Dead is dead

[SickPuppy]

It's funny, that's the first time I've heard the idea of a "survive buff" mentioned but it's a clever idea.

 

Thing is TFP vision of a "survive buff" is to make the game stage actually harder as from what I gather the game gets harder the longer you don't die in terms of game stage. So I don't feel very hopeful that something like a survive buff is coming as it clashes with the design philosophy, if that's what they're going for.

 

 

Yes the GS gets harder but we unlock perks to get stronger. So instead of it being a survival buff, tie it into perks. I just stated Better Barter on top of my head as example, but it gives incentive to not die and it would solve the level gate tedium. U die, the discount resets to zero....i can hear the hate coming aleady "How dare u remove the trader discount I worked so hard to earn, I have only 1hours game time u know...."

 

But still, it's an interesting idea, would be a different game mechanic to play with, level gates are annoying.

[Limdood]

what do you mean penalized with a harder gamestage?

 

If i were playing temple run, I'd be bored out of my skull if the game never got harder.

 

You are REWARDED with a higher gamestage for not dying. Gamestage is the representation of your progress to and through content. Dying is PENALIZED by a reduction in gamestage, making it take so much longer to get to those top end zombies and the sense of accomplishment that comes with successfully defending against them.

 

I think your issue is that you view less challenge as a reward. And MORE confusing, is that you expect to recieve LESS challenge in return for overcoming challenges earlier in the game. Not dying in the game can be challenging. If you successfully "don't die," then you progress to higher gamestages and harder zombies, because increasing challenge when you overcome challenge is how games are designed.

 

Once more, the reduced gamestage for dying is a penalty, not a reward.

 

The only thing I wish would happen is that the high end special and irradiated zombies had higher chance for/better loot, but even that feels redundant with the fact that i don't need to keep looting identical guns and weapons to continue to repair mine at top quality.

[RestInPieces]

what do you mean penalized with a harder gamestage?

 

Once more, the reduced gamestage for dying is a penalty, not a reward.

 

In this game, besides anything creativity-related, survival should be the sole reward because every incentive, item, perk revolves around it.

 

The playerLevel factor is something to tune the difficulty according to the character's strength.

The daysAlive factor is something to further tune the difficulty according to the player's "skill".

 

Surely, it's to keep the game interesting and not too punishing. But it's certainly not a reward and it can feel like a penalty. It must exist though, but I am just hoping that when other things get sorted out, "days" will be a part of the equation again, so that these two variables become a little less of a factor for a softer scaling.

 

Edit: Oh and something else - players should NEVER have to think or be concerned about a meta GS number while playing.

[Aldranon]

I think the game should save every morning after horde night, Bringing you back to latest week at death. This way you are punished hard, but you can do things differently to avoid, or reach a gamestage that is INSANELY difficult and that you try every now and then..

 

What do you think ?

 

That or get rid of the "days alive" in the gamestage formula.

No more dead is dead punishment. You might have to bump difficulty setting up to make it interesting.

 

I no longer have any hesitation of modify anything and everything that annoys me. Still experimenting as some of my ideas turn out... meh.

 

My latest is dropping base gun damage a lot and giving huge damage multiplier to head shots to simulate a proper zombie game

[Melandreal]

Some really good responses here now and very interesting reading

I guess I have finally managed to explain myself better lol!!

 

I totally agree, a days alive buff, or better loot drops from our DID boosted gamestage zombies, or get rid of the "days alive" part of the gamestage formula, or long-life trader discounts etc etc all great ideas.

 

I hope the devs consider adding something as a bonus to staying alive, as it is a survival game afterall, trying to survive is the aim of the game

 

It makes me sad to see all these people posting how easy the game is and how easy BM hordes are when they have died dozens of times and the game is recognising they have died a lot, so makes it easier for them. Seems a little 'off' to me at least. Not balanced that well to me anyway. I see them moan about the death debuff, but not much moaning about the easier ride they are getting in the game as a result of dying Well I expect a lot of the posts saying its boring or easy are from people who die a lot?

 

But, as everyone always reminds us, it is in Alpha and it is experimental, hopefully the devs will come up with a better system to calculate gamestage

[Kosmic Kerman]

You were provided a link to a twitch streamer who is playing insane, always run, did. It’s a 2 player coop game. Last I checked they made it to 29 days. A17 changed how you need to build your bases.

[Krougal]

Rather than a reward for staying alive, can we get a participation medal for trying to stay alive.

 

Damn millenials! Why back in my day just surviving was it's own reward, we were thankful when we did survive and we didn't ask for nothing from nobody, no sir.

 

LMAO

[Melandreal]

Damn millenials! Why back in my day just surviving was it's own reward, we were thankful when we did survive and we didn't ask for nothing from nobody, no sir.

 

LMAO

 

ROFL!!!

[Limdood]

In this game, besides anything creativity-related, survival should be the sole reward because every incentive, item, perk revolves around it.

 

The playerLevel factor is something to tune the difficulty according to the character's strength.

