Bladed combat in 17.3

[Morloc]

Honestly the slower backward movement paired together with the new faster zombie movements of jog or run make close quarter fighting a lot more thrilling and challenging.

 

More thrilling? My dog is a nervous wreck!

 

 

 

-Morloc

[Roland]

2. anyone with half a brain looks backwards in a quick glance ever second or so to make sure they don't trip over something. Or run into a damn cactus.

 

CAN we trip in the game? No. What if we aren't in the desert? There goes the cactus excuse too...

 

Maybe if we could trip over rocks, bushes, cinder blocks, trash piles, uneven ground,.....ANYTHING AT ALL-- then running backwards would have a balancing factor to it and wouldn't be completely OP. Do you think the player base would be happy about tripping over everything in their way unless they took the time to turn around and look?

 

They might decide in those circumstances to just turn around and run forward away from the zombies which is what we currently have.

[xXBadDreamXx]

removed

[Minandreas]

It's a hard nut to crack, because if they're too slow, well then...."experience pinatas", if they're too fast; then... "Yakety Sax Funeral". In the outdoors, you've got options, but in a dungeon-crawl if you agro a few runners, you're in trouble quick.

 

Nets? Bolas?

 

 

-Morloc

 

Absolutely.

 

To be honest, things like bolas would actually be fun as HELL if well implemented. Like, make swapping weapons faster and more fluid, make it so you have to aim Bolas at an enemies legs to make it work. Make it so they can and will struggle free from them/break out of them with time, scaling on how hard a zombie it is.

 

But to go right along with that, you could kind of get the same effect if they just made it so things like leg shots were actually reliable. Like, if I cap a zombie in the leg while it's sprinting at me, have them faceplant. Giving me an opportunity to go in and smash its head with my sledge. Or place some barbed wire or a landmine.

 

Right now there's basically no interactive ways of defending against sprinting zombies. Because while you CAN dismember them, and you CAN knock them over. You can't reliably. It's RNG. So obviously, not letting them come near you in the first place is the only real logical play.

 

I was really hoping that power attacks would just be as simple as a big sweeping swing that, with a medium or larger weapon, would do not a lot of damage but knock everything in front of you on to its ass. Melee becomes sort of a crowd control style player. But instead we got... Use more stamina to hit harder...? I still don't see the point of it really.

[Roland]

morloc i didnt personally attack you or mention your name or anything so why did you feel a need to personally attack me for what i wrote? you basically just called me a whiney bitch. awesome. this is the kind of crap im talking about and happens anytime someone has an alternate opinion that doesnt jive with the fanboys and Roland you encourage this crap. I am done posting here

 

You are the one who opened the door with the "fanboy" name calling. You don't get to post your opinions in an echo chamber. People who have a differing opinion do get to voice them regardless of your desire for them to stay silent. I edited both your post and Morloc's response so nobody is calling anyone any names. I do not encourage name calling. I encourage well thought out arguments and counterpoints. You were the one who encouraged "this crap" by being the first to fling it in here. Assuming that someone who has a different opinion than you hasn't really thought it out well and is merely a fanboy and then posting that assumption is going to get you what you got. So I suggest sticking to the arguments themselves.

[RestInPieces]

Haha you killed your very own can we drop this "but in real life" facade? Argument immediate because you went on to compare things in real life.

 

That was not an argument, it was a characterization - the "argument" is the rest of the post which is demonstrating that real life comparisons are pointless, silly and anyone can invoke an example which suits their agenda. And your agenda is nothing else other what I mentioned in the end:

Some people just don't want risky combat and that's just that.

- which is evident, because the only realism concerns you have, serve towards making gameplay more convenient/easy, conveniently ignoring all the rest "realism" inconsistencies.

 

As someone who was a gymnast for years, I can tell you that yes parkour experts are damn close to a world class gymnasts in their ability to be agile and jump and run. The point I am making is backwards is purposely nerfed. There is no logical reason to restrict your speed so much except to make it more difficult for difficulties sake.

 

Your extensive gymnast knowledge should also include the things I mentioned, like a person's stamina/muscle recovery not magically replenishing in real life, as opposed to the game. But I don't hear you complaining about that.

 

Additionally, how many players will ever achieve a lvl 5 in Parkour? I would say less than 5% of people playing. The vast majority of people won't even lvl it up much, let alone to lvl 5.

 

Is that number a product of a survey? Please share. It's already pretty useful as a perk - a game-changer even. It's just that agility isn't worth it very much atm.

