Basebuilding is NOT an Outdated Survivalstrategy!!!

[Luzifer]

and i´ll show you folks why!

People expect the zeds to do the old behaviour in a16.

Devs, QA testers AND Moderators told us many times to look at a17 as a new game.

So i Did

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MTwHApFVnzNSfmhKfFQMWnCmSIm9JwIK3o3PCZgNem0/edit?usp=sharing

 

 

This is my take on trying to show you what i created and successfully try n error fixed in creative using Materials only usable without a forge or Workbench. Sure the amounts of Resources needed are hilarious but it can be expanded bit by bit after every horde. It ned very much effort to invent it.

 

 

Actual Pictures of it

 

https://imgur.com/gallery/3O79OCm

[Ghostlight]

The same base designs I've used for many alphas work fine in A17. Edit: I'm on day 29.

[Luzifer]

The same base designs I've used for many alphas work fine in A17. Edit: I'm on day 29.

 

Then you seem to be the Minority, as dozen complaints appeared about how it doesnt work anymore to exploit the Game.

 

I try to show people how to think forward without exploiting the ai with floating bases, stilts, underground etc.

 

Edit: Would you take some pics and show them? I'd love to see how different layouts work

[giKoN]

Day 1 with this base. Please build the base without godmode and tell us when you finished it. Also how long it took to get the ressources to do so.

 

I can build some good structures in god mode too that confuse the zombies. But in order to get there in current game balance w.r.t. mining and ressources you'll have reached the endgame already and will likely live better by running around simple killing the zeds that run after you.

[Luzifer]

Its a concept. Next step is to actually do what you just wrote. But have no Access to the game rn cuz RL-bs.

 

I'll update here with pics of the Survival playthrough

[Vedui]

Let me start by saying it looks very nice!

 

Well, maybe I play differently, but ...

 

1) That seems to be a base which would take 35 days to build

 

2) This base would work wonderfully in A16. It's using very similar concepts, of building out of reach for the zombie. Up on stilts.

 

3) Maybe I don't quite follow what you refer to, but to me this is a stilt base by design. The player is up above the zombies, and using the fact that they don't climb to ..well stay out of reach. That's exactly how many built in A16 as it was a winning strategy to avoid zombies too

 

The problem is, I see base building severely nerfed due to how the AI works.

 

1) underground - toast due to digging

2) normal silts - toast due to bashing supports

3) thick walls - toast due to well, they break through 1 place fast due to all pathing same place and added horde damage bonus.

 

So it's a nice base. But I don't want to have to build on stilts just to have a base. I want a proper fighting base where I can fight the zombies, and not cheese them out. It's very easy to cheese them out, was in A16, and it's very easy A17 too. But I prefer to have a solid base fight, where the zombies are "out there" and I am "in here" and they are trying to kill me. That definitely does not work even close to how A16 did it

 

But yeah, this one is to me as tilt base with a maze rat layout, and the AI will react very predictably. So as such I don't see this as differently than underground or stilt bases or bedrock bases in A16, the result is the same, just it makes normal base builds more pointless?

 

my take anyhow

 

/V -

[Wulf]

Text

 

Actually it is not a stiltbase. It's more readily understandable from the googledoc document. Basically he is forcing them through a specific path in the base. But he has different chokepoints throughout using doors that they have to bash through. Next to those doors he has arrowslits/bars to shoot them from. So he is/can be on the same level as the zombies. He doesn't fight them from above. Notice how some walls inside the base are 2 layers thick, that's to force them through that path. Whenever they break through a door, he retreats to another part of the base where the same thing happens. Basically the zombies have about 4 parts of the base to conquer. Meanwhile the player(s) retreats further and further.

 

While the idea is fine, i don't think you can have the dps to defend this solo(the horde will be through these chokepoints in no time), so this would have to be a multiplayer base. And even then, it would only work for smaller hordes.

[Vedui]

Actually it is not a stiltbase. It's more readily understandable from the googledoc document. Basically he is forcing them through a specific path in the base. But he has different chokepoints throughout using doors that they have to bash through. Besides those doors he has arrowslits/ironbars to shoot them from. So he is on the same level as the zombies. Whenever they break through a door, he retreats to another part of the base where the same thing happens. Basically the zombies have about 4 parts of the base to conquer.

 

Also, i could probably get this base going on day 7, using wood and flagstone. It doesnt need to finished from the get go due to how he's built several compartments.

