Fortitude - Garbage for Damage

[Sythalin]

My buddies and I have been testing out all the pure stat damage builds for viability and, as everyone has probably figured when it was announced, going knuckles is pure garbage. It needs either a stagger chance increase or damage increase to compensate for the the high risk of putting yourself in such close range of zeds. Even with STEEL Knuckles, Fort 10, and Brawler 5, the damage is the same as a 0 stat/skill WOODEN club and the knockdown/stagger/stun chance is equivalent to every other "safer" weapon.

 

If TFP want knuckles to be worth anything, some reworking needs to be done, otherwise they may as well just completely remove it again because it's not viable for anything.

[Orclover]

I have gotten to knuckles 4 now at threat level 130 dealing with glowing cop zombies. Knuckles are effectively worthless at this point. Guns or die. Been thinking about drinking the fergettin potion and respeccing as hammer, at least that is always viable.

[tricorius]

I think the idea is that you will take blows. So I think max armor (and associated perks to bring down penalties) is assumed as well. This helps, but the build doesn’t scale really well as game stage scales (or if you start at higher difficulties).

[Orclover]

Its really pretty crazy even with full specced full steel armor. Even the regen effect of specced out health at 1 health per 4 seconds is basically worthless. You are taking soooo much damage (in melee fights) in a short period of time that you either pop medkit every 20 seconds or die. Fifteen health a minute is absolutely meaningless at that point and putting more than 3 points into the skill is not worth it. Just use it to mitigate perm damage. Compare that to even 3 points into 2handed hammers, you simply stop taking damage with the right rhythm, if you are not getting hit you don't stress the rest because the enemies are spending all their time getting back up constantly. Add in the completely lack of range and fist weaps become effectively worthless at end game, which is really unfortunate because I really wanted to like them.

 

But you know what the worst thing is? That #(*#@!*& burning mod. If you use it, and it would be good, you cant see. Period. The flames cover up the screen and drive you crazy. They need to tone down the flame effect by 90% for visibility.

[tricorius]

Agreed. I generally stop the Regen perk at the level it starts healing max health. More is generally a waste. I don’t consider that trait an “in combat” mitigation. I consider it a “heal over time after combat” type of thing.

 

The stagger, stun, knockdown, and rag doll chance from the perk is nice. It as the game stage scales it is tough to keep up damage on tougher zombies. And as the crowd of zombies increases it is even less viable. Of course, you have machine guns in the tress to help when things hit the fan. But it would be nice not to have to feel *quite* so reliant on the machine guns and feel the perks in Brawler were a bit more effective as the game wages on.

 

Edit: or maybe scaling knuckle damage a bit better or something. Not sure.

[Orclover]

Yea needs more Crowd Control, or a nutshot for the two end game zeds.

[Fix]

I had the exact opposite opinion when I played fort. The m60 is amazing, and try drinking a beer or moonshine with the knuckles and watch all the heads explode.

[Maynard69]

Havent tried it yet, but I was under the assumption that knuckle build is pretty much dependant on getting a beer farm going or producing moonshine (or buying out all the beer) I mean, you would have to be drunk to take on zombies with your fists, it make sense. lol

[Scyris]

I had the exact opposite opinion when I played fort. The m60 is amazing, and try drinking a beer or moonshine with the knuckles and watch all the heads explode.

 

I think they are talking more about the melee side of Fort, which is true, the only really viable melee weapon in a18 is sledge and club, the rest just don't come close in terms of damage or useful secondary abilites. My current dead is dead game is on warior and my main weapon is sledge and shotguns, I can kill radiated zombies all day with a sledge with no real problems, barely get hit either. Sledge usually knocks things on their ass on the first hit, including radiated zombies, and a zombie on the floor is pretty much a free kill. Its also nice to power attack and watch sledge knockdown like 3-5 zombies at once at times. Other than sledge/clubs melee in a18 is pretty bad, the rest just lack the damage and/or the useful secondarys. Brawling sucks till a high tier steel knuckle, the other 3 stat weapons are kinda garbage.

