Bubbahotetp Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 I sensed a great disturbance in the Force. You called? I love this type of response. Let me try this in rapid fire: - Just because you can do something, doesn't mean that you should. - Lots of abusive partners have said, "I do this [abuse you] because I love you." That's just ♥♥♥♥ed up. - Entitlement doesn't look good on anybody. Bait succeeded: Here, let me give you this - I'm a customer. They are selling a product. I give customer feedback. Who are you again? Why are you telling me things you yourself should actually be doing? If you think this is comparable to an abusive relationship then you have issues I can't help you with. Maybe you should see someone, because this might be a sign of *projection* (look it up, it's a psycological term, it might give you some insight into why you feel this way about my opinion). Move along. I wasn't asking you - you're a customer like myself, you can have your own opinions about the game - but you should understand this very clearly: you having an opinon about my opinion as a customer - THAT, dear person I don't care about - THAT is entitlement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCrook1028 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 You get judged for what you are actually doing! So there is no "Hold on! Wait! This was just a test!" if you mess up! TFP have made the choice to release a17x in this state and now they are paying for it! You keep missing the point. A17 IS NOT RELEASED. It IS a work in progress. YOU as a customer have to bend over backwards and bypass the normal update system to explicitly download the experimental version and take part in the broken,incomplete buggy mess that every experimental version is. Frankly it's rather amazing how playable A17e is considering the absolutely massive changes done to the core systems. You're really close to the rule line btw. Most of your post is not even about the game, it is about behavior of the mods and the "obligation" of TFP in how they communicate with you. Both of those topics are explicitly NOT allowed topics for the forum I believe? Some people are not cut out to play experimental, you are clearly one of them. My advice? Wait for stable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedo Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Hahaha. I am a psychologist. No customer should shout at or curse at or otherwise verbally abuse the employees of a company. Anyway, your response to my criticism was textbook. "Bait succeeded"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kam R. Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Found this while goin' through some of my A16 screenshots. Not sure how, but I feel it's relevant in some way or another. :] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzHawkeye Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Found this while goin' through some of my A16 screenshots. Not sure how, but I feel it's relevant in some way or another. :] I would hope that's not what's happening here, or the value of the forums would be much diminished. That said, I disagree with Bubbahotetp (strongly in fact) that TFP has any obligation to listen to an irate customer. I've been in positions before where I've told a customer to come back when they were prepared to talk in a civil tone, and would do so without hesitation again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maynard69 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Found this while goin' through some of my A16 screenshots. Not sure how, but I feel it's relevant in some way or another. :] If they didnt listen and act on feedback, they wouldnt have changed the systems the way they have. "We dont like spam crafting" (skill/perk change) "We dont like having everything by day xx" (level gates) "Other people underground cheesing hordes is stupid" (ground depth and digging zombie) Now those same people are whining about all of the changes. When you buy a vacuum cleaner does the little card for customer feedback say "How would you engineer this vacuum cleaner to fit your needs better?" Nope it says "Are you satisfied with your purchase?" "How often do you buy new vacuums?" (so they can send you a coupon or advertisement at around that time) and stuff to that effect. They could care less how you would make a vacuum because the end customer is a vacuum making noob. They sure arent gonna make theirs any different because of how you would do it lol Thinking you have rights to decision making process of producing a product because you bought it is literally entitlement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubbahotetp Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 So, you're arguing then for TFP to no longer release Experimental builds? How does that benefit the community? Hi! No. I wasn't arguing that. Let me clarify: In your response to the OP you said something along the lines that people shouldn't complain but have faith (just a free interpretation). You can wish that, anybody can, but in reality that doesn't work too well, that wishing bit. Customers will give straight up reactions to what they are getting, no matter the intentions, no matter the state of things. I've seen that over and over in my own work. They take what they are getting "as is" and respond to it, for better or worse. The customer practically has the same mind as a little kid - if you take their nose into your fist, they lost their nose! The customer