A17 impressions: The game feels like a survival at last

[RestInPieces]

Overall: Considering it is an experimental build and fine-tuning/bugs still need to be sorted out, changes were great.

Note: Always talking about PvE.

 

Suggestions for players:

-Play on creative to learn the new mechanics and items (especially mods).

-Don't play A17 like it was A16, treat it as a new game. Anyone gotten used to many meaningless/asinine A16 mechanics, like Week/Day 1 end-game items, will have to re-adapt.

 

 

1)Death penalty

 

Gone are the days when death was a free teleport and a status reset. Death has now a real consequence that you can actually not ignore like you did with wellness. As a result, it is now necessary to actually take care of yourself and basic items like medicine became valuable. The nature of the penalty is something that affects players in a fundamental way - if it didn't, it would be inconsequential.

I can see how gamestage and spawn fine-tuning or ninja zombies may seem to make the game seem unfair, but the problem is just that, not the penalty itself. Also can see how losing Intelligence perks is the harshest thing about the death penalty. Personally enjoy it because it is the bulk of the consequence for dying. Players can circumvent it by planning ahead and having a large supply of items though, so that they keep doing what they did while penalized.

 

 

2)Basic needs & stamina

 

The new basic needs system seems good. Satiation and hydration matter more now, as they should in a survival game (Roland had said that but I didn't believe him ).

Stamina is now something you have to pay attention to, instead of being a nearly infinite pool and a decorative UI element at level 1. Worry not, it still becomes infinite with that regen at higher levels.

Even if now a lot of food sources can cause food poisoning, food still gets easily stockpiled eventually. Spoilage mitigated (not eliminated) by electricity (fridges) would be a great addition, ensuring that the player still has to work a little bit for basic needs towards the end-game.

 

 

3)Level gating

 

I love the fact that progression is slower, because it now actually feels like progression.

The "primitive" stage may be lacking the comforts of end-game items, but to me these comforts only have value because some effort needs to be made.

However, I don't like much the fact that the player is encouraged to grind zombies (as a way to get fast xp), in order to achieve that (tech) progression. Hope that fine-tuning of xp sources takes care of that in the future.

 

Also, after making a few character builds, it seems that one is forced to spread points in many perk trees at a time. Result is specialization being weak and the player being left with many extra points which he can't spend on the locked perks he wants and has to spread them out. Consequently, the level locked gating feels more annoying.

Raising the rate at which you get levels slightly, while adding incremental costs as a point sink to perk levels might solve this.

 

In general I'd prefer the Subnautica way (exploration mostly, could be in combination with quests) of getting schematics and essential recipes than them being tied to leveling.

That shouldn't mean faster progression - just progression that is slightly more controllable by the player.

 

 

4)Item quality

 

Item quality may not feel impactful at first, but that changes when you get your hands on some mods.

From my experience though, it's easier to get high quality items first, so quality upgrades before you get mods naturally don't feel like they matter much with the durability factor alone. The mod system itself is great and the game desperately needed "chase" items. Hope more are introduced to the game in the future.

 

 

5)Inventory system

 

Always wanted an inventory system and I am glad one was added. However I can see how the implementation of the current one can be seen as more "micromanagement". Looting one more item by mistake or because one doesn't know how many free slots he has left, will make the player open his inventory just to check it or drop a single item. If there is a way to make it more intuitive in the future, I'd welcome that.

 

 

6)AI & Enemies

 

Not much needs to be said here, except that the new AI has breathed new life into the game. A lot of things need to be fine-tuned though, like sleeper spawns/detection range (already changed a bit in the latest build, haven't had time to test).

 

Now enemies themselves have to be addressed so that they feel more organic - less like clones (not talking about visuals).

 

-random chance to "trip/short dash/hug attempt" towards you when they get close (like it happens in movies/tv for that extra surprise factor).

-slightly randomized standing-up time/chance.

-chance to use the bite attack animation, which already exists, with a different spherecast/whatever.

