Steam reviews - I kinda figured

[Kage848]

That's fair, it was always your stated intention, but have you noticed that the more RPG elements you add the less fun the game becomes?

 

NOPE. I see how much more fun it is becoming. And in seeing more rpg elements in other survival games too. And they are better off for it 😁

[DaVegaNL]

Tedium (taking longer to break blocks and getting less resouces) is not challange.

 

Its not about wanting things handing to them, it's about wanting core gameplay mechanics to balanced and fun.

Right now (and in a16) about halfway through the progression is where the game stops feeling like a chore and starts feeling enjoyable again, make this the baseline instead.

 

You want A16's point where nothing was a chore anymore to be the baseline? Lol. Now I see why you liked A16 so much..

 

Something being a 'tedium', or something being 'fun' is extremely subjective. I prefer working towards something. But hey, that's okay. To each their own. I just like a challenge. Some people don't want to be challenged at all.

[Kage848]

I've learned that some players are simply masochistic, and the more they suffer, the more fun they have at a game. If you gave them 1 piece of iron for 20 whole boulders they would melt from satisfaction. Also there is a difference between players who like the goal and players who like the road to the goal. Road to the goal usually represents grind and the more of it, the better for these folks, whereas the others get frustrated to hell.

 

The problem is im still on the road. I'm just farther along. I'm by no means at end game. I like to stretch out the middle to late game, you know when the gameplay is more fun, just my opinion of course.

[WolfyBlah]

I dont mind the level gates. Take all the iron tools and stuff out of the trader and if still love them.

 

I think your thinking of past seasons. I hated rng, not lvl gates. Now if I put in the work I'm guaranteed to get my reward. That's how it should work. With rng you put in the work and maybe get what you need. Back then I was all about that trader mini bike book lol.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

 

 

I dont see how those settings are any different than you modding the game.

 

Il disagree here: RNG as a progression was a good mechanic, it varied what items you craft based on what recipes you found in

That playthrough. Gave actual repeatability to the game, somthing that is lessened a hell of a lot by 'play the exact same game every time with diffrent stats'.

 

Traders are as much an RNG factor as looting, thier item selection is random, you werent garunteed to be rewarded for farming 10k dukes with a specifc item.

 

If you are refering to everything now being a perk you just have to grind XP for... id much rather have RNG for recipes but can see how others could feel the opposite.

 

Id say that somthing got confused along the way here: people keep saying i just want things handing to me... thats exactly what this new system does. It garuntees you will be able to craft X by level Y.

 

I miss the forge ahead book, would have been great to see a primitive forge added that could only make up to qual 200 items (keeps forge a usable mechanic without finding the book AND gives it more of a progression)

[hotpoon]

In A16 it was always the exact same build. "Whats your build"? "Survivor" "Oh, me too " Now you can specialize in medicine or crafting, a variety of combat, make a glass cannon if you want, etc. Its not perfect but its 100x better than the NO CHOICE you had with A16. You choose what you need to survive and be OP, not to choose a role that might be a different challenge for a veteran.

 

I...vehemently disagree. I haven't played a lot of single player. I've always played with friends (until A17 of course because no one wants to play with me), but in A16, we all had our roles. I would be the scavenger/blunt force trauma dealer. My man would be the miner and builder. Another friend would be the science guy making us the best minibikes. Someone else would be the armour crafter gearing us up. Someone else would be the sharp shooter. etc etc. There was a world of choice, but still quite a lot of leeway to be a fairly successful 'Jack of All Trades' come end game.

 

I truly wish you would stop selling yourself short and comparing yourself to fallout. Your game is much better.

 

I was going to say the same thing. I've tried on multiple occasions to get into Fallout New Vegas, but always lost interest after a few days. 7 Days to Die (even in it's current worst state) is a far superior game in my opinion. A16.4 was the best game I have ever played, and I'm not a spring chicken. TFP have created a magical world that has a lot of replayability, so much so that many of us have become emotionally invested in this game, and I think that is why tempers are often flaring in this forum.

