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~Kevin~

My A18 feedback

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Played a little bit of 18.3. I liked 18.3, but it was still not as good as 16.

 

I would like to say I was very disappointed in 17 and 18 is a step in the right direction.

 

However, Alpha 16 was an almost perfect game. All we needed were some bigger bosses that could do more damage to bases. It seemed the difficulty leveled out after a certain point. Rather than fixing those small issues, the developers gave the game an entire facelift.

 

It's a pretty common opinion. I agree completly. a16 had the perfect scope, they just needed to add content and polish the game. a17 added nice content but changed many things for the worse. A18 while clearly far superior to a17, included for some strange reason a change in attitude from the devs, which now want a more borderlands like game and damage the crafting part more and more.

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So people will always (try to) find a way to defeat the AI and the devs are always going to fix it?

Best to have some dumb zombies that b line it and wreck everything in their path to get to you imho.

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After 15 months of staying away from the forums , i return to the exact reason why i left in the first place. Constant and repeating negativity in just about every thread about the same bloody thing.

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My main problem with a18 is that it seems like you can't craft anything anymore without a damn schematic of some kind. I can't even make bacon and eggs without being a master chef(wtf?). And I can't even figure out what skill I need to make a first aid bandage, being that none of the wikis for this game have been updated for a18 yet. It seems almost unplayable at this point. I've always hated the idea of schematics for 90% of items. I get the concept of needing one to build something ridiculous, like a car or a high tech firearm, but needing them for simple ♥♥♥♥ like basic food any 10 year old with a frying pan can cook, or a damn bandage? Ridiculous. Can anyone tell me how to unlock first aid bandages without spending 150 weeks looking for a schematic?

 

Mate we hear the smoke alarm going off in your apartment all the time... you need a schematic lol 🤣😅🤣😅 (jokes)

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Played a little bit of 18.3. I liked 18.3, but it was still not as good as 16.

 

I would like to say I was very disappointed in 17 and 18 is a step in the right direction.

 

However, Alpha 16 was an almost perfect game. All we needed were some bigger bosses that could do more damage to bases. It seemed the difficulty leveled out after a certain point. Rather than fixing those small issues, the developers gave the game an entire facelift.

 

+1 my dude

 

And the facelift was not necessarily in the right direction. Yeah, more unpredictable behavior for the zombies was a step in the right direction, but that was about it. How about introducing more zombie types for chrissakes? Scientist lady and Demolisher? Two in how many years? Every POI is a linear dungeon now? Some of the old structures were fine scattered about in RWG. Now they are pretty much gone. Every change is whole hog and they eliminate too much. Also, the undead looking for weak spots...? Just weird. And not because it makes anything more difficult, but just because it's out of place.

Edited by RyanX (see edit history)

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Disappointment doesn't even begin to cover how I felt about 17, and it starts to cover 18. I loved 16 and wish it had just been expanded and refined, not thrown in the trash. Really miss LBD as well.

Don't have a lot to add to this - I just agree so much that I felt it worthy of a quote.

 

i am confused with the struggle people have with cooking. i get heaps of recipe schematics in cupboards, and the buried supplies gives a recipe nearly every time.

 

i do struggle early game to get enough farm plots going for ingredients, but not recipes.

 

am i missing something?

I think I can guess some of it. You mentioning "buried supplies" and "heaps of recipes... in cupboards" leads me to believe that you're one of those who, even before A18 was more of a looter-shooter player? That's not meant to be derogatory, just how I would describe what I imagine your play style is... "loot all the things!" Right? A significant portion of the player-base, while they most likely loot to varying degrees, prefer to play the more "self-sustaining as a goal" route. So they prefer to spend less time running through every single POI in a 9km radius, and more into making a sort of bastion against the undead. Which, I would argue, is objectively more sensible to do in a hypoethetical zombie apocolypse - minimize your time out there in danger. If you want to play that style, and that's what you enjoy and kept you enthralled through A16 and prior, this is not only much more difficult to do here, but is a fairly unenjoyable experience.

 

I just canآ’t disagree more N. Sorry, but I think the current AI is light years beyond what we had. Pathing is of utmost importance and whatever it is that catches your eye doesnآ’t trigger me. Oh yeah....and not only me......

