What is wrong with melee?

[njugul]

but the melee really just doesn't feel right at all anymore.

 

Agreed. Got a stone sledgehammer as a new character and went to a zombie and "hit" it. I was confused if I actually hit it or missed. Then I "hit" it several times again and eventually the zombie fell down. At no point did I really know if I actually landed the blow or not.

Feedback on hits is awful.

[iicecube]

The melee seem well prepare and i tend to run spear which is even better this time.

Can reach and throw but just the sockets item for spear is kinda little

[Viktoriusiii]

The melee seem well prepare and i tend to run spear which is even better this time.

Can reach and throw but just the sockets item for spear is kinda little

 

try another weapon then.

The spear is new and probably not f'ed up because animation and glancing blow were developed paralel to each other.

[Aldranon]

With a club I sometimes will "charge" (shift key+w) and power attack their head, before the zombie can begin to react. Its very satisfying as you can also jump back (still holding shift +s) if they didn't fall down.

 

Moving with the club this way feels more like RL melee, even though I don't put points into perking clubs.

[Scyris]

TBF the hits that are "missing" might not actually all be missing. It might be lack of feedback making you think it missed. Or things like the block breaking underneath the zombie when he is ragdoll/stunned makes it seem like you made no contact with the zombie.

 

But then sometimes during the zombies swing animation or other animation it seems like you 100% hit perfect but no sound or feedback so who knows if there was actually a hit or not. Either way though there is something not quite right about it.

 

I agree that melee is 100% more fun than it has been with what they added, but there is still some issues.

 

Oh trust me I know, where I am in my warrior difficulty dead is dead game, I 1 shot normal zombies other than fatties with headshots on normal swings, my power attack headshots can one shot some ferals/normal fat zombies. Been many times I should have landed that headshot on that zombie and killed it, but it missed entirely even with the crosshair locked on its head. It also was within the range of the sledge so its not that either, though they did reduce it some, was 2.9 in a17.4 2.6 in a18.

[Scyris]

Melee has always been badly coded in 7DtD. In previous alpha's you also had to find weird "sweet spots" to hit, they didn't correspond with the visual feedback on screen at all. It seems like it's been exaggerated in A18.

 

It feels so dumb having a huge sledgehammer just whiffing through zombies that are right in your face, trying to chew it off. Barely being able to hit a crawler without it biting your ankles off is also weird.

 

Like previous alphas, once you figure out where to keep your crosshairs while the animation plays etc., it becomes usable, but it never feels right. I always end up just using guns because they're way more reliable and fun than the other options, this game really needs to flesh out it's first person combat if it wants to have "builds" that are all viable and fun.

 

The weapons themselves need some work to, other than sledge and club the rest of them just aren't really viable later game especially on higher difficulties, due to lack of raw damage and due to lack of useful secondary effects. Sledge/club is so good because it knocks down things easly, and a zombie on the floor is a easy target, or is taken out of the fight for a few seconds so you can focus on something else. Spears can't do this reliably unless you throw it (which imo is a really stupid mechanic who would throw their weapon away?), spears have virtually no flinch/stun/knockdown on normal swings, stun baton is just a complete joke in every way, fists, well they'd rank 3rd for a decent weapon after sledge, then clubs, then comes fists, its main downside is its very short range and low damage till steel knuckles, and the fact its knockdowns etc aren't as reluiable as he sledge or club. Not to mention playing on warrior+ that first fist weapon you can make is frigging terrible, it has 8 damage, and takes SO many hits above nomad to kill anything.

 

Knife has a few issues, no knockdown, can perma flinchlock things but requires precise aim'timing, to fast you get hit, to slow you get hit. Its deep cuts perk is also bugged, the bleed doesn't stack right. 1 bleed with lv 3 deep cuts is 1 hp/s, power attack says it stacks 4, so you'd think it'd 4 hp/second bleed right? wrong, its 2 hp/s like it seems to be capped at that.

[Guest]

Been many times I should have landed that headshot on that zombie and killed it, but it missed entirely even with the crosshair locked on its head.

 

I think what happens in these cases is the head hitbox moving out from under your crosshair a frame or two before you're supposed to connect. The zombie animations are very jerky (seem to play at low fps regardless of refresh rate) and for some reason the devs decided to give most of them exaggerated head movements on top of that. Makes for a very frustrating experience together with this style of "all or nothing" hit detection.

 

I've been mentioning this for several alphas though.. I'm pretty sure TFP just don't know how to do it, or the engine is just not cut out for melee combat. Or maybe it's me, but that wouldn't explain why other games don't seem to suffer from this issue.

[Aldranon]

Yeah, the zombies have gone to the "Mohamed Ali" Boxing school.