[Kage848]

You know that's just because you absolutely want to start digging and mining from your first steps in the game, right ? I never start doing those things before I have found / craft / bought good tools and upgrade the necessary perks. So I'm not masochist : just organized in my priorities. But the good thing is TFP listened to you and in the next version you'll be able to make holes and gain xp as soon as you launch your game. What a beautiful world

 

Not sure if your being sarcastic lol. I'll assume you are and ask, whats wrong with that? Seems to me making the game fun for all should be a goal, no?

 

Also I'm actually having a ball clearing pois and leveling up on zombie skull crushing. It's probably getting old though because of all the restarts. Nothing tfp can do about that though, so it's all good.

[WolfyBlah]

You want A16's point where nothing was a chore anymore to be the baseline? Lol. Now I see why you liked A16 so much..

 

Something being a 'tedium', or something being 'fun' is extremely subjective. I prefer working towards something. But hey, that's okay. To each their own. I just like a challenge. Some people don't want to be challenged at all.

 

"I prefer working towards somthing but want to be able to grind generic XP to get better at any given thing in the game"

Well okay then.

[WolfyBlah]

You want A16's point where nothing was a chore anymore to be the baseline? Lol. Now I see why you liked A16 so much..

 

Something being a 'tedium', or something being 'fun' is extremely subjective. I prefer working towards something. But hey, that's okay. To each their own. I just like a challenge. Some people don't want to be challenged at all.

 

I will say it again.

Taking longer to break a boulder and getting less out of it is not a challange.

A challange is a meassure of the players skill. Please tell me how it taking forever to mine is testing your skill?

[Kage848]

Its true that i dont watch your videos anymore, the style has changed over the years and that put me off (used to view you as just a knowladgeable player teaching the game, more recently its stuff like screamig 'HYYYYPE' at the start of videos... sorry but im not the target audiance for that.

 

Not saying dont do this anymore, if its what works for you thats great, its just... more somthing my younger family members would watch than somthing i would.

 

So you didn't abuse the trader in this most recent alpha: the question still stands, are they a good game mechanic on thier own or is progression skips (eg getting steel before you can make it) the *only* reason you like the traders?

-Edit: kage answered this above

 

As far as other games go, been gald to see you branching out over the last few years, i wont watch mist or rust or ark or whatever else because the games themseleves dont appeal to me, but if its helping your channel grow thats great.

 

That's cool you dont watch the channel. Not every youtuber is for everyone.

 

And yea again, take the tools out of the trader and I'd still love them. But why take then out? It's no different than looting an iron pick. Should they take the iron picks and stuff out of the loot too? We can make guns, take then out of the loot? What's left to loot? It's just rng to give you an little boost if you get lucky enough to find one, the iron tools I mean.

[Benjiro]

Its true that i dont watch your videos anymore, the style has changed over the years and that put me off (used to view you as just a knowladgeable player teaching the game, more recently its stuff like screamig 'HYYYYPE' at the start of videos... sorry but im not the target audiance for that.

 

Not saying dont do this anymore, if its what works for you thats great, its just... more somthing my younger family members would watch than somthing i would.

 

I got the same feeling. I am happy that Kage and the wife love the changes to A17, especially for them in MP those changes are very helpful.

 

But for me as a viewer the gameplay has gotten boring fast. Most i quickly skip into... Its always Find Traders, location near trader, shotgun messiah, some other POI ( with constantly running in and out because that is how A17 now plays like )...

 

Most of Kage his base building feels uninspired these days, what comes down mostly to the AI just wrecking big bases on single points. So, you see in his base designs that same simplicity to deal with the AI. And more boring is the fact that the tends to use two bases ( bloodmoon base and real base ).

 

I said it before, the game needs to learn to target the real player base, not where the player is! So defending has more meaning and is more difficult. Its way easier to defend a few 3*3 towers with spikes all around then a large house with spikes ( more resource intensive etc ).

 

 

 

So you didn't abuse the trader in this most recent alpha: the question still stands, are they a good game mechanic on thier own or is progression skips (eg getting steel before you can make it) the *only* reason you like the traders?

-Edit: kage answered this above

 

As far as other games go, been gald to see you branching out over the last few years, i wont watch mist or rust or ark or whatever else because the games themseleves dont appeal to me, but if its helping your channel grow thats great.

 

The reason he did not abuse the trader in one of the sessions was simply because he had RNG luck in the loot.

