Lockpicking nerf

[FranticDan]

Me: "Hey awesome I unlocked Q6 armour by day 30"
TFP: "Great job!"

Me: "Hey look I unlocked Q6 machete by day 32"
TFP: " Nicely done!"

Me: "Damn, it's day 38 and only now unlocked the chemistry station, still a ways to go for the crucible"
TFP: "Wait, no, that's too fast. We need to slow this down by 75% and force people to use advanced engineering instead and heavily dilute their loot tables so it takes at least day 100 to unlock crucible!!!"

[theFlu]

Title is a little misleading; not exactly a Lockpicking nerf, just a nerf to the talent to remove the book drops, right? (I haven't even read patch notes, let alone installed..)

 

Makes sense, having several talents to increase the same book set is unique, so making the workbench skill set the only workbench book set seems reasonable. Might need some rebalancing ofc, assuming they don't really intend the steel unlock to be real late - they might; they seem to think mass producing steel is just OP in itself. Can't say much as I haven't played

[FranticDan]

4 hours ago, theFlu said:

Title is a little misleading; not exactly a Lockpicking nerf, just a nerf to the talent to remove the book drops, right? (I haven't even read patch notes, let alone installed..)

 

Makes sense, having several talents to increase the same book set is unique, so making the workbench skill set the only workbench book set seems reasonable. Might need some rebalancing ofc, assuming they don't really intend the steel unlock to be real late - they might; they seem to think mass producing steel is just OP in itself. Can't say much as I haven't played

The issue with advanced engineering is, it influences 3 other magazine series on top of forge ahead, and aside from gunslinger, it's the only perk that influences more than 1 magazine series. And lockpicking was useful for isolating forge ahead to obtain them at a reasonable rate. Now it'll take roughly 3-4 times longer to get forge magazines after 15

[8_Hussars]

I tend to agree.  However, I don't mind rushing the Workbench and then losing the FA bonus that much, there are guaranteed FA drops unlike other series.   The nerf obviously impacts CO-OP/Server play much more.

Having said that, it is well documented TFPs struggle with balance and there is still a long way to go, especially regarding the armor sets/bonuses.

Edited July 4 by 8_Hussars (see edit history)

[ElCabong]

I always put one skill in advanced engineering at level 5 and then later on I would put one in lock picking and daring adventurer as part of my standard build. So I think the boost I get from advanced engineering will go away but the other two are going to kick in and things will be the same I hope.

[Javabean867]

It makes sense that it only gets you to the ability to make lock picks, but I think there could be a check that says(if lockpick and advance eng, only give 1 bonus to loot pool) .

[8_Hussars]

5 minutes ago, ElCabong said:

I always put one skill in advanced engineering at level 5 and then later on I would put one in lock picking and daring adventurer as part of my standard build. So I think the boost I get from advanced engineering will go away but the other two are going to kick in and things will be the same I hope.

You should consider Lockpicking ahead of AE.  Lockpicking is a bonus for Forge Ahead mags and now goes away at 15 magazines.  AE is a bonus for Wiring, Traps and FA books so its bonus is watered down already.
 

[ElCabong]

7 minutes ago, 8_Hussars said:

You should consider Lockpicking ahead of AE.  Lockpicking is a bonus for Forge Ahead mags and now goes away at 15 magazines.  AE is a bonus for Wiring, Traps and FA books so its bonus is watered down already.
 

I wasn't paying attention to the forge ahead magazines. I was after the faster crafting time.

[Catt]

Is putting a point in lock picking and then, just like, banking the magazines till you get 100 of em (or whatever) an option? Just don't read em after 10 for work bench?

 

Rip chem station and whatever else if you don't tho. But might have more points to allocate by that time to ae when needed.

[Riamus]

5 minutes ago, Catt said:

Is putting a point in lock picking and then, just like, banking the magazines till you get 100 of em (or whatever) an option? Just don't read em after 10 for work bench?

