Intellect has a serious problem.

[OmegaFerret]

4 hours ago, Maharin said:

The weird thing for me when reading through this thread is that I have never focused on a single stat in any game I've played through.  I've always spread my points around and collected benefits as needed, depending on my circumstances in that play through.  Am I alone in this?

yes i do the spreading as well. I cant stand really to be one sided i gotta be able to do everything on my own.

I did try a fall out with maxed str and endurance but i eneded up spending points in other stats to make up. for what i lacked.

[POCKET951]

17 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

I have seen the same mechanic (specific classes are good for beginners, some classes are more difficult) in many games, some limit you to the beginner class for the first game, some just mention it in the class description. This is quite normal, just that it is communicated better elsewhere, something we can surely blame TFP for.

 

I have played all classes and I have never had a special problem with INT, i.e. that I was dying more when using INT. I would say the difference between INT and other classes for an experienced player is almost negligible, though I am not in a position to really measure that with certainty as I haven't played INT in single player in the last 2 alphas, only in co-op. A bit of knowledge how to play that class may be necessary, but that is as it should be for a replayable game that you should not know everything after playing for a few hours.

 

Me I am very very glad this class exists, just like AGI with stealth. These are the two classes where at least combat and maybe strategy as well is or can be very different than the other classes, whereas STR, FOR and PER to a lesser degree feel very samey when you have played them multiple times.

 

Note: We are at day 4 of our current co-op game, everyone still has a quality1 pipe rifle and a q1 or 2 melee weapon. And the melee weapon is by far the most important weapon in our arsenal, the damage output of pipe rifles alone is not enough to help you in oh-@%$# situations anyway. Nobody of us has more than 1 point in any ranged weapon, if at all, and with the quality of the pipe weapons it would be a waste of points (the only reason for the one point is magazine find chance really). [EDIT] Two of us already died because they were relying on their pipe rifles to save them by the way.

 

So I would guess it takes at least another week before the INT player might feel any handicap in his ranged arsenal because his pipe rifle is lacking in damage. But I would guess by that time he already might have a pusher turret, and for survivability I would say a well placed pusher turret is at least as good as the 10 or 15% better ranged damage someone else would have with his gun. Especially the poor PER player with his single-shot rifle 😉

 

 

 

 

 

in Alpha 21 I was always rushing daring adventurer and reached mid game by day 7 to 10 doing trader stuff exclusively. I always skipped or glossed over the stun baton because int weapon perks were power crept compared to everything else available to me at the time(pump shotguns, Ak's, tier 3 snipers)

now in version 1.0 because the progression is much slower, going into other trees for weapons feels like a weak investment because you still just have pipe weapon tiers of everything. I just put enough in str/perception skill/weapon perks to get more magazines for shotgun/sniper progression and I pour all my skill points into the baton perk/physician  skill since I already have 10 int to get lvl 4 daring adventurer.

I got lucky and found an early stun baton and this weapon with perks, easily fills that power gap between tier 0 and t1 weapons and gave me alot of needed punch because I found I was struggling with ferals in t2 infested pois with pipe weapons.

Imo the stun baton is actually a really strong melee weapon and totally viable/usable untill midgame or later.

in previous alpha I would never go so all in on int before because of how easily accessible and useable power from other trees was. now its the very pathway for me to do better in the early-midgame.  

Int is more then strong enough to hold its own even without a dedicated ranged weapon perk unless you are playing on some crazy difficulty settings.

Edited June 29 by POCKET951 (see edit history)

[pApA^LeGBa]

On 6/27/2024 at 12:14 PM, meganoth said:

 

Int is supposed to be the "hard" starting option, while strength is the novice option. That isn't explained anywhere in the game yet, but TFP has explained this when asked why STR weapons are so strong compared to other trees.

 

 

How could they not see that everyone and their grandmother will abuse this to no end? Go take a look on servers and youtube. The vast majority uses STR weapons. Nice job killing diversity instead of having a balanced system where it doesn´t matter wich attribute you wanna start out with.

