Getting rid of level gating

[captaine]

Here's an idea for getting rid of level gating, while keeping things balanced. Get rid of the player level requirement for attributes, but make each level of an attribute cost more skill points than the previous level. Keep individual perks cheap like they are now. This would allow people to work towards certain specializations earlier, at the cost of being gimped in other areas. I'd also like to see costs and points given per level increased, with the ability to "refund" attributes and perks for half of their acquisition cost. This would allow players to respec at a price. Thoughts?

[RestInPieces]

Had thought of incremental costs for attributes but I am not convinced that players won't spread attributes as much as they can because of them and get many lvl1-2 perks at a point, insteal of, for example, getting the fifth point of an attribute (that won't happen with intelligence as it is the most essential). Maybe if the perk benefits were slightly incremental as well (besides the last rank which is very compelling).

[Viktoriusiii]

Sadly, TFPs ignore all and every proposal to improve their system.

They made that clear in the last few alphas. They have a vision in mind and do not stray away from it.

No matter if ppl tell them, that the current way is badly designed.

 

And even if they accept the votes cast in the poll, they will still try and gimp the player to a point, where it feels necessary to grind. Making 7d2d not fun, but work.

Things like a forge (which can be found even on lvl 1 so why even take away the freedom to settle in a poi that you like?)

and things like limbs only exploding once you level it is BS. Fun should never be locked away.

 

My offer STILL stands to offer all my advice, for free, without any obligation, just to get this game on the desired path, without completly gimping the player and taking their fun away.

 

 

Incremental costs are nice, but should not be overdone! You already dont have enough skillpoints to level everything (or need to be lvl 300 to get all dunno). I want to be able to have my desired skill (only that one) maxed by lvl 40-50, probably even earlier.

There are so many perks that are useful and if I ignore them for 5% more dmg with the sledgehammer, I at least want to be able to do so without beeing told "no".

[Katitof]

Punishing player for trying for specialize?

What a wonderful idea, I can't see what can go wrong with it.

[Khulkhuum]

I think you people forget that A16 was also grindy in some aspects, with specific skills not really being used in 95% of cases. Add to that level requirements or general skill requirements before you upgrade specific skills (like better dismemberment with knives at higher levels required appropriate knife usage skill, better looting skill on higher levels required appropriate looting skill, etc).

 

You all forget how so many things were locked away in A16 behind various mechanics... Now there are different things "locked" for specific reasons and everyone has a fuss...

[HerrKingsley]

@Khulkhuum a lot of people where against it when it was introduced as well. Problem now is that you get it on one of the key items for builders.

Making the game more gindier for that playstyle than looter / zombie killer.

Basically pure builder playstyle starts after lvl 20 without it being a chore.

 

That would be like having to be lvl 20 before you got any xp from zombies.

Or not being able to enter POIs before lvl 20.

[fazi]

Here's an idea for getting rid of level gating, while keeping things balanced. Get rid of the player level requirement for attributes, but make each level of an attribute cost more skill points than the previous level. Keep individual perks cheap like they are now. This would allow people to work towards certain specializations earlier, at the cost of being gimped in other areas. I'd also like to see costs and points given per level increased, with the ability to "refund" attributes and perks for half of their acquisition cost. This would allow players to respec at a price. Thoughts?

 

Yes, and then we will all invest in forges/bench/mixer and again have full steel tols and reinforced concrete bases by day 7...

[fazi]

@Khulkhuum a lot of people where against it when it was introduced as well. Problem now is that you get it on one of the key items for builders.

Making the game more gindier for that playstyle than looter / zombie killer.

Basically pure builder playstyle starts after lvl 20 without it being a chore.

 

That would be like having to be lvl 20 before you got any xp from zombies.

Or not being able to enter POIs before lvl 20.

 

You can get lvl 20 by day 7 , and then you can specialize.Even as a zombie killer, you can;t enter big poi's at low lvl cause you will get killed.If you play MP and wanna be just the builder , ask your friends to help you level.

[HerrKingsley]

You can get lvl 20 by day 7 , and then you can specialize.Even as a zombie killer, you can;t enter big poi's at low lvl cause you will get killed.If you play MP and wanna be just the builder , ask your friends to help you level.

 

Not true!

You can't by playing pure builder. Except if you only gather plantfiber for the first 7days.