 

I see zombies that are relentless and horrifying in how they get to you. Sorry if they donآ’t act like your preconceived notions of how zombies should act. Iآ’ve decided to treat these monsters the way they are presented and not worry about how zombies have been presented in the past. Whatآ’s better? To stick rigidly to a definition of how zombies آ“shouldآ” act and because of that hate the game or to free your mind about TFPs version of monsters and enjoy the challenges and fun of how they behave?

Pathfinding is more omniscient, but I would argue omniscience is not always the best solution. Regarding "Sorry they don't act like your preconceived notion".... Well, I feel you should think about that. Zombies have decades of historical portrayal in a certain light that's inextricably driven into everyone's mind. So, when your product's premise and hook uses "zombie" to bait consumers, there's a rightful expectation that what you deliver matches the portrayal we all know and expect. To not do that is misdirection and, if egregious enough, a very bad business practice. To be clear, I don't think how zombies are portrayed in 7DtD is nearly to that point, but I feel your "get over it not being what you expect it to be based on decades of experience" attitude is the same type of attitude that would excuse those aforementioned business practices.

 

But you were fine with them knowing the difference between a wall and a door?

I know that's what he said or implied, and I think you know it, too. This was a very dishonest attempt to derail his point.

 

Agreed and still waiting on someone to explain how the AI is overall better prior to A18. I have a strong feeling I'll look like this by the time someone does.

ezgif-com-add-text.gif

I think this kinda gets into semantics, but I'd argue that while the complexity of the AI in A18 is leagues above, the A16's AI was "better suited" to represent shambling corpses whose higher brain functions are all gone and who are driven on nothing but basic instinct to feed. This goes back to my earlier comment that omniscience does not necessarily always equate to a better AI. Having the ability to unerringly pinpoint the most precise, effective method to seige me with a level of perfection that would make God flinch... is not necessarily representative of what the vast, VAST, VAST bulk of people consider reasonable for what we're calling "a zombie".

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Fataal has a problem here. If zombies know which blocks are supporting and attack only those, people will complain about structural engineers. If not, they will attack arbitrary blocks and that looks weird.

Personally, I don't think that looks "weird" when we consider it's a corpse driven on instinct and according to practically any source material ever has no capacity for critical thought beyond "I wanna eat that".

 

I would much rather see the zombies that appear to be randomized w/ arbitrary attack patterns than those that seem to have, not only high-level brain function, but a masters degree in engineering.

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Pathfinding is more omniscient, but I would argue omniscience is not always the best solution. Regarding "Sorry they don't act like your preconceived notion".... Well, I feel you should think about that. Zombies have decades of historical portrayal in a certain light that's inextricably driven into everyone's mind. So, when your product's premise and hook uses "zombie" to bait consumers, there's a rightful expectation that what you deliver matches the portrayal we all know and expect. To not do that is misdirection and, if egregious enough, a very bad business practice. To be clear, I don't think how zombies are portrayed in 7DtD is nearly to that point, but I feel your "get over it not being what you expect it to be based on decades of experience" attitude is the same type of attitude that would excuse those aforementioned business practices.

 

Well since we are only talking about this game and we both agree that in this game there is no bait and switch dishonesty about using the zombie name let’s not worry so much about hypothetical others who are filling their pockets with money by grossly misrepresenting the established idea of what a zombie is.

 

I know that's what he said or implied, and I think you know it, too. This was a very dishonest attempt to derail his point.

 

What are you talking about? I wasn’t trying to derail his point at all let alone “dishonestly”. Why not take on my point directly instead of attacking some supposed motive of mine for making it? What you just did by going after my supposed motive instead of answering my counterpoint is exactly what I would call an attempt to derail.

 

Having the ability to unerringly pinpoint the most precise, effective method to seige me with a level of perfection that would make God flinch... is not necessarily representative of what the vast, VAST, VAST bulk of people consider reasonable for what we're calling "a zombie".

 

Its gotta be tough being the Lorax of Zombie Fans. I can’t speak for so many but I can say that I personally enjoy POI exploration more now than I ever did pre A17 precisely because of how the pathfinding changed.

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How to make a great game:

 

Step one, start with a16

Step two, fix the zombie running in circles issue

Step three, add the new /content/, not the overhauls, of 17 and 18

 

Done

 

(Sup enemy for life! Been a while!)