 

I actually thought this is just a balance issue that will be fixed at some point. Seeing this is intended is kinda shocking tbh.

Edited June 29 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

 

How could they not see that everyone and their grandmother will abuse this to no end? Go take a look on servers and youtube. The vast majority uses STR weapons. Nice job killing diversity instead of having a balanced system where it doesn´t matter wich attribute you wanna start out with.

 

I actually thought this is just a balance issue that will be fixed at some point. Seeing this is intended is kinda shocking tbh.

 

I agree. STR is simply too strong, even when you posit it as the "novice" class. I always despair when someone wants to show that HIS class is weak by comparing it to strength. It isn't that his class is too weak, it is that STR is too good.

 

But well, TFP decides and it seems they are fine with this, a  topic.

 

 

[Adam the Waster]

23 hours ago, theFlu said:

None of that is neither limited to nor improved by INT, though. And the intelligent option is usually to get the biggest gun you can operate .. Don't get me wrong, Int is perfectly fine, but it really doesn't offer much early on.

Yeah but extra variety of weapons would always be great until I could have a weaker form of range weapons but they make up for other means like Elemental effects like fire or electricity maybe even acid to limbs

[Lyote]

19 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

I agree. STR is simply too strong, even when you posit it as the "novice" class. I always despair when someone wants to show that HIS class is weak by comparing it to strength. It isn't that his class is too weak, it is that STR is too good.

 

But well, TFP decides and it seems they are fine with this, a  topic.

 

 

I don't think anyone would argue about Strength being overtuned lol

My issue with Intellect as it currently stands is that it has no early game dedicated ranged weapon. You're stuck predominantly in melee with handicapped stats on the most handicapped guns the game has to offer lol
In general, any playthrough we do will have use dipping into the other attributes over time. But its not something you go all in with in the first week. 

The lack of a dedicated ranged perk has a compound effect when you take the Attribute levels into consideration. 
10 - 30% damage alone is something you can easily work around. If that was all you were missing out on. 
But  raw damage in addition to a faster reload stuck to more fire rate on top of extra headshot damage with a side of extra dismember chance ... 

It all compounds together lol.

I think we can all agree that Junk Turrets are REALLY good in the late game. But as i said earlier, You wont have a Junk Turret UNTIL its late game.

There's also the problem of the Turret perks being utterly useless to take until you can craft at least your first Sledge Turret. Every other attribute gets instant value from their gun line through access to Pipe Gun recipes we have by default. You can have your preferred Pipe Gun in under 30 minutes from spawn. Heck, Most times the POI i spawn next to has a Pipe Gun in it before i even head to the trader. Who now hands you a pipe gun bundle for talking to him anyways, lol.
Good luck finding 11 Robotics books and building a Workbench inside 30 minutes from spawn lol

There is absolutely no harm in adding a dedicated INT based ranged weapon. 
I suggested Crossbow for this because it kind of fits with the inventor nature of INTs theme. And also because why does Agility technically need 3 ranged weapons in the form of Pistols, Bows and Crossbows?

Nothing would change in the late game for INT to have its own gun. 
It would only raise up INTs early game to match all the other attributes in having their own dedicated guns. 

[meganoth]

5 hours ago, Lyote said:

I don't think anyone would argue about Strength being overtuned lol

My issue with Intellect as it currently stands is that it has no early game dedicated ranged weapon. You're stuck predominantly in melee with handicapped stats on the most handicapped guns the game has to offer lol
In general, any playthrough we do will have use dipping into the other attributes over time. But its not something you go all in with in the first week. 

The lack of a dedicated ranged perk has a compound effect when you take the Attribute levels into consideration. 
10 - 30% damage alone is something you can easily work around. If that was all you were missing out on. 
But  raw damage in addition to a faster reload stuck to more fire rate on top of extra headshot damage with a side of extra dismember chance ... 

It all compounds together lol.