 

Depends how you define it. I mentioned I see it as a stilt base with a rat maze layout. Which it is. There's a maze they have to follow, and there's a second floor where you can shoot down on the zombies. Now you can say that the second level will never be used, and that's fine, that turns it into a maze base. And good luck trying to kill a zombie horde through an arrow slit when 8-64 zombies outside the door. Make it a vault door, and they'll bash through the cobblestone, so it has to be a reasonably weak door, which they will tear through really fast.

 

My point is less terminology, and more that exploiting the rat-maze AI, is no less exploiting than underground, bedrock, stilt base building in A16. It still exploits it. And the downside is, it makes traditional bases pointless. In most of these builds, including this, it would make more sense for the zombie to simply bash through a wall and enter the base, not run the maze through a path they haven't seen and wouldn't have any idea would lead to the player.

 

A more accurate test is, make your base, bump up gamestage to max, and fight it out. Then if that works, bump it up to 16-32-64 concurrent zombies and see how it fares. A lot of bases I see work fine with 8 zombies and lower gamestage. But I've yet to see a design that does not exploit AI at max gamestage and bumped up zombies. And if it can't take max gamestage, then what will you use for late game base?

 

I think it's a really nice and cool built base, don't get me wrong. But a game has to be possible early, mid, and late game, and if you can't make a base that can work towards late game maxed out, then we need a different base, or the game moves towards where it fails and people can't survive late game at all. Not desirable

[RestInPieces]

My point is less terminology, and more that exploiting the rat-maze AI, is no less exploiting than underground, bedrock, stilt base building in A16. It still exploits it. And the downside is, it makes traditional bases pointless. In most of these builds, including this, it would make more sense for the zombie to simply bash through a wall and enter the base, not run the maze through a path they haven't seen and wouldn't have any idea would lead to the player.

.....................

I think it's a really nice and cool built base, don't get me wrong. But a game has to be possible early, mid, and late game, and if you can't make a base that can work towards late game maxed out, then we need a different base, or the game moves towards where it fails and people can't survive late game at all. Not desirable

 

If there is no way they can reach up to you they will start attacking the foundations. If you move during that time - that's where the problem is - and I am 100% certain that faatal will fix this in the future, so that for example some zombies keep attacking the foundations if they can't reach you, instead of following you around. Height(stair)-based mazes are great from my experience.

 

Building a maze to funnel them is certainly not exploiting (besides the going back and forth I mentioned above) and it is nothing like the other ways you mentioned. It requires effort, traps, active player defending. It's the way every TD works actually - and it even minimizes repair downtimes.

[Vedui]

If there is no way they can reach up to you they will start attacking the foundations. If you move during that time - that's where the problem is - and I am 100% certain that faatal will fix this in the future, so that for example some zombies keep attacking the foundations if they can't reach you, instead of following you around. Height(stair)-based mazes are great from my experience.

 

Building a maze to funnel them is certainly not exploiting (besides the going back and forth I mentioned above) and it is nothing like the other ways you mentioned. It requires effort, traps, active player defending. It's the way every TD works actually - and it even minimizes repair downtimes.

 

Ok. So we disagree on the fundamentals I believe using a maze to path zombies is exploiting the AI same as in A16 a stilt base where they mill under, or underground where they mill above is also exploiting the AI.

 

I have nothing against exploiting the AI. I think it's fun.

 

What I have against is an AI designed to avoid exploits, making traditional bases (at least A11 when I started playing up to A16) fairly pointless, when A17 bases ends up exploiting the new AI anyhow, just in different ways. Now all the people who enjoy the zombie game but prefer to sit out their fights in their bases can't enjoy the game, while the ones who fight the zombies just find different exploits as traditional bases don't work. I think this needs a tweak to make it work better.

 

I never heard previously people saying "base building is broken" except for late game bases in a16 with radiated cops. Now half the people I talk to say base building is broken. I think that's worth listening to.

[RestInPieces]

Ok. So we disagree on the fundamentals I believe using a maze to path zombies is exploiting the AI same as in A16 a stilt base where they mill under, or underground where they mill above is also exploiting the AI.

 

I have nothing against exploiting the AI. I think it's fun.

 

What I have against is an AI designed to avoid exploits, making traditional bases (at least A11 when I started playing up to A16) fairly pointless, when A17 bases ends up exploiting the new AI anyhow, just in different ways. Now all the people who enjoy the zombie game but prefer to sit out their fights in their bases can't enjoy the game, while the ones who fight the zombies just find different exploits as traditional bases don't work. I think this needs a tweak to make it work better.