 

Its gotta be tough being the Lorax of Zombie Fans. I can’t speak for so many but I can say that I personally enjoy POI exploration more now than I ever did pre A17 precisely because of how the pathfinding changed

 

...this a joke? Being hand held through every poi having the exact same experience knowing exactly where the dangers lay each time is more fun for you? Not buying it. Just don't believe you.

 

More fun for me was having zombies in the world, not tucked away in closets and rafters.

Edited by Guppycur (see edit history)

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How to make a great game:

 

Step one, start with a16

Step two, fix the zombie running in circles issue

Step three, add the new /content/, not the overhauls, of 17 and 18

 

Done

Wait what? Replacing a small problem with a big problem does not solve the small problem? You're the Lorax of common sense or something?

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I've come to a conclusion as to why very few players claim AI is not better in A18, granted I could be entirely wrong...Since the AI can be exploited in A18 that makes the AI bad.

 

Absolutely yes. Also the A17/A18 AI is far less flavorful and immersive than the random-feeling "visceral" A16 AI. Zombies homing in on the easiest path/weakest blocks is stupid, while zombies differentiating between a solid wall and a door is flavorful. imo at least

 

Which.....come on....thats not the way you judge, the question is why is AI better prior A18. there were ways to exploit it in A16 as well as in A18. IMO from all the exploits I know of, there are less and or harder to do exploits in A18.

 

I did a recent analysis on another thread, the A18 AI is far easier to exploit than the A16 in every single regard except one: underground bases; A16 zombies cannot dig down. In every other situation, the A16 AI is harder to exploit:

 

Stilts: both AIs equally useless against stilt-based bases

Infinite ramps: A18 super easy to exploit; A16 not proven

Thin poles causing circling zombies: A18 far worse than A16 since in A18 the zombies never stop being attracted to the decoy poles, in A16 they do, eventually

Riding a vehicle all night: both AIs equally useless at dealing with that

Sitting atop a fortified POI: A18 100% unable to raze POI; A16 manages it occasionally (at random)

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Absolutely yes. Also the A17/A18 AI is far less flavorful and immersive than the random-feeling "visceral" A16 AI. Zombies homing in on the easiest path/weakest blocks is stupid, while zombies differentiating between a solid wall and a door is flavorful. imo at least
And that is exactly the point: The increased "intelligence" of A17+ zombies makes their bevhaviour more forseeable. You know a lot better where they will go, you can use their "intelligence" to your advantage and control them with it. Design the path they will follow.

 

Of course you could argue that this is the tower defense aspect of the game, and I can understand when people enjoy just that.

 

Going for doors even makes some sort of sense, doors are some kind of "indentation" in a wall, so they would get stuck there, doors have gaps, that are brighter than walls, they led sound through better than walls.

 

Of course it is a problem when you can place dummy walls to attract zombies. Should've been solved.

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I just can’t disagree more N. Sorry, but I think the current AI is light years beyond what we had. ....I see zombies that are relentless and horrifying in how they get to you.

 

While I see zombies that are laughably predictable and therefore, by definition, not much threat.

 

In A16 I saw zombies that were horrifically random in their attacks and thus felt visceral. Yup that's the absolute right word here. A16 zombies felt visceral: mindless, random, violent. A17 zombies feel....programmed.

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...this a joke? Being hand held through every poi having the exact same experience knowing exactly where the dangers lay each time is more fun for you? Not buying it. Just don't believe you.

 

No joke. The conversation was specifically about the pathfinding of zombies. The fact that they can actually path to you does make POI exploration more exciting than before.

 

You want to add design of the POI? In that case I still think they are an improvement over the old POIs but not better than they could’ve been if they had been designed more unpredictably. I would like it if they were improved with some randomness and no guiding light path. I would not like to return to the basic POIs of the old days.

 

More fun for me was having zombies in the world, not tucked away in closets and rafters.

 

That’s nice. It wasn’t what I was talking about but I agree that zombies in the world and zombies in rafters and closets would be ideal.

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Haven't played for over 1 year because of work. Saw friends playing on steam so I gave it a try... Here's my raw feedback after a year of absence.

I have played way too many hours and way too many alphas so I'll be direct.