 

Now, its hard to keep track of whatever Kage is doing anymore because at some moment he is doing like 3 game plays. So for me as viewer, its confusing, especially when you also had several restarts with the A17E builds.

 

And maybe its just me not liking A17, that it makes Kage his videos extra boring these days. The MP with the wife is more funny because you have the interaction but the extra hands also make it less challenging. Especially with the whole group reward questing they do.

 

That statement from Kage that 7D2D is the survival game, sorry but that is long past. There are better survival games out there now. Some where food and water actually matters. Sure, a lot are not finished / have less time on the development cycle then 7D2D ( people keep forgetting that 7D2D is already 5 years out! ) but a lot of those games have a better grasp in their design / goals then 7D2D.

 

7D2D with mods, now yes, that is true survival. And those game sessions tend to be more interesting.

[WolfyBlah]

That's cool you dont watch the channel. Not every youtuber is for everyone.

 

And yea again, take the tools out of the trader and I'd still love them. But why take then out? It's no different than looting an iron pick. Should they take the iron picks and stuff out of the loot too? We can make guns, take then out of the loot? What's left to loot? It's just rng to give you an little boost if you get lucky enough to find one, the iron tools I mean.

 

I would tottaly take them out of loot and the trader, the devs are the ones who are dead set on us having defined stages (primitive, iron, steel) so actually making this a thing you progress through instead of sidestep by looting would be a good thing.

 

Should a shotgun be available as loot? Sure.

Should looting a shotgun 30 levels before you can make one be common place? No.

 

As it stands if you want to get your hands on any item in the game its 1000x more rewarding to go loot till you get it than to level up and craft it.

You will get other good stuff too and will more than likely get a better quality version of the item you want than you can make for 20 levels.

 

Theres plenty left to loot that isnt a higher tier equipment than you *should* have at that point in the game. Food and meds (survival) and crafting components should give you a reason to loot throughout the game. Instead food and drink is a joke after the first few days, and meds are even more of a joke currently. Why bother looting antibiotics when you can take a perk that does the exact same?

 

Maybe limit the quality on looted guns to 1 until you can craft it. IDK, there are a lot of ways this could be tackled.

 

-

 

To dig into this more: id rather we went back to NOT being able to craft guns, make them a loot only item. The last time i felt that crafting guns was right was when we had forge molds.

Now? Bah just get an excessive ammount of steel and you can craft a shotgun. Crafting in this game is dumber than ever.

[leaderdog]

 

Also I'm actually having a ball clearing pois and leveling up on zombie skull crushing. It's probably getting old though because of all the restarts. Nothing tfp can do about that though, so it's all good.

 

Have you asked your viewers if they enjoy watching the early game?

 

The problem is, it is boring to play the early game, I'm guessing you cut out a lot of that, unless you're streaming? I know Kickz does, because it is boring watching the grind at the start.

 

The replay ability has taken a massive hit, to me, as I don't at all enjoy starting over any more.

 

And when you said you didn't like rng, you prefer getting exactly what you want for the work you put in totally shows how simplified and boring the game has become. The random new experience you get with the challenge you'll face with each play through is gone. Which now makes almost every playthrough virtually the same because your path will be the same.

 

That's Either OCD or someone who enjoys boring repetitive things.

 

And like HotPoon said, This game was VASTLY superior to fallout 4. I loved fallout but fallout 4 after playing 7 Days to Die felt clunky, boring, and just not interesting. Then Alpha 17 came out. Now 7dtd feels clunky, boring and has lost the majority of its appeal.

 

I get cravings to play it, so I do, then I get bored very quickly and I quit. That's not enjoyable game play mechanics. And the complaining from most of us is coming from those of us that enjoyed a game with great replay ability and freedom.

 

Disappointing so many can't seem to see that. But lots enjoy fallout 4 so I guess there's that.

 

Or all of us complaining should just learn to like fallout 4 and go play it?

[thraka]

Yeah some people like to be challenged, others want everything handed to them.

 

What's challenging about slower resource gathering? Do you have to aim better to hit the rock? Do you have to solve puzzles? No, you just have to stand in one spot and hold a button down, which is the definition of NOT challenging.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

You want A16's point where nothing was a chore anymore to be the baseline? Lol. Now I see why you liked A16 so much..