I think we can all agree that Junk Turrets are REALLY good in the late game. But as i said earlier, You wont have a Junk Turret UNTIL its late game.

There's also the problem of the Turret perks being utterly useless to take until you can craft at least your first Sledge Turret. Every other attribute gets instant value from their gun line through access to Pipe Gun recipes we have by default. You can have your preferred Pipe Gun in under 30 minutes from spawn. Heck, Most times the POI i spawn next to has a Pipe Gun in it before i even head to the trader. Who now hands you a pipe gun bundle for talking to him anyways, lol.
Good luck finding 11 Robotics books and building a Workbench inside 30 minutes from spawn lol

There is absolutely no harm in adding a dedicated INT based ranged weapon. 
I suggested Crossbow for this because it kind of fits with the inventor nature of INTs theme. And also because why does Agility technically need 3 ranged weapons in the form of Pistols, Bows and Crossbows?

Nothing would change in the late game for INT to have its own gun. 
It would only raise up INTs early game to match all the other attributes in having their own dedicated guns. 

 

Damage wise the crossbow is the better bow, though some people (like me) just like the bow better for strange reasons like a real trajectory you have to adapt to. You can see it in the magazine list, that it isn't unlocked parallel with the bow, but after it. Giving it to INT would make INT a great starter class and with the turrets and all a great end-game class for combat as well, which is exactly how TFP not wants the INT class.

 

Remember, TFP wants INT as a class strong on utility and weaker on damage output, something different to the other classes (and yes, I value such difference greatly when I replay 7D2D the umpteenth time). There is no use in telling TFP what to do. If they were to want it they would find a way.

Instead you first would have to convince TFP that such a difference in classes is bad for the game. And except for the disadvantage that you have to probably tell something to novice players about INT being slighty harder to play I don't see anything that would make **me** change INT combat in any way.

 

The only case you might have is that INTs vast superiority in utility depends to a large part on the trader and since the trader is thankfully nerfed now that superiority might not be as much as it was in previous alphas where veterans often placed INT as superior even to STR because it made it so easy to speed up the progression.

 

 

 

Edited June 30 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Kosmic Kerman]

On 6/29/2024 at 2:44 AM, pApA^LeGBa said:

I actually thought this is just a balance issue that will be fixed at some point. Seeing this is intended is kinda shocking tbh.

 

Why? I think it's good for there to be a starting class that new players will gravitate to as it has the mining perks and is the class of the weapon you craft during the starting quest.  And in terms of people using the strongest class, if you nerf strength people who want the strongest weapons will just move to the next strongest class which is probably agility. No game is ever going to be perfectly balanced and meta chasers will always use the same equipment/stats/etc.

[Ramethzer0]

On 6/27/2024 at 2:25 AM, Lyote said:

Im not asking for Intellect to be made even stronger. 
I'm requesting that the tree get rebalanced so you have access to early, weaker versions of what the Intellect tree is dedicated to so as not to be unnecessarily be handicapped compared to other attributes in the early game. And a gun. Why cant the smart guy have a damn gun?! 

 

 

I play INT quite a bit, and I can tell you playing INT is not like playing other builds.  It's actually quite OP if you use it for what its meant to be used for.

That being said, you can add any other ranged weapon (unperked even) and it will be a serviceable solution to your problem.  Rifles and shotguns are a great addition to the utility that INT offers in terms of its crowd control factor.

 

In my experience, most people that try INT builds don't understand what that build provides right away.  If you aren't seeing the value of the versatility you find in INT builds, then that might be part of the problem.   It pairs well with just about everything.

Edited June 30 by Ramethzer0 (see edit history)

[Adam the Waster]

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Damage wise the crossbow is the better bow, though some people (like me) just like the bow better for strange reasons like a real trajectory you have to adapt to. You can see it in the magazine list, that it isn't unlocked parallel with the bow, but after it. Giving it to INT would make INT a great starter class and with the turrets and all a great end-game class for combat as well, which is exactly how TFP not wants the INT class.