can't see behind the curtain unless you open up the curtains (or your fist) and show what's really going on. If you want to keep secrets, or have good reason not to say too much, then the natural reaction to that is going to be speculation and uncertainty. Those will express themselves through, for example, worry or frustration, as many fans on here are doing. It's a pain if you actually have very good intentions and a lot of plans because you know better that good things are ahead but you're not in a position to divulge everything for many reasons. It's a little customer crisis and you have to keep people believing in you through that period until you can show them: "Look, we fixed it!". That's kind of something all of us, we customers, you mods and the devs are having in common - we're all together waiting for that moment. Who knows if it will come but that's why we're all here. Anyway - experimental builds are fine. In the same way as EA is fine. It's a funding concept. It works for some. Great. What I'm saying (and this is finally the point I am trying to make) what ever has happened between a16.4 and a17x has created both positive and negative feedback. That is natural. Even if your update is 99.9% perfect, there is aways some fan who'll be disappointed with something that changed. However: it is the state of the x that has also caused quite a bit of the negative response, speculation and uncertainty. I am pretty sure that TFP felt pressed to release the x as a one month test ahead of christmas sales. I too would think that Christmas is one of the best periods to sell your product and that you need something fresh and new in order to actually get people interested. That's good business. However - and I can only speculate - maybe TFP bit a larger chunk here than they had time to chew. Maybe the engine switch was harder than they thought and they are beind in their schedule and had to release the x on the date they did, no matter the state of the game, just so they would manage to make the christmas sales? That's the core of the problem. I'm not analyzing their reasons here, I'm saying that the a17x is so rough that it has left a bad taste in many a mouth, and to you I'm saying: That's not the customers' fault. That's why I spoke to you. It's not the customers fault! But you really know that. I'm sure. So we're not arguing. I can understand if you're getting frustrated with us idiots on here sometimes. But it's not good to make the customer feel the heat. The customer can do that - that's the stupid bit, but you can't do it back - not if you want to look professional! They paid, they can say what ever they want! Them buying the product creates both a relationship and expectations. That's why this forum exists in the first place. Anyway... For what ever reason, this build so far hasn't given the intended reaction (because an intended reaction is as positive as possible) and things went more sour for many than anybody could have hoped for, so now the devs have to deal with the situation they see fit and continue in the cat and mouse game of "release and opinion". I'm hope I could clear this up. Let's see what you said in the next post... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maynard69 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Hi! No. I wasn't arguing that. Let me clarify: In your response to the OP you said something along the lines that people shouldn't complain but have faith (just a free interpretation). You can wish that, anybody can, but in reality that doesn't work too well, that wishing bit. Customers will give straight up reactions to what they are getting, no matter the intentions, no matter the state of things. I've seen that over and over in my own work. They take what they are getting "as is" and respond to it, for better or worse. The customer practically has the same mind as a little kid - if you take their nose into your fist, they lost their nose! The customer can't see behind the curtain unless you open up the curtains (or your fist) and show what's really going on. If you want to keep secrets, or have good reason not to say too much, then the natural reaction to that is going to be speculation and uncertainty. Those will express themselves through, for example, worry or frustration, as many fans on here are doing. It's a pain if you actually have very good intentions and a lot of plans because you know better that good things are ahead but you're not in a position to divulge everything for many reasons. It's a little customer crisis and you have to keep people believing in you through that period until you can show them: "Look, we fixed it!". That's kind of something all of us, we customers, you mods and the devs are having in common - we're all together waiting for that moment. Who knows if it will come but that's why we're all here. Anyway - experimental builds are fine. In the same way as EA is fine. It's a funding concept. It works for some. Great. What I'm saying (and this is finally the point I am trying to make) what ever has happened between a16.4 and a17x has created both positive and negative feedback. That is natural. Even if your update is 99.9% perfect, there is aways some fan who'll be disappointed with something that changed. However: it is the state of the x that has also caused quite a bit of the negative response, speculation and uncertainty. I am pretty sure that TFP felt pressed to release the x as a one month test ahead of christmas sales. I too would think that Christmas