-chance to stumble a bit while walking - making their movement rate more varied.

-more attack animations like grabbing again with a random chance.

-a very slight movement/attack speed variation.

 

Better and more sound cues are needed for vultures/dogs and sometimes zombies, so that the player has the chance to defend himself. Dogs should also bark and give players a chance to get away before turning into a pack of frame-skipping homing missiles. Vultures should make their presence known with distinct sounds. Both animations need dire improvement.

 

I really hope that the AI and zombie unpredictability/better special zombie mechanics in the future, will reduce the need for cartoony bullet sponge monsters.

 

 

Finally, I dug underground and to my dismay, it still seems perfectly safe. Zombie detection range should be toned down both horizontally and vertically above ground, but at the same time zombies should be able to find you anywhere below ground.

Never too late to abandon the digging zombies thing and use the best suggestion ever made which is the awesome earth maggot infestation concept. Your loss

[METALmurderer]

Overall I like the changes in theory, but I think it needs a fair bit of balancing.

 

Unperked on Warrior, I used a 6 quality Magnum and headshot a sleeper, causing her to wake up and talk towards me. She took a total of 4 headshots to kill. (

)

 

Beyond that, there is definitely a challenge like I've never had before from 7 Days. The "Killbox" "Concrete Pillar 50" bases don't work anymore, so now we're trying to find something better than Iron Bars that we can shoot thru without getting broken so easily... It'll be interesting to see how this Alpha evolves from where we're at now...

 

And a throwback to a discord convo about Bicycles pre-experimental:

Me: Bicycles will be great. No Gas, probably stamina use to pedal fast but still faster than walking, maybe even faster than sprinting! (BTW Pedal fast doesn't currently consume Stam like sprinting does)

Everyone else: Bikes are gonna suck, I don't want a Bike I want a minibike or a motorcycle

 

 

Everyone else last night: (Singing Bicycle by Queen)

[RestInPieces]

Never was a fan of bullet sponges - they are the only reason I avoid playing above Warrior difficulty. It's not about difficulty itself, it's about the quality of difficulty. For example DS's trope was mostly learning the attack patterns of enemies which is a better way to go about difficulty than flatly raising hp.

 

As for defenses, it seems that now more intricate plans are needed, which is a wonderful thing. However the underground still seems to be completely safe, at least on bigger depths - anyone else tried it?

[SickPuppy]

Agree with most of OP.

 

Read a few other people mention no cues from vultures and dogs, I wear headphones to play and I always hear the squawk of the vulture and the barking / panting / running of dogs. Not saying headphones is the only way to play but just odd this keeps coming up. Never had a problem with them.

[chriswheeler22]

Im loving A17.

 

It needs some balancing issues, but I've been playing non stop since Monday.

 

I also wear headphones and hear the squawks and panting of birds and dogs.

[Ld-airgrafix]

How is health increase locked behind a point a survival aspect??? Nothing about this game is survival anymore.

[RestInPieces]

How is health increase locked behind a point a survival aspect??? Nothing about this game is survival anymore.

 

If you had mentioned the perks that shrug off diseases/injuries, I would agree. But the perk system was just implemented so these are a matter of tuning. And the bulk of the changes is certainly towards a path for a more meaningful survival game.

[Ld-airgrafix]

And the bulk of the changes is certainly towards a path for a more meaningful survival game.

 

I honestly dont see it headed towards survival, its further from survival than its ever been. Locking certain game aspects behind a skill points is a poor choice, and like others have mentioned before me, its most likely to help console development.

[SenpaiThatIngnoresYou]

I see the logic behind the new system. From a game design standpoint, we have thousands of documented hours of youtubers not spending skill points until they need to unlock something. This is clear, documented evidence that the previous skill system sucked. a lot of people did not care, and leveling up was a meh thing. Mods attempted to address this.

 

So the new leveling and perk system fixes a lot of those problems. Are you dependent on stone tools? only if rng screws you over. Did rng screw you over? then put the points in the relevant perks. If you are having trouble getting xp for those perks then you are not fighting enough.