[Katitof]

Not true!

You can't by playing pure builder. Except if you only gather plantfiber for the first 7days.

 

He said you can be level 20 by that day.

 

Not that you will be by doing whatever thing you want to do that isn't killing Zs.

 

Also, POIs with forge are a thing since A16.

[HerrKingsley]

I know. And I pointed out that that's why builders see it as a problem since they have to go and kill zombies before being able to build key item for builder plays style. Like grinding trees to get access to power attack...sound fun to you?

[OzHawkeye]

I know. And I pointed out that that's why builders see it as a problem since they have to go and kill zombies before being able to build key item for builder plays style. Like grinding trees to get access to power attack...sound fun to you?

 

Hopefully, TFP will eventually be able to expand the XML options so that players could mod in their own systems. Personally, "learn by doing" is my favourite, if it can be figured out in a way that's not grindy, and I hope eventually in Gold to be able to implement some system for that, or gratefully use a mod that does the same.

[HerrKingsley]

If that would happen when a17 is going stable I would be a happy happy fan again. Modding it to a13 (my personal favorite) or atleas back to a16 would make a17 a blast to play!

[Roland]

 

My offer STILL stands to offer all my advice, for free, without any obligation, just to get this game on the desired path, without completly gimping the player and taking their fun away.

 

Wow. Thanks for the extension on your offer. That is very generous of you. Everyone else around here wants to charge us for all their advice...

[HerrKingsley]

Wow. Thanks for the extension on your offer. That is very generous of you. Everyone else around here wants to charge us for all their advice...

 

Is that possible? I wouldn't mind.

[SnowDog1942]

Wow. Thanks for the extension on your offer. That is very generous of you. Everyone else around here wants to charge us for all their advice...

 

I charge 2 dollar to make you holler.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

If that would happen when a17 is going stable I would be a happy happy fan again. Modding it to a13 (my personal favorite) or atleas back to a16 would make a17 a blast to play!

 

Yea Battlefield 5 would be great if I could just mod it to Battlefield 1. Or.. I can play Battlefield 1.. hmmmmmmm

[Viktoriusiii]

Wow. Thanks for the extension on your offer. That is very generous of you. Everyone else around here wants to charge us for all their advice...

 

Well "everyone else" might not have either the time or the endurance to really think about it. They might not have the right background or they simply go by what they think is most fun. But sure. Ridicule me for offering to fix your broken game ^_^ thats fine as well! And its free as well.

 

*edit* its not a "I'm better then the others" statement but a "I have time and the willingness to help, but you guys keep ignoring everything I say so I make that offer in a last attempt to get you to notice" which you did... even though not in the preferred way.

 

*editedit* What I want to say is, that you guys keep ignoring nearly everything the community says and its frustrating as hell. Not even a small "we are considering it" or "that wont be possible because x" like you did back in the early alphas.

[Vomkat]

I want $50'000 consulting fee.

[HerrKingsley]

Yea Battlefield 5 would be great if I could just mod it to Battlefield 1. Or.. I can play Battlefield 1.. hmmmmmmm

 

Great analogy snowdog!

Next time pleas take some time and read through the thread instead of just making assumptions.

[Gazz]

We had tried incremental costs in A16.

 

All it did was making progression more complicated, not deeper.

Gaining a new level, then being able to buy nothing with that reward because you are still saving for that one special OP perk - that's no fun.

 

We have toyed with many different approaches and ideas, like picking one core attribute and everything in "other" attributes costs 2 points. In the end we went with letting players decide what they want to do or be.

[Vedui]

We had tried incremental costs in A16.

 

All it did was making progression more complicated, not deeper.

Gaining a new level, then being able to buy nothing with that reward because you are still saving for that one special OP perk - that's no fun.

 

We have toyed with many different approaches and ideas, like picking one core attribute and everything in "other" attributes costs 2 points. In the end we went with letting players decide what they want to do or be.

 

Actually I love that every level gives you something to purchase. I think that works very well, that part of it.

 

I do feel like early/mid game I'm struggling to find points to put into things I want, as there's so many out there. I get to level 50, and I feel like I'm still a newbie, because even perking up "ok" in some areas, it means I can't delve into others at all. But this is not due to the way the system is setup, that's more because I feel we need some extra points.