 

On the new default which is adventurer difficulty the player actually gets a damage bonus vs zombies, while zombies only hit for 75% of their base damage. This is why the weapons are so unbalanced, on Adv difficulty I am sure anything works fine. Maybe on nomad too, but on the higher ones? it really shows that other than sledge/club the other melee weapons just aren't good enough to be viable. Then again its kinda always been like this, sledge/club as far as I can remember back when I started in a9 or 10, has always been the goto for melee as its just better than the other options.

 

Now TFP could remedy this by nerfing sledge/clubs, but that'd be the lazy way out, itd be much better off if they buffed the other weapons so they become viable.

[Maynard69]

I think they are talking more about the melee side of Fort, which is true, the only really viable melee weapon in a18 is sledge and club, the rest just don't come close in terms of damage or useful secondary abilites. My current dead is dead game is on warior and my main weapon is sledge and shotguns, I can kill radiated zombies all day with a sledge with no real problems, barely get hit either. Sledge usually knocks things on their ass on the first hit, including radiated zombies, and a zombie on the floor is pretty much a free kill. Its also nice to power attack and watch sledge knockdown like 3-5 zombies at once at times. Other than sledge/clubs melee in a18 is pretty bad, the rest just lack the damage and/or the useful secondarys. Brawling sucks till a high tier steel knuckle, the other 3 stat weapons are kinda garbage.

 

On the new default which is adventurer difficulty the player actually gets a damage bonus vs zombies, while zombies only hit for 75% of their base damage. This is why the weapons are so unbalanced, on Adv difficulty I am sure anything works fine. Maybe on nomad too, but on the higher ones? it really shows that other than sledge/club the other melee weapons just aren't good enough to be viable. Then again its kinda always been like this, sledge/club as far as I can remember back when I started in a9 or 10, has always been the goto for melee as its just better than the other options.

 

Now TFP could remedy this by nerfing sledge/clubs, but that'd be the lazy way out, itd be much better off if they buffed the other weapons so they become viable.

 

Good feedback, incoming 12 damage steel sledges LOL

[Slingblade2040]

lol no. I've done shotgun messiah, cracked a book and the sham food factory with no issues using knuckles only and no guns.

 

full 10 fortitude, brawler 5, healing factor 5, pain tolerance 5. tier 6 steel armor with mods and havent had to many issues at all killing radiated cops and doing this all at game stage 140+ on nomad difficulty.

 

the only time issues come up from taking to much damage and I gotta get away is when 6+ radiated zombies are beating on me. if it's 4 I can deal with with no issues and if it's 5 it's doable but would consider healing if I ran into another large group otherwise I just heal up with healing factor.

[Sythalin]

lol no. I've done shotgun messiah, cracked a book and the sham food factory with no issues using knuckles only and no guns.

 

full 10 fortitude, brawler 5, healing factor 5, pain tolerance 5. tier 6 steel armor with mods and havent had to many issues at all killing radiated cops and doing this all at game stage 140+ on nomad difficulty.

 

the only time issues come up from taking to much damage and I gotta get away is when 6+ radiated zombies are beating on me. if it's 4 I can deal with with no issues and if it's 5 it's doable but would consider healing if I ran into another large group otherwise I just heal up with healing factor.

 

So your counterpoint is to have every skill/perk maxed, best possible armor with the best possible mods, at the 2nd lowest difficulty in the game (I don't count scavenger, a cat walking across a keyboard can succeed at that setting)? No offense, but maybe you should try turning up some settings so that late GS is actually challenging. So far all you've proven is that even at lower difficulty, you have to have everything maxed to be viable.

 

I promise you, people are clearing the same things you are maxed out with half the gear and levels by using clubs/hammers.

[tricorius]

On the new default which is adventurer difficulty the player actually gets a damage bonus vs zombies, while zombies only hit for 75% of their base damage. This is why the weapons are so unbalanced, on Adv difficulty I am sure anything works fine. Maybe on nomad too, but on the higher ones?.

 

I wonder if this is just straight up damage scaling or if it is a bit more complex and effects armor ratings, etc. with the lower base damage of the knuckles it makes some sense of base armor on zombies also gets scaled. I love the rapid attack of knuckles and knives but armor is not your friend with the lower base damage weapons.

 

Edit: thinking about it more if it is just scaling the base damage then armor values would impact the calculation biased against low base-damage weapons. I haven’t seen the code, but I imagine there is potential significant difference in scaling the base damage before the calculations vs scaling the actual total damage after calculations.

