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~Kevin~

My A18 feedback

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Yes. The two big problems that AI always had since the beginning were fixed in A17.

 

1) Entities got stuck on terrain and could not path through the world very well.

 

2) If zombies couldn’t reach you they just stood still or spun in circles below you.

 

A17 brought new issues to be sure but many of those new issues have been fixed since then.

 

Unfortunately, for me personally, intelligence at A17-18 is the worst I've seen in games for 40 years.

And not just for me... Come on - let's be honest with ourselves!

In the end, i don't care how complex and effective it is. The way they behave - it seems very stupid, because it immediately catches the eye. I don't believe this is purely subjective ;)

 

Which is better - a stuck on terrain zombie or a sitting pecking at a ladder?

It turns out that, in fact, the main problem was not solved at all.

 

Regarding the second point... it turned out that before the zombies could eventually get to me in a rough way, but now they do not - they walk in ant mazes and jump out of the window when i go into the room.

 

To sum up: - It's not how smart the AI is that matters, but how it seems to the player. (what an illusion it represents for the player)

 

Thank You, Roland for your work, i sometimes just wonder how you can be everywhere at once! :)

Edited by n2n1 (see edit history)

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I just can’t disagree more N. Sorry, but I think the current AI is light years beyond what we had. Pathing is of utmost importance and whatever it is that catches your eye doesn’t trigger me. Oh yeah....and not only me......

 

I see zombies that are relentless and horrifying in how they get to you. Sorry if they don’t act like your preconceived notions of how zombies should act. I’ve decided to treat these monsters the way they are presented and not worry about how zombies have been presented in the past. What’s better? To stick rigidly to a definition of how zombies “should” act and because of that hate the game or to free your mind about TFPs version of monsters and enjoy the challenges and fun of how they behave?

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It doesn't matter what you or I or Joel think... then, after the release, look at YouTube - for You and for Joel - everything will be explained...and ridicule.

And, believe me, it won't be nice for me to realize that i was right.

 

You probably think i want to quarrel with You. No - I'm really worried about the future of the game that i Love.

 

(I read the Russian Wikipedia section about the game "GORE US". Developers repeat their mistakes.)

Edited by n2n1 (see edit history)

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Agree with Roland. The zombies now are much more insistent on getting to me. Since I upped the spawn rate (4x) it's much more dangerous to go into a POI without first clearing out a 1- or 2-block radius because they will come to the noise inside the POI if they wander near and they will find the entrance and they will surprise the F*** out of me when they show up in a previously-cleared room.

 

On horde night, we're currently in a tower/POI base where they just can't reach us and they are much, much more effective now at tearing the crap out of the base trying to collapse it on us.

 

They even will walk around the rim of my pit mine to get to the ladder so they can climb down and eat me (versus just dropping over the edge). Step 1 for mining: put a junk turret in the pit, pointing at the ladder.

 

More on topic with OP - one level in Master Chef is a must-have if you don't plan on surviving on canned food. And when you see both Master Chef (or any perk) and a schematic in the unlock screen, it means either will work. Read the descriptions of the perk levels to see what unlocks at which level.

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Yeah... they have become smarter...

 

...but why are they batter into a tree away from me?

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Yeah... they have become smarter...

 

...but why are they batter into a tree away from me?

 

To get away from all the negativity?

 

Cheers

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It doesn't matter what you or I or Joel think... then, after the release, look at YouTube - for You and for Joel - everything will be explained...and ridicule.

And, believe me, it won't be nice for me to realize that i was right.

 

You probably think i want to quarrel with You. No - I'm really worried about the future of the game that i Love.

 

(I read the Russian Wikipedia section about the game "GORE US". Developers repeat their mistakes.)

 

The game is enjoying more long lasting popularity than ever before. I doubt it is in spite of the zombie behavior.

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I just can’t disagree more N. Sorry, but I think the current AI is light years beyond what we had. Pathing is of utmost importance and whatever it is that catches your eye doesn’t trigger me. Oh yeah....and not only me......