 

What I would consider, is to maybe start the player off with an extra 10 skill points compared to now. Let me get some into the direction I want to go and not be a full green horn from the start, as the way I look at it, I start the game, I see all these cool perks, but it's gonna take me ages to progress down them to make any use of them at all. Giving me an extra 10 points I think wouldn't unbalance, but it would enhance as Icould make my "initial build" rather than be totally untrained in everything.

 

/V -

[WolfyBlah]

We had tried incremental costs in A16.

 

All it did was making progression more complicated, not deeper.

Gaining a new level, then being able to buy nothing with that reward because you are still saving for that one special OP perk - that's no fun.

 

We have toyed with many different approaches and ideas, like picking one core attribute and everything in "other" attributes costs 2 points. In the end we went with letting players decide what they want to do or be.

 

Unless they want to craft thier tools or more advanved items earlier in the game. If somebody wants to spend thier points on unlocking crafting recipes they should bloody well be able to, thats specialisation and choice, not 'you cant have this untill level 20/50/100'

[Viktoriusiii]

WHY dont we make Attributes not 10 lvls but 100 levels, and give 5 points per levelup, perks costing 5 points every time.

 

this means progress is half the speed its now (even slower to compensate specialisation) but you dont have levelgates anymore, only attribute gates.

 

So you still need 30 intelligence for the forge, but you can reach that by lvl 5 (with starting 5) and lvl 6 is the forge itself.

OR you go for packmule. Or whatever YOU feel is your priority.

If I want the forge day 1 and it is locked, I stray around the first day until i find a working forge or restart the game. But even then its not my favourite POI so my fun is gimped without reason. I still need leather and two iron pipes. I don't care if you lock me away out of 20% damage (I still think levelgates are annoying though but that is not something I would take that serious). But if you gimp my progress by saying "Nah not yet!".... I am honestly tempted to mod/edit the xmls... and I have never done that in all my alphas... because I wanna play multiplayer and liked the basegame.

[RestInPieces]

WHY dont we make Attributes not 10 lvls but 100 levels, and give 5 points per levelup, perks costing 5 points every time.

 

this means progress is half the speed its now (even slower to compensate specialisation) but you dont have levelgates anymore, only attribute gates.

 

So you still need 30 intelligence for the forge, but you can reach that by lvl 5 (with starting 5) and lvl 6 is the forge itself.

OR you go for packmule. Or whatever YOU feel is your priority.

If I want the forge day 1 and it is locked, I stray around the first day until i find a working forge or restart the game. But even then its not my favourite POI so my fun is gimped without reason. I still need leather and two iron pipes. I don't care if you lock me away out of 20% damage (I still think levelgates are annoying though but that is not something I would take that serious). But if you gimp my progress by saying "Nah not yet!".... I am honestly tempted to mod/edit the xmls... and I have never done that in all my alphas... because I wanna play multiplayer and liked the basegame.

 

May seem messy, but this concept has merit - you are essentially gated by points that you lack, instead of having points and not being able to spend them at what you want. It's obvious why this technical difference would change how negatively players would view gating.

 

However, I can't agree with the "forge at level 6" because I do enjoy the current progression rate.

[Viktoriusiii]

 

However, I can't agree with the "forge at level 6" because I do enjoy the current progression rate.

 

You DO realize, that ALL I have on lvl 6 is a forge and Iron tools right? While I wasn't the quickest (because I dont exploit zombie xp), level 6 should be day 4-5 so on day 4 you could have:

packmule, better bargaining to get better stuff at the trader (like iron tools weapons or armor), WAY more damage and knockdown to zombies, more staminaregen/10%less stun and hp or whatever you like!

What do you have with the forge? NOTHING! That is the tradeoff you have to make. It is a descicion. Can you keep up with 2 rows of inventory? I know I cant. So there are 6 skillpoints (right now not in my version) gone. 6 levels (well 1 level and 5 questreward points) to get back the rows of inventory.

 

I bet nobody will actually do this except for those who REALLY want a forge... and why stop them? They have to deal with a lot more trouble then those without a skilled forge (maybe a found one).

 

*edit* I still have a forge day 1 in my games. I just need to wander around aimlessly and find a stupid poi with a forge in it. Not much fun, but I want a forge.