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Hi - Im really worried about TFP and 7d2d


Garenman

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Seems Trolls rule over here too. Say the wrong thing and you get yelled at it for it.

 

No one is yelling at you.

 

I am a grown man and these people treat me like a child?

 

A real "grown man" never has to announce that he is a grown man.

 

I paid for a product and instead of being treated like a PAYING CUSTOMER I get treated as these DOOM and GLOOM trolls need to be treated. I have one Strike? Really? That does the very thing to your CUSTOMERS that you claim people like me do. Again with the "Do as I say not as I do" moderation style. Nice to see that getting stronger. Oh well I can not be bothered to come here often. Wanted to support TFP but that is not allowed if it upsets the snowflakes.

 

We all paid for the product. My guess is you have several hundred hours on this game already played, and you still feel cheated somehow. Who is a "snowflake" now?

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Ahhh. Dawg. I see you've made an account on here as well, in stead of just the Steam forum.. Welcome!

I fondly remember your caps-lock ridden.. speeches.. over there. Funny to see you mention yelling :)

 

Actually, I think the official forum is much more open to critique, and the moderators on here are doing a much better job, imho. Don't know exactly know who's moderating the Steam forums, but whenever I check them ~50% of the most recent threads are locked

 

I'd kinda like to read those, for a laugh. What's the username over there?

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...Don't know exactly know who's moderating the Steam forums, but whenever I check them ~50% of the most recent threads are locked

You're doing something wrong, because your estimate is wholly incorrect.

 

As it sits right now, these are the locked tallies for the most recent 50 threads in each section.

 

General Discussion 4

9 moved due to being posted in the incorrect forum.

 

Survivor Stories 0

 

Off Topic 16

The majority of which were locked because the Steam Community is incapable of having a civil discussion.

 

Bug\Crash Reports 0

 

Servers 0

 

Modding 0

 

General Questions 2

 

Console Talk 0

 

Now if we do the math... With 50 posts per forum section, and 8 sections totaled, that's 400 posts. Out of 400 posts, 22 are locked.

22 locked posts out of 400 total makes for 4%.

 

The facts speak for themselves.

 

If you're going to spread blatant lies, you should at least try to make it believable.

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You're doing something wrong, because your estimate is wholly incorrect.

 

As it sits right now, these are the locked tallies for the most recent 50 threads in each section.

 

General Discussion 4

9 moved due to being posted in the incorrect forum.

 

Survivor Stories 0

 

Off Topic 16

The majority of which were locked because the Steam Community is incapable of having a civil discussion.

 

Bug\Crash Reports 0

 

Servers 0

 

Modding 0

 

General Questions 2

 

Console Talk 0

 

Now if we do the math... With 50 posts per forum section, and 8 sections totaled, that's 400 posts. Out of 400 posts, 22 are locked.

22 locked posts out of 400 total makes for 4%.

 

The facts speak for themselves.

 

If you're going to spread blatant lies, you should at least try to make it believable.

He said "whenever I check", not "always". So he might've checked on days when the forums looked like this:

 

2018-10-0818_16_11-steam.png

 

Or like this:

 

2018-10-0818_16_38-steam.png

 

Or like this:

 

2018-10-0818_16_23-steam.png

 

It may also be assumed that he did not check all the forums, but only the main one, that you get to when you click "Discussions". If you like scientific research:

 

page - locked threads

 

1 - 1

2 - 0

3 - 3

4 - 3

5 - 4

6 - 1

7 - 4

8 - 3

9 - 1

10 - 6

11 - 10

12 - 4

13 - 0

14 - 7

15 - 3

 

That makes 50 closed threads on 15 pages with 15 posts each, so 50 of 225, and that again is not 50% but 22%. Of the main forum. Since we're professional researchers and statisticians, we have to compare the rate with other games. And so I did:

 

Project Zomboid

18 locked threads on 15 pages = 8%

 

Empyrion

7 locked threads on 15 pages = 3%

 

Ark

1 locked thread on 15 pages = 0.5%

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You're doing something wrong, because your estimate is wholly incorrect.