 

Just waiting on the "Boxers shuffle" when they hit you. Is that A19?

[njugul]

I think what happens in these cases is the head hitbox moving out from under your crosshair a frame or two before you're supposed to connect. The zombie animations are very jerky (seem to play at low fps regardless of refresh rate) and for some reason the devs decided to give most of them exaggerated head movements on top of that. Makes for a very frustrating experience together with this style of "all or nothing" hit detection.

 

Can you not show hitboxes? I saw one video some days ago where the guy had hit(?)boxes for the zombies when he tested things.

[Synvastian]

Yeah, the zombies have gone to the "Mohamed Ali" Boxing school.

 

Just waiting on the "Boxers shuffle" when they hit you. Is that A19?

 

As a brawler, I welcome it XD I don't have too many issues with melee, I tend to wait for the first "wild" swing they do and power attack the face to get the no infection ability, and the usual knockdown or stun, then I just normal punch to death, with groups its the same, just pick and choosing who to hit and looking behind me when I go "ground and pound" (knockdown and normal punch until its dead)

[snatchedalmond]

I think the hitboxes on melee have always been janky as ♥♥♥♥ but players who have been around for a while have adjusted to how bad they are and new players can't believe how bad they are. This is why some people are fine with it - so many using sledge since day 1 Pepega posts there are in contrast to these "what the hell is wrong" posts.

[Viktoriusiii]

I think the hitboxes on melee have always been janky as ♥♥♥♥ but players who have been around for a while have adjusted to how bad they are and new players can't believe how bad they are. This is why some people are fine with it - so many using sledge since day 1 Pepega posts there are in contrast to these "what the hell is wrong" posts.

 

Since I play since D1 of the steam launch, I kinda doubt that he played for longer than me... and if so not by much ^^

They changed 4 things:

1. they reduced the range by 30 centimeters, which feels like miles as Z's have like 2m range on their arms.

2. zombies hit preemptively now. Which for close combat is nice since you can rush in after you baited them, but slow weapons like the sledge needs a short warm up time so it is always a battle of range to not get hit

3. glancing blows were introduced which somehow completely f'ed up the targeting system of older weapons (so probably not the stunbaton baseball bat and spear) so I can only hit Z's reliably 50% of the time.

Even if my crosshair is right on the head it just misses.

4. rage means if you hit a wrongly counted glancing blow they will sprint and you have low stamina to run away.

 

 

Short followup:

Played this day now on lower difficulty and non running Z's and I can confirm:

Even like that my hits are very VERY inconsistent. It doesnt matter since Z's on Warrior don't deal ANY noticable damage and since they don't run they never get a hit on me since when I miss, I can simply backtrack. So on this low difficulty I understand the first guys post. Because Z's are so weak it doesnt matter if its inconsistent or bad.

But this is why on run and insane the sledgehammer is useless. Every hit counts. And if I miss 50% for no reason, I'm dead faster than I can switch into god mode!

 

 

PLEASE fix it.

Freshmint has posted 2 excellent videos showing my exact problem. Don't release A18.0 in this broken state <3 thanks

[HungryZombie]

I think what happens in these cases is the head hitbox moving out from under your crosshair a frame or two before you're supposed to connect. The zombie animations are very jerky (seem to play at low fps regardless of refresh rate) and for some reason the devs decided to give most of them exaggerated head movements on top of that. Makes for a very frustrating experience together with this style of "all or nothing" hit detection.

 

I've been mentioning this for several alphas though.. I'm pretty sure TFP just don't know how to do it, or the engine is just not cut out for melee combat. Or maybe it's me, but that wouldn't explain why other games don't seem to suffer from this issue.

 

Maybe this is how they want it?

[Viktoriusiii]

Maybe this is how they want it?

 

If I have a massive sledgehammer and just start swinging from left to right while you are 1m in front of me...

How much exactly do you successfully dodge by wiggling your head up and down?

Right

That is why they implemented the glancing blow. But if it doesnt register anyways bc the arc is wrong...

[snatchedalmond]

Maybe this is how they want it?

 

Then I guess they're not incompetent, they're just retarded.

[InSanity]

In previous alphas I always played on warrior and typically went sledge with the occasional playthrough using the machete as far as melee and had no problems taking out most any zombies and clearing pois with those. In this alpha I've so far found that while the sledge is still king as far as damage and knives are still perfect for stamina efficient killing, there have been several changes which make the early game especially difficult. I quickly found that zombies preemptively swing at you which is easily avoided but the range of melee for the player is now much shorter, and for the early game where stamina is a very exhaustible commodity that means that you either take a hit or two and use knives or use sledge and run out of stamina in only a handful of swings. The spear is decent but when you've got multiple enemies it doesn't compare as far as base damage goes considering the only way to do decent damage is get rid of your weapon which obviously is suicide when facing groups. Overall I enjoy that early game is harder yet I also believe that the range of player melee should be made somewhat longer and stamina should be somewhat less easily exhausted otherwise it makes getting hit and possibly even dying quite inevitable especially for newer players.