 

I see zombies that are relentless and horrifying in how they get to you. Sorry if they don’t act like your preconceived notions of how zombies should act. I’ve decided to treat these monsters the way they are presented and not worry about how zombies have been presented in the past. What’s better? To stick rigidly to a definition of how zombies “should” act and because of that hate the game or to free your mind about TFPs version of monsters and enjoy the challenges and fun of how they behave?

 

Agreed 100%. I just cannot understand how anyone could think that the AI prior to A18 is better, especially in A16. I'm still waiting on a well thought out and articulated argument as to why it was better.

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....

I'm still waiting on a well thought out and articulated argument as to why it was better.

 

-------->

...but why are they batter into a tree away from me?

-------->

.... a sitting pecking at a ladder

-------->

Regarding the second point... it turned out that before the zombies could eventually get to me in a rough way, but now they do not - they walk in ant mazes and jump out of the window when i go into the room.

 

And i'm not saying that A16 had a good AI - i say that it started to deteriorate there.

 

Well, in A1 there was a good AI - there they started running in unlit places.

 

it's strange you guys can't see all this :D Edited by n2n1 (see edit history)

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-------->

...but why are they batter into a tree away from me?

 

Some do but not all. This is in response to feedback from A17 that people didn't want all zombies to be able to follow long convoluted pathways to the player. The devs agreed and so added some random behaviors and also made a chance for zombies to forget long pathways and go into destruction mode. It isn't every zombie going after trees in the opposite direction of you. It is a variety of behavior ranging from stupid to very canny. Also, its better for a zombie to fell a tree and keep moving rather than get stuck on it.

 

-------->

.... a sitting pecking at a ladder

 

Bad translation. Sorry, not sure what you mean.

 

-------->

Regarding the second point... it turned out that before the zombies could eventually get to me in a rough way, but now they do not - they walk in ant mazes and jump out of the window when i go into the room.

 

See point one. You are going to get a mix. I've seen what you describe AND I've seen them come straight for me. I've seen some walk through an open door to get me and others try to go through the wall next to the door. At least it is a mix which actually is more creepy when they act so bizarre and alien.

 

And i'm not saying that A16 had a good AI - i say that it started to deteriorate there.

 

There was nothing relatable between A16 and A17. A17 was brand new code. A16 was an extension of the original code that always had been in the game. It didn't start to deteriorate in A16 and get worse in A17 and A18. A16 was the end of the old pathing system. A17 was the beginning of the new pathing system-- completely new. Alpha 18 is an iteration of A17 that brings more randomness and forgetfulness into their behavior.

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Some do but not all.

...

:) I love this...

 

 

 

Some do but not all. This is in response to feedback from A17 that people didn't want all zombies to be able to follow long convoluted pathways to the player. The devs agreed and so added some random behaviors and also made a chance for zombies to forget long pathways and go into destruction mode. It isn't every zombie going after trees in the opposite direction of you. It is a variety of behavior ranging from stupid to very canny. Also, its better for a zombie to fell a tree and keep moving rather than get stuck on it.

See point one. You are going to get a mix. I've seen what you describe AND I've seen them come straight for me. I've seen some walk through an open door to get me and others try to go through the wall next to the door. At least it is a mix which actually is more creepy when they act so bizarre and alien.

Yes, i am aware of the technical features, but still - they batter into a tree, whatever it means.

Ok...Before that, they were stuck in the bushes... some but not all ;).

 

 

 

Bad translation. Sorry, not sure what you mean.

this

Edited by n2n1 (see edit history)

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this

 

They always do that to that specific type of block not sure why. Its not like they do that everywhere. They can get weird with stairs depending on how it is layed out in the poi. I agree that needs to be fixed but that does not make the overall AI bad...

 

Another example

Edited by ZombieSurvivor (see edit history)

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Stairs is the word you want. Not ladders.

 

The reason they dig through stairs is because the pathing code tells them to dig if they detect a player below them. They can’t tell the difference between you being below them underground and you being below them downstairs.

 

Faatal knows about this and will get it sorted when there is time.

 

But better that they sometimes dig inappropriately than that they never dig at all.

 

Digging & leaping zombies is another huge plus imo over the previous pathing code.