 

I never heard previously people saying "base building is broken" except for late game bases in a16 with radiated cops. Now half the people I talk to say base building is broken. I think that's worth listening to.

 

I am all for opinions, but I have to be a little pedantic here. By that logic every game that has adversaries makes the player "exploit their AI". You can't really call this an exploit - it requires effort, follows the game's genre philosophy and is intended. Underground/stilts did not meet any of these criteria. This, with a few fixes admittedly, does.

 

As for sitting out any fights in your bases, without effort/risk/consequence, that doesn't really meet the game's own description and the survival/TD genres it contains. The game is meant to be a mix of genres, as explained in the description, with all of them working together - not separately or optionally.

[Vedui]

I am all for opinions, but I have to be a little pedantic here. By that logic every game that has adversaries makes the player "exploit their AI". You can't really call this an exploit - it requires effort, follows the game's genre philosophy and is intended. Underground/stilts did not meet any of these criteria. This, with a few fixes admittedly, does.

 

As for sitting out any fights in your bases, without effort/risk/consequence, that doesn't really meet the game's own description and the survival/TD genres it contains. The game is meant to be a mix of genres, as explained in the description, with all of them working together - not separately or optionally.

 

Like I said, we disagree on fundamentals which is cool. When I think about zombie survival games, I don't think "let me make a maze as zombies somehow know exactly the best path to the player, which blocks are weak, and through a maze no living person ever has walked or will walk, designed just to make me lemming my way to my death".

 

Well actually, the closet game genre I can see is Lemmings. It certainly is nothing I've ever seen in a zombie game. It definitely doesn't follow the zombie (game) genre in general, I certainly can not think of any movie or game that's a alike in the zombie (game) genre. Which just a lot of people seem to have an issue with.

 

So you have your view of the zombie genre, me and others have ours. The views are fundamentally different. And that's why a lot of people are unhappy. What you call intended, I call an exploit. What you call effort, I consider less effort. What you say follows the genre, I say breaks away from the genre. And so on.

 

But good to hear all sides. There'll be mods to change things anyhow

[RestInPieces]

Like I said, we disagree on fundamentals which is cool.

 

While this game is also a TD game, it is not a pure TD game either. And while I do believe that the general concept of pathing should be a part of the game's TD mechanics (as in every TD out there) and I am happy about the new AI in general, I agree that it doesn't quite match the expected zombie behavior and shouldn't be the absolute way to defend.

 

That's why I am asking for more AI zombie improvements, as in, different zombie behavior profiles and some randomness (making materials matter more), which will make them act more like an unorganized horde and less like a line of lemmings. Not completely though, think it more as a mix. That's the reason I believe these AI improvements are a huge step compared to what we had before (zombies running in circles, not being able to threaten you in certain situations), but there is definitely also room for further ones.

[Ghostlight]

Then you seem to be the Minority, as dozen complaints appeared about how it doesnt work anymore to exploit the Game.

 

I try to show people how to think forward without exploiting the ai with floating bases, stilts, underground etc.

 

Edit: Would you take some pics and show them? I'd love to see how different layouts work

 

No need. It's a 9x9 double-walled Steel cube with a cage of Iron Bars on top (overlapping 1 block on all sides), surrounded by 3 rows of Iron Spikes, each with a row of barbed wire on top) and a simple wooden ramp to jump into it through a gap in the cage. We lost 50 spikes and a few steel blocks last horde. GS was about 140 I believe.

 

Although this is the exact same design we always use for our first base (because you can easy build it out of re-enforced flagstoneby day 2 or 3) we typically do not take it beyond flagstone, as that was enough to buy time till the real base was up in A16. This is the first time we felt the need to go to Steel. There is no doubt in my mind that a flagstone version would have been flattened by the last couple of hordes.

 

We are currently building our usual fortress (with electric defences) nearby.

[ricp]

On solo, and with the way that stamina effects mining and harvesting, I doubt I'd be building anything new any time soon. Obviously as hordes get more and more difficult as your game stage raises, there may be a need for bespoke defence but honestly I've yet to create a dedicated horde base. Large concrete buildings are still the best bet, imo, for blood moon hordes and need very little reinforcement.

 

The zombies are cleverer, and they do pack far more of a punch, but it's going to take them far more than a few hours of horde night to get up to a concrete rooftop that has no obvious path to it.

