Jedo Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 I'm pretty sure I don't have to respond to your little remarks where you select what you respond to and what you ignore. Particularly when you decide to ignore my factual arguments whenever they are inconvenient to you. Said the Pot to the Kettle... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menzagitat Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 Folks we are fine. We are putting our head down and trying to finish a very large and quite frankly over scoped build. The game has suffered from years of trying to make everyone happy with quick releases at the cost of sloppy framework which needs gutting. If we take a break to rip it out so be it. If we weren't so concerned with making you all happy then it might have gotten done right the first time. Just stay calm and zombie on we will survive and this build will ship. And console will get updated one way or another Cheers Richard Hi Richard, I understand how the technical dept is being accumulated over time and the need of it to be removed. I favor clean solutions over hacks and I hope your efforts will be rewarded. ( one way or another ) For the time being, stay focused and keep your motivation high. We all want a good game in the end. Thank you for your post! Menzagitat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 Hi Richard, I understand how the technical dept is being accumulated over time and the need of it to be removed. I favor clean solutions over hacks and I hope your efforts will be rewarded. ( one way or another ) For the time being, stay focused and keep your motivation high. We all want a good game in the end. Thank you for your post! Menzagitat Yes! One Hundred and One.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menzagitat Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 Yes! One Hundred and One.... I see what you did... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merlinfire Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mythical_Man-Month which is of course why major companies don't run a large staff, because more is worse...or something wait, no that's not true - - - Updated - - - Yeah you're right. Nothing was given. That $10/$12/$15 whatever it was must have really hit hard. 5 years, 16 Alphas. It's not like each update was some minor cosmetic change either. But whatever. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and expectation. He was absolutely right to smack you down. The claim (not just here, but on other games, in other communities) that we (the customer) are simply lucky to be able to be along for the ride, or that favors are being done for us that we don't deserve, is absurd. Whatever else early access MAY BE, it does not change the relationship between the customer and the company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merlinfire Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 If you bought the game on steam, you actually definitely did not pay money for a final product. Steam makes it very clear that you are buying a playable game that may or may not be continually developed in the future. It also clearly states that if you are not satisfied with the state of the game at the time of purchase, to NOT buy and keep instead keep an eye on the game's future development to see if it evolves to a state that you are satisfied with. Again, Steam makes it clear that you are purchasing the game as is at the time of purchase, but that you will also receive access to any and all future updates until it goes gold, assuming it ever does. What we are all waiting impatiently for is bonus content provided at no extra charge by TFP. Reading comprehension will save you from unhappiness with future purchases if you read carefully before you buy. If you have a problem with reading comprehension, you really should have someone without such difficulties read it to you. Just because you make the "It's just Early Access" argument into a 3-paragraph rant doesn't make it more impactful. Anyone who bought the game, no matter where they bought it, bought BOTH the current version, and whatever theoretical future version may come to fruition, to include the promise final features. - - - Updated - - - I'd like to take a moment to point out that this statement is wholly incorrect. What you paid money for, was access to the Alpha version that was available at the time you purchased. Anything that comes after is icing on the cake. You might want to go back and refresh yourself on the Seam Early Access Facts. https://store.steampowered.com/earlyaccessfaq/ And another....honestly, I wonder if you guys enjoy hearing yourselves talk. You're not impressing anyone with your knowledge of what EA is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spidey2832 Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 which is of course why major companies don't run a large staff, because more is worse...or something wait, no that's not true As a developer, Mythical Man Month is accurate. As with all things there are exceptions to the rule. But more often than not, it holds up. There are very frequently scenarios where adding more developers won't help and in many cases will hurt productivity. You have to have work that logically can be divvied up in order for adding resources to make sense. Throwing 10 guys at one feature isn't likely to go well. The major company argument is ridiculous. Larger company = more projects/work. More projects/work = more to divvy up. More to divvy up = larger staff. Even at a large company though, staffing up late in a project is likely going to decrease productivity. They’ve used 7 Days to Die to successfully build a multi-million dollar business and they aren’t going to take consultation for their business practices from random internet dudes who primarily use 7 Days to Die as leisure time-wasting fun. Feel free to disregard this as you have a multi-million dollar business and don't need the consultation of a random internet dude. You guys need to do something about PR in the worst way. There's countless examples through the years of the need for it. This one is staggeringly bad. You have to know how Richard's post is going to come off. Even if it's not actually his intent, it comes across as blaming the community for TFP's