Some constructive criticism (based on MM's newest video)

[gamemeister]

Note that everything I say here is based on what I've seen from the video, I'll reserve my final opinions until I actually love play A17. Also, I think I should note here that I love 7d2d and will be playing the hell out of A17 when it comes out. Alright now to the criticism. First thing, loot from zombies was fine the way it was...why did it need to be changed? Maybe it could've used a little bit of tweaking but this is too much I'd say. The way it was the zombies were a good source of many things, sure sometimes all you'd get was junk but that's the same with all loot containers in the entire game. Next, the arrows being able to be reused is something I've wanted for a while, though I hope it won't be too annoying to collect the arrows...doesn't look to be right now but we'll see. Alright, on to the backpack. The default size for the backpack should've stayed the same imo, then have a way to increase it from there, why lower the default? Even with the old default and even 10-15 more slots you wouldn't be able to carry everything at once. Lastly, the new stamina and health bar is just horrid to me. Why would we want to know how much stamina or health we're using when we don't even know how much we have. I say change back to the old system, maybe keep the losing stam permanently when doing activities and needing to eat/drink to regain it but other than that this system is a big no for me, but of course I'll wait until I play it to decide whether I truly hate it or not, looking like I will but maybe it's better than I think. That's about all I've got for now. Honestly, that video really didn't show too much at all especially considering it's a 45 min video. Love the game and think TFP's are doing a very good job but this was just some constructive criticism, basically some things to take into consideration. Let me know if you agree, or disagree either way is fine with me, I'd like to hear some others opinions on these things.

[merlinfire]

Yes, nearly everyone who saw the video feels the same as you do. As do pretty much everyone who plays the game regularly. Will it get changed? Hard to say.

[gamemeister]

Yes, nearly everyone who saw the video feels the same as you do. As do pretty much everyone who plays the game regularly. Will it get changed? Hard to say.

 

Honestly, I really hope some of it does get changed. I love this game, I really do but if these things (especially the zombie loot, that's the biggest issue for me) stay the way they were in the video I can't see myself playing A17 as much as some most of the other updates.

[NBornkilla]

we need to let Joel explain the changes , but we also need to let Joel know changing something that made this game fun is a risky move

[Gmad03]

I’m fine with any changes but the real criticism is Joel needs some structure in his videos. They are always rough. He should at least jot down some talking points. Would help make a 45 min video of ramble much better imo.

[gamemeister]

I’m fine with any changes but the real criticism is Joel needs some structure in his videos. They are always rough. He should at least jot down some talking points. Would help make a 45 min video of ramble much better imo.

 

Gotta agree there. I skipped over most of the video occasionally stopping when I saw something that looked to be new. Obviously, all the new prefabs are there but I wanna explore those myself without being spoiled...also no offense to him but Joel is pretty noobie at the game so watching him is pretty painful for me. As I said, no offense to him, I'm sure if he played more he'd be better but I can understand not wanting to play your own game. Also, he probably doesn't have too much time to do so anyway, much rather he develop the game than get better at it for the sake of making videos lol.

[AaronG85]

Alright now to the criticism. First thing, loot from zombies was fine the way it was...why did it need to be changed? Maybe it could've used a little bit of tweaking but this is too much I'd say. The way it was the zombies were a good source of many things, sure sometimes all you'd get was junk but that's the same with all loot containers in the entire game.

 

My understanding is nothing really has changed besides the gore blocks. If a Zombie would normally drop loot instead of a gore block a bag will now appear instead. The thing that remains unanswered is where we will find bones and fat.

 

Next, the arrows being able to be reused is something I've wanted for a while, though I hope it won't be too annoying to collect the arrows...doesn't look to be right now but we'll see.

 

I hope not all arrows are retrievable maybe like 50% to take into realistic damage to the arrow once it enters a human body

 

Alright, on to the backpack. The default size for the backpack should've stayed the same imo, then have a way to increase it from there, why lower the default? Even with the old default and even 10-15 more slots you wouldn't be able to carry everything at once

.

 

Have to say I agree I wish the default available was the same and then unlocked more, maybe even an increase to the amount we can craft at one time.

[gamemeister]

My understanding is nothing really has changed besides the gore blocks. If a Zombie would normally drop loot instead of a gore block a bag will now appear instead. The thing that remains unanswered is where we will find bones and fat.

