a17 - POI Fortification, Digging, and the "Swiss Cheese" Effect

[OldManBrian]

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Something I'm wondering about with the new AI and digging zombies in a17, is how is it going to effect base and landscape aesthetics?

 

For example, right now in a16 I really would like to build a cliff base or cave base built into the bottom of a mountain, but the problem is zombies just dig in from any which side they feel like you end up with a "Swiss Cheese" effect on the landscape all around you. It looks terrible and it just compounds as time goes on.

 

With the new AI, would they go find the actual entrance of the base and attack there, or do you still end up with random zombies digging random holes?

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The other thing is, right now when fortifying existing POI's like houses and such, the zombies prioritize the doors which makes for a logical defensive point. With the new AI it sounds like they are going to automatically go for the weakest points which would almost always NOT be the doors.

 

Does this mean that if you upgrade all of the bottom 3 outside blocks of a POI to the highest available tier and leave the doors slightly lower, that you can funnel the new a17 zombies to the entrances?

.

 

I'm just asking because I prefer the zombies to attack my entrances rather than requiring me to aesthetically make my home a bunker with every room having some type of defensible position to attack zombies outside. I like having a POI house still look like a house when I'm done with it, aside from a couple of subtle openings to fire out from by the entrances. Either way I'm good to give it a shot when it comes out, I was just wondering.

[Roland]

If you want zombies to attack your entrance then you must provide a path of least resistance to your entrance. If you make your entrance unreachable and the zombie can’t get to where you are they start attacking blocks below you. If your base is built into a cliff side then it will be natural terrain blocks they will be destroying.

[asmosnuts]

Aint no-one attacking my entrance! and dont even THINK about going round the back! The very idea! The things you youngsters get up to!!

[DarlingCows]

Don’t make an entrance just somewhere to land your gyrocopter.

[OldManBrian]

If you want zombies to attack your entrance then you must provide a path of least resistance to your entrance. If you make your entrance unreachable and the zombie can’t get to where you are they start attacking blocks below you. If your base is built into a cliff side then it will be natural terrain blocks they will be destroying.

 

Thanks for the answer!

 

If you have a cliffside stairway descending down from the top, do you think they would take the stairs to your front door or would they start shredding up the landscape to dig down to where the base is attached to the cliff?

 

Similarly, with a base at the bottom of a mountain cliff (like where a POI takes a round bite out of a mountain, creating a steep cliff, or the canyon in nav), would the zombies jump off the top of the cliff to get the the accessible entrance, or would they start just digging straight down from the top?

[LuckyStar]

I think TFP can avoid the Swiss Cheese nonsense by having blocks fill in behind the zombies as they dig.

[Maybe gravel or destroyed stone?]

 

No one wants holes everywhere.

Better to sacrifice a little realism for gameplay.

 

I think it's going to cause issues now about mining and what to do at night as well.

 

What do we do at night?

Can we still mine, I wonder?

 

A17 looks like it's going to be a fun build and adapting is going to be the key.

 

Can't wait!

[OldManBrian]

I think TFP can avoid the Swiss Cheese nonsense by having blocks fill in behind the zombies as they dig.

[Maybe gravel or destroyed stone?]

 

No one wants holes everywhere.

Better to sacrifice a little realism for gameplay.

 

I had the same thought too!

 

The main problem is the damage done to the landscape, I like that the zombies will endanger underground bases, but it's the visual aftermath that's a big problem. If the landscape filled in behind the zombies, or if they didn't actually damage the blocks but clipped into them and kind of "swim" through the dirt blocks to get down to where you are, then that would be the best.

 

Would actually be pretty great, zombies coming out of cave walls, forcing you to retreat back to your fortified mine entrance and make a stand. They'd have to make the AI see ground as "easier" to go through than blocks to get to the player, and to see empty caves as a preferable route so they prioritize getting to a cave first and then attacking the weakest blocks from there so they attack from an open area instead of in a wall.

 

I'm really liking this idea, zombies coming out of walls and attacking from within your existing caves.

[RestInPieces]

I had the same thought too!

 

The main problem is the damage done to the landscape, I like that the zombies will endanger underground bases, but it's the visual aftermath that's a big problem. If the landscape filled in behind the zombies, or if they didn't actually damage the blocks but clipped into them and kind of "swim" through the dirt blocks to get down to where you are, then that would be the best.