is one of the best periods to sell your product and that you need something fresh and new in order to actually get people interested. That's good business. However - and I can only speculate - maybe TFP bit a larger chunk here than they had time to chew. Maybe the engine switch was harder than they thought and they are beind in their schedule and had to release the x on the date they did, no matter the state of the game, just so they would manage to make the christmas sales? That's the core of the problem. I'm not analyzing their reasons here, I'm saying that the a17x is so rough that it has left a bad taste in many a mouth, and to you I'm saying: That's not the customers' fault. That's why I spoke to you. It's not the customers fault! But you really know that. I'm sure. So we're not arguing. I can understand if you're getting frustrated with us idiots on here sometimes. But it's not good to make the customer feel the heat. The customer can do that - that's the stupid bit, but you can't do it back - not if you want to look professional! They paid, they can say what ever they want! Them buying the product creates both a relationship and expectations. That's why this forum exists in the first place. Anyway... For what ever reason, this build so far hasn't given the intended reaction (because an intended reaction is as positive as possible) and things went more sour for many than anybody could have hoped for, so now the devs have to deal with the situation they see fit and continue in the cat and mouse game of "release and opinion". I'm hope I could clear this up. Let's see what you said in the next post... Nice to see you admit your thought process is that of a 4 year old who thought TFP's stole your nose. Makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubbahotetp Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Well, 2 years (roughly) is a fairly reasonable rough guess, given the reasonable expectation that A18 is the final Alpha. So years away from the final Alpha, I think is a very good bet. 2 years away from final release, yeah, that may be optimistic, but not by too much I'd think. Let's hope. It has been a long, long and rocky road. I definitely think that it's high time all of us move on to new projects. A fresh start with a new game will probably feel really awesome to the team as I bet they are getting pretty tired of inventing the wheel over and over again by now. Peace out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubbahotetp Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 You keep missing the point. A17 IS NOT RELEASED. Uh. ... Wait. ... *YOU* keep missing the point! I'm talking about a17x. Look it up, you even quoted me on it. That is released, is it not? What's the point of releasing an experimental if nobody is supposed to have an opinion on it? Explain that - to somebody who isn't me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Wow, this thread has gotten so bad even MY vag hurts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiote Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Lol. Total dumpster fire. Hey look, I have more posts than the OP now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubbahotetp Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Hahaha. I am a psychologist. No customer should shout at or curse at or otherwise verbally abuse the employees of a company. Anyway, your response to my criticism was textbook. "Bait succeeded"? You baited, I swallowed (nothing Freudian going on there really). But yeah, that gave me quite a chuckle! I didn't expect that (if I was to believe you). But let's assume then. You clearly take your work home with you. Can't blame you. I've been ranting about my own work experience for hours now. Funny however how you equate written discourse on the internet with real life spousal abuse. Funny also to see how you as "a psychologist" don't stand above making such a schoddy comparison and make such a lame, "on par with teenager" argument in order to step above me. I don't see that working for you too well and am more inclined to think that you're a troll. You seem to lack what I would expect from a real psychologist. And what would that add to your point anyway other than an attempt at argument from authority. Nah. I'm neither impressed nor convinced. What ever. None of us are here because we're paid for it. What shouting are you referring to? I was deliberatly leaving out capital texting. I emphasized a lot however since in my walls of text the point I'm trying to make can often get muddled. I'm not verbally abusing the employees. I'm not even verbally abusing the moderators (which, for nitpicking's sake aren't employees). If I'm verbally abusing anybody it's people who are on par with myself who think that I have no right to express myself. I have an issue with that and am expressing that just as much as they are expressing stuff about my opinion. You know - the thing is this, and I don't think many have realized that here yet: I don't really go to pick fights with anybody in the audience. I express my issues with TFP, their product, their customer service, I give my opinion on the mods if I have to, but I don't willingly go out of my way to pick on other customers like me. Sometimes I say stuff in response to what they say, but usually I keep it civil. Now get this: if however they come to me and blow themselves up and try to tell me what I'm supposed to be doing or what I'm supposed to be thinking or saying - that's when I get in