 

In fact, I'd say I've gone from being a bit of a homebody in A16 to a wanderer in A17. With the wealth of PoI's to investigate and explore and with the way that the skill and trader system has affected the game play there is very little reason to stay put.

 

In terms of OP's initial comment, the art of base building will never be outdated. It is, as I say, an art. However with the number of ready built PoIs available to you I'd wager it's no longer "needed".

[Vedui]

While this game is also a TD game, it is not a pure TD game either. And while I do believe that the general concept of pathing should be a part of the game's TD mechanics (as in every TD out there) and I am happy about the new AI in general, I agree that it doesn't quite match the expected zombie behavior and shouldn't be the absolute way to defend.

 

That's why I am asking for more AI zombie improvements, as in, different zombie behavior profiles and some randomness (making materials matter more), which will make them act more like an unorganized horde and less like a line of lemmings. Not completely though, think it more as a mix. That's the reason I believe these AI improvements are a huge step compared to what we had before (zombies running in circles, not being able to threaten you in certain situations), but there is definitely also room for further ones.

 

Absolutely.

 

I'd go for considering diff AI for poi vs hordes. I'd consider AI that is random (some path, some attack, some wander, some path and attack or attack and path) and thus meaning it gets less predictable, but still acceptable for multiple gamestages. That would allow rat mazes to work. It would allow traditional bases to work. Neither would be the solution, but aspects of both would increase base building.

 

Zombie digging I'd probably try to restrict to players within x blocks, say 15-20. So if someone bade an underground base 50 down, the zombies won't hear you, won't dig, and you can continue as per a16. But it would mean no immediate underground safety just by being a few blocks down, or on a floor down, etc. Right now detection /noise seems excessive, and I know they are working with that. Break a block next to the zed? No change. Jump / fall 20 blocks away? Instant recognition

 

This is why I see feedback as so important, so people can bring it all up, and as the devs refine and review they have input and different angles. Smart people work better with more data.

[HungryZombie]

If there is no way they can reach up to you they will start attacking the foundations. If you move during that time - that's where the problem is - and I am 100% certain that faatal will fix this in the future, so that for example some zombies keep attacking the foundations if they can't reach you, instead of following you around. Height(stair)-based mazes are great from my experience.

 

Building a maze to funnel them is certainly not exploiting (besides the going back and forth I mentioned above) and it is nothing like the other ways you mentioned. It requires effort, traps, active player defending. It's the way every TD works actually - and it even minimizes repair downtimes.

 

I've not had good success with maze like paths for the zombies. At some point they just decide to go though the wall instead of mazing around.

[myrkana]

Me and my 2 friends built sometihng similar its a spiral with spikes and barbed wire in the middle parts (where the zombies walk), we put blade traps on the innermost part (got them from a trader, along with the power banks). Every wall is made of flagstone and is 2-3 thick on every section. The roof is 2 thick. We upgraded every block to cobblestone and have half blocks that allow us to shoot/see whats going on.

 

Bases are very doable! People just have to figure out how to build them now we didn't even get to truly test our base because the zombies were stopped by the iron spikes we had surrounding the outside as well xD they ran up the sides and tried to get into the spiral but the spikes + barbed wire killed them all by a few blocks in lol

[RestInPieces]

Zombie digging I'd probably try to restrict to players within x blocks, say 15-20. So if someone bade an underground base 50 down, the zombies won't hear you, won't dig, and you can continue as per a16.

 

As oppossed to lower depths being completely safe, which would encourage everyone to do that in order to circumvent any TD and most survival adversities (and I wouldn't enjoy it either because I am a mole and like building huge underground compounds but I want things to get interesting), they can implement a dynamic environmetal danger, like my awesome dynamic environmental maggot block infestation suggestion

[HungryZombie]

Me and my 2 friends built sometihng similar its a spiral with spikes and barbed wire in the middle parts (where the zombies walk), we put blade traps on the innermost part (got them from a trader, along with the power banks). Every wall is made of flagstone and is 2-3 thick on every section. The roof is 2 thick. We upgraded every block to cobblestone and have half blocks that allow us to shoot/see whats going on.

 

Bases are very doable! People just have to figure out how to build them now we didn't even get to truly test our base because the zombies were stopped by the iron spikes we had surrounding the outside as well xD they ran up the sides and tried to get into the spiral but the spikes + barbed wire killed them all by a few blocks in lol

 

How many days did it take you to get to iron spikes? Aren't those gated behind getting a forge?