 

Would actually be pretty great, zombies coming out of cave walls, forcing you to retreat back to your fortified mine entrance and make a stand. They'd have to make the AI see ground as "easier" to go through than blocks to get to the player, and to see empty caves as a preferable route so they prioritize getting to a cave first and then attacking the weakest blocks from there so they attack from an open area instead of in a wall.

 

I'm really liking this idea, zombies coming out of walls and attacking from within your existing caves.

 

-noclip cheat for zombies? Wouldn't it be more like a "ghost-apocalypse" then?

[OldManBrian]

-noclip cheat for zombies? Wouldn't it be more like a "ghost-apocalypse" then?

 

Well, the animation would look like they're digging. Think about how zombies almost always look in classic horror movies when they come out of the ground, they don't leave holes, they wiggle through the dirt and climb out of it without leaving anything really behind.

[LuckyStar]

Well, the animation would look like they're digging. Think about how zombies almost always look in classic horror movies when they come out of the ground, they don't leave holes, they wiggle through the dirt and climb out of it without leaving anything really behind.

 

Yeah I'm okay with that.

 

Been playing games since I was 8 years old and that was 38 years ago.

In all these years I've noticed that when companies sacrifice gameplay for realism it's almost always a mistake.

 

[For some reason WWII simulators are the exception. Those players seem to want accuracy more than anything. Can't explain that.]

 

Better to have the game more fun and playable than realistic.

So what if physics say that zombies can't wiggle through dirt and stone?

FAAAAAAR better that than a bunch of holes all over the place.

 

Of course that's just my opinion. I respect anyone who disagrees.

[You are more than welcome to your "wrong" opinion.]

 

Live and let live I say. ^_^"

[RestInPieces]

Better to have the game more fun and playable than realistic.

So what if physics say that zombies can't wiggle through dirt and stone?

FAAAAAAR better that than a bunch of holes all over the place.

 

Here's an opinion! Neither of those two!

Why not go for both a fun/aesthetically pleasing and realistic solution?

I still stand by my awesome maggot underground threat suggestion! Definitely the bestest suggestion out there (in your face, once again)!

[LuckyStar]

Here's an opinion! Neither of those two!

Why not go for both a fun/aesthetically pleasing and realistic solution?

I still stand by my awesome maggot underground threat suggestion! Definitely the bestest suggestion out there (in your face, once again)!

 

Love that idea.

 

I was thinking something along those same lines.

 

Have an underground threat that shows up after a certain amount of time.

A "heat" level underground, just like screamers, that brings zombie worms or whatever.

 

That way you "could" spend a couple hours underground but stay the whole night and you've got problems.

 

I wonder.... does that mean we'll have underground defense systems in our mines?

Hahaha I kinda like the sound of that.

[Roland]

Thanks for the answer!

 

If you have a cliffside stairway descending down from the top, do you think they would take the stairs to your front door or would they start shredding up the landscape to dig down to where the base is attached to the cliff?

 

Similarly, with a base at the bottom of a mountain cliff (like where a POI takes a round bite out of a mountain, creating a steep cliff, or the canyon in nav), would the zombies jump off the top of the cliff to get the the accessible entrance, or would they start just digging straight down from the top?

 

Unless there is a bug they absolutely should use the stairs. The pathing grid would let them see the stairs and the airblocks they would be moving through by taking the stairs would be much less cost than digging. I think that the new meta in A17 is going to be creating kill corridors and using "paths of least resistance" to control the flow of zombies along a predetermined path designed by the player.

[Scyris]

I think TFP can avoid the Swiss Cheese nonsense by having blocks fill in behind the zombies as they dig.

[Maybe gravel or destroyed stone?]

 

No one wants holes everywhere.

Better to sacrifice a little realism for gameplay.

 

I think it's going to cause issues now about mining and what to do at night as well.

 

What do we do at night?

Can we still mine, I wonder?

 

A17 looks like it's going to be a fun build and adapting is going to be the key.

 

Can't wait!

 

I'd prefer dirt that matches that biome, or snow/destroyed stone for snow/wasteland biomes. Make the self repair happen after horde night, as thats most likely when the whole swiss cheese thing is going to happen. Even then it only has to repair maybe 2-3 blocks deep by the surface to just make it look nice.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Well, the animation would look like they're digging. Think about how zombies almost always look in classic horror movies when they come out of the ground, they don't leave holes, they wiggle through the dirt and climb out of it without leaving anything really behind.

 

Just like earthworms come to think of it. We can call them wormbies... Anyway seriously, yeah in zombie flicks its more like they were laying underneath some brush then actually in a hole or anything.