 

I hope not all arrows are retrievable maybe like 50% to take into realistic damage to the arrow once it enters a human body

 

Have to say I agree I wish the default available was the same and then unlocked more, maybe even an increase to the amount we can craft at one time.

 

Pretty sure Joel said there'll be less zombie loot but not none, not 100% sure though I'd have to check again, though pretty sure because if you notice not a single zombie in the video (unless I missed it, I was skipping through at some points) dropped any loot of any kind, though maybe this is just a balancing thing as he did say that zombies would still drop loot and it's gotta be more than what we saw in the video. As for bones and fat maybe they increased the amount of those that animals give? I hope not all arrows are retrievable as well, I think stone arrows should have more chance to break than iron, iron more than steel, etc. This way there's more incentive to use the higher tiers of arrow than just damage because let's be honest the stone arrows are already way too good damage wise depending on your bow's quality of course, or at least they were don't know if they are in A17 or not. As for the backpack well, we'll just have to see if they decide to change it to the default from before but still have a way to get extra slots

[eidobunny]

Yeah I'll have to see how it plays out but less zombie drops seems bad unless you increase passive gains like exp or include more quests to kill large amounts of zombies. The problem is that lack of rewards will incentivize avoiding battle instead of seeking battle. Why should I bother with 7th nights at all if there's no payoff? Especially when you get into late game and your turrets are chewing through hundreds of bullets in a night. There needs to at least be a way to recoup your losses. I get that it's tower defense and there needs to be a resource sink, but just from the first look it seems more practical to just ride a minibike around on 7th nights.

 

As for the bones and fat that doesn't really matter. They could easily change recipes to make it take less bones, or give more bones to animals, etc.

[Roland]

Note that everything I say here is based on what I've seen from the video, I'll reserve my final opinions until I actually love play A17. Also, I think I should note here that I love 7d2d and will be playing the hell out of A17 when it comes out. Alright now to the criticism. First thing, loot from zombies was fine the way it was...why did it need to be changed? Maybe it could've used a little bit of tweaking but this is too much I'd say. The way it was the zombies were a good source of many things, sure sometimes all you'd get was junk but that's the same with all loot containers in the entire game. Next, the arrows being able to be reused is something I've wanted for a while, though I hope it won't be too annoying to collect the arrows...doesn't look to be right now but we'll see. Alright, on to the backpack. The default size for the backpack should've stayed the same imo, then have a way to increase it from there, why lower the default? Even with the old default and even 10-15 more slots you wouldn't be able to carry everything at once. Lastly, the new stamina and health bar is just horrid to me. Why would we want to know how much stamina or health we're using when we don't even know how much we have. I say change back to the old system, maybe keep the losing stam permanently when doing activities and needing to eat/drink to regain it but other than that this system is a big no for me, but of course I'll wait until I play it to decide whether I truly hate it or not, looking like I will but maybe it's better than I think. That's about all I've got for now. Honestly, that video really didn't show too much at all especially considering it's a 45 min video. Love the game and think TFP's are doing a very good job but this was just some constructive criticism, basically some things to take into consideration. Let me know if you agree, or disagree either way is fine with me, I'd like to hear some others opinions on these things.

 

1) Zombies can't be looted. This was changed for performance reasons and to solve myriad duping exploits. Really, it comes down to a time saver. If the zombie has something it drops a bag and if it doesn't then it simply disappears. The benefits of this are as follows:

+ No need to check bodies that mostly come up empty anyway. Any dropped bags are guaranteed to have loot.

+ No cleanup and better performance since everything disappears

+ No onscreen text tipping you off that they are really dead dead. This is a huge plus for me personally.

 

2) The backpack is only five slots smaller than you are used to (vanilla) in A16. You have 32 slots now and in A17 you will have 27 slots. If you spend all your points from the first tutorial quest which you can finish easily by 9am of the first day you can get your backpack slots up to 37 slots which is two more than you are used to in A16-- from DAY 1. It just depends on how you want to spend your points. It is entirely your choice. Pretty fair I'd say.

 

3) I clarified the Integrated Survival System in a separate thread. Madmole made some mistakes in his explanation of it. Personally, I think it is awesome. You know everything you need to know at a glance.

 

I'm glad you are reserving final judgement until you can play with it. I'm sure TFP will want to know feedback based on playing and remember that none of these changes can be considered final until the game is released so if you hate it after playing please do post that feedback.