 

[snip]

 

Okay, sure. I was wrong about the actual numbers there with my guess. I only looked at the general discussions, and I don't check those forums all the time. Last time I checked was around the time MM published his video. Guess that increased the amount of locked threads.

 

I still don't see much locked/removed threads on this forum though, and I have the feeling the amount of banning going on here is much less than on Steam. Of course, one doesn't see everything which is removed..

The moderators here appear much friendlier (Roland comes to mind) in my experience. He is almost always civil and I don't think I've seen him be angry or something.

 

I mean, for example, I wouldn't expect him to say that the forum-goers here are incapable of having a civil discussion, like you said in your post. That would make a poor community moderator, would it not?

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Since we're professional researchers and statisticians, we have to compare the rate with other games. And so I did:

 

Project Zomboid

18 locked threads on 15 pages = 8%

 

Empyrion

7 locked threads on 15 pages = 3%

 

Ark

1 locked thread on 15 pages = 0.5%

 

Who says those aren't closer to 22% on other days (since, apparently, it can depend on the day)? Also, which 15 pages did you use? Ark has nearly 100 pages.

 

I find your sampling to be unsatisfactory.

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Who says those aren't closer to 22% on other days (since, apparently, it can depend on the day)?
But the 22% on the 7dtd forum is not on a day, it's the whole main forum. That's why my methodology is better than just looking at a few recent pages. The bigger the sample, the more meaningful the result, right.

 

Also, which 15 pages did you use? Ark has nearly 100 pages.
I used the first 15 pages of those four game forums that you get to when you click "Community Hub -> Discussions".

 

I find your sampling to be unsatisfactory.

 

Because you don't like the outcome. Would I use the whole forums of the other games, the result might even be... "worse"? The percentage of closed threads in those other games' forums might be even lower.

 

Sylents methodology is actually a lot more unsatisfactory if you're interested in facts. Of course the rate of locked threads will be much lower in other forum sections. Why would threads in "Servers", "Bug Reports" or "Modding" be closed? Criticism of the company will happen in the main forum. "Survivor Stories", just btw, only has 12 threads, not 50, so the actual math... Well, now that I look at it more closely, 22 posts out of 400 is not 4%, but 5.5%. The "formular" is

 

closed threads * 100 / total threads

 

And with that one forum only having 12 threads, the correct math would be

 

22 * 100 / 362 = 6%

 

Anyway, you may feel free to provide a sampling that is more to your liking, as always, I was simply being objective.

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That's why my methodology is better than just looking at a few recent pages. The bigger the sample, the more meaningful the result, right.

 

Because you don't like the outcome. Would I use the whole forums of the other games, the result might even be... "worse"? The percentage of closed threads in those other games' forums might be even lower.

 

Anyway, you may feel free to provide a sampling that is more to your liking, as always, I was simply being objective.

 

You say funny things.

 

I don't really care about the results or the conclusions. I just find it strange when people try to back up their position with "facts" or "logic" and they do so inconsistently (to say the least). That's why I didn't bother to comment on Sylen's work. Only when you clapped back with some supposedly "scientific" approach did I care to interject. You had a selective sample which neither was random (and therefore not free from your bias) nor representative (since the first fifteen pages are the most recent posts and therefore the most likely not to have received mod intervention). When you come up with a better methodology for comparing other games with 7dtd, feel free to let me know.

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You say funny things.

 

I don't really care about the results or the conclusions. I just find it strange when people try to back up their position with "facts" or "logic" and they do so inconsistently (to say the least). That's why I didn't bother to comment on Sylen's work. Only when you clapped back with some supposedly "scientific" approach did I care to interject. You had a selective sample which neither was random (and therefore not free from your bias) nor representative (since the first fifteen pages are the most recent posts and therefore the most likely not to have received mod intervention). When you come up with a better methodology for comparing other games with 7dtd, feel free to let me know.