 

Rip chem station and whatever else if you don't tho. But might have more points to allocate by that time to ae when needed.

Of course.  Honestly, this change hasn't had much impact on my own game, though I don't usually have points in lockpicking or advanced engineering until later in the game anyhow.  Forge Ahead is not too hard if you keep an eye out for cement mixers and forges.  Add those guaranteed drops to what you find everywhere else and it still goes up at a decent enough rate, though probably much slower than what people here want who are used to maxing it with the perks.

[theFlu]

6 hours ago, FranticDan said:

The issue with advanced engineering is, it influences 3 other magazine series

You're not wrong, but I don't think that issue should be fixed by just adding the workstation-effect to random skills; it could be "balanced" in any way TFP want it - it might even be exactly right in their minds. If they don't want the sets to 'compete' like that, they could even add their sum total drop count with the skill - you'd get honestly more of every type.

 

But I don't think it should be "balanced" by tacking the separate booksets into random other skills. I don't really see the commonality between lockpicks and chem stations, other than TFP wanted to limit the lockpick crafting with some means, and workstations-series was the "closest" existing fit... but that's roughly as close as explosives (there's timed charges for the ultimate lockpick and fine mechanics in grenades etc)

[elektrohund]

I don't think it was ever intended for players to pick certain skills in order to manipulate loot tables in their favour. Forge ahead is such an universally useful magazine for crafting with many other skills depending on it that having any perk boosting it at all seems a bit odd to me.

[BFT2020]

For those of us that enjoy playing the game with electricity and traps, advanced engineering is the perk to go into as it affects the three crafting trees we want to advance in.  It’s only an issue for players that don’t care about unlocking electricity and electric traps.  That is why everything you can craft in the workstations crafting skill is also obtainable as a purchase from the traders.

 

Combining the lock pick perk with advanced engineering was just one way to supercharge getting workstation crafting maxed out.  TBH, I thought it was silly to have two perks that affected one crafting skill.

 

For those looking to unlock items like crucibles, you can buy them from the traders and not worry about maxing out forged ahead - you see workstation and their tools available Day 1 - you just need to save your money and spend wisely.

[FramFramson]

35 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

For those of us that enjoy playing the game with electricity and traps, advanced engineering is the perk to go into as it affects the three crafting trees we want to advance in.  It’s only an issue for players that don’t care about unlocking electricity and electric traps.  That is why everything you can craft in the workstations crafting skill is also obtainable as a purchase from the traders.

 

Combining the lock pick perk with advanced engineering was just one way to supercharge getting workstation crafting maxed out.  TBH, I thought it was silly to have two perks that affected one crafting skill.

 

For those looking to unlock items like crucibles, you can buy them from the traders and not worry about maxing out forged ahead - you see workstation and their tools available Day 1 - you just need to save your money and spend wisely.

 

This isn't really feasible unless they upped the likelihood of traders carrying crucibles.

 

Just for one example, last game I had Jen had a crucible on day 1 which I obviously could not afford without heroic early efforts. That game went to 150 days and she never again had one.

[BFT2020]

On 7/4/2024 at 6:49 PM, FramFramson said:

 

This isn't really feasible unless they upped the likelihood of traders carrying crucibles.

 

Just for one example, last game I had Jen had a crucible on day 1 which I obviously could not afford without heroic early efforts. That game went to 150 days and she never again had one.

I am going to test this out on a test world when I return from vacation but are you saying no trader had crucibles after Day 1 in 150 days?

 

I could have sworn I seen them in trader inventories past day 10

[Javabean867]

19 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

I am going to test this out on a test world when I return from vacation but are you saying no trader had crucibles after Day 1 in 150 days?

 

I could have sworn I seen them in trader inventories past day 10

Rng, I've had a few crucible show up in the 1st few weeks.

[FramFramson]

Exactly. It's RNG.

 

Can you get crucibles sometimes from traders? Yes, of course.