 

are you constantly being attacked in your base? Welcome to a17. this is not a 16 where base building came in 4th, you need to be building your base daily, and make it one wandering horde proof by day 1. This means spending time each day getting resources, food, scavenging weapons, and then building the base defense. While i am annoyed at the amount of food i have to eat, i also keep in mind that this is an extremely active person, who probably uses 4k in calories a day.

 

This is an improved game, by a lot. I have been enjoying it. I killed a wolf today because i needed the food. Normally i would avoid those but now i can not let anything made of meat escape.

[Roland]

I honestly dont see it headed towards survival, its further from survival than its ever been. Locking certain game aspects behind a skill points is a poor choice, and like others have mentioned before me, its most likely to help console development.

 

I’ve seen this thrown out there a few times. I would love for someone to please explain how the new Perk system favors console development more than any other system?

 

Currently the consoles have crafting xp and skills don’t they? If legal matters get tied up for years then what we have now in A17 may never trickle down to console. So how on earth can you say that what we have now favors console when console already has the old system you want back?

 

So please do tell or go find Kubikus to tell. He often likes to answer these queries of mine.

[Guppycur]

Console generally means "dumbed down for the masses."

 

Interchangeable.

 

So now go re read every message with "console" in it.

 

Profit.

[Gazz]

1)Death penalty

This may still change in the future but it will not change soon.

The biggest issue with it is that it is new and for years there was no death penalty in this game at all so players will need time to adapt to the concept of "consequences".

 

 

2)Basic needs & stamina

It does get easier "late game" and it is supposed to.

 

 

3)Level gating

Very few things are actually gated. You can find many things randomly in loot and on traders and you can now repair any equipment without knowing the crafting recipe.

 

 

Also, after making a few character builds, it seems that one is forced to spread points in many perk trees at a time. Result is specialization being weak and the player being left with many extra points which he can't spend on the locked perks he wants and has to spread them out. Consequently, the level locked gating feels more annoying.

No easy solution.

Make all perks available at low levels and the perks need to be nerfed to not be OP.

Right now almost all of them are very much OP... at high tiers.

 

 

Raising the rate at which you get levels slightly, while adding incremental costs as a point sink to perk levels might solve this.

Incremental costs only turn this into a spreadsheet where you have to plan out your points well in advance.

 

 

Many things are not balanced very well, yet. That's no secret.

[RestInPieces]

I don't see any relevance to the console either, except if that post was intended for the Bethesda forums

 

It does get easier "late game" and it is supposed to.

 

Agree that it should, it's just that food stockpiling eliminates this need completely and abruptly. With spoilage mitigated by electricity, I don't believe the early game will be affected much and you could soften that "getting easier" curve towards late game, while creating another progression step.

 

No easy solution.

 

Gating must exist one way or another - the only question is if there is a way to make it look less like gating.

 

Incremental costs only turn this into a spreadsheet where you have to plan out your points well in advance.

 

Yes that's true. Maybe you can use a different kind of point sink that would be less restrictive. Anyway I trust that you will find a better solution to that, if you want to change point spreading in the future that is.

[Rockspider]

There is no need for a death penalty and the current one is not at all fair on the current lack of stamina food system that is implemented at the moment imho.

You want a true death penalty fine restart from the beginning if you want to play a true hardcore game. That would make more sense

[Viktoriusiii]

Agreed with most of your points.

But level-gating is a NO GO!!!

Give us less xp if you want to slow us down.

OR (better option in my opinion)

Make skills achievement based. (Lvl 2 miner69er requires you to have broken 2000hp in block durability, lvl 3 3500, lvl10 50000 (example!!! Has to be tweaked obviously)

Lvl 2 pistol 2000dmg with a pistol, headshot perk needs 10 headshots with a pistol and so on.

 

Because again: level-gating IS A NO GO!!!!