[JCrook1028]

So with self repair of the hole behind them then you cannot chase them down the hole to kill them? You have to wait til they reach the bottom? No thx.

[Euzio]

Never a huge fan of the whole zombies digging and swiss cheesing almost everything. I would much prefer that the zombies be able to find the path of least resistance and try to reach there. But that would be quite hard to do so since the zombies coding would have to be pretty advanced to do that.

[LuckyStar]

 

 

Just like earthworms come to think of it. We can call them wormbies....

 

Sooo diggin' the "Wormbies" name.

 

Uh... no pun intended.

[Damocles]

Never a huge fan of the whole zombies digging and swiss cheesing almost everything. I would much prefer that the zombies be able to find the path of least resistance and try to reach there. But that would be quite hard to do so since the zombies coding would have to be pretty advanced to do that.

 

A* with correct costs for movement will end up pretty much the same way a player would try to enter a closed base (without the ability to stack blocks to reach higher ground).

In most cases that would not mean digging through the ground, but attacking the door or wall next to it. As behind that door there is usually free space to move.

 

If the ground is easier to dig, they will choose to do that. Just as a knowledgeable player would when the doors have way to high HP.

 

If you dont want to have your home base all dug up, make a separate fortified defense base for horde night.

[Euzio]

A* with correct costs for movement will end up pretty much the same way a player would try to enter a closed base (without the ability to stack blocks to reach higher ground).

In most cases that would not mean digging through the ground, but attacking the door or wall next to it. As behind that door there is usually free space to move.

 

If the ground is easier to dig, they will choose to do that. Just as a knowledgeable player would when the doors have way to high HP.

 

If you dont want to have your home base all dug up, make a separate fortified defense base for horde night.

 

Hmm not exactly what I meant but then again my words were kinda misleading.

 

I'm not exactly referring to a fortified base but more of general zombie pathing. The wandering hordes can be a good example. Right now they are coded to walk from point A to B and once they reach that point, they will dissipate and wander around. However, during the transition from A to B, if they run into anything, be it a hill or house or prefab, if they encounter resistance with no viable pathway forward in the immediate vicinity, they'd just attack and attempt to dig their way through. This ends up swiss cheesing the landscape or POIs.

 

What I'm hoping is that rather than try to bash their way through everything, they'd simply just continue pathing along and go around or maybe even turn back if there is no viable path for them to go through. Zombies should pretty much be wandering around aimlessly without any set path (unless they spot something to feast on, i.e. the player). They aren't homing pigeons with internal compasses that says they must go from East to West only.

[OldManBrian]

So with self repair of the hole behind them then you cannot chase them down the hole to kill them? You have to wait til they reach the bottom? No thx.

 

Valid point, but the simple fix would be to only have them be able to dig if they are actively hunting you and trying to get to you, so you wouldn't be having to chase them. If they lose track of you, you could have them default to "digging" straight up to get back to the surface and wander off from there. Makes sense too, don't see a reason zombies would go through the trouble of randomly digging unless they were trying to specifically get to something.

 

Another possibility would be when they're digging, instead of having them damage the blocks, replace the blocks they "dig" with placeholder blocks that are invisible and have timers attached that cause them to re-appear as their original after a certain amount of time.

[Gamida]

Unless there is a bug they absolutely should use the stairs. The pathing grid would let them see the stairs and the airblocks they would be moving through by taking the stairs would be much less cost than digging. I think that the new meta in A17 is going to be creating kill corridors and using "paths of least resistance" to control the flow of zombies along a predetermined path designed by the player.

 

Got an image in my head of a really long stairway going up a mountain and zombies huffing and puffing trying to get up them. Then I got a picture of a big service elevator going up filled with zombies. The lot of them just standing there facing forward not moving....and muzak playing in the background. Then that is when the power gets cut for motion. Now they really do moan as they are stuck in the elevator with the muzak playing forever...maybe some Rick Astley.

 

That'll teach them to try and invade my base...

[LuckyStar]

Valid point, but the simple fix would be to only have them be able to dig if they are actively hunting you and trying to get to you, so you wouldn't be having to chase them. If they lose track of you, you could have them default to "digging" straight up to get back to the surface and wander off from there. Makes sense too, don't see a reason zombies would go through the trouble of randomly digging unless they were trying to specifically get to something.

 

Another possibility would be when they're digging, instead of having them damage the blocks, replace the blocks they "dig" with placeholder blocks that are invisible and have timers attached that cause them to re-appear as their original after a certain amount of time.

 

Some really good ideas!

 

TFP need to read to what you just wrote there.