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Jost Amman

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Posts posted by Jost Amman

    Hard-core survival description on Steam store

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    18 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

    Well that what you wrote can be done very casual or very hardcore - yes hunger exist but can be done in very casual style like in minecraft or very hard like metal gear solid or green hell. So Yes this mechanics are in game but it would be totaly diffrent --> car from 1940 and car from 2022 are both cars but so diffrent about that how works, complexed etc. that you can say that car from 1940 and from 2022 are totaly diffrents machines with this same name and doing similiar thing.

    I think you lost the thread of this discussion in this reply... we weren't arguing about how easy or difficult 7D2D is or would be with modifications... we were arguing if ANY level of survival mechanics is already in the game so that the game can be called "hardcore survival" without telling a blatant lie.

     

    If the only way to have survival mechanics in, would have been by modding (like in the Goblin example) then TheFlu and pApA^LeGBa would have a point.

    But as Roland said, survival mechanics are already in the game without modding, so his point is that it's just a question of how you define "hardcore survival".

    0

    Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    34 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

    You could also have this little problem as a single player in A21. And there you don't have anyone who can supply you with better equipment. You have to either craft it, buy it or find it.

     

    Balancing the game will not be easy. There are players who like to loot non-stop, but there are also players who like to build or spend time in the mine. The question that concerns me is, what is the player type that the balancing will be based on? How many days a week will I have to set aside my hammer and pickaxe to scavenge?

     

    I don't see the problem in single-player, frankly.

     

    If one needs better gear, they can focus on crafting or looting.

    I'd go on "magazine hunting" until I'm able to get good enough gear by crafting it, and I'll also invest in the perks I want to be better at and have better gear for.

    While I'm doing that, I'd be also sometimes finding better gear out of luck. If I don't, I can still use crafting or buy something from the trader.

     

    In SP it's a no-brainer, honestly. I can see, however, that if you're playing with people who don't like to share with you, or they just don't care enough about the group, then you'll need to take things back in your hands and go out looting for a bit. And, yes, balancing it the right way, as always, will be pivotal.

     

    1 hour ago, pattyboy27 said:

    You don't find it at all a coincidence that you apparently consistently get perceived as attacking people? "How sad". Seriously, spare us the indignant 'back in my day' stuff too please. It was a very dismissive response from your own singular experience against someone who was trying to consider the wider player base and not just themselves.

    You don't get it, don't you? People think I'm always aggressive because they don't have a clue what BLUNT means. I deliver what I need to say with no flowers and no embellishments. Some people can't go past the "form" and get offended. Well, I'm not going to change the way I deliver my opinions just to appease to some giant egos or some delicate souls.

     

    My response was dismissive, in part, because (case in point) what Khalagar is asking the devs to change at this stage of development is preposterous.

    If you can't understand that, then you're delusional as well.

     

    1 hour ago, pattyboy27 said:

    FWIW and back on topic I agree with you Khalager. Never understood the lack of consultation or any development framework / end-game coherent direction with updates, which end up being redesigned 2 patches later because 'ah crap, that didn't work'. I really love that TFP have committed to this game for so long, but at this stage it's just round and round in circles and stompin on old ground.

    That's because you're not part of TFP team and can't understand why they made each decision they made. It's also part of the normal development process, especially in Steam's Early Access, to change the game how many times you like if you don't like feature X or Y.

     

    You call it "lack of direction"... I call it experimentation on to find what the better game mechanics are. As I told someone else before, TFP have very clear what game they'd like to create. What they changed several times (for different reasons) is the specific form of the implementation of their idea. They want an RPG? Yes. They put LBD as a placeholder, then they switched to V1 of the new attribute/perk system, then they refined and evolved it, and so on and so forth...

     

    People look from the outside and make judgements and assumptions based on what they perceive, but not based on the truth of internal development workings.

    1

    Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    @pattyboy27: I see you don't know the history of this forum, apparently... I and @Beelzebubs Ghost had a lengthy discussion on something, in a different thread, and when I gave my reply point by point, all he could say was basically that I wasn't good enough for him to reply. Then the same person, comes here and accuses the players in this forum of being apologists for the devs. ... Remember: if you believe your opinions have merit, you won't be afraid to confront with others.

     

    I explained to Khalagar why I disagree with the changes he/she requested, so I'm far from dismissive, and my opinions are my own.

    In the eyes of some people, anybody who agrees with the devs' choices is an apologist, jeez!

    They can't even fathom that one can agree with TFP because they consider it impossible!

     

    :facepalm:

    3

    Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    57 minutes ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

    Every time I look at these forums and some of these responses I lose more and more interest in the game. Developer apologists and those intolerant or dismissive of legitimate objections and concerns create precisely the environment in which developers can continue; in those applicable cases, to go on ruining their product.