Edited by Roland (see edit history)

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I had one z from a wandering horde turn tail and sprint away after his arm was blown off! there is certainly randomness to their behaviour.

its ok, he came back (eventually) so I didn't have to chase him :-)

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I had one z from a wandering horde turn tail and sprint away after his arm was blown off! there is certainly randomness to their behaviour.

its ok, he came back (eventually) so I didn't have to chase him :-)

 

I’ve read reports of people losing their spear because the zombie took off with it stuck in them and they couldn’t find him afterward....lol

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Remember when the zombies would do this in A16? lol :-P

 

giphy.gif

 

Others have said this and yet....nope! Never seen them do that and I played 1000 hours of A16. Unless you mean once their legs were broken and they were lying on top of spikes, then yes they would twirl on the spot a little but nothing game-breaking, they were already screwed.

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2) If zombies couldn’t reach you they just stood still or spun in circles below you.

 

Not our experience, sorry. If they couldn't get to us but knew where we were, they attacked the nearest wall or other similar block as if trying to get to us. As they should.

 

A16 AI was absolutely superior to anything that came after as far as I am concerned.

Edited by Ghostlight (see edit history)

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My post earlier was not to say A16 was better, but to clarify that A16 was not horrible either.

 

Mt statement was to say that A16 did not have obvious exploits that kill the game like A17/A18. ANd now I realize that I made a mistake: A16 exploit was that they could not attack down, and you could make a wooden bunker no zombie could reach. Digging down was a much needed addition.

 

My opinion is that the pathing in A18 should apply to all zombies during the week (it works great when a wandering horde comes along during a POI raid). But Blood Moon should go back to complete random, straight-line GPS, smash-through-anything-in-my-way mode. And they should always be able to attack in any direction.

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Not our experience, sorry. If they couldn't get to us but knew where we were, they attacked the nearest wall or other similar block as if trying to get to us. As they should.

 

A16 AI was absolutely superior to anything that came after as far as I am concerned.

Still waiting....

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?148807-My-A18-feedback&p=1096245&viewfull=1#post1096245

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Agreed 100%. I just cannot understand how anyone could think that the AI prior to A18 is better, especially in A16. I'm still waiting on a well thought out and articulated argument as to why it was better.

 

Better is often very subjective. The new AI is more sophisticated but it is not what players expect from zombies.

It was better in the sense that you believe that an instinct-driven being would act in this way.

 

I'm always impressed when I do a quest in a factory, a zombie falls from the roof and manages to get back to me through this maze, but I wouldn't expect zombies to do that. I also wouldn't expect that zombies knows the difference between wood and steel and then attack the wood block.

 

One point that is often mentioned is that zombies used to be more random. In fact, their behavior had little to do with randomness. It only gave the impression of randomness. The zombies spawned at a random position and then ran towards you in a straight line. This made the horde seem much more random than if the zombies all take exactly the same path, making them look like a group of konga dancers.

 

What is also a problem with the new AI is that in some cases the AI does react in strange ways. In the current video from JaWoodle you can see for example how a zombie suddenly runs away instead of running towards the player although there was no reason not to do so.

 

(5:50)
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Better is often very subjective. The new AI is more sophisticated but it is not what players expect from zombies.

It was better in the sense that you believe that an instinct-driven being would act in this way.

 

I'm always impressed when I do a quest in a factory, a zombie falls from the roof and manages to get back to me through this maze, but I wouldn't expect zombies to do that. I also wouldn't expect that zombies knows the difference between wood and steel and then attack the wood block.

 

One point that is often mentioned is that zombies used to be more random. In fact, their behavior had little to do with randomness. It only gave the impression of randomness. The zombies spawned at a random position and then ran towards you in a straight line. This made the horde seem much more random than if the zombies all take exactly the same path, making them look like a group of konga dancers.

 

What is also a problem with the new AI is that in some cases the AI does react in strange ways. In the current video from JaWoodle you can see for example how a zombie suddenly runs away instead of running towards the player although there was no reason not to do so.

 

(5:50)

 

Those are some good points.

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Better is often very subjective. The new AI is more sophisticated but it is not what players expect from zombies.