 

 

First impression:

 

1.1 Spawned in during the night, couldn't see ♥♥♥♥ cause the automatic gamma setting was set so low.

1.2 Immediately had running zombies on me, clubbed the zombie but aftr getting 1 and only 1 hit got infected + bleeding

1.3 Zombie dies, but getting another hit + bleeding (1st death).

1.4 Melee feels a bit weird. But it has been a year, no worries yet.

1.5 Ok lets try again, grab some stones, some sticks. Spider zombie 5 yards away from me (2nd death)

 

At this point I'm like, what the fuq. I had previously done games with over 3000 zombie kills and 0 deaths. (clubbing was real easy)

I'm reflecting at my actions, like what is going wrong? Why is this game so bad suddenly at zombie spawning?

 

Combat It feels strange, slow, unresponsive and laggy on both sides. Zombies attack speed bonus is still insane compared to their walking speed. But is it the combat change what's killing me? Perhaps, it feels new, maybe I have to get used to it. It seems zombies shrug of melee hits to the head way more easily then what they used to. While attacking more ferociously.

The "enrage" thing feels really ♥♥♥♥ty, at least for now. It's totally random and the speed % which zombies are running at isgoing up and down. Like, every single fight could turn bad on a simple enrage if you're not playing serious for a second.

 

movement Moving feels slow as well. There's a delay in when you run and it feels like I have less control over my character then what I used to have.

 

Stamina At this point I survived a bit longer, killed some zombies, explored a bit. Now I'm looking at my stamina bar.

Jesus man it's already down to 60. My mind starts calculating. I've basically collected ♥♥♥♥, only killed a few zombies and explored 2 town areas. I'm finding some food but not enough to constantly start munching on things.

- quick math, I just start suiciding when stamina reaches too low. Stacking all the food I can find for that one time when I stop suiciding.

 

At this point I'm basically laughing at the game mechanics. What kind of crazy mechanic would stimulate food hoarding and suiciding? Whatever, I'll move on.

 

After finding my 3rd city I've ran into 3 random radiation zones already. The first one caught me by suprise and killed me. The other 2 I immediately ran back the other direction. It makes no sense for them to be there and it's purely annoying me if anything else.

 

Loot I'm finding a lot of stuff, playing on 200% loot. But there is so much crap in the world now, compared to previous alphas.

 

I feel like the devs stripped 90% of the buildings turning 2/3 of every loot container in the world into a mindless decorative piece of ... something. Hated this about fallout 4 and I hate it even more in this game. Why build such a huge game if you add so many non lootable // non- interactive stuff? Some new ones are added like water bottles or clothes sacks which add a nice touch but after a year I would have expected different.

 

Skills As I continue I slowly start getting some skill points. I browse the skills in a SP map and decide where to spend them. I feel like the usual ones are neccesary for the game like, better loot, better tools, better weapon skills etc. But there's so many skills! I couldn't even cook the simplest thing without taking the chef perk. As I realise how little I can actually do without buying massive amounts of perks or finding books I'm actually getting more annoyed instead of more intrigued.

 

 

Time to summarize after playing a few hours.

 

- Combat got slightly better once you get the hang of it. But it feels massively gimped compared to A16/A17. I have to exploit the swing time in order to hit and to avoid getting hit. Zombies enraging / lag or running zombies counter this and make the melee physics real bad. At one point in my life time I hope to see Developers reducing the attack speed from 300% to 100% when zombies are in melee range. Zombies are dieing but don't ask how, it's real messy.

 

- Stamina, still going down way way way too fast. I keep suiciding in order to reset after reaching ~30 stamina. Jumping and swinging feels like it uses a lot more now. Regeneration is not too bad actually but because of the max stamina reduction it's a tad useless.

 

- Loot, getting a quite big variety of loot so far, but immensely saddened by all those useless decorative items in the world now. If I'd play at 100% this would even be worse because if not getting anything from the remaining loot containers. (playing at 200%, which is fine).

Where are my log spikes at Devs?

 

- Movement feels sluggish, gimped and unresponsive so far. Feels like I want to hit the PWR button on my character so it reacts better.