 

Out of curiousity; which one of these posts (Sylen's or Kubikus) do you consider to use a non-random and non-representative 'scientific' approach? I'm guessing neither, right? But you only replied to Kubikus' post, not to Sylen's.. how come?

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You say funny things.
no u

 

I don't really care about the results or the conclusions. I just find it strange when people try to back up their position with "facts" or "logic" and they do so inconsistently (to say the least). That's why I didn't bother to comment on Sylen's work. Only when you clapped back with some supposedly "scientific" approach did I care to interject. You had a selective sample which neither was random (and therefore not free from your bias) nor representative (since the first fifteen pages are the most recent posts and therefore the most likely not to have received mod intervention). When you come up with a better methodology for comparing other games with 7dtd, feel free to let me know.
My sample is not selective at all, it is simply the first 15 pages, which in case of 7dtd is the whole forum. And so I checked the first 15 pages of the other three games, which seems to be the fairest way to compare. But for fun, I accept your criticism and check the three other forums completely (only the main forum of course).

 

When I check all 19 pages of the Project Zomboid forum, I find 22 locked threads. The last page only has 9 posts, so the math is

 

18*15 + 9 = 279 threads

 

22 * 100 / 279 = 7.9 % closed threads

 

My original finding was 8% - pretty much the same.

 

Empyrion has 27 full pages with a total of 11 locked threads.

 

11 * 100 / 405 = 2.7%

 

My original finding was 3% - pretty much the same.

 

Ark has 88 full pages with a total of 11 locked threads.

 

11 * 100 / 1320 = 0.8%

 

My original finding was 0.5% - pretty much the same.

 

So both my methodology and my finding that 7dtd's forum is by far the most heavily moderated are valid.

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So both my methodology and my finding that 7dtd's forum is by far the most heavily moderated are valid.

 

Curious question.

How many moderators do the other forums have?

 

Could it be possible that they simply don't have enough moderators to catch and deal with all the reports? It's been my experience that most companies focus on their own forums, and largely ignore the Steam forums.

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My sample is not selective at all, it is simply the first 15 pages, which in case of 7dtd is the whole forum. And so I checked the first 15 pages of the other three games, which seems to be the fairest way to compare.

 

That is selective (since it is not all), and you chose what seemed to be the fairest comparison. I already pointed out why there could be flaws in that. (I'll point out another: You only looked at three other games. Why are those "fair comparisons"?)

 

So both my methodology and my finding that 7dtd's forum is by far the most heavily moderated are valid.

 

Not quite. Notice how those are just the active topics. What happens to the "inactive" topics, the ones which don't receive comments (like locked threads)? Also, what if the moderators of some games choose to delete topics rather than simply locking them? The Steam Guidelines indicate that that is a possible moderator action.

 

Have you ever actually read the methodology of research studies? They frequently are quite long as the researchers detail why they chose to analyze what they did, how credible that is, and what holes there might be in their methodology. They also usually admit their own bias for why they chose to pursue the research in the first place. None of this necessarily means that their results are not valid/worthwhile/actionable, but it usually means that there is more to the story.

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Curious question.

How many moderators do the other forums have?

 

Could it be possible that they simply don't have enough moderators to catch and deal with all the reports? It's been my experience that most companies focus on their own forums, and largely ignore the Steam forums.

 

Not sure about all the other games from that list, but I can tell you about Empyrion, as I play it myself. They don't have as many locked threads because the level of frustration with the game is much lower. You may find it interesting, because Empyrion has tons and tons of bugs, things that aren't working (right or at all), mechanics that make no sense whatsoever - you name it. If you google "Empyrion sucks" you'll get more hits than if you do the same for 7D2D. And yet overall satisfaction is greater, as you get constant feedback and regular updates.

 

I understand that TFP is working on some major changes to the game right now and cannot do frequent updates. They, however, could simply post regular "Status" updates of some kind, describing the things they have accomplished in the prior month. With screenshots, may be? That would satisfy most folks around here, myself included. It truly bothers me that they choose not to do that.