[Survager]

1) Zombies can't be looted. This was changed for performance reasons and to solve myriad duping exploits. Really, it comes down to a time saver. If the zombie has something it drops a bag and if it doesn't then it simply disappears. The benefits of this are as follows:

+ No need to check bodies that mostly come up empty anyway. Any dropped bags are guaranteed to have loot.

+ No cleanup and better performance since everything disappears

+ No onscreen text tipping you off that they are really dead dead. This is a huge plus for me personally.

 

And again. What about the flesh blocks (gore block)? Earlier it was mentioned that the flesh blocks (gore block) are refined and may return to the game. Is it true or not? Will appear flesh blocks (gore block) after the zombies disappear?

[Roland]

And again. What about the flesh blocks (gore block)? Earlier it was mentioned that the flesh blocks (gore block) are refined and may return to the game. Is it true or not? Will appear flesh blocks (gore block) after the zombies disappear?

 

There are no gore blocks.

 

You kill zombie

Zombie falls to ground

Zombie disappears

 

That is all

[gamemeister]

1) Zombies can't be looted. This was changed for performance reasons and to solve myriad duping exploits. Really, it comes down to a time saver. If the zombie has something it drops a bag and if it doesn't then it simply disappears. The benefits of this are as follows:

+ No need to check bodies that mostly come up empty anyway. Any dropped bags are guaranteed to have loot.

+ No cleanup and better performance since everything disappears

+ No onscreen text tipping you off that they are really dead dead. This is a huge plus for me personally.

 

2) The backpack is only five slots smaller than you are used to (vanilla) in A16. You have 32 slots now and in A17 you will have 27 slots. If you spend all your points from the first tutorial quest which you can finish easily by 9am of the first day you can get your backpack slots up to 37 slots which is two more than you are used to in A16-- from DAY 1. It just depends on how you want to spend your points. It is entirely your choice. Pretty fair I'd say.

 

3) I clarified the Integrated Survival System in a separate thread. Madmole made some mistakes in his explanation of it. Personally, I think it is awesome. You know everything you need to know at a glance.

 

I'm glad you are reserving final judgement until you can play with it. I'm sure TFP will want to know feedback based on playing and remember that none of these changes can be considered final until the game is released so if you hate it after playing please do post that feedback.

Seeing your explanations has given me more hope that I'll actually like these things after all. Can you clarify on the zombie loot though? In the video none of the zombies dropped any bags, is that a bug perhaps, or did I just miss that happening? Also, I guess I really should've checked just how much smaller the backpack was, with only five slots smaller I can deal with that until putting points in to get more. I read your explanation of the Integrated Survival System and from what I read it actually does sound quite good, though again, I'll reserve judgement until playing. I have much more hope for A17 to be my favorite update (as each new update usually takes the place of the last for that title) seeing your explanations. No offense to MM but he really should've been more clear on some of the stuff honestly.

[Roland]

Seeing your explanations has given me more hope that I'll actually like these things after all. Can you clarify on the zombie loot though? In the video none of the zombies dropped any bags, is that a bug perhaps, or did I just miss that happening? Also, I guess I really should've checked just how much smaller the backpack was, with only five slots smaller I can deal with that until putting points in to get more. I read your explanation of the Integrated Survival System and from what I read it actually does sound quite good, though again, I'll reserve judgement until playing. I have much more hope for A17 to be my favorite update (as each new update usually takes the place of the last for that title) seeing your explanations. No offense to MM but he really should've been more clear on some of the stuff honestly.

 

Bag drops are just a probability number that could easily be changed. I'm sure they'll be listening to feedback during experimental. Currently they are extremely rare. But, the probability could easily be tweaked during experimental from one build to another. It's probably very easily moddable to where you could make it so that almost every zombie is dropping a bag if you wanted. But we'll have to wait until modders get their hands on it to see how easy it actually is.

[gamemeister]

Ah okay. Interesting...I hope they do make it a little less rare, I feel maybe they could've kept the default drop rates and just changed the system but I guess we'll see when it comes to that. Thanks for the clarification. Excited for A17 too bad it'll probably come out after I go back to school since that's next week, oh well can't win em all.

[Survager]

There are no gore blocks.

 

You kill zombie

Zombie falls to ground

Zombie disappears

 

That is all

 

Roland, if the corpses disappear, how long will we have time to pick up the arrows? )

[DaVegaNL]

Well, I guess with zombies no longer providing loot, one should start to focus building a base at bedrock level. Right, Roland?

