacking and repairing, right? High drama, the zeds' aggregate block DPS can be high enough that you have to sequence your repairs right (and squeeze in enough counterattacks) or lose?

 

Yup you nailed it. An almost perfect description of our A16 horde nights. A16 horde nights were high drama and a white knuckle ride to cover all the breaches that started to occur. A18 hordes are dull as all hell in comparison because they are 100% predictable. We hardly ever need to even move in A18 hordes, which is heart-breaking and says it all imo.

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quyxkh Ranger

quyxkh

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Okay. I'm guessing you could force an easy-win horde night against the A16 AI with a "legitimate" build, if wedge-tip skirts aren't enough a dry-moat-and-bridge defense, just leave the bridge down, give the zeds a way out of the moat, that'd make those also work in A18. And i'm'a try that suspension-base idea for sure. I like boring just fine if it keeps me breathing, I like having to think, not having to fight. It's one of the reasons I hanker after buffing the crafting and survival games, make success require more territory than you can easily defend. If you want to advocate for zeds getting (more?) quickly frustrated when they're blocked by other zeds and switching to either random-destruction or wreck-the-nearest-non-terrain-block I'll help, I agree that zeds "should" be able to find that, and my weak-point bunkers maybe "should" need more than their wedge-tip skirts, having to dig a moat so the zeds physically can't reach anything but the killzoned entrance would feel right to me. How about also having the zeds focus on any player-placed blocks on the map if they can't reach the player, so if you build your horde base so they just plain can't get to you, when they go random-destructo they just might head off to your farm and family home 1km down the road?

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ktr Tracker

ktr

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Posted

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?82769-Zombie-AI-Running-in-circles

 

Zombies running in circles in A16 even got a community light fix

 

A16 zombies also had problems figuring out chairs, mini bike chassis and more.

 

example of an A16 'loop fall base'. It's not the one I was thinking of, but can't find the other rn.

 

- another example of spinning/not attacking structural support as long as the support was far enough away and the player directly above them.
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Pichii Nomad

Pichii

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To each their own but A18 is leaps and bounds better than A16.

Learn to improvise, adapt and fail. Its part of what makes this game fun.

Its still possible to have underground forts and bases- you just have to be smarter when building them...

Also, zombies being able to eventually tear down your PoI is healthy and good for the game.

PoI enemy spawning is bypassable.

 

Its clear you just want the game to be a familliar way and fail to cope with change.

For you, the devs have included a nice feature that lets you play 7d2d as A16 so you can continue to live in the past and disregard the reality of change and progression. :D

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