 

About the underground:

Threats like air would be 100x better, but I like that its at least not 100% free anymore

[RestInPieces]

There is no need for a death penalty and the current one is not at all fair on the current lack of stamina food system that is implemented at the moment imho.

You want a true death penalty fine restart from the beginning if you want to play a true hardcore game. That would make more sense

 

So would you prefer if the penalty deleted your character? Or are you talking about each person having self-imposed rules to decide their own consequences, or lack thereof?

 

Agreed with most of your points.

But level-gating is a NO GO!!!

 

Just curious, if, for whatever reason (like the incremental cost example in my post), you had much fewer points to spend all around, few enough that the level lock was not something that would actually restrict you, while level progression was more of less of the same rate, do you think it would be for better or for worse?

 

About the underground:

Threats like air would be 100x better, but I like that its at least not 100% free anymore

 

Hm, tried hiding deep near the bedrock, with active forges and an auger and didn't get any digging zombies for 2 horde nights

[Rockspider]

So would you prefer if the penalty deleted your character? Or are you talking about each person having self-imposed rules to decide their own consequences, or lack thereof?

 

I said there is no need for a death penalty! I still have trek out and find my bag etc.

No player wants to die I am sure and feel bad enough about it with out being beaten with a cripple stick afterwards!!

 

I do not understand this "consequences" you are referring to? like you have to be punished!!

 

Surly a true hardcore gamer would be in the mind "I died game over"!? Then back to level 0 punching grass or restarting a new world!

 

Not its ok as long as I get some "consequences" for dying! makes no sense to me at all.

[RestInPieces]

I do not understand this "consequences" you are referring to? like you have to be punished!!

 

Uh... this is how every game works, unless it's a pure sandbox, which is not the case here. Every game imposes rules to the player. Rules with actions and consequences are everywhere. Your hit points for example in any game are a "rule" with actions and consequence - you get hit only a number of times before your hit points get depleted. Should the game let the player in this particular example just "feel bad" about being hit and allow him to have infinite HP? The game is full of examples like that.

 

The problem is that you don't like this particular consequence. This particular consequence makes death matter, like the one in the HP example that makes being hit points matter. Because let's not kid outselves, it didn't matter and it was used to reset your status, teleport etc.

[Luzifer]

All I see here on the forums are 2 sides Beginning to face each other.

 

Team Survival must be accomplished

And

Team I dont wanna work for survival

 

I'm sitting in the first one, i Love the new "survival_should_matter" changes! I welcome them with wide doors Open and a cup of Coffee to be taken.

 

A6 was the last alpha where i felt threatened by something else than Zombies that came each night running into my face.

 

Now not only i have to put a tad more effort in proactive basebuilding (i am very oversecure in first week, always been), I too have to scavenge now much more to keep up with Hunger and thirst. Its way more fun now! GJ pimps Love it!

[Viktoriusiii]

Just curious, if, for whatever reason (like the incremental cost example in my post), you had much fewer points to spend all around, few enough that the level lock was not something that would actually restrict you, while level progression was more of less of the same rate, do you think it would be for better or for worse? [/Quote]

Yes.

Because it will FEEL like I have a choice.

It is the world that is restricting me.

While level-gating is the dev's restricting me.

 

And while most will probably be confused, I trust, that you know why that is a big difference

[HerrKingsley]

@Luzifer. Is that honestly what you got out of all these posts? lol

 

It's not a matter of "don't wanna work for survival" it's a matter of enjoying other parts of the game that you obviously do not appreciate.

And oldtime 7dtd:ers like us like us have a higher threshold of what is threatening and survival, that doesn't mean that everything below our standards are not work. (I would love to get my hands on A3 to see if i still think its terrifying and hard )

I have no problem with TFP telling us oldtimers that if you think its too easy go play on warrior mode. (But then warrior mode has to BE warrior mode.)

 

What i see on the forum is more of a different view on endgame.