 

1. have you ever watched world class parkour? They are gymnasts. The whole point of a lvl 5 being powerful is to reflect that fact.

 

2. anyone with half a brain looks backwards in a quick glance ever second or so to make sure they don't trip over something. Or run into a damn cactus.

 

3. I don't understand what you mean by this. Movement speed drastically changes based on the slope in game play. Seems like you misspoke.

 

4. Your character speed and agility are drastically influenced by certain health related things like a hurt leg so what was your point again?

 

5. Your stamina is very much like real life. You need to rest to get full stamina back because exertion diminish total stamina. again, I think you misspoke.

 

1. Seeing your love for survival simulators, as you say below, shouldn't your concern be about the other countless inconsistencies which don't reflect the fact that your character is human, first and foremost, rather than a world class gymnast?

2. Funny that you say that, since you also want to be hitting/kiting a zombie while walking backwards - shouldn't you also complain that you are able to do that since you have to be looking backwards every second?

3. No I didn't misspoke. Speed/stamina usage is the same on every kind of terrain in the game. Rumble, sand, snow, bushes etc. Also, have you ever climbed a steep slope in real life or what?

4. My point is that as a gymnast you should already know that a broken leg is not the only health condition that one can have. If you are near death, bleeding, in great pain etc in real life you wouldn't be able to run as fast, jump as high, attack etc etc. So spare me your convenient real life examples.

5. Again, it's weird that you think I misspoke, since as a gymnast you should know that without sleep, your stamina doesn't replenish in real life. You can't run 24/7 on food, water and coffee - common gymnast knowledge cough cough.

 

Not entirely sure what the point of your post was, but you either misspoke or were trolling because all of your points don't hold water.

 

This is a survival simulation. We should expect certain core aspects of it to be analogous to real life or it diminishes the "simulation" aspect drastically.

 

As said above, it's funny that the only realistic aspects you care about, serve the purpose of making gameplay more trivial and how conveniently you ignore anything else that would make gameplay more harsh. You *definitely* care about the game being a survival simulation and you are *totally* not trying to just support your point with a rather cringey excuse for an argument.

 

If you train a couple hours a day for 2 weeks running backwards, I bet you would literally be 50-100% faster running backwards than you are today. This isn't a stretch at all. It is very easy to see why this makes sense in my opinion.

 

Would that be your professional recommendation as a gymnast? Run backwards in order to become faster at backwards running? Did you graduate from the real life LBD gym academy?

[warmer]

 

You are making a plethora of assumptions about my intentions with very little information to go on. Not going to argue point by point with you. I am simply stating the fact that backwards mobility is incredibly nerfed from what it once was. Watch any zombie film fight sequence where they retreat while firing a bow or gun on them and tell me how it is done. How does Michonne on the Walking Dead often dispatch walkers with a sword? By backing up and hacking them as they come.

 

You should be able to easily outrun a walking zombie while moving backwards. That is just basic zombie lore 101. I would be happy with spending triple run stamina to move backward 1/3 run speed. That would be far more realistic than it is now.

 

This isn't about making the game easy. This is about making other game play tactics viable. Some people want to actually use agility to their advantage rather than tanking, which seems to be your only acceptable method of zombie dispatch.

 

Some people like to play tanks and others rogues. In my opinion a lot of the movement mechanics make the game heavily weighted towards tank style game play. I would personally like to see more agility based movement perks aside from simply being able to withstand a higher fall.

[Morloc]

How does Michonne on the Walking Dead often dispatch walkers with a sword? By backing up and hacking them as they come.

 

Well...I might be keen on the idea of a sort of "leap backward". Not sustainable, just a sort of "power move" in combat that allowed you to jump backward.

 

I would personally like to see more agility based movement perks aside from simply being able to withstand a higher fall.

 

The problem with any perk or skill or item that increases movement rate is that it becomes the #1 must-have perk/skill/item (see: Journeyman's Boots).

 

 

-Morloc

[warmer]

The problem with any perk or skill or item that increases movement rate is that it becomes the #1 must-have perk/skill/item (see: Journeyman's Boots).

 

 

-Morloc

 

I see your point. This is why it "only" affects speed in reverse. If you make it max 50% the difference between walk and forward run speed in reverse you can easily be caught by ferals or runners at night. Currently reverse movement is capped at forward walking speed. no jump back, dodge or burst of speed at the cost of stamina is just super unrealistic.