 

Remember, TFP wants INT as a class strong on utility and weaker on damage output, something different to the other classes (and yes, I value such difference greatly when I replay 7D2D the umpteenth time). There is no use in telling TFP what to do. If they were to want it they would find a way.

Instead you first would have to convince TFP that such a difference in classes is bad for the game. And except for the disadvantage that you have to probably tell something to novice players about INT being slighty harder to play I don't see anything that would make **me** change INT combat in any way.

 

 

If it's support they want then maybe weapons like a taser or uses elemental effects or other special things. Personally if I was to add something it would be ether. 

 

Makeshift air guns, lower damage but cheap ammo and can be modded out to fire elemental effects 

 

Or maybe something like a taser. 

 

My main argument for it is if you want to do a full-on build a full intellect and you want the benefits of a ranged weapon perks, you got a junk turret and that's it. 

 

Now you can use other weapons without perking into them and I often do that gives me the freedom to do that. But you should have a choice. 

 

we also need a tier 3 melee weapon as well but everyone's argued this. Maybe the plasma baton could both do fire and electric damage. 

 

 

[Ramethzer0]

I've seen a properly upgraded and modded electric baton do incredible damage and crowd control.

Why do we need a next tier upgrade?

[Kosmic Kerman]

53 minutes ago, Ramethzer0 said:

It's actually quite OP if you use it for what its meant to be used for.

 

I'm pretty sure what he/she is looking for is the OP parts of Intellect and a ranged weapon option so that all of the OP stuff can be compounded (daring adventurer, better barter, etc.) But I agree other ranged weapons fill any voids that exist in intellect. And Intellect will be able to better afford those weapons than other attributes.

[TWORDY]

A completely balanced game is not possible. All the perks and weapons would have to be easily accessible to all players without pre-created classes etc. In theory, it is possible to boost fully all classes/builds, but it is indeed a time-consuming activity with 100% XP gains, and no XP sharing party.  

 

STRENGHT

Strength used to be incredibly OP due to STsaurus perk that has been practically implemented across all builds. But still, with mining lots of XP can be gained, not only ores and building materials. Shotgun seems like the best option for clearing POIs. OMG, even a heavy armor boost is here! Strength in my view is the first thing to grind with.

Intellect is the second build on my list. Vehicles and base traps might be built here. Trading and reward perks are incredibly helpful.

I usually go with Fortitude. Automatic weapons are the best choice in so called "emergency situations" in which fists are simply not enough, simply spray and pray kinda thing.

 

In my humble opinion, Perception and Agility require some sort of boost and rework.

First of all, I would remove any present armor perk in Strength and Agility. There is no Light Armor perk anywhere in any of the builds yet with v1.0. I think that armor types as they are themselves are good for shipping. 

 

PERCEPTION
The main problem with perception that I find is the slow fire rate of Sniper Rifle... compared to AKs, Shotguns, and even SMG and Desert Eagle. Please try firing at zeds while others dig out supplies... at least Warrior diff level and digging supplies mission LVL3 in the late game. Sniper rifle players are likely f*reake*d in the cramped room full of zombies. No crowd control here. I am not saying to boost sniper rifles but maybe some better sniper rifles need a strong and costful ammo-type. Sniper rifles indeed need some slight boost against spammy undead especially in the late game. PvP is kind of a various situation, I am talking about many zeds in front of the iron sight.

I would completely dump The Penetrator perk and bind the effects to respective ammo types. The game itself would be more fun for other build users then. 

 

The next ammo type would solve the damage model and effects for sniper rifles. Players in co-op/multiplayer would easily share the other ammo type also instead of plunging or stashing it for their golden AKs. Sniper Rifle ammo is an added value from the gameplay standpoint in my humble opinion except for solo games.

 

With Demolitions Expert perk, the overall cost of the creation of a molly and any type of explosive might be reduced also.

The Infiltrator Perk might also lower some damage taken from barbed wire and spikes or any traps involved. Also, players could receive less damage from explosives and mollies (especially self-thrown-detonated).