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Not sure about all the other games from that list, but I can tell you about Empyrion, as I play it myself. They don't have as many locked threads because the level of frustration with the game is much lower. You may find it interesting, because Empyrion has tons and tons of bugs, things that aren't working (right or at all), mechanics that make no sense whatsoever - you name it. If you google "Empyrion sucks" you'll get more hits than if you do the same for 7D2D. And yet overall satisfaction is greater, as you get constant feedback and regular updates.

 

I understand that TFP is working on some major changes to the game right now and cannot do frequent updates. They, however, could simply post regular "Status" updates of some kind, describing the things they have accomplished in the prior month. With screenshots, may be? That would satisfy most folks around here, myself included. It truly bothers me that they choose not to do that.

 

Agree 100%. It goes against the spirit of Early Access otherwise. Empyrion as you mentioned, while often buggy due to the very frequent updates does have a very healthy feedback mechanism between developers and the early access customers. They put up polls and discussions for various changes they are considering. They ask for feedback on a new feature or mechanic and change it if it's not well-receieved. They give access to frequent experimental builds and ask for opinions, etc,etc. It's a back and forth and the end result is that the early access program helps SHAPE that game much moreso than a game where you don't receive much direct communication on actual mechanisms and feedback requests on them. If you wait a year+ to drop an update and then said update has literally hundreds if not thousands of changes - feedback is chaos. Empyrion and even Project Zomboid to some degree; have a much more optimistic and friendly early access environment (in my opinion).

 

Pimps can and will do whatever they want - but there will be some negativity that comes with their more detached method from the younger\less patient people. I've been saying since the last couple years now that this game isn't really an 'Early Access' game in the way I traditionally thought of them. The idea that each update is "Like a whole new game" and there isn't any option to participate in more frequent experimental (bugs and all) builds and offer feedback is proof of that - because you can't help shape a game when you just get dumped huge updates with lots and lots of changes.

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That is selective (since it is not all),

 

It is not selective, because the 15 pages are dictated by the 15 pages available at the 7dtd forums. Sylent's selection is selective. Mine isn't.

 

and you chose what seemed to be the fairest comparison. I already pointed out why there could be flaws in that.

 

You believe there could be flaws. That does not mean there really could be flaws, let alone that there actually are flaws. I showed you that the percentage of locked threads remains pretty much the same when I check all posts, instead of just the first 15 pages. It's no surprise that you dropped your point.

 

(I'll point out another: You only looked at three other games. Why are those "fair comparisons"?)

 

Because I know that these three other games are normal forums with a normal number of locked threads. Actually, the Project Zomboid is a bit above the norm. They are, however, examples of how many locked threads forums on Steam usually have. Just have a look yourself.

 

Not quite. Notice how those are just the active topics. What happens to the "inactive" topics, the ones which don't receive comments (like locked threads)?

 

I don't know what you are talking about.

 

Also, what if the moderators of some games choose to delete topics rather than simply locking them? The Steam Guidelines indicate that that is a possible moderator action.

 

If they delete topics rather than simply locking them, why do these forums still have locked topics? If deletion is a common practice, we don't know how many topics are deleted on the 7dtd forums. I admit, though, that it is a valid point that I should research before I publish my study in a scientific magazine.

 

Have you ever actually read the methodology of research studies? They frequently are quite long as the researchers detail why they chose to analyze what they did, how credible that is, and what holes there might be in their methodology. They also usually admit their own bias for why they chose to pursue the research in the first place. None of this necessarily means that their results are not valid/worthwhile/actionable, but it usually means that there is more to the story.

 

lol

 

My study is so simple and basic, that I don't need to write 50 pages about my methodology. I simply counted locked threads and the number of total threads. It is science as in using the scientific method and empirical evidence, but not rocket science.

 

Besides all that, is it clear to us all why so many threads are locked on the 7dtd steam forum.

 

 

Out of curiousity; which one of these posts (Sylen's or Kubikus) do you consider to use a non-random and non-representative 'scientific' approach? I'm guessing neither, right? But you only replied to Kubikus' post, not to Sylen's.. how come?
That as well is clear to us all, just like it's clear to us all why once again, for the n-th time, I am the one who called out for arguing with more than one or two one-liners:

 

You really enjoy arguing don't you? With walls of text of course.....