 

Something being a 'tedium', or something being 'fun' is extremely subjective. I prefer working towards something. But hey, that's okay. To each their own. I just like a challenge. Some people don't want to be challenged at all.

 

So presumably you were on hardest settings, normal or shorter days, and Dead is Dead and breezed through it, right?

[Deceptive Pastry]

But hey, that's okay. To each their own. I just like a challenge. Some people don't want to be challenged at all.

 

Challenging is zombies that move twice as fast. There's nothing challenging about taking 10 minutes to gather resources vs 8. I really don't understand some of the stances you hold, but clearly you are a superior gamer and we wouldn't be expected to.

[meganoth]

Id view aquiring things from traders as another seperate thing, just because somewant wants to craft dosent mean they want to use traders, i personally never use them.

 

Hey, you can ignore game elements like the trader, it's your personal choice. But then don't complain that your playstyle is worse off if that game element would otherwise boost your playstyle.

 

Likewise a fighter can't say "Hey, I don't use guns. But now I can't compete with others because my bow is too weak. Buff the bow please".

 

The issue raised was crafting an item being heavily gated vs finding it in loot/trader. To which you went 'you dont have to craft it, exploit trader instead'.

 

If you buy the schematic at the trader, you still need to craft the mod. Do you realise that all the schematics you can find or buy are completely worthless to a fighter?

 

A typical way to the optimal weapon for a crafter might be: You craft the gun, loot 2 schematics in book shops, buy another schematic at the trader and craft these. And buy 2 mods from the trader. (I skimped over the intermediate steps where you craft lower level guns and mods until arriving at that perfect weapon).

 

Or all of us complaining should just learn to like fallout 4 and go play it?

 

You did see that people were talking about Fallout 3 New Vegas? Really a different game than Fallout 4.

[Kage848]

Have you asked your viewers if they enjoy watching the early game?

 

The problem is, it is boring to play the early game, I'm guessing you cut out a lot of that, unless you're streaming? I know Kickz does, because it is boring watching the grind at the start.

 

The replay ability has taken a massive hit, to me, as I don't at all enjoy starting over any more.

 

And when you said you didn't like rng, you prefer getting exactly what you want for the work you put in totally shows how simplified and boring the game has become. The random new experience you get with the challenge you'll face with each play through is gone. Which now makes almost every playthrough virtually the same because your path will be the same.

 

That's Either OCD or someone who enjoys boring repetitive things.

 

And like HotPoon said, This game was VASTLY superior to fallout 4. I loved fallout but fallout 4 after playing 7 Days to Die felt clunky, boring, and just not interesting. Then Alpha 17 came out. Now 7dtd feels clunky, boring and has lost the majority of its appeal.

 

I get cravings to play it, so I do, then I get bored very quickly and I quit. That's not enjoyable game play mechanics. And the complaining from most of us is coming from those of us that enjoyed a game with great replay ability and freedom.

 

Disappointing so many can't seem to see that. But lots enjoy fallout 4 so I guess there's that.

 

Or all of us complaining should just learn to like fallout 4 and go play it?

 

There's not enough time in the day to cut out the early game with all the restarts. I attempt to make the early game fun for the viewers on restarts. Either with humor, cookyness, or new ideas for the game or future bases.

 

The videos have been doing well, views are up so I'd assume I'm having some success. But your right the early game over and over is going to get old for the viewers. It's even worse because i dont want to start any of my new base ideas because I'll be restarting again soon. It sucks to get halfway through making a base to have to start over. You have either burned that base idea or you will have to make it over again.

 

I dont find starting over boring or repetitive though. Always a new area to start, new bases to design, new strategies to try.

 

RNG sucks. You either get what ya need and then it offers zero replayability. Or you dont and now you have to play without some of the toys the game offers. I guess if you like not having key parts of the game, like when I went a full season with no Calipers and could not make ammo, then that's cool. But I'll take perks any day. Ya know the systems that rewards you if you do the work.

 

Imagine working a job where you might not get paid. They spin a wheel and if your picked they dont pay you. That's RNG.

[Hek Harris]

Imagine working a job where you might not get paid. They spin a wheel and if your picked they dont pay you. That's RNG.