    Says the guy who can't reply to counterarguments when they're given.

    I'm from a generation where everything can be discussed, argued and criticized.

     

    I see nowadays there's plenty of people that see open discussions as attacks... how sad this is the new norm.

    4

    Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

    in General Discussion

    Posted · Edited by Jost Amman (see edit history)

    1 hour ago, Khalagar said:
    2 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

    Well, why are you playing 7D2D at all, then?

     

    Because I like the game and am allowed to without needing to justify it to you

    I was just trying to point out how illogical are your requests.

     

    1 hour ago, Khalagar said:
    2 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

    Judging by all the "modifications" you want to the game, you should play a completely different game in the first place.

     

    Not really, since a lot of the issues are things that have are being actively changed by the devs from past versions that already worked. Also, this game is in alpha and now is precisely when I'm allowed to, and encouraged to, give feedback and opinions on the direction of the game and offer my thoughts on it. I'm sorry you don't think I should do this on the game forum for feedback, perhaps you should add me to the ignore list if this forum has such a feature so you can browse in peace without seeing feedback you don't approve of

    No, they're not. You have been talking about completely scrapping and rewriting the attribute and skill system.

    I can't see how that's going to happen, even in your (and your friends') wildest dreams.

     

    And by the way, I don't want to ignore you, I'm just discussing something like everybody else... if you can't stand criticism on what you write then don't post.

     

    1 hour ago, Khalagar said:
    2 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

    from my perspective

     

    I mean I didn't ask your perspective tho.

    This is a discussion forum, isn't it?

    So why is it ok for you to give opinions and not for me?

     

    1 hour ago, Khalagar said:

    I really am happy that you don't see these things as an issue, hopefully you can continue to enjoy the game in your own way, but clearly others do have their own issues and are very much so allowed to talk about them without need to ask for your permission

    Except that if they change those mechanics the way you ask, it'll make the game worse for me (Single Player).

     

    As I said before, but apparently you let it slide over your head, as long as they keep SP and MP rules one and the same, balancing the game for every group of players and for different needs, will never work. We'll keep fighting each other because what you want and need in Multiplayer, is the opposite of what I want and need in single player.

     

    1 hour ago, Khalagar said:

    You're more than free to give your perspective on my own perspective, but saying I need to just find a different game to play because you don't play the game in coop while I do is a pretty terrible take when I'm talking about changes that are particularly damaging to the many people playing in multiplayer or on servers etc

    I'd never say that the way you're reading it, let me clarify: you're asking to completely rewrite integral parts of the game (again, take the attributes and perks system change you want), and by asking that you should know there's ZERO chance they're going to modify the game that way before release.

     

    The attribute system is going to stay, the perk system will only receive a little rebalance, probably. If you think what you're asking is going to even be considered at this point in development, then you're either delusional, or you're just complaining to complain.

     

    That's why I told you that you're asking basically to play a different game.

     

    2 hours ago, Khalagar said:

    That aside, I do hope TFP uses this time to rework the attribute system to actually make sense as well. I've played most survival games out, and never seen such a weird attribute system that is confusing to new players / anti-common sense.

     

    57 minutes ago, Pyrrhrick said:

    I genuinely can't believe you think it should only be developed around the singleplayer experience. More than that, you think it should be developed around YOUR single player experience.

    No. I'm just defending the view of the game I like.

     

    As long as the changes you're asking for, don't impact the gameplay I like in single player, then I don't care. But as soon as I see that somebody else asks changes that will impact negatively the game in general (SP included), then I'm more than in my right to voice my dissent. I can't imagine why you can't understand that and why you're so surprised.

     

    57 minutes ago, Pyrrhrick said:

    Also your 'suggestions' won't work as magazines drop related to your attribution. So your looters are going to be finding magazines relevant to them, not to your base builder.

    No. It doesn't work that way. They'll find any type of magazines, and a bit more of what they've perked into.

    As usual, people make a bucket out of a drop.

     

    57 minutes ago, Pyrrhrick said:

    Your response though : "don't care, doesnt effect me, go play something else, your complaints are invalid."

     

    How about not stifling feedback in a place specifically designed for feedback?

    Khalagar is asking to completely rewrite the perk system (and the loot mechanics?)

    That would impact my game, so I'm in my right to express dissent (as an opinion).

     

    Also, I don't understand why you're all so ruffled by my post.

    How much do you think my opinion on your feedback accounts to for the devs? ZERO

    So, don't worry, be happy, whatever feedback you're giving is not even remotely diminished by my personal opinion.

     

    57 minutes ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

    Seems even with pure reason and good feedback you still get pushback.

    And by "pushback" you mean... counterarguments?

    I didn't know her post was the Pravda, sorry.