 

Just an observation.

Same old same old.

 

 

Curious question.

How many moderators do the other forums have?

No idea.

 

Could it be possible that they simply don't have enough moderators to catch and deal with all the reports? It's been my experience that most companies focus on their own forums, and largely ignore the Steam forums.
I find that highly unlikely, because these days you can get moderators for free, there are enough people who simply enjoy having that tiny bit of power over others. And a game like Ark can certainly afford to pay moderators. And as I just said, we all know why 7dtd gets so much negative feedback these days.
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no u

 

My sample is not selective at all, it is simply the first 15 pages, which in case of 7dtd is the whole forum. And so I checked the first 15 pages of the other three games, which seems to be the fairest way to compare. But for fun, I accept your criticism and check the three other forums completely (only the main forum of course).

 

When I check all 19 pages of the Project Zomboid forum, I find 22 locked threads. The last page only has 9 posts, so the math is

 

18*15 + 9 = 279 threads

 

22 * 100 / 279 = 7.9 % closed threads

 

My original finding was 8% - pretty much the same.

 

Empyrion has 27 full pages with a total of 11 locked threads.

 

11 * 100 / 405 = 2.7%

 

My original finding was 3% - pretty much the same.

 

Ark has 88 full pages with a total of 11 locked threads.

 

11 * 100 / 1320 = 0.8%

 

My original finding was 0.5% - pretty much the same.

 

So both my methodology and my finding that 7dtd's forum is by far the most heavily moderated are valid.

 

It's pretty damn flawed. I mean your looking at it at a specific point of time thats pivotal to one game, but unrelated to others. If you were to look at the 7dtd forum 1 month after A17 release you would see vastly different numbers.

 

if you looked at the Ark forums after they released paid DLC or got sued you would see totally different numbers. Looking at 1 example at 1 point of time is never meaningful in anyway.

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It is not selective, because the 15 pages are dictated by the 15 pages available at the 7dtd forums. Sylent's selection is selective. Mine isn't.

 

Thanks for putting right up front the evidence that you don't know what you are talking about. You yourself pointed out that the 15 pages of the 7dtd forum is the totality of the 7dtd forum; so, instead of saying that you would check the totality of the other forums as well, you selectively chose to stick only with the first 15 pages. Mind you, I'm only correcting your claims to impartiality and sound methodology, since you are the one who claimed to be a "professional researcher and statistician." Sure, that was sarcasm, but you wielded it against Sylen then turned right around and demonstrated your own inadequacy in that area.

 

You believe there could be flaws. That does not mean there really could be flaws, let alone that there actually are flaws. I showed you that the percentage of locked threads remains pretty much the same when I check all posts, instead of just the first 15 pages. It's no surprise that you dropped your point.

 

It is true that just because I believe something does not make it so. I never claimed that it did. The flaws in your argument and methodology exist independently of what you or I believe. Researchers re-conduct studies with slightly different parameters all the time because of flaws in their methodology and to weed out bias from their results. Just because they get similar answers in the later studies does not mean that those flaws were not present. It also doesn't mean that the results of any of those is actually representative. Think about election predictions and how they can be wrong, even if many of them agree.

 

Because I know that these three other games are normal forums with a normal number of locked threads. Actually, the Project Zomboid is a bit above the norm. They are, however, examples of how many locked threads forums on Steam usually have. Just have a look yourself.

 

So you chose them because of your biased opinion beforehand that they represent "normal." I already knew that, but I appreciate you admitting it.

 

I don't know what you are talking about.

 

I'm not surprised you just dropped this one. In your study of these forums, it wasn't strange to you that there is only 2-3 months worth of data? What about the rest of them? Does your sampling stand up over all 231,245 threads for ARK? I mean, 225 entries is less than 0.01%. Not a very good sample size. (Brian expanded this point to bring out more of why this is a flaw...even if you don't recognize it as one.)