 

I would combine/bind Lucky Looter and Treasure Hunter under Scavenging Perks. 

In my view, Lockpicking should go to Perception build rather than Intellect build.

 

With all of those changes above I would view Perception as a very potent perk.

 

AGILITY
I think that Rule 1: Cardio would better fit Archery/Pistol/SMG users. Also stealth effect on top of that while running might be added. Lower footstep noise in-game while running with less damage taken to the legs having in mind blunt and pojectile damage. This change might fit Stealth Perks or Athletic Perks. I would remove Cardio 1 from Fortitude 100%. Stealthy crouch-sprint might be available exclusively with this build.

 

INTELLECT
I would love to have close-range weapon in Intellect build. For example flame thrower or some slightly futuristic plasma welding gun acting as a close-range weapon since we do have an electricuting stun baton. This would make sense since other builds have dedicated weapon(s)!

 

Physician Perk needs some more items for crafting. I have no idea but some better meds perhaps that might be only found in LVL 5 POIs. Some serums/potions/meds for crafting to boost the abilities dunno like even faster healing from specific types of injuries, stamina degradation improvement (like no stamina degradation for 180 seconds), and boosting overall wellness, higher tolerance for extreme weather conditions.

 

SUMMARY

I wouldn`t say intellect is lacking but the extra weapon for the build that is not on par with automatic weapons could be a +1 thing from the devs side of things.

 

 

[cl0udburst]

The Penetrator has some value on horde nights and in any POI where a room full of zombies jump out, and you funnel them back through a door - however, I think the part about penetrating blocks of a certain HP is nearly useless. I wonder if that particular perk could be rebalanced by buffing the armor reduction, adding a headshot dismemberment buff, or adding a stun/stagger when used against high-armor enemies.

[Lyote]

On 6/30/2024 at 11:57 PM, Ramethzer0 said:

 

 

I play INT quite a bit, and I can tell you playing INT is not like playing other builds.  It's actually quite OP if you use it for what its meant to be used for.

That being said, you can add any other ranged weapon (unperked even) and it will be a serviceable solution to your problem.  Rifles and shotguns are a great addition to the utility that INT offers in terms of its crowd control factor.

 

In my experience, most people that try INT builds don't understand what that build provides right away.  If you aren't seeing the value of the versatility you find in INT builds, then that might be part of the problem.   It pairs well with just about everything.

The Pipe Baton has crowd control?!

I have explained multiple times that that when INT has a fully loaded Stun Baton and Turrets, it is quite powerful. 

The problem, as i have also stated multiple times, is that all of those toys are LATE GAME additions to INT gameplay. 

What i have been asking for are solutions to the EARLY GAME.
Early, As in that long period where all you have is a Pipe Baton.
Unperked guns, especially Pipe Guns are terrible. They're only tolerable because dedicated gun perks give reload speed to offset the awful base reload time and Attribute levels give a huge bonus to their headshot damage (which you should always be doing) but also the dismember chance. Something INT doesn't get.

The 'solution' posited here multiple times is "just spec into another tree for their gun!"
Which implies that its not OP at all to have a gun while playing INT, Just as long as you pay a Skill Point tax to get it, right? 
Just remove the tax and put a dedicated gun into the INT tree. While i think Crossbow fits as a quick and dirty solution, Giving a custom weapon that fits the identity of INT would be better. 
Given that taking Advanced Engineering also unlocks EXP gains from electrical trap kills and Robotics is worthless to take until you get at least your first turret (Requiring 2 different books since it requires a workbench to craft one), you could have that weapon be disposable thrown 'traps' that take the place of a gun for INT and enhanced via Robotics. Primitive springloaded traps (Pipe era) giving way to sophisticated electrical traps in the later tiers. 

There is a lot that could be done to make INT a proper gadget/invention based spec for combat that gets started on that flavour on day 1, like literally all of the other attributes.
INT will always be my favourite way to play in the mid and lategame, But i will NEVER enjoy that early game experience as ut currently exists. Which is why I'm here asking Fun Pimps to give it some TLC.