 

- Skills, It feels like there's too many skills and the amount needed to function properly is a lot higher than what it used to be. You now need so many different skills in order to just cook, build, craft, run, attack properly. Without em it gets ♥♥♥♥ty real fast. I can't even make regular seeds.

 

I hope it get's better over time, but for now it feels like an rehauled game adding a lot of different stuff, changing things. But in the end it's a more complicated but worse game than what it used to be. I feel many changes are a waste on the game. Adding forced artificial difficulties to the game. Still can't see hunger and thirst on the UI??? And what about the stealth eye??? Worked perfect.

 

I feel like mods already added a lot of things 1 year ago that weren't in the vanilla game. And I feel like those mods' difficulty felt better and way more natural than the artificial difficulty I keep feeling from this A18. As I said, I haven't played for a year, didn't read up on the plans or directions the devs are heading. But this is my opinion for now.

 

Greets,

 

Batman

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Well since we are only talking about this game and we both agree that in this game there is no bait and switch dishonesty about using the zombie name let’s not worry so much about hypothetical others who are filling their pockets with money by grossly misrepresenting the established idea of what a zombie is.

I said this didn't amount to bait and switch, but that your argument was still ignorant, regardless. So let's worry about that? People concerned that the enemy doesn't act like everyone has every reason to expect is a valid concern. My point was that it is in fact valid and that your argument otherwise is the same type of ridiculousness that would try to justify the aforementioned bait and switch.

 

 

 

What are you talking about? I wasn’t trying to derail his point at all let alone “dishonestly”. Why not take on my point directly instead of attacking some supposed motive of mine for making it? What you just did by going after my supposed motive instead of answering my counterpoint is exactly what I would call an attempt to derail.

The hell you weren't. He said he he essentially prefered A16 "because it didn't have [x]" issue. To which you literally, and directly responded with "Oh, but you were okay with [y]?" He in absoloutely no damned way said or implied he was okay with that. And your attempt to try to imply that he was somehow fine with that is, in case you forgot, a very dishonest attempt to derail his point. Believe it or not, it's quite possible to not be okay with [y] and still think [x] is a bigger issue and/or one worth mentioning.

 

 

 

Its gotta be tough being the Lorax of Zombie Fans. I can’t speak for so many but I can say that I personally enjoy POI exploration more now than I ever did pre A17 precisely because of how the pathfinding changed.

I wouldn't call it being a "Lorax". Just capable of using the basest form of common sense. Do you touch a fire and expect it to make you cold? Obviously after this exchange, I can't quite speak for you, but most reasonable people would expect it to burn. Why? Knowledge gained from pretty universal information (and maybe a little experience, to boot). To know that people generally come in with an expectation that [this extremely recognizeable thing] will exhibit the same characteristics it does in essentially any/every other scenario doesn't require "being the Lorax of Zombie Fans." It requires basic mental processes and a willingness to use them.

Edited by Prodigy (see edit history)

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Absolutely yes. Also the A17/A18 AI is far less flavorful and immersive than the random-feeling "visceral" A16 AI. Zombies homing in on the easiest path/weakest blocks is stupid, while zombies differentiating between a solid wall and a door is flavorful. imo at least

 

 

 

I did a recent analysis on another thread, the A18 AI is far easier to exploit than the A16 in every single regard except one: underground bases; A16 zombies cannot dig down. In every other situation, the A16 AI is harder to exploit:

 

Stilts: both AIs equally useless against stilt-based bases

Infinite ramps: A18 super easy to exploit; A16 not proven

Thin poles causing circling zombies: A18 far worse than A16 since in A18 the zombies never stop being attracted to the decoy poles, in A16 they do, eventually

Riding a vehicle all night: both AIs equally useless at dealing with that

Sitting atop a fortified POI: A18 100% unable to raze POI; A16 manages it occasionally (at random)

Stilts aren't necessary lol. Just knock out the stairs to a 2-story POI and use a hanging ladder. on a perch. I know, I know, it's manipulating the same mechanics/AI issues - but it at least gives a feeling of more creative base-making - at least for me! lol

 

Also, I tend to agree about A16 vs A18 randomness. I don't particularly liking the zombies all going toward the same door (that they couldn't even see when they started running that way lol), but at least it's sensible. Being able to literally play MazeRunner through the most intricately designed areas to get to me? Kinda... well.... stupid, to be bluntly honest.