The daysAlive factor is something to further tune the difficulty according to the player's "skill".

 

Surely, it's to keep the game interesting and not too punishing. But it's certainly not a reward and it can feel like a penalty. It must exist though, but I am just hoping that when other things get sorted out, "days" will be a part of the equation again, so that these two variables become a little less of a factor for a softer scaling.

 

Edit: Oh and something else - players should NEVER have to think or be concerned about a meta GS number while playing.

 

Exactly, its a game about survival. It's also an endless game. The staple feature of pretty much EVERY endless game out there is to make the game harder and harder until you lose...eventually. And the goal is to see how far you get.

 

This game's goal is to kill you....if the zombies fail to kill you, they will get harder. If they continue to fail to kill you, they will get harder still. It's in the game design. If you are NOT dying, you will face harder challenges than someone on the same difficulty settings if they have died...as it should be. they died, you didn't, so the game gets easier for them since they couldn't handle it and clearly you could.

 

The game is ABOUT surviving. If you survive, you're doing it right, and so the game ramps up the challenge to keep you engaged and interested. If you fail to survive, the game doesn't advance the difficulty and is thus comparatively easier. If you kill yourself to get easier blood moons, then not only do you deal with all of the given death penalties, but you're missing the core concept of the game.

 

It's like playing tag and getting yourself tagged on purpose so that you can rest and not run for a bit. Yeah, its easier that way, but your missing the point of the game...it doesn't mean the game needs to be changed, but maybe watch/play with people whose gameplay style reflects your own? - the same as you would in a game of tag with similar circumstances.

[RestInPieces]

Exactly, its a game about survival. It's also an endless game. The staple feature of pretty much EVERY endless game out there is to make the game harder and harder until you lose...eventually. And the goal is to see how far you get.

 

This game's goal is to kill you....if the zombies fail to kill you, they will get harder. If they continue to fail to kill you, they will get harder still. It's in the game design. If you are NOT dying, you will face harder challenges than someone on the same difficulty settings if they have died...as it should be. they died, you didn't, so the game gets easier for them since they couldn't handle it and clearly you could.

 

The game is ABOUT surviving. If you survive, you're doing it right, and so the game ramps up the challenge to keep you engaged and interested. If you fail to survive, the game doesn't advance the difficulty and is thus comparatively easier. If you kill yourself to get easier blood moons, then not only do you deal with all of the given death penalties, but you're missing the core concept of the game.

 

It's like playing tag and getting yourself tagged on purpose so that you can rest and not run for a bit. Yeah, its easier that way, but your missing the point of the game...it doesn't mean the game needs to be changed, but maybe watch/play with people whose gameplay style reflects your own? - the same as you would in a game of tag with similar circumstances.

 

I am not disagreeing in general. I believe it is something that it's needed, even if I never was a fan of scaling. But the correlation between these two variables and difficulty is too ridig - the game, in a way, "pampers" your needs, if you will, and feels less like you are a living world. That's why I would also like a third variable in the mix, global time, with a small degree of factor strength, so that the game adapts to you and your character more "softly".

[Kramarite]

Just add a couple of thoughts.

Part of the reason peoples experience varies so much on their 7th day horde is day length. A player using 60 min days is going to be a lower level at horde night then a player playing 120 min days. You can't really compare the 2 players experience because the massive difference in play time before experiencing a blood moon. This also makes balancing the difficulty algorithm more problematic.

 

The settings are there so a player can tailor their game experience. Too many players are forgetting to factor in their chosen game settings and looking to the developers to adapt to the players specific game style. Too hard or too easy? Adjust the settings. Investigate and experiment to find better strategies.

 

As far as game styles go solo wise. Horde night can be circumvented with minimum risk through good tactics and choice of location. If not dying is your goal, then I certainly wouldn't be expecting to fight the blood moon horde in a majorly meaningful way. That said, I've managed to weather without death both the irradiated spiders and cops using ruined buildings as a base, compound bow for regular zombies and AK47 for the irradiated cops and spiders. Sneaky and avoidance tactics are going to give you the best chance for survival. It's not easy but its doable. Just don't expect to be doing many missions. The new POI are major death traps at higher tiers!

[Royal Deluxe]

Just found out that the difference between 75% loot and 200% loot is something arround 1000% (need some tests, buts thats how it feels)

 

Its a big difference if you play DiD with 100 Bullets or with 1000

[Laz Man]

No, my main issue was the fact that not dying makes the gamestage higher than someone who plays with "infinite lives", so what incentive is there to stay alive?

 

Infinite lives: only penalty is a short debuff, but they get easier BM hordes.

DID (or not dying) get: no reward, only risk, and the difficulty keeps getting worse.

 

It seems to me that the game is now designed to encourage you to die to keep it balanced?

 

Why do you care about the lowered difficulty of someone who is not playing with DID rules?

 

The game stage mechanic is there to keep the game challenging for those who want more challenges. Without it, the zombies become less of a challenge sooner as you progress in the game.