[Bhaaltazar]

You could make the same argument for lack of ranged weapons for Strength build, early game shotgun is useless for long range, but that is the point. If you want range use either bows or some automatic rifles. Dunno when I play intellect I usually go for melee and just use turret as a shotgun, otherwise I just use sledge turret to knock them off at some bottleneck.
Each class needs to be played differently, but I usually progress the fastest in intellect with some points in perception as well for few points in lucky looter. I get majority of my equipment from looting which surpasses my current crafting skills.

[meganoth]

8 hours ago, Lyote said:

The 'solution' posited here multiple times is "just spec into another tree for their gun!"
Which implies that its not OP at all to have a gun while playing INT, Just as long as you pay a Skill Point tax to get it, right? 

 

Having to use a gun of a different spec may be a disadvantage for your combat abilites. Which is exactly what I am saying, INT is not the strongest combat class, intentionally. If you want a combat heavy class take something else. If you take INT either pay that tax (which will help you in mid/end-game as well, it isn't really wasted if you continue to use that gun) or don't, the difference is there, but there are lots of ways to decrease the risk. Play slower and use spike traps for safety, quest and loot tier 1 POIs, in other words, act like the squishy class you are.

 

In my group game the INT player could build his first turret on day 5, on the same day I increased AGI to 3 and increased guns from 1 to 2. So if you as the INT player had invested one point into whatever gun you liked as well, until that day 5 you would just miss a few percent of headshot kill percentage you can't rely on for safety and probably have a worse gun while I could craft a quality 4 pipe gun. If you can't handle that measly difference, just avoid INT.

 

If you want to reply that you are single player and the example doesn't fit, well, in my SP game I invested in a lot more other perks, for example one point into miner69er, farming and wrenching. I didn't even have the points to invest much into my attribute at all and my gun was only a tier 1 pistol because I got lucky with a toilet, which could happen to anyone, including the INT player. Without that my gun would have been less than quality 4 at day 5.

 

 

8 hours ago, Lyote said:

Just remove the tax

 

(I don't have any say in this, but for arguments sake:) No, that tax is there because the INT player is stronger on utility and with that ultimately balanced. Don't want to play a character strong on utility? Then go for something else. 

 

8 hours ago, Lyote said:

Given that taking Advanced Engineering also unlocks EXP gains from electrical trap kills and Robotics is worthless to take until you get at least your first turret (Requiring 2 different books since it requires a workbench to craft one), you could have that weapon be disposable thrown 'traps' that take the place of a gun for INT and enhanced via Robotics. Primitive springloaded traps (Pipe era) giving way to sophisticated electrical traps in the later tiers. 

 

AFAIK the workbench can be crafted from day 1.

 

8 hours ago, Lyote said:

NT will always be my favourite way to play in the mid and lategame, But i will NEVER enjoy that early game experience as ut currently exists. Which is why I'm here asking Fun Pimps to give it some TLC.

 

We will see whether TFP reacts. My guess is they are perfectly fine with it as it is, like many players here are who see it just as a challenge. In my view, if they really add a gun to INT they would have to massively nerf all the turrets and the stun baton to not make INT into an overpowered class, something that might sour your happines with late-game INT as well. Even now end-game INT is rather too strong on combat for a supposedly utility class, as you say yourself.

 

One other suggestion for you: The perk point redistribution potion was largely reduced in price and often can be found in loot as well. If you don't like early-game INT, simply spec into a different attribute and respec when the time is right.

 

Edited July 5 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Javabean867]

Why do people want all the stats to play the same?  INT is great, the pipe baton, the junk turrets, the healing and bartering bonuses.  Its a fun class to play by yourself, even better when you are supporting your friends.

But to each their own.