[Scyris]

If I don't feel like bothering with the 7th day hordes, I just go for a bike ride, or a run. Bike unlocks at 4 int now insted of 5, you just have to find a workbench in the world to use to make one, as the workbench is locked till lv 30.

[myrkana]

How many days did it take you to get to iron spikes? Aren't those gated behind getting a forge?

 

around day 2-3 or so we got the forge, threw a bunch of dirt i nthere and frantically ran back and forth with stacks of 100 or so raw iron to smelt down xD. Then we just started to mine the boulders around, and then dug a small mining pit the get stone from. I focused on crafting things, food etc... While the other two focused on being combat monsters We died a lot during this time and looted a shotgun mesiah factory (OMG THAT ROOF).

 

Also remember that you can change settings to how you want in this game. You can make days longer, zombies not run, zombies run always, etc... I'm not sure people are remembering this fact We made our days 120 minutes since we're adjusting to everything being new and we have a person who is fresh to the game. It also gives us more time for those quests and the like. 60 min days used to be kind of standard but with the new stuff in the game longer days might become standard so you can actually explore and have fun while base building

 

 

btw we didn't craft our first iron tools, we bought them. We have 4 traders relatively close (less than 2km from our base) and we check up on them when they reset and we sell extra guns and stuff to them. Traders are a great way to get extra defenses for horde night!

[Luzifer]

Actually it is not a stiltbase. It's more readily understandable from the googledoc document. >Sniplet<

 

While the idea is fine, i don't think you can have the dps to defend this solo(the horde will be through these chokepoints in no time), so this would have to be a multiplayer base. And even then, it would only work for smaller hordes.

 

Yes! you understood what i try to achieve with this Base ON Point- Very Good!!.

 

I planned to Layer the ground with Barbed wire onto the ground to slow everything down. I know, this Base is rather suited for 2-4 players but it is small enough for one player to successfully defend alone. The Doors are only upgraded to Scrap iron, so retreat or repair is important to keep in mind. To make retreat easier, i recommend walking with wooden frames placed beforehand above them. ceilingheight is no issue i built up to 6 blocks high in ground floor.

 

Vedui. I dont know how that is Exploiting the Ai. They can realistically reach me over that single Ramp they GPS towards. Letting them Mazewalk on ways I intended them to walk on is what makes the TD element in this game.

 

Actual Stiltbases Do Exploit the AI or rather did it in a16 As the Ai got Knocked out resulting in walking circles endlessly.

This Basedesign is not the Typical Cagebunker one is used to too.

 

I Built this Base with the Genre TOWER DEFENSE Primarily in mind. I Chose a Layout and made it Work so far.

Now that i am writing it trying to describe what i had in Mind, i Get to the conclusion i Built a Dungeon for Zeds.

 

I am more of that Pro active defending player so you will most likely never see me running straight to that first floor, i´ll always run n gun towards next checkpoint.

And even if i´m gonna have a to resort first floor immediately because of whatever reason might apply, they wont get stuck under me running in circles and start bashin walls they´re not supposed to. I Tested that. They walk it all the way to the Ramp up to my Place.

 

To me the Exploit is defined by the start of uncontrolled bashing trying to get you, like they do when you block yourself up into the Hospital/factory Pois.

[InSanity]

I started my base build partway into day 3 and it took most of the rest of the week to get it all done, minus some little side missions for the trader and looting a couple nearby POIs. I was on nomad with 90 minutes days but I always afked at night and I had a forge in a nearby POI but I didn't get level 20 until day 8 so I mostly used the stone axe. I've used the same base for multiple hordes with only relatively minor upgrades and it's worked quite well. The picture I added shows the damage after the first horde with a gamestage of around 40 using only a hunting rifle and a bow with stone arrows on my part.

[Morloc]

I was amused when my gauntlet of death worked perfectly, and while I had to expend ammo, which I hate, I was going to make it to sunrise and had added 4 or 5 levels. Unfortunately, at about 1:45 the zombie horde stopped coming. I waited until 2:30, and figured something was bugged. I restarted the game...the horde began again immediately, but they now had Horde GPS, but didn't bother with pathing...at all. They just charged my pillbox ignoring the wide open door and hallway. They took the reinforced concrete down quickly, but I wasn't worried!...I'd left my bicycle right outside my escape route....except....after restarting, it was no longer there. Booooo.

 

 

-Morloc