It was better in the sense that you believe that an instinct-driven being would act in this way.

 

I'm always impressed when I do a quest in a factory, a zombie falls from the roof and manages to get back to me through this maze, but I wouldn't expect zombies to do that. I also wouldn't expect that zombies knows the difference between wood and steel and then attack the wood block.

 

But you were fine with them knowing the difference between a wall and a door? Zombies were prioritized to attack doors in the old code to the point that you create honey pot traps with doors and oil barrels because they would turn away from the player to go attack a door...

 

One point that is often mentioned is that zombies used to be more random. In fact, their behavior had little to do with randomness. It only gave the impression of randomness. The zombies spawned at a random position and then ran towards you in a straight line. This made the horde seem much more random than if the zombies all take exactly the same path, making them look like a group of konga dancers.

 

I’ll grant that this was blatant in A17 but I get them from all directions in A18. Of course, you can build in a way to funnel them into a single corridor which in previous alphas they would have ignored so maybe that is what you are referring to. But as far as spawning randomly in all directions...I’m seeing that in the current build.

 

What is also a problem with the new AI is that in some cases the AI does react in strange ways. In the current video from JaWoodle you can see for example how a zombie suddenly runs away instead of running towards the player although there was no reason not to do so.

 

(5:50)

 

No doubt there are still improvements to be made but overall the general state of zombie pathing and destructive behavior when they can’t reach the player is superior in my view.

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<snip>

No doubt there are still improvements to be made but overall the general state of zombie pathing and destructive behavior when they can’t reach the player is superior in my view.

 

Agreed and still waiting on someone to explain how the AI is overall better prior to A18. I have a strong feeling I'll look like this by the time someone does.

ezgif-com-add-text.gif

 

Edited by ZombieSurvivor (see edit history)

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Not our experience, sorry. If they couldn't get to us but knew where we were, they attacked the nearest wall or other similar block as if trying to get to us. As they should.

 

A16 AI was absolutely superior to anything that came after as far as I am concerned.

 

The running in circles was just a bug, but it was definitely happening. Nothing serious, but since it seems to have been very old and convoluted code nobody wanted to touch with a 10 foot pole, fixing bugs in that part probably would not have been easy. Nor was extending it to include bandits.

 

. Go to minute 8:32 !! Even though the player is directly beside the zombie and reachable he runs in circles. I saw this happening all the time when meleeing zombies out on the street. I don't know why you haven't seen this (maybe the bug didn't occur on insane or any other different setting you had, who cares). Enough people have seen this and here you have video evidence.

 

. Another video, only here the player is unreachable on a platform, so not as jarring. But helped to make stilt bases practically 99% safe.

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I’ll grant that this was blatant in A17 but I get them from all directions in A18. Of course, you can build in a way to funnel them into a single corridor which in previous alphas they would have ignored so maybe that is what you are referring to. But as far as spawning randomly in all directions...I’m seeing that in the current build.

 

You could still path them with doors and player position. IMO this was part of why basic wooden spikes were so OP in early alphas. You could lay out a few rows of them and easily play pied piper from a safe position above the zombies, or have doors set up for them to attack.

 

No doubt there are still improvements to be made but overall the general state of zombie pathing and destructive behavior when they can’t reach the player is superior in my view.

 

Agreed, I consider the destructive behavior and destructive capabilities to be probably the closest approximation we'll get of zombies not being all that bright and the pressure of 100s or 1000s of bodies pressed against a single wall.

 

I look at the pathing sort of the same - it's an estimation of behavior. I expect nearly anything with sensory ability to take the path of least resistance and in a herd of dumb zombies, I'd expect them to follow the butt of the undead sheep in front of them. Is there pathing too smart? Maybe, but I see it as a trade off of what technical limitations can support while still having a lone zombie be something of a threat.

 

 

Edit to add:

Can't remember whose let's play it was, but they were playing on insane in alpha 16. They made an X base out of wood and frames to take advantage of the zombies spinning in circle beneath the center position. So it could definitely be triggered on higher difficulties.

Edited by ktr (see edit history)

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