shortcomings. It's an exceptionally bad look. For what its worth, I'm perfectly satisfied with the countless hours I have gotten out of the game. Perfectly happy to wait on A17. Would rather it be done right than rushed. Can't wait to play it. Love what you guys do. Just pointing out that almost all the angst in the community over the past months could be so easily avoided with a half decent PR initiative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolliz Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 I still think the production time is absolutely abysmal. Truly seems like there's major issues internally. I'm on the fence of if TFP have abused the Early Access model. The Kickstarter model as well. I personally think, at this point, with this kind of communication and results, they have certainly crested over that requirement and are currently abusing both of those systems as well as mistreating the people who have paid into the game awaiting a final product. Do not tell me about Early Access games. I'm a grown adult. I know full well about gaming, production, money, expectations, professional results, professional appearances, etc = I likely know more about Early Access than you, so please don't give me that song and dance. Time will show that TFP are in default. It's time for them to produce some results. Well its just the downside of the early access model, ppl like u will speculate, pull information out of ur asses and jump to conclusions like monkeys in a tree. Upside is...we get to play a major part in the development of the game, unlike before 2010 ish when there wasnt early access games. And honestly, most ppl are getting tired of the argument "its taking too long, thefore they are scamming us". Without easrly access it would have taken longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damocles Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 which is of course why major companies don't run a large staff, because more is worse...or something wait, no that's not true - - - Updated - - - Its about ADDING programmers to a late project. Large companies run lots of small divisions and modular projects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedo Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 City of Titans ( https://cityoftitans.com/forums/announcements) has been in development for ~4.5 years with no EA. That means that nobody has been playing it during all of that time, whereas people have been playing 7DTD all through its development. This also means that they have remained a smaller team which has done large amounts of work on the side (i.e., after they come home from their paying jobs). Should we conclude that they have major internal issues? That they have abused Kickstarter? That they have abandoned their game? That they have mistreated their (future) customers? I'll let the wise sages who know so much about game development decide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 Feel free to disregard this as you have a multi-million dollar business and don't need the consultation of a random internet dude. You guys need to do something about PR in the worst way. There's countless examples through the years of the need for it. This one is staggeringly bad. You have to know how Richard's post is going to come off. Even if it's not actually his intent, it comes across as blaming the community for TFP's shortcomings. It's an exceptionally bad look. For what its worth, I'm perfectly satisfied with the countless hours I have gotten out of the game. Perfectly happy to wait on A17. Would rather it be done right than rushed. Can't wait to play it. Love what you guys do. Just pointing out that almost all the angst in the community over the past months could be so easily avoided with a half decent PR initiative. As I have stated, I too acknowledge the lack of PR. What I'm not ready to acknowledge yet is the need for it. I won't acknowledge that until the hard data comes back after A17 releases. If the numbers skyrocket back up and maintain and the reviews go back to positive then whether or not someone wants TFP to have a PR department smoothing out community angst or not is irrelevant. If TFP's reputation and goodwill with the community recovers just fine once the balm of A17 has been applied then they don't have to spend resources on something that ultimately doesn't matter. If the returning player numbers is lackluster and the trend shows a dying player base then you can bet that they will spend resources to shore things up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spidey2832 Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 As I have stated, I too acknowledge the lack of PR. What I'm not ready to acknowledge yet is the need for it. I won't acknowledge that until the hard data comes back after A17 releases. If the numbers skyrocket back up and maintain and the reviews go back to positive then whether or not someone wants TFP to have a PR department smoothing out community angst or not is irrelevant. If TFP's reputation and goodwill with the community recovers just fine once the balm of A17 has been applied then they don't have to spend resources on something that ultimately doesn't matter. If the returning player numbers is lackluster and the trend shows a dying player base then you can bet that they will spend resources to shore things up. Fair enough. I don't necessarily agree on all of this. I think theres more to PR than the numbers and reviews. But as a business I totally get that that would be the overwhelming measure. The best example I can think of off the top of my head for myself is EA and Madden. I loath EA for more things than I can count as does basically everyone I know. Will go out of my way to not play EA games. The one exception is Madden, cause I love football. Madden yearly has great sales. But everyone hates EA. The numbers aren't indicative of their PR. Obviously its a bit of different situation. TFP doesn't have decades of ill will built up. TFP is not EA. Just illustrating that even though the numbers and reviews may wind up exceptional, because quite frankly the game is fantastic, it doesn't mean you don't have a PR problem. Just my $.02. No real need to debate much more as my opinion on the matter is not going to influence a