[M.C.]

Then I guess they're not incompetent, they're just retarded.

 

I believe the word you are looking for is "arrogant".

[Saera]

I can't use the sledge, I am horrible with it. I just can not time the swing right. However, I know it works just fine cause hubby and son use it , and very effectively.

Now baseball bats, mmm yes. My fave melee weapon. Hits the spot everytime, with a satisfying THUNK!!

Only one problem with it, if I continue to yell out batter up!!! every time I swing, there might be a divorce in my future LOL.

[Freshmint]

Freshmint has posted 2 excellent videos showing my exact problem. Don't release A18.0 in this broken state <3 thanks

 

Cheers for saying this. I've posted on the dev diary, the bugs section, this thread and the steam forums. How do we know if they have acknowledged it and are looking to fix it?

 

Its night and day the glancing system has been introduced in a slightly buggy state and thats what experimental is for.

 

* It hits but misses targets on the same swing due to its slow updating

* The main center point of the crosshairs hit is sometimes at random ignored due to glancing swings and how it updates regardless of multi hit

* Random range off effect and inconsistencies

* The invisible swinging arc does not match the weapons movement and overshoots

* Glancing blows register on a flat axis across the screen rather than on a 3D plane that matches the animation(no depth)

* Melee weapons have no occlusion when hitting targets so a hit travels through a target like electricity and hits one behind or beside

* No interrupt animations to know when landing a hit.

 

And of course videos on page 2 to prove it.

 

Its a reasonably decent problem that needs to be address. After seeing many changes in animations over many alphas I feel like they are finally starting to look complete so props to the devs animator and his work.

 

Zombies I believe will be getting an update in A19 and they are also doing bandits. It was never viable and ready many alphas ago because it just wasnt ready and good enough to implement. Hitboxes may be improved at the same time.

[Freshmint]

I can't use the sledge, I am horrible with it. I just can not time the swing right. However, I know it works just fine cause hubby and son use it , and very effectively.

Now baseball bats, mmm yes. My fave melee weapon. Hits the spot everytime, with a satisfying THUNK!!

Only one problem with it, if I continue to yell out batter up!!! every time I swing, there might be a divorce in my future LOL.

 

The baseball bats normal attack hits halfway down the bat and doesn't feel right and has no weight behind it.

 

Every weapon needs to feel like your hitting a baseball of a tee. If you air swing momentum takes you through it, but if you hit you feel a clunk and weight from the ball. Weapons right now have this, but only if you hit where its supposed to be dead center and when it matches the animation. There was a slowing effect on a hit added in A17 that still exists in A18 but it only works on weapons that have a full follow through. The machete is the only one I can think of as all the others now finish on the crosshair.

[Heafus]

Completely agree, something is off with melee.

[Freshmint]

Can anyone reproduce the results i showed in the video?

[Ghostlight]

The weapons themselves need some work to, other than sledge and club the rest of them just aren't really viable later game especially on higher difficulties, due to lack of raw damage and due to lack of useful secondary effects. Sledge/club is so good because it knocks down things easly, and a zombie on the floor is a easy target, or is taken out of the fight for a few seconds so you can focus on something else. Spears can't do this reliably unless you throw it (which imo is a really stupid mechanic who would throw their weapon away?), spears have virtually no flinch/stun/knockdown on normal swings, stun baton is just a complete joke in every way, fists, well they'd rank 3rd for a decent weapon after sledge, then clubs, then comes fists, its main downside is its very short range and low damage till steel knuckles, and the fact its knockdowns etc aren't as reluiable as he sledge or club.

 

I agree with you completely but just wanted to add...

 

Baseball Bat >> Re-enforced Metal Club.

 

My tier 2 (found) Bat with 1 mod does much more damage than my tier 6 Club with 4 mods and is much more effective

 

Wish I could find a better one.

[Guest]

Can anyone reproduce the results i showed in the video?

 

I have no recording software set up, but I can confirm that glancing blows mess with the main hit. It happens when zombies are lying prone after being knocked down and you try to smash their head with a sledge; you hit the floor under their head for full damage and only glance their head.

[Nucleus24]

The animations just seem...off.

 

The way the weapons are swung doesn't make any sense, It's like I'm trying to tap something 2 feet from my head tip of the baseball bat, instead of trying to swing for a home run with the zombies head. The tip of the weapons stays super close to you.

 

Killing floor 2 and Left 4 Dead 2 do melee weapons right. In 7 days to die it just seems off.