     

    1

    Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

    in General Discussion

    Posted · Edited by Jost Amman (see edit history)

    1 hour ago, Khalagar said:

    Vedui just put out a video on the A21 learn by looting and actually brought up the exact same issues I did a few weeks ago

     

     

     

    IMO it's worth a watch for those who don't understand why I think the learn by looting system is going to gimp a lot of playstyles and players, since it is basically the same exact issue Skyrim has with the "The Draugr Were Training " meme. Building your base? The zombies were training. Digging in your mine? The Zombies were training. Crafting some gunpowder and cooking some food? The zombies were training

     

    Anytime not spent looting 24/7 is now "sub-optimal time usage" which doesn't directly translate to the player improving. You'll get exp while building your base, but all that exp will do is make the gamestage go up without directly translating to you getting better equipment to fight the stronger zombies. Vedui also brought up the exact same issue I made with coop too, where you will get left far behind your friends, and you can't expect them to bring back magazines for you because they will take up an absurd amount of inventory space which is already a major issue

     

    I don't want to be gloom and doom since TFP are usually fairly rational about some of their changes, but this is one I think they need to elaborate a lot more on, because even just reading about it on paper and thinking about it for more than a few seconds has you go "Wait, but what about X?".

     

     

     

    That aside, I do hope TFP uses this time to rework the attribute system to actually make sense as well. I've played most survival games out, and never seen such a weird attribute system that is confusing to new players / anti-common sense.

     

    Raised your strength to max level? I bet you can carry a ton of weight and hit like a truck with melee weapons! Well actually no, you just do more damage with shotguns for some reason. Raised your agility to max? I bet you are fast AF boi and can jump over the moon! Well actually no, you just do more damage with SMGs. But wait, your endurance is max level, I bet you are REALLY tanky and durable and have the stamina of a god! Well actually no, you just do more damage with machine guns

     

    Even my friend who has like 700+ hours still doesn't really know how the perks and attributes work at all, and always says stuff like "Oh I can just run over there real fast, I put several points in agility so I move really fast"

     

     

    IMO we need the perks to just make more sense so there aren't wasted points, like if you are wanting the mining perks but are planning to use a sniper, every single point you wasted on strength is . . . wasted, because for some reason weapon types are tied to attributes and the base attribute itself provides absolutely nothing for "off attribute" weapons.

     

    Would be way better if the attributes gave flat stats like +health / stamina / block damage etc, and then if the trees had it so like Strength was all the melee and tool perks, Perception was all the ranged weapon perks, Agility was all the move speed perks etc. That way you could put a few points into agility to make sure you did enough damage with the gun you wanted to use, while also putting points into intelligence so you can cook food that won't kill you

     

    If they did it like that, they could do a lot of neat things like make it so you could do a "strength build" and potentially add a shield or something for people to be able to go full melee and endurance and wade into zombies like a juggernaut, or go a dex type build with ranged + agility to be agile and kite enemies etc. The current system just makes it really weird to do basically any kind of build besides using the arbitrary weapon the devs thought made sense to couple together, like a heavy machine gun and . . . . . . .  brass knuckles??? So if you are like "but I want to use a heavy machine gun and a knife =(" you are SOL

    Well, why are you playing 7D2D at all, then?

     

    Judging by all the "modifications" you want to the game, you should play a completely different game in the first place.

    The only other option I see is to ask someone to create an overhaul mod for you, with all this stuff exactly as you like it.

     

    And as I said the other time... these problems you see only apply to MP/COOP, so, from my perspective, no, I don't want them to change anything.

     

    Having said that, I don't see much of a problem anyway: your friends don't need to come back to base to give you the mags, they just collect them on the spot, put them in a chest on the road, and then you go fetch them when you have time.

     

    As for the zombies getting better and you not having good enough loot, again, why aren't your comrades providing you with some stuff you may need? Aren't you doing your part for the group? Why aren't they helping you? If they don't, then don't craft anything for them or ask better gear as "payment" for your high level crafting. It's a silly situation IMO, easily solved by some more collaboration in the party.

    2

    Hard-core survival description on Steam store

    in General Discussion

    Posted · Edited by Jost Amman (see edit history)

    3 hours ago, theFlu said:

    Would that be #hardcore_survival though; I'm not convinced. It's not that far off from at least an 'honest' survival game. Having a little more "urgent" survival issues, for a lot longer at the start of a game, would probably be enough for my judgement. At least spend the day one actually solving some survival issues..

    If most new players would find it too hard, TFP could use the same "protection time" they already used for weather and clothing.

    Maybe you could be immune to hunger and thirst effects until you reach Level N?

     

    6 hours ago, Roland said:

    Man you have me pegged as all kinds of nefarious today. That is absolutely not what I was doing. I didn’t know you had given up on pushing the game to change. Especially after you agreed and liked the suggested changes that Jost posted. <shrug> At any rate, I’m not trying to attack your motivation. I thought I understood it but I guess I was wrong.