 

And that is exactly the point: The increased "intelligence" of A17+ zombies makes their bevhaviour more forseeable. You know a lot better where they will go, you can use their "intelligence" to your advantage and control them with it. Design the path they will follow.

 

Of course you could argue that this is the tower defense aspect of the game, and I can understand when people enjoy just that.

 

Going for doors even makes some sort of sense, doors are some kind of "indentation" in a wall, so they would get stuck there, doors have gaps, that are brighter than walls, they led sound through better than walls.

 

Of course it is a problem when you can place dummy walls to attract zombies. Should've been solved.

I like how you put that. Nothing much to add other than agreement, felt it was worth a quote.

 

Also, that's good "game appropriate" justification for going for the door (versus magically ascertaining the weakest aspect of the most complex build as if guided by divinity.)

 

While I see zombies that are laughably predictable and therefore, by definition, not much threat.

 

In A16 I saw zombies that were horrifically random in their attacks and thus felt visceral. Yup that's the absolute right word here. A16 zombies felt visceral: mindless, random, violent. A17 zombies feel....programmed.

Agreed. You're not fighting zombies now. They're like... robots with an easily identifiable attack-pattern.

Time to summarize after playing a few hours.

 

- Combat got slightly better once you get the hang of it. But it feels massively gimped compared to A16/A17. I have to exploit the swing time in order to hit and to avoid getting hit. Zombies enraging / lag or running zombies counter this and make the melee physics real bad. At one point in my life time I hope to see Developers reducing the attack speed from 300% to 100% when zombies are in melee range. Zombies are dieing but don't ask how, it's real messy.

 

- Stamina, still going down way way way too fast. I keep suiciding in order to reset after reaching ~30 stamina. Jumping and swinging feels like it uses a lot more now. Regeneration is not too bad actually but because of the max stamina reduction it's a tad useless.

 

- Loot, getting a quite big variety of loot so far, but immensely saddened by all those useless decorative items in the world now. If I'd play at 100% this would even be worse because if not getting anything from the remaining loot containers. (playing at 200%, which is fine).

Where are my log spikes at Devs?

 

- Movement feels sluggish, gimped and unresponsive so far. Feels like I want to hit the PWR button on my character so it reacts better.

 

- Skills, It feels like there's too many skills and the amount needed to function properly is a lot higher than what it used to be. You now need so many different skills in order to just cook, build, craft, run, attack properly. Without em it gets ♥♥♥♥ty real fast. I can't even make regular seeds.

 

I hope it get's better over time, but for now it feels like an rehauled game adding a lot of different stuff, changing things. But in the end it's a more complicated but worse game than what it used to be. I feel many changes are a waste on the game. Adding forced artificial difficulties to the game. Still can't see hunger and thirst on the UI??? And what about the stealth eye??? Worked perfect.

 

I feel like mods already added a lot of things 1 year ago that weren't in the vanilla game. And I feel like those mods' difficulty felt better and way more natural than the artificial difficulty I keep feeling from this A18. As I said, I haven't played for a year, didn't read up on the plans or directions the devs are heading. But this is my opinion for now.

 

Greets,

 

Batman

1) I do think combat is overall improved, though "enraged" zombies need work. Especially with slower weapons (sledgehammer), RNG alone can get you stunned by an insta-enraged zombie, and hit 1-2 more times before you can move. Kinda janky, imo.

2) I do feel stamina needs a little work, but it's fairly manageable. Red Tea is your bestestestest friend ever for maintaining stamina through periods of heavy activity.

3) I guess I never noticed any issues with movement.

4) YES, YES, YES. "ThEy ReMoVeD lVl GaTeS!!111" Yeah.... sorta. They removed the level *REQUIREMENTS*, but you still need to gain an asinine amount of levels to do fairly trivial things. So, while "level gates" might have been removed, stat-gates are still in place (which make the level gate removal a fairly moot change), and the grind is still increased significantly.

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I said this didn't amount to bait and switch, but that your argument was still ignorant, regardless. So let's worry about that? People concerned that the enemy doesn't act like everyone has every reason to expect is a valid concern. My point was that it is in fact valid and that your argument otherwise is the same type of ridiculousness that would try to justify the aforementioned bait and switch.