[Limdood]

I played a fort build straight through to glowing cops.

 

On default difficulty, it's AMAZING....aggro a whole room, move to a choke point and start normal swinging....your fists hit so many zombies, and with so many proc abilities it's like a slapstick comedy skit watching the zombies fall all over themselves. The crowd control of the knuckles is amazing (why are you at gamestage 130 and your main melee style is only 4/5?), and when you need to dart in and kill a spitting cop, you have reliable enough dismemberment to sprint in, normal attack the head several times, and sprint out to another bottleneck.

 

Natural healing, plus bandages, plus fortifying grip, combined with the damage reduction perk and steel armor, and the crowd control of the knuckles, and actually standing in a marginally intelligent spot instead of surrounded is more than sufficient protection - and 5/5 fists, using NORMAL attack (power attack is for solo fights and early levels) rapid firing 6 different procs Brawling 2, brawling 3, brawling 4, brawling 5, weighted head, burning shaft) on several zombies at once with every single super fast swing can handle most crowds easily....unless you decide to fight in a wide open field.

 

I felt like an unkillable tank...which seems exactly the point of the fortitude build.

 

Now, if you read this and say "of course you felt invincible, it was on default difficulty!" - well, that's the point. The game is balanced for default difficulty. You start changing the parameters of the game, and of COURSE some items will outperform others. Set player block damage to 300%, loot amount to 300%...and I'll bet those ammo-chewing M60s look even MORE attractive. Set difficulty to minimum and zombies to jog at most with loot % 25% and the hunting rifle really shines!

 

it's not viable for anything.

I can attest the fortitude build is PERFECTLY viable....on default settings it accomplishes EXACTLY what it implies that it will - you are a walking tank, and you outlast your foes, and all those stagger/knockdown/ragdoll/beheadings you were promised absolutely happen. If you want to play the game on the wildly different settings allowed in vanilla (or modded outside of vanilla), then maybe don't expect everything that works on default to work exactly as well. If you are already playing on default, then try 1) actually maxing the skill, and 2, fighting in a setting and manner that utilizes the particular strengths of the melee style you are currently favoring.

[Ghostlight]

Fortitude build is for Machine Guns. What is this "melee combat" you mentioned?

[Kage848]

So your counterpoint is to have every skill/perk maxed, best possible armor with the best possible mods, at the 2nd lowest difficulty in the game (I don't count scavenger, a cat walking across a keyboard can succeed at that setting)? No offense, but maybe you should try turning up some settings so that late GS is actually challenging. So far all you've proven is that even at lower difficulty, you have to have everything maxed to be viable.

 

I promise you, people are clearing the same things you are maxed out with half the gear and levels by using clubs/hammers.

 

I have skimmed through this thread so far. I got the impression people think the brawler build should be buffed. After reading this sounds like clubs and hammers should be nerfed.

 

Melee should always be a super hard, almost impossible, way to deal with late game. Should always require a full spec against the hardest zombies. Sounds like str is op and fort is balanced.

 

I play 1 difficulty above default. I'm low gs, like 60 or so. About have speced into fort but I'm loving it so far. We will see at gs 120 lol.

[Kalen]

I have skimmed through this thread so far. I got the impression people think the brawler build should be buffed. After reading this sounds like clubs and hammers should be nerfed.

 

Melee should always be a super hard, almost impossible, way to deal with late game. Should always require a full spec against the hardest zombies. Sounds like str is op and fort is balanced.

 

I play 1 difficulty above default. I'm low gs, like 60 or so. About have speced into fort but I'm loving it so far. We will see at gs 120 lol.

 

I've done a str build, a fort build, and a per build up to about level 30 on each so far. I agree, strength was by far the best and perception the worst. Still early, and I'd like to try each of them into later game stages, but I'm not there yet.

[Onarr]

I've done a str build, a fort build, and a per build up to about level 30 on each so far. I agree, strength was by far the best and perception the worst. Still early, and I'd like to try each of them into later game stages, but I'm not there yet.