    Actually, that was probably my fault... I saw the discussion was steering towards "hardcore gameplay" (which is much wider than "hardcore survival"), and I asked people to keep on-topic because my original post was about the store description.

     

    But I don't mind a little bit of leeway on the topic, just please don't make it a full-on discussion about game difficulty in general. The issue is, that right now there are no settings in 7D2D that can really change the difficulty of the true survival part (hunger, thirst, temperature effects, injuries...).

     

    1

    This is the kind of point of view that makes me go facepalm about some reviewers.

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    3 hours ago, Matt115 said:

    During story missions? Yeah but after "farm" mission you have to go whatever you want - there is a lot of thing to do - Nero outpost, zombie hordes, cards, bandits outposts etc.

    So, after you complete the "story mission" (which after a couple of hours of gameplay I was still in, apparently) you're free to go and do whatever you like?

     

    3 hours ago, Matt115 said:

    "remix of fixed game mechanic" - what do you expected? you are not scientist leader or something like that - you are just guy who doing jobs to survive another day. This works like 7dtd traders missions. it's change after few hours - you probably refounded after 1- 1,5 h. 

    No, I'm not talking about that. By "remix of fixed game mechanics" I mean that those FPS/RPGs like that one use always the same restricted engine, which will only allow to interact with the world the way THEY decided in the "editor".

     

    If you want to burn something, you can only burn nests because they're fixed points they decided you could burn (no real fire mechanics there).

    If you want to dismantle or loot something, you can only do that on specific "props" the devs decided you could loot.

    Honestly, after playing 7D2D, I felt severely restricted in the way that game devs wanted me to play. :noidea:

    0

    This is the kind of point of view that makes me go facepalm about some reviewers.

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    2 hours ago, Matt115 said:

    Days gone - good world and environment building, brave in logical and justifiable way, a big focus on details, interesting characters, a lot of lore,

    Please, NO! I had to refund that game because of the linear maps and restricted world.

    It's just the same old, same old, remix of fixed game mechanics and almost linear gameplay.

     

    I was in the middle of a "story mission" and wandered a bit too far from the "intended" path... then the "mission failed" message appeared! WHAT!!?? --> Refunded

    0

    Hard-core survival description on Steam store

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    Just to clarify, in case I was misinterpreted. I'm not saying that description is "a scam", I'm not saying that TFP are lying by saying that.

    I'm just saying that until the devs fix and/or improve some of the survival mechanics, that description is not currently in line with how most of the survival elements play.

     

    Fixes and improvements needed, in my opinion, are:

    1. Make effects from cold/hot weather significant again (make clothing great again!)
    2. Reintroduce diseases and illnesses: stay out in the cold too much? You get a cold! Stay more? You can even get the Flu.
    3. Make hunger and thirst have more relevant effects: dizzy effect when very thirsty and lower stats when very hungry.
    4. Introduce mental health: the old Starvation mod had this part done very well (if you go insane, you start hearing REAL voices whispering!)
    5. (Re)introduce extreme weather events (depending on biome): sand storms in the desert, snow storms in the snow biome, lightning strikes in the woods!
    6. (Re)introduce a wellness system: if you eat a balanced diet you'll be full strength, but if you only eat meat or if you only eat veggies you'll get weak and then ill.
    3

    Hard-core survival description on Steam store

    in General Discussion

    Posted · Edited by Jost Amman (see edit history)

    11 minutes ago, Roland said:

    This is how I would rank 7 Days to Die on several elements on a casual to hardcore spectrum. Happy to discuss my reasoning with anyone who disagrees and would move the sliders. :)

     

    graph.PNG

    The problem with your survival rating, currently, is that IMO some parts could probably fit in the hardcore rating, but some other parts have been completely nerfed. So, as long as TFP are going, for example, to fix the effect of temperature, humidity and add illnesses along with that, then the hardcore rating would be deserved.

     

    However, if all survival mechanics will stay as they are now until release, then the hardcore survival description IMO should be considered inaccurate.

     

    1

    Hard-core survival description on Steam store

    in General Discussion

    Posted · Edited by Jost Amman (see edit history)

    Though, to be honest, using "hardcore survival" in the description, will then entitle players to rant on the forums whenever anything doesn't fit a survival simulation. By using the hardcore word, you're also implying that the game is heavily shifted toward the survival simulation, more than the casual survival experience.

     

    Cold weather doesn't freeze you to death? -> Not a hardcore survival game!

    Don't get the flu when I stay out in the rain all day? -> Not a hardcore survival game!

    Magic candies that let you jump off a building with no harm? -> Not a hardcore survival game!

     

    IMO the issue is not much about "false advertisement", but more about player expectations based on the description.

     

    1
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