[Roland]

You are making a plethora of assumptions about my intentions with very little information to go on. Not going to argue point by point with you. I am simply stating the fact that backwards mobility is incredibly nerfed from what it once was. Watch any zombie film fight sequence where they retreat while firing a bow or gun on them and tell me how it is done. How does Michonne on the Walking Dead often dispatch walkers with a sword? By backing up and hacking them as they come.

 

You should be able to easily outrun a walking zombie while moving backwards. That is just basic zombie lore 101. I would be happy with spending triple run stamina to move backward 1/3 run speed. That would be far more realistic than it is now.

 

This isn't about making the game easy. This is about making other game play tactics viable. Some people want to actually use agility to their advantage rather than tanking, which seems to be your only acceptable method of zombie dispatch.

 

Some people like to play tanks and others rogues. In my opinion a lot of the movement mechanics make the game heavily weighted towards tank style game play. I would personally like to see more agility based movement perks aside from simply being able to withstand a higher fall.

 

1) Michonne calmly and easily walks backwards hacking heads in half and completely off. She doesn't run backwards.

 

2) Unless you increase zombie speed to jog or run, the current backward speed IS faster than the average zombies. You can easily do exactly what Michonne does. Calmly and easily dispatch them while walking backwards.

 

3) I agree that more agility based actions would be fun and desirable. I'd even be for faster backpedaling being one of the higher tier perks because regardless of your claims it is going to be tough for anyone to full out run backwards and not stumble when the the terrain is uneven and cluttered just as it is depicted in the game. On a track cleared of any obstacles? Sure. As I said, actually put the chance to stumble and fall flat on your back in the game and then go ahead and put backwards running back in and see how many will risk being stunned on the ground and how many will play it safe by turning around and running forward. I would be all for all the clutter being able to trip us up if moving backward.

 

4) I think of tank as standing there taking hits and giving hits but being able to outlast most things and then healing up any damage. I don't play like a tank at all. I move in and out. I run to a new position to avoid getting surrounded. I work hard at not getting hit at all. And despite the slower backpedaling I am often successful. I don't see my playstyle as being a tank.

 

That being said, I am all for more abilities and ways to be more agile and faster. I just think the impact of the slower backpedal is being exaggerated. I largely play melee as I always have. Of course, its also always been on the mediocre side admittedly. Then again, go too far into "interesting" territory and you cross over into Tekkan 4 arcade feeling territory...

[Morloc]

I would be all for all the clutter being able to trip us up if moving backward.

 

Well, the mechanic is partially there. When I trip over my bike I always think I've just been killed!

 

 

-Morloc

[ColdGate]

 

I think the current melee is just as fun as it has ever been which admittedly is a bit meh but better than other games I've played. It could be better and I would love for it to be better. Backpedaling at running speed is not more fun because it removes all challenge. I would like to see moves like a quick dodge, or a shove.

 

 

No, A17 melee lose most fun. Fun was in A16, when clearing POI on first day, max difficulty with bone knife. It was a real challenge and fun, require skill and stamina management. Now challenge is... take right distance before hit, too far - miss, too close - miss and eat hit from zombie, and do not forget aim before hit.

[Roland]

No, A17 melee lose most fun. Fun was in A16, when clearing POI on first day, max difficulty with bone knife. It was a real challenge and fun, require skill and stamina management. Now challenge is... take right distance before hit, too far - miss, too close - miss and eat hit from zombie, and do not forget aim before hit.

 

That, my friend, is simply the same learning curve to re-adapt we have had to go through many times whenever a new alpha adjusted the hit range or whatnot. I felt as you did that the challenge was figuring out the timing and the aiming when I first played A17 but now I’m past that curve and melee is pretty much the same now for me.

 

My question for you is whether you stuck with it and continued to play A17 or did you give up on it and revert to A16 and are speaking from your memory of your brief try? I stuck with it and sorted out the timing and aiming and now have zero issues (just like almost every previous alpha).

[OzHawkeye]

That, my friend, is simply the same learning curve to re-adapt we have had to go through many times whenever a new alpha adjusted the hit range or whatnot. I felt as you did that the challenge was figuring out the timing and the aiming when I first played A17 but now I’m past that curve and melee is pretty much the same now for me.

 

Very seconded. When I first started playing A17, my melee skills seemed "off" (and I almost always melee). It didn't take long though before I adjusted to the new timing required and fairly quickly had in A17 the same success with melee I had in previous Alphas.