 

If they delete topics rather than simply locking them, why do these forums still have locked topics? If deletion is a common practice, we don't know how many topics are deleted on the 7dtd forums. I admit, though, that it is a valid point that I should research before I publish my study in a scientific magazine.

 

Preferably you would admit this before claiming that your researching and statistical skills are superior to others when they actually aren't.

 

My study is so simple and basic, that I don't need to write 50 pages about my methodology. I simply counted locked threads and the number of total threads. It is science as in using the scientific method and empirical evidence, but not rocket science.

 

Besides all that, is it clear to us all why so many threads are locked on the 7dtd steam forum.

 

I wasn't suggesting that you need to write a methodology. My point was that those methodologies are there to show that even scientific studies conducted by actual professionals have flaws and bias. The difference between them and you is that they admit this fact for people to scrutinize rather than hiding behind wordplay, handwaving, and lols.

 

You have made a mockery of the scientific method here, and you cap it off by appealing to popular opinion. It is clear to all of us that you have no idea what you are talking about. If anybody needs more evidence of this fact, your last two replies should suffice as you admit to more glaring holes in your logic:

 

No idea.

 

I find that highly unlikely, because these days you can get moderators for free, there are enough people who simply enjoy having that tiny bit of power over others. And a game like Ark can certainly afford to pay moderators. And as I just said, we all know why 7dtd gets so much negative feedback these days.

 

Feel free to respond (or not) however you like, but do us all a favor and don't pretend that your response will be based on logic. It's clear that you don't possess that ability.

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It's pretty damn flawed. I mean your looking at it at a specific point of time thats pivotal to one game, but unrelated to others. If you were to look at the 7dtd forum 1 month after A17 release you would see vastly different numbers.

 

if you looked at the Ark forums after they released paid DLC or got sued you would see totally different numbers. Looking at 1 example at 1 point of time is never meaningful in anyway.

 

(lol)

 

Yeah, as I said, we all know why people are upset with 7dtd. That's why so many more threads get locked on the 7dtd steam forums than normally.

 

The fact that a logical explanation exists for the numbers I present, does not make those numbers or my methodology flawed. It's just the logical explanation behind said numbers, and thus a further confirmation of my study's validity. Opposed to the portrayal that with 4% the number of locked threads would be completely average and comparable to any other game forum on steam.

 

It's like two bald men fighting over a comb. What's the point?
Finding truth. Counter question: What's the problem?

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

snip
It's just too much ad hominem and too little reason. As usual. So: Have a good day, Sir.
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Ever considered that you might be doing something wrong? Just saying that your main arguments are like "away with gloom & doom trolls" (whatever that means), "ban the negativity" (because that will surely dispell the negativity and make things better), "whoever has a different view is ignorant" (without explaining how game development works).

 

DAWG is very much a condescending, rude person at the Steam forums as well who immeditately jumps down LITERALLY anyone's post the moment it goes up. He berates and belittles people who have anything critical to say about 7 Days. Glad to see him be reigned in just a bit.

 

The worst part, is that he behaves like an adult in other forums on Steam. Yet in the 7 Days forum, Dawg is completely a different person. Utterly toxic. Glad he got a reminder.

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Ahhh. Dawg. I see you've made an account on here as well, in stead of just the Steam forum.. Welcome!

I fondly remember your caps-lock ridden.. speeches.. over there. Funny to see you mention yelling :)

 

Actually, I think the official forum is much more open to critique, and the moderators on here are doing a much better job, imho. Don't know exactly know who's moderating the Steam forums, but whenever I check them ~50% of the most recent threads are locked

 

I agree with this completely. The way the Steam forum is run is utterly embarrassing. I've never seen such a poorly moderated forum.

 

Nice to see someone else point out that just because you're a staunch suppoerter of TFP, DAWG, you're still very toxic to anyone with an opposing opinion.

 

Thing is, his behavior is rewarded at the Steam forum. Glad to see this place has a little more sense.

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