[Blake_]

[7DTD] Are Prime and Kinyajuu a couple in real life?

 

A couple of nice devs I meant. Now that I got your attention , I will analyse a series of points that the newest MM video has brought into light.

 

1. ARROWS and everything about them in a17 rocks.

 

2.ZOMBIE LOOTING:I think it is indeed a perfect upgrade IF some balacing is made for the sake of bones(glue-paper) and brass. May I suggest that we are able to gut them like we gut animals but in its current zombie form? However they must last a bit more without dissapearing. That way after a horde night we get a lot of bags of loot but only a few amount of said resources which can be found killing zombies during the day and gutting them one by one.Bones and fat are the only real problem though, rotting flesh(also found in zombie animals) is one of the most useless resources in the game as it can only be used for making fertilizer which can be (bought and found )and once placed we can have that farming spot forever.

 

3.BRASS: MMMmm There's that. Zombies are a good resource of brass and even with traders it might not be enough. May I suggest a mining block called: metallic rubble, ruins, etc so we can mine it in small quantities in the wasteland biome?. Either way, with those future bandits bullets might be a little more abundant and I might be thinking out loud for nothing.

 

4ZOMBIE AI: I like.

 

5. Two pairs running shoes. Two baseball helmets,two white t-shirts, two trousers....nope.Reducing and avoiding loot item duplication might be best. So a cheerleader can give you onlly a pair of running shoes and a paper, not two pairs of running shoes.

 

Congrats to TFP. :smile-new:

[RestInPieces]

I'm sure they'll be listening to feedback during experimental.

 

I hope they will not.

[RestInPieces]

Well, I guess with zombies no longer providing loot, one should start to focus building a base at bedrock level. Right, Roland?

 

Because zombie loot should be the incentive for us to build on the surface... sigh...

[Brimstone]

1) Zombies can't be looted. This was changed for performance reasons and to solve myriad duping exploits. Really, it comes down to a time saver. If the zombie has something it drops a bag and if it doesn't then it simply disappears. The benefits of this are as follows:

+ No need to check bodies that mostly come up empty anyway. Any dropped bags are guaranteed to have loot.

+ No cleanup and better performance since everything disappears

+ No onscreen text tipping you off that they are really dead dead. This is a huge plus for me personally.

 

I think some people aren't understanding that gore blocks were just one of those ideas that sounded good on paper, but just couldn't be worked out in reality. Sure, it's a little disappointing, but I think arrow recovery alone more than makes up for it. I respect the Pimps for being willing to try things out and discard when they just don't work out. Personally, there are only two gameplay changes that I really, really would like to see restored, and they predate A17 by a long shot.

 

• Crawling/crouching through 1 meter openings. And yes, I think zombies should be able to also even if it means they get down, crawl, and stand back up when they can.
  
• 
  
• Disassembling bullets. I'd be happy if it was a perk you had to buy, even... but a point comes where you are overflowing on 9mm from loot. Brass is always so scarce..
  

 

 

just my $0.02

[Brian9824]

Personally I wish the starting bag inventory was reduced even more. You get so much storage in this game it's crazy.

 

The only real big question I have is can you harvest zombie bodies for bones/fat?

[merlinfire]

this is another reason why waiting a year between iterations is a bad idea (and it has been mentioned before), because when you are making changes, you have to wait a year for meaningful feedback, and if you have to back something out, you've wasted a lot of time. as a developer myself that's why i try to get feedback early on major changes, so i don't find myself 6 months or a year down the road and have to rip out the work i've done

 

working on a patch for a year then hoping for feedback after is setting yourself up for issues

[Roland]

Well, I guess with zombies no longer providing loot, one should start to focus building a base at bedrock level. Right, Roland?

 

Sure. And the good news is faatal is making it fun again to do so just in the nick of time. ;-)

[Roland]

this is another reason why waiting a year between iterations is a bad idea (and it has been mentioned before), because when you are making changes, you have to wait a year for meaningful feedback, and if you have to back something out, you've wasted a lot of time. as a developer myself that's why i try to get feedback early on major changes, so i don't find myself 6 months or a year down the road and have to rip out the work i've done

 

working on a patch for a year then hoping for feedback after is setting yourself up for issues

 

Ironically, it was the primary work that they did over the year that will make it possible for them to just change some values instead of needing to rip anything out if changes are warranted. The main coding changes have been to make it easier to change the game within the existing systems. This helps them and it helps the modders in exciting ways.