 

I see what you're saying. TFP should be careful not to stray too far from traditional and widely accepted zombie tropes that have already been established if they want to go on calling this a zombie survival game and not upset a certain segment of zombie fans who will be angry that the "zombies" in 7 Days to Die aren't really acting like true zombies. I agree. If TFP cares about not upsetting those people who will be upset by how the zombies are acting then they should be careful how they portray those zombies.

 

The hell you weren't. He said he he essentially prefered A16 "because it didn't have [x]" issue. To which you literally, and directly responded with "Oh, but you were okay with [y]?" He in absoloutely no damned way said or implied he was okay with that. And your attempt to try to imply that he was somehow fine with that is, in case you forgot, a very dishonest attempt to derail his point. Believe it or not, it's quite possible to not be okay with [y] and still think [x] is a bigger issue and/or one worth mentioning.

 

Let's not use variables since I'm on vacation today. He said that zombies shouldn't be able to tell the difference between wood and steel. My comment was that zombies could tell the difference between a door and a wall in previous alphas and was there no complaint with that level of perception? I wasn't implying that he was or was not okay with that. I was drawing a parallel between the way things were and the way things are and wondering what the difference was? I never said he couldn't mention his dislike of them knowing the difference between wood and steel. I wanted him to clarify why it was fine for zombies to be able to know what a door was vs a wall but not fine for them to prefer a wood wall to a steel wall. This thread is all about comparing A18 to previous Alphas--and in particular A16. So how is it derailing in the slightest to bring up that in A16 zombies prioritized doors over walls whereas in A18 they prioritize weaker blocks over stronger blocks? It is one of major changes.

 

You are absolutely correct that someone might be just fine with zombies prioritizing doors over walls but not weaker blocks over stronger blocks. This whole immersion issue over how zombies behave is highly subjective after all.

 

I wouldn't call it being a "Lorax". Just capable of using the basest form of common sense. Do you touch a fire and expect it to make you cold? Obviously after this exchange, I can't quite speak for you, but most reasonable people would expect it to burn. Why? Knowledge gained from pretty universal information (and maybe a little experience, to boot). To know that people generally come in with an expectation that [this extremely recognizeable thing] will exhibit the same characteristics it does in essentially any/every other scenario doesn't require "being the Lorax of Zombie Fans." It requires basic mental processes and a willingness to use them.

 

Sorry if the Lorax comment offended. I only meant it as a reference to the book where the Lorax "speaks for the trees". You were going beyond your own personal opinion and speaking on behalf of vast vast VAST numbers of people. I would just say that fire is a real physical state of matter compared to zombies which are scifi/fantasy creatures of imagination. You are probably right that the vast majority of people have something in mind when they think of "zombie" just like they do when they think of "fire" but I bet far fewer would be enraged by deviations to a figment of the imagination than they would be by deviations from something that is actually real.

 

My own opinion is that The Fun Pimps should go wild with their creativity and have the freedom to redefine what a zombie is for their own universe and not worry about the people who will be upset by that.

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Why do you people try to "win" and bring debate tactics and war board methods into these discussions?

 

...It'd be a hell of a lot more productive without all of the attacks, passive aggressiveness and defensiveness. Just saying.

 

Fostering this kind of behavior on a forum just leads to a bad forum experience overall.

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While I see zombies that are laughably predictable and therefore, by definition, not much threat.

 

In A16 I saw zombies that were horrifically random in their attacks and thus felt visceral. Yup that's the absolute right word here. A16 zombies felt visceral: mindless, random, violent. A17 zombies feel....programmed.

 

I agree.

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I see what you're saying. TFP should be careful not to stray too far from traditional and widely accepted zombie tropes that have already been established if they want to go on calling this a zombie survival game and not upset a certain segment of zombie fans who will be angry that the "zombies" in 7 Days to Die aren't really acting like true zombies. I agree. If TFP cares about not upsetting those people who will be upset by how the zombies are acting then they should be careful how they portray those zombies.
And I see what you're saying: They don't care. Why don't you just say "they don't care"..?

 

Personally, btw, I am not "angry" or "enraged" over the 7dtd zombies not being what one actually would a zombie expect to be. I'd say that I find it "unfortunate", because the atmosphere of a zombie apocalypse is quite dear to me, and I find the ways the zombies in this game deviate from that atmosphere unwelcome.