business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linewalker Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 I'd like to take a moment to point out that this statement is wholly incorrect. What you paid money for, was access to the Alpha version that was available at the time you purchased. Anything that comes after is icing on the cake. You might want to go back and refresh yourself on the Seam Early Access Facts. https://store.steampowered.com/earlyaccessfaq/ And another....honestly, I wonder if you guys enjoy hearing yourselves talk. You're not impressing anyone with your knowledge of what EA is. I'm fairly certain that they are sick and tired of having to repeat the same basic facts that everyone should have read, researched, and learned before they ever purchased the game. I'm almost positive that they are dead tired of having to teach entitled little children how software development cycles work. Yet here you are, giving them ♥♥♥♥ for trying to educate the idiots that abound on these forums. He didn't even give any attitude in that post. It's merely facts. Facts you should know. Facts you should have been aware of before your purchase. Facts that you are wholly chosing to ignore because it doesn't fit into your little picture of how you want it to be. You would much rather live in your pretty little alternate reality where your always right, and anyone with actual facts is wrong, or lying. You aren't impressing anyone with your stupidity either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telly G Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 Madden So what you're saying is we need John Madden as the official spokesman for The Fun Pimps? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdErHJk9GhA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 Fair enough. I don't necessarily agree on all of this. I think theres more to PR than the numbers and reviews. But as a business I totally get that that would be the overwhelming measure. The best example I can think of off the top of my head for myself is EA and Madden. I loath EA for more things than I can count as does basically everyone I know. Will go out of my way to not play EA games. The one exception is Madden, cause I love football. Madden yearly has great sales. But everyone hates EA. The numbers aren't indicative of their PR. Obviously its a bit of different situation. TFP doesn't have decades of ill will built up. TFP is not EA. Just illustrating that even though the numbers and reviews may wind up exceptional, because quite frankly the game is fantastic, it doesn't mean you don't have a PR problem. Just my $.02. No real need to debate much more as my opinion on the matter is not going to influence a business. I agree with you 100%. And I’m not saying that if numbers are huge it means that all is well. What I am talking about is the weight of evidence needed in order to move the needle. Companies won’t spend resources where they don’t believe a need exists. Low numbers would make the decision makers take notice and be open to change. High numbers are probably going to mean a continuation of business as usual. At least in this case the update is the solution to the actual problem. People are upset by a lack of communication that effectively reaches them and the slow development cycle for A17. When Alpha 17 releases that will be communication of great news that will also lay to rest fears of abandonment and frustration of not wanting to start a new game. Then for the next month communication between community and developers will be high during the experimental process. I for one am keen to see the returning player results this time around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spidey2832 Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 So what you're saying is we need John Madden as the official spokesman for The Fun Pimps? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdErHJk9GhA lol, now theres an idea. I agree with you 100%. And I’m not saying that if numbers are huge it means that all is well. What I am talking about is the weight of evidence needed in order to move the needle. Companies won’t spend resources where they don’t believe a need exists. Low numbers would make the decision makers take notice and be open to change. High numbers are probably going to mean a continuation of business as usual. At least in this case the update is the solution to the actual problem. People are upset by a lack of communication that effectively reaches them and the slow development cycle for A17. When Alpha 17 releases that will be communication of great news that will also lay to rest fears of abandonment and frustration of not wanting to start a new game. Then for the next month communication between community and developers will be high during the experimental process. I for one am keen to see the returning player results this time around. Cool. I see what you're saying. I'll do my part for the numbers. I'll be back. Can't wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garenman Posted October 13, 2018 Author Share Posted October 13, 2018 I'm fairly certain that they are sick and tired of having to repeat the same basic facts that everyone should have read, researched, and learned before they ever purchased the game. I'm almost positive that they are dead tired of having to teach entitled little children how software development cycles work. Yet here you are, giving them ♥♥♥♥ for trying to educate the idiots that abound on these forums. He didn't even give any attitude in that post. It's merely facts. Facts you should know. Facts you should have been aware of before your purchase. Facts that you are wholly chosing to ignore because it doesn't fit into your little picture of how you want it to be. You would much rather live in your pretty little alternate reality where your always right, and anyone with actual facts is wrong, or lying. You aren't impressing anyone with your stupidity either. Ummm....you're not getting anywhere with your attitude and I hope the mods don't commend your toxic behavior. The internet tough-guy routine is tired. I know a young guy like yourself just added the word "entitled" to your lexicon in the last couple years, but "teach entitled little children".....are you kidding? Many of us