[ColdGate]

My question for you is whether you stuck with it and continued to play A17 or did you give up on it and revert to A16 and are speaking from your memory of your brief try? I stuck with it and sorted out the timing and aiming and now have zero issues (just like almost every previous alpha).

 

Completely abandoned melee and switched to bow and ranged combat. Im trying learn melee a lot, especially in Darkness Falls mod (btw HP bars very helpful feature for melee), but it looks too much random.

[warmer]

1) Michonne calmly and easily walks backwards hacking heads in half and completely off. She doesn't run backwards.

 

2) Unless you increase zombie speed to jog or run, the current backward speed IS faster than the average zombies. You can easily do exactly what Michonne does. Calmly and easily dispatch them while walking backwards.

 

3) I agree that more agility based actions would be fun and desirable. I'd even be for faster backpedaling being one of the higher tier perks because regardless of your claims it is going to be tough for anyone to full out run backwards and not stumble when the the terrain is uneven and cluttered just as it is depicted in the game.

 

There is a misrepresentation of what I am suggesting. Nothin like a run, just a quick walk or jog. Just faster than the 3mph walk we have now. 6mph would be sufficient.

 

With that said, after more thought, I think this is the simplest to both implement and achieve what many of us wish we had in melee combat. Any kind of dodge at the expense of stamina would be a game changer tactics wise, and I think would fill the gap a lot of us feel about current combat finesse. Not asking for fencing pro like dodge, just at least a jump in the reverse with a double tap would be nice. Make it your jump ability but only in the horizontal plane.

 

So you could have a jump of 1 meter in any direction as a quick move and that would enable you to get out of the way of the arm coming your way once you missed the head shot. Because it costs stamina, you aren't going to be dodging many times without getting exhausted, but this opens up a more layered and tactical combat system without a ton of work on the dev side. Simply implement jump in the 2 horizontal axis with either a

 

WASD double tap or a WASD + "SPACE"

[Roland]

There is a misrepresentation of what I am suggesting. Nothin like a run, just a quick walk or jog. Just faster than the 3mph walk we have now. 6mph would be sufficient.

 

With that said, after more thought, I think this is the simplest to both implement and achieve what many of us wish we had in melee combat. Any kind of dodge at the expense of stamina would be a game changer tactics wise, and I think would fill the gap a lot of us feel about current combat finesse. Not asking for fencing pro like dodge, just at least a jump in the reverse with a double tap would be nice. Make it your jump ability but only in the horizontal plane.

 

So you could have a jump of 1 meter in any direction as a quick move and that would enable you to get out of the way of the arm coming your way once you missed the head shot. Because it costs stamina, you aren't going to be dodging many times without getting exhausted, but this opens up a more layered and tactical combat system without a ton of work on the dev side. Simply implement jump in the 2 horizontal axis with either a

 

WASD double tap or a WASD + "SPACE"

 

I like this idea and especially as something more interesting than just more fall damage prevention.

[AtomicUs5000]

WASD Double Tap dodge!

Reminiscent of many games, going all the way back to Punch-Out!

Great idea.

This would feel great in this game and suits it well.

[ColdGate]

Looks like zombies attacks works in another way then player attacks, Its looks like not hitscan, more like some kind of AOE splash, because often you may be hitted even if you run behind enemy during attack animation. But possibly this happens because result calculates when animation starts, and no matter what you do next. Also you may got hit if you kill enemy during attack animation. Anyway combat system looks very unfinished.

[Kubikus]

Yep, melee combat in A17 is boring af, while it never was particularly exciting anyway. Before, at least it was sorta dynamic, dash in and out, breaking heads. Now you slowly move backwards, staying out of reach and hold down LMB. Does really anybody need a tutorial for that? lol

 

Having said that. Once you've got a couple of perks maxed out, in particular parkour and anything melee and stamina related, you can bring some fun back with jumping around and over and on top of zombies like a bloody madman. The downside is that once you get there, all zombies cept for the rare biome spawn runs, and with the increased requirements in the precision department, the fun yet again is drained severely. It works nicely with walking and jogging zombies, though, you might wanna try it out.

[Scyris]

I guess what you don't know is that you can still step in and step back with ease and never get hit. But now that you do know it, please stop standing still while in combat.