 

I do agrees that perception does feel a bit off lategame. It relies heavily on One shot one kill, which is pretty hard against irradiated ferals. Guess you need to use explosives at that point

[Orclover]

I do agrees that perception does feel a bit off lategame. It relies heavily on One shot one kill, which is pretty hard against irradiated ferals. Guess you need to use explosives at that point

 

I loved hunting rifles and sniper until day 80ish 140 threat horde nights, and they are just not doing it. I'm sure some guys can land a headshot ever squeeze but for me with 32 glowing and exploding zeds on the screen all sprinting like crazy there is just no way to get anything but center mass consistently. Really irritated with being stuck with M60 or death as my only options.

[Maynard69]

I have skimmed through this thread so far. I got the impression people think the brawler build should be buffed. After reading this sounds like clubs and hammers should be nerfed.

 

Melee should always be a super hard, almost impossible, way to deal with late game. Should always require a full spec against the hardest zombies. Sounds like str is op and fort is balanced.

 

I play 1 difficulty above default. I'm low gs, like 60 or so. About have speced into fort but I'm loving it so far. We will see at gs 120 lol.

 

I have been playing only Survivalist and Insane. Sledge is pretty good but i dont think its OP. You kinda have to go deep-ish into multiple attributes to make it good mid-late game since it eats stamina hard, which puts you behind for awhile and you might have to miss out on some stuff that is needed early. (and maybe your preferred gun too)

[Maynard69]

I loved hunting rifles and sniper until day 80ish 140 threat horde nights, and they are just not doing it. I'm sure some guys can land a headshot ever squeeze but for me with 32 glowing and exploding zeds on the screen all sprinting like crazy there is just no way to get anything but center mass consistently. Really irritated with being stuck with M60 or death as my only options.

 

Are you using choke points, traps, and AP ammo? Are you perked high? I think that is kinda needed. But I havent gotten much further than you as far as gamestage since I have been restarting with every new build.

[Morloc]

THIS:

 

But you know what the worst thing is? That #(*#@!*& burning mod. If you use it, and it would be good, you cant see. Period. The flames cover up the screen and drive you crazy. They need to tone down the flame effect by 90% for visibility.

 

 

Agreed. It's WAAAY too bright/distracting.

 

 

 

-Morloc

[Scyris]

THIS:

 

 

 

 

Agreed. It's WAAAY too bright/distracting.

 

 

 

-Morloc

 

I don't even use the mod due to how bright and distracting it is, I also hate the color of the light it gives off. I generally never use the mod.. ever.

[HungryZombie]

I loved hunting rifles and sniper until day 80ish 140 threat horde nights, and they are just not doing it. I'm sure some guys can land a headshot ever squeeze but for me with 32 glowing and exploding zeds on the screen all sprinting like crazy there is just no way to get anything but center mass consistently. Really irritated with being stuck with M60 or death as my only options.

 

I believe perception has the explosive perks in the tree. Leads me to think you're not meant to snipe 140 threat hordes but blow them up then snipe the stragglers.

[Slingblade2040]

So your counterpoint is to have every skill/perk maxed, best possible armor with the best possible mods, at the 2nd lowest difficulty in the game (I don't count scavenger, a cat walking across a keyboard can succeed at that setting)? No offense, but maybe you should try turning up some settings so that late GS is actually challenging. So far all you've proven is that even at lower difficulty, you have to have everything maxed to be viable.

 

I promise you, people are clearing the same things you are maxed out with half the gear and levels by using clubs/hammers.

 

why would I turn up settings even more just to stroke my ego? Nomad is fine enough and having radiated zombies spawning in almost every room in PoIs like shotgun messiah and sham factory is fine.

 

the idea that oh settings should be bumped up for more of a challenge is great if this was a strategy game but it isnt. all higher difficulty settings do is increase the damage you take whole nerfing the damage it's just for ego boosting.

 

fortitude is fine since it's mainly a tank build and the brawler perk stuns and knocks out zombies like crazy and has a fast attack speed.

 

if they are cleaning them out using half the stuff I am that's fine on higher difficulty settings then good for them. hopefully they aren't spamming heals and using turrets or cheap methods to make it easier. which I'm sure most of them are.

 

brawler is fine everyone just likes to cry about their weapon not being as op as the other's. I don't expect a knuckle weapon to be doing the same damage as a spear, sledgehammer or even a modded up club.

 

if you want damage just get a gun and you're fine. it's not very difficult to get a ton of ammo now anyways.