are grown adults that know when other grown adults are bull♥♥♥♥ting. But toxicity just because you don't like the guys opinion, which is actually well founded and many grown adults who have watched game development for decades would also easily agree, isn't going to get you anywhere. I've got money you're someone else in this same thread who made another account "linewalker" so you can troll without caring about getting your main account in trouble. "You aren't impressing anyone with your stupidity either" = You're not fooling anyone with your alt-account, in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedo Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 Ummm....you're not getting anywhere with your attitude... Were you talking to yourself? It would be good if you were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garenman Posted October 13, 2018 Author Share Posted October 13, 2018 Were you talking to yourself? It would be good if you were. I've never had a bad attitude. Just because my opinion doesn't match up with your in no remote way means I have a bad attitude. Not gonna get bullied and told I'm something I'm not, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedo Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 I've never had a bad attitude. Just because my opinion doesn't match up with your in no remote way means I have a bad attitude. Not gonna get bullied and told I'm something I'm not, either. You sure are good at reading things into conversations. Also, it's interesting that you won't be told that you're something you're not, but you don't seem to mind doing that about others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 Stop it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carbala Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 Stop it. Well said, sir. It seems this whole thread is indicative of what I've mentioned on another thread. The updates should probably be smaller and more frequent. If that's not possible, then TFP probably shouldn't start "advertising" them with video streams and vague statements about it being "coming along". This isn't the first update that's gone this way, and unfortunately is unlikely to be the last. It may be better not to announce anything about a release other than what's being planned for it (and keep it as dry as possible) until TFP are ready to release it. Then no one feels strung along, TFP doesn't have to defend itself from impatient fans, kumbah-f-ing-yah. Just my $0.02. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pApA^LeGBa Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 Skyrocketing back to numbers that where already reached isn´t exactly a sign that you don´t need better PR. More every year is what every business has to aim for. No matter if it is Pampers, Lockheed or TFP. And this game needs PR. It was needed already before the long waiting. Just look at the steam charts posted in the other thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian9824 Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 Skyrocketing back to numbers that where already reached isn´t exactly a sign that you don´t need better PR. More every year is what every business has to aim for. No matter if it is Pampers, Lockheed or TFP. And this game needs PR. It was needed already before the long waiting. Just look at the steam charts posted in the other thread. Well the last 3-4 updates have all hit new record highs. So we will see but I have no doubts that they will break their records again when A17 hits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scyris Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 If they had delivered the game they had originally pitched for Kickstarter it wouldn’t have nearly as amazing as it is. Smooth terrain and random worlds were originally a post release goal. They have far exceeded their promises and while its true the game isn’t finished it will be far more than what was originally going to be. AND you get to play it all the while it is being developed. I am confident time will prove the Pimps are true and are not abusing early access nor are they mistreating anyone. Mistreating would be if they closed access to the other builds until A17 came out. But, no, access continues unabated and developers converse daily with people here in the forums and progress updates are also given at least once a week. You can go to the Steam database and view the new builds being submitted as proof that work continues. Honestly i've finally gotten with the "its done when its done" thing. Do I want a17e to mess with? oh defently, I'd even take it in its current half functioning state. Now I am not going to complain its not here yet, I just go and play other games while checking in every few days to see how its coming along. As for people complaining etc, all I can say is this, 7dtd has the most hours in a single title i've played on steam, I have over 250+ games not including their dlc. The amount of playtime I got out of 7dtd, and still get out of it, made it one of the best purchaises I ever made on steam to this day. A large portion of the delay probally was caused by the engine change, not only do they have to recode alot of stuff probally, the shaders they had didn't work anymore so they had to make new ones and test them as well. A game engine update is often a big deal, and can introduce a hell of alot of problems. Another reason many 7dtd updates seem to be delayed is because the devs keep changing core mechanics and how progression etc works. To me the last few alphas never felt much diffrent, a17 however is nearly a whole new game with how everything just about has been redone. People also forget how many kickstarter games ended up just disappearing after the kickstarter ended, it happens more often than not. Its been years, and 7dtd is still worked on by the devs, which is more than you can say for most kickstarted titles. Not to mention I have mutiple early access titles where they bascally got abandoned by the devs before any offical release version even existed. If I was to worry about the future of the game, it'd be for the console version only, as the company that was porting it, is now gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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