Spoilage of building materials

[Viktoriusiii]

Originally Posted by FA_Q2 View Post

Meh, spoilage is just another thing to micro manage that I don't think adds anything to the game. Spoilage would not make it so that hunger does not get 'solved' at some point. All it would accomplish IMHO, is make me do more micro managing to solve it. If you want to remove the solution to hunger than that would require ending farming - not something that I think would be a good thing either.

Exactly. I nerfed healing from meds some, so you might use more food to survive. Eggs and feathers are getting a nerf yet too.

 

so very sad to see this.

for me I do like to "manage" (not micromanage) stuff.

I liked the weaponparts so maybe I'm just crazy, but I feel a bit of depth is really good for a survival game.

If everything is come by easy and doesnt need some careful planning, its way more arcady than I'd like it to be.

[Damocles]

The game can always offer alternatives to food that spoils (canned), but give those foods certain drawbacks (lower endurance / resistances)

[meganoth]

this only meant that a bug ruined this feature.

 

If implemented correctly, electricity and a battery bank would be like bread and butter because you need it to run the fridge.

 

But early on you cant just craft 50 meat stews and be done with.

 

Early on you can't (or should not be able to) craft 50 meat stews because you don't have the meat and other ingredients.

 

We already have a food resource sink in the game, the player. For the in-game food economy the only requirement is that the supply is matched to this sink. Adding another sink or removing some of the supply is practically equivalent. (Remember A16.0, where food was scarce enough to be nearly balanced for experienced players)

 

Additionally spoilage adds a timing element so you have to space out the food gathering activities, making it (and possibly cooking) into a daily action instead of say once a week. It might also add micromanagement which some might like, some might not, but I can't imagine it ever getting complicated enough to really need higher brain functions after you found the right routine to use.

 

So IMHO the timing element is the only real reason to want spoilage. People would find a dish (without meat) where they can harvest all ingredients, get just the right amount from the garden every morning and cook it. A daily routine. Is that worth the effort of implementing it?

[Damocles]

Spoilage could be the biggest incentive for farming: if you dont want food to waste away, keep the crops (or chicken) on the field. Also to acquire enough variation in crops.

 

Without farming the player must plan in regular hunting, gathering and looting.

 

OR be content with low quality preserved food. (And its drawbacks)

 

OR have better storage methods in late game.

[OzHawkeye]

Spoilage could be the biggest incentive for farming:

 

That kind of points out a problem with food spoilage though.

 

Assuming the crops don't spoil over time, I could just build a big ol' farm and then only harvest as and when I need food to consume. Voila, food spoilage worked around (at least, for meals that can be assembled entirely from harvested materials).

[Viktoriusiii]

That kind of points out a problem with food spoilage though.

 

Assuming the crops don't spoil over time, I could just build a big ol' farm and then only harvest as and when I need food to consume. Voila, food spoilage worked around (at least, for meals that can be assembled entirely from harvested materials).

 

but for crops you need to put in points. So a normal person cant do a farm.

Which would be the advantage of teaming up or focusing on fortitude perks.

 

General problem:

food spoils

 

solvable trough:

electricity (costly)

farming (needs perks and only works for crops and not for meat)

 

isn't that good gamedesign?

 

give problem to overcome

 

give multiple solutions to the problem that will put the player in a dilemma but gives him an advatage no matter what he chooses.

[Scyris]

If it's only for the purpose of annoyance then it will be quickly modded out. On the other hand, if it is not a very severe change so that you can barely survive when food starts spoiling (it's tougher, but not critically) and there is a usage for spoiled food, why the hell not? We can find rotten meat in many places, yet there is not much usage for it (only recently it got some attention).

 

I would expect though for this feature to be seriously well designed, otherwise it will be something most will despise.

 

Yeah kinda like the inventory encumbrance and the armor move speed reductions. I pretty much modded out the inv speed reduction. The armor one I may half per piece.

[RestInPieces]

Exactly. I nerfed healing from meds some, so you might use more food to survive. Eggs and feathers are getting a nerf yet too.

so very sad to see this.

for me I do like to "manage" (not micromanage) stuff.

I liked the weaponparts so maybe I'm just crazy, but I feel a bit of depth is really good for a survival game.

If everything is come by easy and doesnt need some careful planning, its way more arcady than I'd like it to be.