Sounds not a very good example I would never accept a job at that conditions

 

RNG is for me the best thing is that game. What's the opposite of RNG ? Scripted games, marked trails, lack of replayability, some things like that. The thing is you fight more against RNG than against zombies. Of course, it can be a real hassle if you don't find THE item you're looking for. But frankly 1) it's rare it happens for a long time and 2) there's other way to get an item.

 

Last solution, as I used to say to players on my forum : "Please, never hesitate to tell me what you absolutely need, I'll explain you how to live without it." ^^.

[leaderdog]

There's not enough time in the day to cut out the early game with all the restarts. I attempt to make the early game fun for the viewers on restarts. Either with humor, cookyness, or new ideas for the game or future bases.

 

The videos have been doing well, views are up so I'd assume I'm having some success. But your right the early game over and over is going to get old for the viewers. It's even worse because i dont want to start any of my new base ideas because I'll be restarting again soon. It sucks to get halfway through making a base to have to start over. You have either burned that base idea or you will have to make it over again.

 

I dont find starting over boring or repetitive though. Always a new area to start, new bases to design, new strategies to try.

 

RNG sucks. You either get what ya need and then it offers zero replayability. Or you dont and now you have to play without some of the toys the game offers. I guess if you like not having key parts of the game, like when I went a full season with no Calipers and could not make ammo, then that's cool. But I'll take perks any day. Ya know the systems that rewards you if you do the work.

 

Imagine working a job where you might not get paid. They spin a wheel and if your picked they dont pay you. That's RNG.

 

I'm glad your views are up and enjoying the game then.

 

I guess we'll see how well the game does with it's continued path, it's already seen lots of people turned off from it.

 

As for your RNG analogy, come on that's just silly can't compare this to a job. I don't think there has been a play through that I didn't get what I needed. And didn't they eventually add the ability to make calipers?

 

But then I don't waste my time building a base until I'm set up pretty reasonable with items and what not, usually day 5 or 6 I worry about the base and on day 7 I build it. You have to balance everything just for your viewers. But I will waste my nights mining and tree chopping, but otherwise it's straight kill and loot. That part hasn't changed. But this alpha feels exceedingly less rewarding, enjoyable, and fun. I love many things they added, poi's (Although a bit many) Pretty sure not every single house in a town had time to set up an obstacle course with pallets in them.

 

It's just the perks are simply boring game mechanic. It sort of works in Fallout because it was from the beginning part of the game, it was training. It was in the pip boy that some how flowed with the game.

 

But I'm not going to win anyone over with fun, since everyone has their own vision of fun. This no longer is fun, sadly. 1800 hours later and one alpha can rip the enjoyment out of the game.

[iBane]

The gun will do more damage if modded. A guy who has more perception and perks in that gun will do even more damage.

 

A couple of questions:

 

1) Does SexRex provide faster stamina regen all the time or only when running? (Description implies only when running).

 

2) Will the next update require a clean start?

 

Thanks!

[Kage848]

Sounds not a very good example I would never accept a job at that conditions

 

RNG is for me the best thing is that game. What's the opposite of RNG ? Scripted games, marked trails, lack of replayability, some things like that. The thing is you fight more against RNG than against zombies. Of course, it can be a real hassle if you don't find THE item you're looking for. But frankly 1) it's rare it happens for a long time and 2) there's other way to get an item.

 

Last solution, as I used to say to players on my forum : "Please, never hesitate to tell me what you absolutely need, I'll explain you how to live without it." ^^.

 

One thing I can live without is RNG.

 

Youd never accept a job like that yet you crave to work in 7 days and not have a guaranteed reward?

 

The opposite of RNG is the carrot and the stick. You chase and work and farm and get the carrot. With your RNG game sometimes the work is there and not the carrot.

 

We will not agree on this lol.

[thraka]

One thing I can live without is RNG.

 

Youd never accept a job like that yet you crave to work in 7 days and not have a guaranteed reward?

 

The opposite of RNG is the carrot and the stick. You chase and work and farm and get the carrot. With your RNG game sometimes the work is there and not the carrot.

 

We will not agree on this lol.

 

This is why games are supposed to actually be fun, such that there is no work being done. You are entertained by the very process that advances you in a good game.

[Kage848]

I'm glad your views are up and enjoying the game then.

 

I guess we'll see how well the game does with it's continued path, it's already seen lots of people turned off from it.