Camp "Slow progress is a good way to handle getting to end game to fast."

and

Camp "Slow progress is NOT a good way to handle getting to end game to fast."

[Jude]

I for one, am definately LOVING the new alpha 17. Yes, it has it's issues. But as the OP stated, most of the things that come in with this patch is outstanding. It does feel more like survival. Long gone (i hope) are the days of old where one can just go willy nilly into a structure and leave unscathed and bored. This time time, if you go in fast, you die fast.

 

I agree about the level gating, I really do wish you all would consider reimplementing the book method I suggested earlier. Finding an instruction manual that doesnt disappear upon use but has to be in the players inventory, in my mind fixes the "level gate" and when the player has achieved that level needed to obtain the recipe via perks, the manual will no longer be needed. The strategy does come with it's own problems however, that of not spending points and just saving them for those rainy day moments when one needs a perk.

 

Aside from all that. I truly feel the pimps has reinvigorated the play of this game, at least for me (and it looks like others as well, which I am happy to see)

 

I am on day 4 of my A17 game. This morning I decided to investigate a little mom and pops food store. Bravo POI makers, Bravo. I had to run out of a hole in the wall on the third floor because I failed to check certain sections below me. When I re-entered the building, I found that these undead came from behind the damn wall fridges! Then as I reach the very top of this building.....the zed were quietly standing up in the rafters, had I gone fast, I don't feel I could of escaped as they fell all around me.

 

Great job Pimps. Game needs tweaking, sure, but please keep the nerfing down to a minimum

[GARGEAN]

This may still change in the future but it will not change soon.

The biggest issue with it is that it is new and for years there was no death penalty in this game at all so players will need time to adapt to the concept of "consequences".

 

Thing is - there was. And it was tied to thing I am missing already. Wellness. It was days and sometimes weeks for first ten point's of wellness to acquire, and you could loose all that in one dump step on building roof or one dog pack. Yes, later in game it wasn't hard at all with eating meat stew in packs and drinking solely red tea, but that system might have just been adjusted (slower acquiring and bigger death losses when closing to 200, faster and smaller when below 100). But it was removed for some unknown (to me) reasons.

[RestInPieces]

Yes.

Because it will FEEL like I have a choice.

It is the world that is restricting me.

While level-gating is the dev's restricting me.

 

And while most will probably be confused, I trust, that you know why that is a big difference

 

Yep, I understand. I'd prefer it as well. It may sound unimportant but they way of restriction does matter. Having the amount of points you get at the moment, being blocked by level gates and spreading points in areas you don't want to, feels much worse than having fewer points to spend and being restricted just by e.g. point cost (without progression rate changes). Surely still many would complain about the slow progression rate but I am willing to bet that it would leave a much better impression.

 

Thing is - there was. And it was tied to thing I am missing already. Wellness. It was days and sometimes weeks for first ten point's of wellness to acquire, and you could loose all that in one dump step on building roof or one dog pack. Yes, later in game it wasn't hard at all with eating meat stew in packs and drinking solely red tea, but that system might have just been adjusted (slower acquiring and bigger death losses when closing to 200, faster and smaller when below 100). But it was removed for some unknown (to me) reasons.

 

It was even harder to keep max wellness than keeping yourself death debuff-free now.

The thing is that as it has been said many times in there forums recently (MM described it well, don't have the time to find the post), wellness was "broken", because it was not worth building up and most players just stayed at min wellness (130 with perks) and used death as a free status reset and teleport. Also the more you had the less it mattered, analogically.

[GARGEAN]

It was even harder to keep max wellness than keeping yourself death debuff-free now.

The thing is that as it has been said many times in there forums recently (MM described it well, don't have the time to find the post), wellness was "broken", because it was not worth building up and most players just stayed at min wellness (130 with perks) and used death as a free status reset and teleport. Also the more you had the less it mattered, analogically.

Well, it wasn't bad by itself either. I am not opposing new death penalties. I am just missing wellness cuz personally found it small, rarely noticed but very neat and handful detail.