 

Yes, it's a shame MM sees it as "micromanagement that will add nothing to the game". In fact, without spoilage, hunger management is the thing that becomes plain micromanagement because when one gathers and stockpiles huge amounts of food, it becomes nothing more than "regular interval clicking", killing farming, hunting and scavenging for food.

 

Micromanagement is a negative-sounding word everyone throws around ignoring the fact that most of the game already boils down to micromanaging different elements.

 

Adding another sink or removing some of the supply is practically equivalent.

 

It isn't as simple as adding and subtracting sinks and sources, like it would be with currency, because independently from how abundant or scarce the source is, spoilage will always "reset" the player's supply.

 

Also tuning the supply would have a very different effect than tuning a "currency-type" supply. In a healthy microeconomy sinks are always greater than the source. In the case of food:

-You can't make the source (supply) smaller than the sinks because the game would simply be unplayable.

-If you make the source greater than the sinks, the same thing would happen that would also happen in a currency-type economy - inflation and depreciation.

 

Therefore you need a special sink that normalizes the supply by resetting it, instead of a typical sink that just subtracts from the pool.

 

Additionally spoilage adds a timing element so you have to space out the food gathering activities, making it (and possibly cooking) into a daily action instead of say once a week. It might also add micromanagement which some might like, some might not, but I can't imagine it ever getting complicated enough to really need higher brain functions after you found the right routine to use.

 

So IMHO the timing element is the only real reason to want spoilage. People would find a dish (without meat) where they can harvest all ingredients, get just the right amount from the garden every morning and cook it. A daily routine. Is that worth the effort of implementing it?

 

As a big fan of spoilage in games, the timing reason is not within the list of reasons that I want spoilage. Roland pretty much summed up all the reasons in the dev diary thread - it is a matter of keeping activities alive, creating urgency, adding gameplay progression elements. Also the routine doesn't have to be daily, the timing of cooking can be very lenient and the "management" part can be flexible.

 

That kind of points out a problem with food spoilage though.

 

Assuming the crops don't spoil over time, I could just build a big ol' farm and then only harvest as and when I need food to consume. Voila, food spoilage worked around (at least, for meals that can be assembled entirely from harvested materials).

 

This is a problem with 100 obvious cost-free solutions. Spoiled yield with more lenient expiration would work like a charm, but my favorite would be balancing fertilizer/seeds so that it simply becomes even more inefficient to do such a thing.

[OzHawkeye]

but for crops you need to put in points. So a normal person cant do a farm.

Which would be the advantage of teaming up or focusing on fortitude perks.

 

General problem:

food spoils

 

solvable trough:

electricity (costly)

farming (needs perks and only works for crops and not for meat)

 

isn't that good gamedesign?

 

give problem to overcome

 

give multiple solutions to the problem that will put the player in a dilemma but gives him an advatage no matter what he chooses.

 

Yes, I can see there is a meaningful choice there. A player can skip food spoilage by basically being a vegetarian, though for that to work, the purely "growable" foods, must give less of a benefit than the meaty kind.

 

If being a herbavore is as effectively as good (for player health etc) as being a carnivore, (or even omnivore), and simultaneously relieves one of the burden of food spoilage, then I imagine 7Days will end up with a PETA badge of honour, as many players will switch to in-game vegetarianism.

[Viktoriusiii]

Yes, I can see there is a meaningful choice there. A player can skip food spoilage by basically being a vegetarian, though for that to work, the purely "growable" foods, must give less of a benefit than the meaty kind.

 

If being a herbavore is as effectively as good (for player health etc) as being a carnivore, (or even omnivore), and simultaneously relieves one of the burden of food spoilage, then I imagine 7Days will end up with a PETA badge of honour, as many players will switch to in-game vegetarianism.

 

obviously there needs to be a difference. But there already is.

A cornbread gives like 5-10 food, bacon and eggs give like 3-4 times that (dont know the exact value)

sadly wellness got removed because that was always a great incentive.

 

But even so you CAN be a vegan *coughs and tries to supress his inner need to tell everyone* without any healthnegatives.

BUT meat&eggs give WAY more calories/energy. Also there is only like potatoes corn blueberries and some canned soups, whichs is kinda limited (but a gameplay descicion because there is no need for more crops)

 

So yes. Meat&Eggs way more energy maybe a slight buff, but if you want to create a huge farm and harvest it every day, that should be possible.

[meganoth]

It isn't as simple as adding and subtracting sinks and sources, like it would be with currency, because independently from how abundant or scarce the source is, spoilage will always "reset" the player's supply.