the mood! Nobody on par with me gets to tell me how to act and react. They can talk to me, they can suggest, but they can't tell me what to do. Sometimes I respond to that, and not always kindly. And I'm not losing any sleep over it. - - - Updated - - - Nice to see you admit your thought process is that of a 4 year old who thought TFP's stole your nose. Makes sense. Damn. You couldn't have cut down that quote one bit, could you? Anyway - that's exactly what I'm talking about everybody - that right there. Whoop, nose gone, immediate response without understanding anything that was beind what I was saying. Thanks for playing! *thumbs up* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzHawkeye Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Hi! No. I wasn't arguing that. Let me clarify: In your response to the OP you said something along the lines that people shouldn't complain but have faith (just a free interpretation). You can wish that, anybody can, but in reality that doesn't work too well, that wishing bit. Customers will give straight up reactions to what they are getting, no matter the intentions, no matter the state of things. I've seen that over and over in my own work. They take what they are getting "as is" and respond to it, for better or worse. If I've said that anywhere, it's news to me. That its Experimental doesn't mean people shouldn't provide feedback, even (especially?) critical feedback, in fact, the whole purpose of making Experimental available to the wider playerbase was, if I'm not mistaken, to get that very feedback. What I do personally object to, is when that feedback is put in a vitriolic way, accusing the Developers of any number of insulting accusations, and said feedbacks tone being rationalised as "I'm the customer, so I get to say whatever I want". Nope, when I see feedback like that, I'm quite happy to work and wield the ban hammer down to a little Post-Shawshank-Redemption-Escape-Scene stub if that's what it takes, so that good feedback (that is, constructive feedback, even when highly negative) reaches TFP and informs their decisions going forward, and isn't swamped by ranting and raving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubbahotetp Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 If I've said that anywhere, it's news to me. That its Experimental doesn't mean people shouldn't provide feedback, even (especially?) critical feedback, in fact, the whole purpose of making Experimental available to the wider playerbase was, if I'm not mistaken, to get that very feedback. What I do personally object to, is when that feedback is put in a vitriolic way, accusing the Developers of any number of insulting accusations, and said feedbacks tone being rationalised as "I'm the customer, so I get to say whatever I want". Nope, when I see feedback like that, I'm quite happy to work and wield the ban hammer down to a little Post-Shawshank-Redemption-Escape-Scene stub if that's what it takes, so that good feedback (that is, constructive feedback, even when highly negative) reaches TFP and informs their decisions going forward, and isn't swamped by ranting and raving. Love your response! Thanks! I guess I got you wrong somehow then. But no need to clarify. Thanks also for saying out loud that experimental is for feedback. Maybe now some people on here will actually believe me when I say that myself (I might even keep a quote of yours handy for the future ). I understand if you react to vitriolic feedback. I myself have definitely been a good example of quite harsh commenting on here, especially in the beginning, when I started to get a feel for what this x was about. However, it's sadly quite natural for this kind of stuff to be emotional and it can get so for many reasons. For some it's something they've bonded to and it's an early life experience for them that has suddenly taken a different direction, for others, it's a bond over a long time that has created an expectation me and other long timers have come accustomed to. That always happens, intended or not. And in a weird way it may feel a bit like a break up and a little bit of a crisis that things seem to have changed so much. So it's natural there is this kind of reaction, even though it's not pleasant. That's I think where most of the vitriol comes from when it's directly from customer to dev or mod. However, now add that this isn't email contact we're talking about, but you have a forum that is a pit of hungry bears (at least many on here think they are bears, not... more like... hungry chihuahuas) and you have a battle over any bone thrown down the pit. You get 10 times the anger and vitriol. So it's both. It's a crisis of change and it's the form factor that in my opinion makes this the way it is and maybe not always as informative and balanced as it could be. I wouldn't wanna be in your shoes to be honest. But without the work you guys do (what ever my opinion about that) I think the last bit of sanity would certainly not be found anywhere near here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpacko Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 O love the censorship in this post. Maybe Moby Richard is more politically correct Moby Prick obviously.. or Moby Dong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SylenThunder Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Thread is so off track it's not even funny anymore. Shutting this one down. Thanks for playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.