 

As for your RNG analogy, come on that's just silly can't compare this to a job. I don't think there has been a play through that I didn't get what I needed. And didn't they eventually add the ability to make calipers?

 

But then I don't waste my time building a base until I'm set up pretty reasonable with items and what not, usually day 5 or 6 I worry about the base and on day 7 I build it. You have to balance everything just for your viewers. But I will waste my nights mining and tree chopping, but otherwise it's straight kill and loot. That part hasn't changed. But this alpha feels exceedingly less rewarding, enjoyable, and fun. I love many things they added, poi's (Although a bit many) Pretty sure not every single house in a town had time to set up an obstacle course with pallets in them.

 

It's just the perks are simply boring game mechanic. It sort of works in Fallout because it was from the beginning part of the game, it was training. It was in the pip boy that some how flowed with the game.

 

But I'm not going to win anyone over with fun, since everyone has their own vision of fun. This no longer is fun, sadly. 1800 hours later and one alpha can rip the enjoyment out of the game.

 

I cant be worried about others not liking the direction a17 is going. Of course I wish everyone loved the game but that's not going to happen. Furthermore I don't think it's the mark of a great game. There are tons of games out there that are hugely popular that I think are trash. I can only speak for myself.

 

Maybe the work analogy was a bit off. But you get my meaning I hope. I did 80+ videos without the calipers. If it's TRUE rng there will be times you dont find stuff. If your always going to find everything then what's the difference between perks and books?

 

We both spend our first week the same. Easy fine for me. But the constant restarts have made it feel way more grindy. Not tfp fault, I know what I'm getting into here with ea and exp. But still.

 

I dont even remember what we were discussing lol. I hope tfp make some changes so we can both enjoy the game. I hope you get enough of what you want to make it fun again.

[Hek Harris]

We will not agree on this lol.

And it's fine(*) : different opinions, but playing the same game

 

 

(*) as long as RNG is not amputated from the game

[meganoth]

I...vehemently disagree. I haven't played a lot of single player. I've always played with friends (until A17 of course because no one wants to play with me), but in A16, we all had our roles. I would be the scavenger/blunt force trauma dealer. My man would be the miner and builder. Another friend would be the science guy making us the best minibikes. Someone else would be the armour crafter gearing us up. Someone else would be the sharp shooter. etc etc. There was a world of choice, but still quite a lot of leeway to be a fairly successful 'Jack of All Trades' come end game.

 

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?64459-MM-you-took-away-our-options-and-forced-grind

 

It mirrors your objections. The strange thing, that thread was at the time of A16 experimental and talking about how A16 was removing any choices and the slow progressions and no fun and stamina. "You have deliberately removed player choices" "grindfest" "Hitting trees for hours"

 

The wheel of time has made a full turn and we are at the same spot, with a not really balanced version where some players feel getting the short end. But finally A16.4 was at least balanced enough to be remembered fondly now.

 

In my co-op game with 3 others we have a specialized crafter, a miner/builder and two players mainly scavenging, but I also took over the garden. But we all do quests together and help with building the bases. Maybe your co-op players need just to wait until a more balanced version is out.

 

The role of armor crafter and minibike crafter is in our game the same person. Not that armor crafting was really an important role in A16, everyone had bought the best armor from the trader. And minibike, you built it once for everyone and that's it.

 

1) Does SexRex provide faster stamina regen all the time or only when running? (Description implies only when running).

 

1) SexRex is now only for melee and mining. You are probably thinking about Cardio. And yes, Cardio (should) only increase regen while running. But I didn't actually test it in detail but found running easier with the perk

[Kage848]

This is why games are supposed to actually be fun, such that there is no work being done. You are entertained by the very process that advances you in a good game.

 

It is fun to mine. I do enjoy it. But its too much sometimes. I just dont wanna do it with stone tools. Mining with iron, cool. Mining with stone, not cool. It's ok for arrows, stone tools and stuff. But if I gotta build any real base mining with stone tools? Nah F that. It's not so bad now though. Iron tools come fast enough.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

And it's fine(*) : different opinions, but playing the same game

 

 

(*) as long as RNG is not amputated from the game

 

I still need 2 beakers, a tool and dye set and many many mods. Rng will live on my friend lol