 

Yeah this still works, just a bot harder vs running zombies. but vs normals you should not be getting hit in melee at all, if you are, your just bad. As for the dismemberment chance, I feel its far to high. it should be maybe 15% at level 5 in the perk. Being able to have a 50/50 chance of instakilling everything is kinda boring, you might as well just use a wooden club and just swing like crazy till head pops. I honestly feel the unperked chance of decap to be more than enough. It happens often enough that its nice, but not too often that it breaks the game.

 

As for bladed weapons. My issue with them was the machete is way to weak for a lv 70+ steel weapon to craft, when you can make a iron club at the start of the game that has higher damage. Not to mention the sledge, You bascally need too many perks to make bladed weapons viable, compared to blunt where its viable from the start, even without perks. I love my sledge though, from cracking skulls and raiding poi's. Saves me the time of having to switch to fireaxe or pickaxe, as I can just sledge it down if somethings in my way.

[Shelgeyr]

-Only few people have the capacity to become world class gymnasts - why should your character be one of them?

In general I agree with your position, but want to poke at this one because it made me laugh.

Only a few people in the world have managed to survive the zombie apocalypse, and my character is one of them!

[Euzio]

Yeah this still works, just a bot harder vs running zombies. but vs normals you should not be getting hit in melee at all, if you are, your just bad. As for the dismemberment chance, I feel its far to high. it should be maybe 15% at level 5 in the perk. Being able to have a 50/50 chance of instakilling everything is kinda boring, you might as well just use a wooden club and just swing like crazy till head pops. I honestly feel the unperked chance of decap to be more than enough. It happens often enough that its nice, but not too often that it breaks the game.

 

As for bladed weapons. My issue with them was the machete is way to weak for a lv 70+ steel weapon to craft, when you can make a iron club at the start of the game that has higher damage. Not to mention the sledge, You bascally need too many perks to make bladed weapons viable, compared to blunt where its viable from the start, even without perks. I love my sledge though, from cracking skulls and raiding poi's. Saves me the time of having to switch to fireaxe or pickaxe, as I can just sledge it down if somethings in my way.

 

I think the almost 50/50 chance of insta-killing is fine once specced into it. It kinda helps even things out as towards the late game, we're more likely to be fighting ferals/irradiated rather than regular zombies compared to the start.

 

However, I do agree with the Machete being rather weak for a level 70 steel weapon. The cost and damage doesn't seem to justify its use. At this point, I'd rather just stick with the Hunting Knife as its alot cheaper to repair. The Sledgehammer can be crafted very early and only needs forged iron to repair. So we're basically getting the best weapon in the game early very early on. As a fan of bladed weapons, its kinda disappointing that blades in general aren't exactly given much love.

[Khulkhuum]

Currently we have a wooden club, iron club and sledge hammer in the first category. The second portrays bone shiv, hunting knife and machete. For the sake of arguing, we also can use all axes, shovels, hoes, wrenches, hammers, torches and flashlights as weapons. The difference is only slight as all weapon damage is so low it barely changes anything (due consider all of the bonuses from perks that ramp up the damage in various ways).

 

So comparing only the base damage you have (from most to least, what is in the configs):

- Sledgehammer (42), Steel Fireaxe (30), Iron Fireaxe (26), Steel Pickaxe (22), Iron Club (21), Machete (20), Iron Pickaxe (17), Wooden Club (16) along with Bone Shiv (16), Steel Shovel (16), while the rest are below.

 

Taking into account the speed with which you attack, you get the appropriate damage per minute (speed * base damage, not taking stamina into consideration):

- Chainsaw (5 * 300 = 1500), Sledgehammer (1428), Steel Fireaxe (1410), Iron Club (1092), Auger (3.5 * 500 = 1050), Steel Pickaxe (1034), Machete (1000), Iron Pickaxe (935), Wooden Club (880) along with Bone Shiv (880), while the rest are lower.

 

You can clearly see how using some tools is better than the weapons or almost equal. In the past blades had better dismemberment while clubs had stun, now this is forgotten, referenced perhaps only in skills in some way. Also, if you take stamina into consideration, Chainsaw wins even though it gathers Z attention (is loud), Sledge is 2nd best, but very slow, but so is Steel Fireaxe. Even Iron Club is better than the machete in base damage, as well as DPS...

 

MOST IMPORTANT THOUGH!!!! Machete has lower range (2.4) compared to Fireaxes and Steel pickaxe (2.9) and also to all shovels (3.4). Only Bone Shiv, Hunting Knife and Flashlight has lower range (which also makes blades early on very tough to handle as you need to go closer to enemies). So yeah, go figure...