 

Can you do so dependably? And reliably before you hit 100 in Workstations? Hell no. 

 

Edited July 6 by FramFramson (see edit history)

[Slingblade2040]

Considering that traders can sell the crafting stations the nerf isn't a big deal. Hell that can still sell some OP gear once you get to like trader stage 3 or 4.

 

Did it slow progression a bit? Yes. but is it as ridiculous as some folks say it is? no.

 

Honestly I don't get how we can craft impact drivers, 4x4, motorcycles and gyrocopters but making weapon parts is a no no. 

 

The more I play and each update the pimps push out it seems that balance for this game will never happen. Sure the traders got a bit of balance towards the rewards but if they can still sell OP weapons and gear then they still need more work.

[bdubyah]

On 7/4/2024 at 5:49 PM, FramFramson said:

 

This isn't really feasible unless they upped the likelihood of traders carrying crucibles.

 

Just for one example, last game I had Jen had a crucible on day 1 which I obviously could not afford without heroic early efforts. That game went to 150 days and she never again had one.

In 150 days you only ever checked the one trader? Crucibles are in the general loot that all traders have. Why not check others as well?

[BFT2020]

33 minutes ago, FramFramson said:

Can you do so dependably? And reliably before you hit 100 in Workstations? Hell no. 

 

 

Why does it need to be a guaranteed item in the trader's inventory?  I like the fact you are not guaranteed to find the crucible in the trader inventory once you decided you are going to buy it.

 

There are also other sources of forged steel that you can access prior to gaining a crucible - you can buy it directly from the traders, find it in loot, and scavenge it from items.

 

The thing is, crucibles are a rare tool item in the trader inventory and that trader group has 12 items in it.  You have a one out of 12 chance that it would be picked.  Each trader is guaranteed to have 2 - possibly 3 - choices from the trader group in their inventories.

 

The only thing I might nitpick about the traders and rare tools is the inclusion of two items in that group - T3 Steel sledgehammer and small engine.  I would drop those (since T3 sledge is also in the melee weapons group and small engine is in the vehicle group) as the other 10 items are only found in the rare tools group.

 

If you want to guarantee that you have a crucible by Day X in your game, go into CM and grab one there (chuck the money on the floor as if you purchased it).

[FramFramson]

36 minutes ago, bdubyah said:

In 150 days you only ever checked the one trader? Crucibles are in the general loot that all traders have. Why not check others as well?

 

I did! IIRC Bob had one well past day 100 or somewhere around there - the point wasn't that it was impossible, the point was it was far too late to base a planned playthrough around buying a crucible (much less the multiple crucibles you might need) over researching one and that has been my experience not just in one game, but several.

 

If you're okay with that lack of guarantee, that's fine! Everyone is free to play as they like!

 

All I'm saying is that if you're the type of player who sets out with a plan that involves specifically acquiring a crucible by, say, day 15, or day 30, or whatever, that plan probably shouldn't be based on acquiring said crucible through buying them. 

 

Personally, I tend to do as BlackWolf suggests, madly scavenging steel from the in-game sources like gas pumps, transformers, ATMs, vending machines, etc. and in desperate cases, buying steel (very rarely), which is usually enough until I unlock crucibles ~whenever~, but other people like to play to stricter schedules. 

[Adam the Waster]

the lock picking now is a bit much, it should be toned down a bit

[Javabean867]

I mean it isn't hard to get forged steel from other sources.  It's littering the streets practically.  

 

You just need to make sure you are wrenching inactive vending machines, all street lights, and those happy green robot dudes on the utility poles(once you see it you can never unsee it) leading up to the day you actually need steel.

 

1 hour ago, Slingblade2040 said:

Honestly I don't get how we can craft impact drivers, 4x4, motorcycles and gyrocopters but making weapon parts is a no no. 

 

We can't make engines and headlights either.  I think those are the equivalent to the weapon/tool/armor parts.