 

Let's not use variables since I'm on vacation today. He said that zombies shouldn't be able to tell the difference between wood and steel. My comment was that zombies could tell the difference between a door and a wall in previous alphas and was there no complaint with that level of perception? I wasn't implying that he was or was not okay with that. I was drawing a parallel between the way things were and the way things are and wondering what the difference was? I never said he couldn't mention his dislike of them knowing the difference between wood and steel. I wanted him to clarify why it was fine for zombies to be able to know what a door was vs a wall but not fine for them to prefer a wood wall to a steel wall. This thread is all about comparing A18 to previous Alphas--and in particular A16. So how is it derailing in the slightest to bring up that in A16 zombies prioritized doors over walls whereas in A18 they prioritize weaker blocks over stronger blocks? It is one of major changes.

 

Of course I can't speak for others, but as I already mentioned, there are a couple of plausible reasons why zombies might go for doors. More importantly, the problem with using doors just as bait was far less prominent than the way one pretty much HAS TO utilize the zombies' psychic powers these days. If you want to build a proper base, you have to consider that they magically know all these things about your base and build accordingly.

 

Some people - I don't really know any percentages or so - just think that if you respond to someone voicing what they consider a problem without actually discussing said problem, but draw the attention away from it, by pointing out other aspects or issues or problems, is a form of derailment. When utilized intentionally, particularly in politics, this is called "whataboutism". For example recently, when I voiced criticism about the company making changes with the expressed intention to cater to new players and you wanted to discuss if it's a problem to make changes because of technical reasons. It is "a good idea" to at least also discuss the problem that is brought up or explain why you don't.

 

I haven't seen your opinion on zombie AI on horde night. Do you enjoy building bases around forseeing how zombies will navigate through an obstacle course..?

 

You are absolutely correct that someone might be just fine with zombies prioritizing doors over walls but not weaker blocks over stronger blocks. This whole immersion issue over how zombies behave is highly subjective after all.
Do you think we should just not discuss any of these things at all? That seems to be a reoccuring angle of yours.

 

Sorry if the Lorax comment offended. I only meant it as a reference to the book where the Lorax "speaks for the trees". You were going beyond your own personal opinion and speaking on behalf of vast vast VAST numbers of people. I would just say that fire is a real physical state of matter compared to zombies which are scifi/fantasy creatures of imagination. You are probably right that the vast majority of people have something in mind when they think of "zombie" just like they do when they think of "fire" but I bet far fewer would be enraged by deviations to a figment of the imagination than they would be by deviations from something that is actually real.

 

My own opinion is that The Fun Pimps should go wild with their creativity and have the freedom to redefine what a zombie is for their own universe and not worry about the people who will be upset by that.

I agree that the devs should go wild with their creativity, but if you wanted intelligent enemies, why do you call them "zombies"? Because it is indeed a true fact that the VAAAAAAAST majority of people understand a fairly certain thing under a "zombie". Being intelligent (or feeling pain) is usually none of them. So why use zombies, when your creative vision is something else?

 

I think, though, that it is not so much a creative vision. It's more a technical problem, that is being solved in a, let's say, less-than-ideal manner. That comes with noticable flaws and new problems. Such as that the zombies are now way too intelligent. Which is not a problem because of expectations, but because it's just not the same gameplay anymore. Was that intended? Was it the plan all along? Or is it actually a flaw the devs accept because they can't solve their problems without introducing such flaws..?

Edited by Kubikus (see edit history)

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Why do you people try to "win" and bring debate tactics and war board methods into these discussions?

 

...It'd be a hell of a lot more productive without all of the attacks, passive aggressiveness and defensiveness. Just saying.

 

Fostering this kind of behavior on a forum just leads to a bad forum experience overall.

Not quite sure what exactly you mean, but tbh, when I see someone in charge of enforcing the rules using such tactics or allowing them, I kinda feel invited to participate accordingly, and so I do, cuz I enjoy that stuff. It's kind of a battle of the wits, and, if practised mindfully, can lead to great results. When an opinion or theory can stand up against all such tactics, it might be sound.

 

When it's unwanted, that's fine as well, but it seems to be normal round here, does it not?

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