 

Ok, right. It does make it easier to balance food. But players will adapt because they hate to lose stuff. The stockpile will still exist for anyone who puts a measly point into farming, it will be sitting in the field harvested to order.

 

Spoilage will be more noticable for hunters who would have to stockpile cans (which I assume will not spoil) for emergencies.

 

As a big fan of spoilage in games, the timing reason is not within the list of reasons that I want spoilage. Roland pretty much summed up all the reasons in the dev diary thread - it is a matter of keeping activities alive, creating urgency, adding gameplay progression elements. Also the routine doesn't have to be daily, the timing of cooking can be very lenient and the "management" part can be flexible.

 

My question at the end wasn't completely rethoric. Daily was just a convenient example.

[Damocles]

That kind of points out a problem with food spoilage though.

 

Assuming the crops don't spoil over time, I could just build a big ol' farm and then only harvest as and when I need food to consume. Voila, food spoilage worked around (at least, for meals that can be assembled entirely from harvested materials).

 

There must be some kind of threats to the farm / some investment.

Such as watering, fertilizing, growth lamps (electricity / gasoline), zombies destroying them, weather/temperature, manually removing bugs.

[RestInPieces]

The stockpile will still exist for anyone who puts a measly point into farming, it will be sitting in the field harvested to order.

 

Well, how dumb would it be to implement spoilage and not make some simple farming tweaks to prevent that? Adding a simple cost, one-time or recurring, would solve it, spoiled yields (with large expiration periods) would also solve it.

 

There must be some kind of threats to the farm / some investment.

Such as watering, fertilizing, growth lamps (electricity / gasoline), zombies destroying them, weather/temperature, manually removing bugs.

 

Exactly - doesn't even have to be anything complex or anything which will influence farming itself for players who opt out of spoilage.

[meganoth]

Well, how dumb would it be to implement spoilage and not make some simple farming tweaks to prevent that? Adding a simple cost one time or recurring would solve that, spoiled yields (with large expiration periods) would also solve that.

 

Simple? If a seed grows in three days as it is now I can have three rows that I harvest round-robin and I always have the freshest vegetables daily. Is it easy to prevent that, especially if it should be low on micro-management?

 

Exactly - doesn't even have to be anything complex or anything which will influence farming itself for players who opt out of spoilage.

 

I pick just one of Damocles ideas: "Manually picking bugs". Come on. If that isn't the pinnacle of micro-managing farming, what is? This really can't be the goal for vanilla. If someone plays starvation mod he knows what he is getting into.

 

I'm all for zombies targeting plants, but that is a good idea independent of this discussion and just adds a need to put walls around your farm, but I don't see it preventing you from making the farm a neverending food source.

[RestInPieces]

Simple? If a seed grows in three days as it is now I can have three rows that I harvest round-robin and I always have the freshest vegetables daily. Is it easy to prevent that, especially if it should be low on micro-management?

 

I pick just one of Damocles ideas: "Manually picking bugs". Come on. If that isn't the pinnacle of micro-managing farming, what is? This really can't be the goal for vanilla. If someone plays starvation mod he knows what he is getting into.

 

I'm all for zombies targeting plants, but that is a good idea independent of this discussion and just adds a need to put walls around your farm, but I don't see it preventing you from making the farm a neverending food source.

 

A one-time use of a resource that is controlled and not too abundant, like fertilizer, would just fix it. One can even create a successful zero entropy cycle of food -> spoiled food -> fertilizer -> food. If zero entropy is impossible with spoiled food alone, add another appropriate material.

Spoiled yields would also fix it - with larger crop decay times than yields themselves the micromanagement of yields would be exactly ...zero, as long as the player doesn't make large enough farms to worry about it.

I don't like zombies targeting plants tbh - creates its own problems, exploits blah blah - so many simpler and more immersive solutions already.

[Roland]

"Tedious", "Micromanagement", and "Artificial Difficulty" are the trifecta of excuses people give for anything that increases the survival aspect of the game. All it means though is that they are not fans of actual survival games.

[LawofJohn]

If I wanted to play a game with food spoilage, I would play ark. Ark, like others have mentioned before, has actual USES for spoiled food. I doubt whatever idea the devs would have for using spoiled food would ever really fly with me. Hell, I dont even farm, because I dont want to waste what little game time I have to micromanage a farm in game, esp playing MP.

[Roland]

If I wanted to play a game with food spoilage, I would play ark. Ark, like others have mentioned before, has actual USES for spoiled food. I doubt whatever idea the devs would have for using spoiled food would ever really fly with me. Hell, I dont even farm, because I dont want to waste what little game time I have to micromanage a farm in game, esp playing MP.

 

You mean you don't NEED to farm because food is so plentiful and never spoils so you always have an abundance. The way the game should be is that if you ignore farming you WILL run out of food. A garden should be one of the first things you get going so that when the cans run out and the area is fully hunted you have something to sustain yourself. As for "micromanaging" a farm in this game I'm not sure what you are talking about. You never have to water or replant. It couldn't get any less management intensive unless you had a farmer dropping off the crops to you...

[LawofJohn]

Roland, if I get to the point where I HAVE to plant a farm, I will just mod out spoilage. Yes, it takes away the survival aspect. You guys already killed any form of realism for me when you took out "spam crafting". Made 100x more sense then killing zombies and magicaly knowing how to make better tools, or how to build a forge. So adding spoilage should not really be an option, or if it is, they really should put an option when we start the game. Like how Ark does it. They have it so you can make the spoiling timer go faster, or slower. Even not at all, if memory serves me correctly.

[Roland]

Roland, if I get to the point where I HAVE to plant a farm, I will just mod out spoilage. Yes, it takes away the survival aspect. You guys already killed any form of realism for me when you took out "spam crafting". Made 100x more sense then killing zombies and magicaly knowing how to make better tools, or how to build a forge. So adding spoilage should not really be an option, or if it is, they really should put an option when we start the game. Like how Ark does it. They have it so you can make the spoiling timer go faster, or slower. Even not at all, if memory serves me correctly.

 

An option is all we've been talking about. I don't want to force anyone to have to play the survival game that was advertised. Of course, I believe it should be optional. Pushing this game towards the sim end of the spectrum will appeal only to some so I agree with you. Nobody is fighting with you about vanilla.

[Viktoriusiii]

Roland, if I get to the point where I HAVE to plant a farm, I will just mod out spoilage. Yes, it takes away the survival aspect. You guys already killed any form of realism for me when you took out "spam crafting". Made 100x more sense then killing zombies and magicaly knowing how to make better tools, or how to build a forge. So adding spoilage should not really be an option, or if it is, they really should put an option when we start the game. Like how Ark does it. They have it so you can make the spoiling timer go faster, or slower. Even not at all, if memory serves me correctly.

 

you can mod it out (if it ever gets implemented)

 

but to say that they ruined one aspect therefor another shouldnt be implemented is not a good argument and comes across more as butthurt then as a real thought through argument.

[OzHawkeye]

There must be some kind of threats to the farm / some investment.

Such as watering, fertilizing, growth lamps (electricity / gasoline), zombies destroying them, weather/temperature, manually removing bugs.

 

As I've stated in this very thread, I hope of Zombie-trampling-of-crops (last seen in A9) comes back some day.

[meganoth]

"Tedious", "Micromanagement", and "Artificial Difficulty" are the trifecta of excuses people give for anything that increases the survival aspect of the game. All it means though is that they are not fans of actual survival games.

 

Oh, sorry, yes, I forgot: It also is tedious and provides artificial difficulty .

 

A one-time use of a resource that is controlled and not too abundant, like fertilizer, would just fix it. One can even create a successful zero entropy cycle of food -> spoiled food -> fertilizer -> food. If zero entropy is impossible with spoiled food alone, add another appropriate material.

Spoiled yields would also fix it - with larger crop decay times than yields themselves the micromanagement of yields would be exactly ...zero, as long as the player doesn't make large enough farms to worry about it.

I don't like zombies targeting plants tbh - creates its own problems, exploits blah blah - so many simpler and more immersive solutions already.

 

In other words, reign in the exponential growth seed crafting provides (more or less, your description leaves a lot of details open). IMO that exp. growth is the biggest problem here and without it even the need for spoiled food might be gone.

 

An idea that I had already proposed in A16 was that seeds can't be produced but only found (or produced from naturally grown plants, never from your own seeded plants). RIP exponential growth, the food explosion is missing the fuse.

[Lanadon Conners]

As I've stated in this very thread, I hope of Zombie-trampling-of-crops (last seen in A9) comes back some day.

 

[OzHawkeye]

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Hehe, I like it! :-)