[TWORDY]

On 7/3/2024 at 4:24 AM, cl0udburst said:

The Penetrator has some value on horde nights and in any POI where a room full of zombies jump out, and you funnel them back through a door - however, I think the part about penetrating blocks of a certain HP is nearly useless. I wonder if that particular perk could be rebalanced by buffing the armor reduction, adding a headshot dismemberment buff, or adding a stun/stagger when used against high-armor enemies.

 

+Penetration of blocks is nearly useless - yeah I completely agree. But looks cool though.

+Stun/Stagger when used against high-armor enemies or radiated ones would be highly welcome.

 

Overall, I think it should be communicated clearly to the playerbase that Intelligence is not a "heavy tank class" but rather a "combat supporting role:" at best. Players should know day 1 for a fact that Intelligence stands on heavy use of utilities that come with a class. But, still, I would welcome some weapon that in early and mid-game is weaker than a shotgun and any kind of automatic weapon. Later a dedicated weapon in Intelligence might become on par with something in very late game.

[Adam the Waster]

On 6/30/2024 at 10:23 AM, Ramethzer0 said:

I've seen a properly upgraded and modded electric baton do incredible damage and crowd control.

Why do we need a next tier upgrade?

To even it out.. and slow the progression 

On 7/5/2024 at 2:29 PM, Javabean867 said:

Why do people want all the stats to play the same?  INT is great, the pipe baton, the junk turrets, the healing and bartering bonuses.  Its a fun class to play by yourself, even better when you are supporting your friends.

But to each their own.

I think it's fine too! Heck once I get my crew I'll probably be intellect 

 

My main issue is if you fully want to max that build. You got no ranged weapons 

 

And no tier 3 baton. Aside from that. That's it

 

[Lyote]

On 7/5/2024 at 11:12 PM, meganoth said:

 

Having to use a gun of a different spec may be a disadvantage for your combat abilites. Which is exactly what I am saying, INT is not the strongest combat class, intentionally. If you want a combat heavy class take something else. If you take INT either pay that tax (which will help you in mid/end-game as well, it isn't really wasted if you continue to use that gun) or don't, the difference is there, but there are lots of ways to decrease the risk. Play slower and use spike traps for safety, quest and loot tier 1 POIs, in other words, act like the squishy class you are.

 

In my group game the INT player could build his first turret on day 5, on the same day I increased AGI to 3 and increased guns from 1 to 2. So if you as the INT player had invested one point into whatever gun you liked as well, until that day 5 you would just miss a few percent of headshot kill percentage you can't rely on for safety and probably have a worse gun while I could craft a quality 4 pipe gun. If you can't handle that measly difference, just avoid INT.

 

If you want to reply that you are single player and the example doesn't fit, well, in my SP game I invested in a lot more other perks, for example one point into miner69er, farming and wrenching. I didn't even have the points to invest much into my attribute at all and my gun was only a tier 1 pistol because I got lucky with a toilet, which could happen to anyone, including the INT player. Without that my gun would have been less than quality 4 at day 5.

 

 

 

(I don't have any say in this, but for arguments sake:) No, that tax is there because the INT player is stronger on utility and with that ultimately balanced. Don't want to play a character strong on utility? Then go for something else. 

 

 

AFAIK the workbench can be crafted from day 1.

 

 

We will see whether TFP reacts. My guess is they are perfectly fine with it as it is, like many players here are who see it just as a challenge. In my view, if they really add a gun to INT they would have to massively nerf all the turrets and the stun baton to not make INT into an overpowered class, something that might sour your happines with late-game INT as well. Even now end-game INT is rather too strong on combat for a supposedly utility class, as you say yourself.

 

One other suggestion for you: The perk point redistribution potion was largely reduced in price and often can be found in loot as well. If you don't like early-game INT, simply spec into a different attribute and respec when the time is right.

 

Well at least you agree it's a tax, lol. 
Adding primitive versions of what INT will do later wont change the endgame balance at all. 
INT pre Stun Baton and Junk Turret is an entirely different experience. Its this period that needs some TLC. 
I called out needing the Workbench along with your Tech books to make the Sledge because everyone else gets to make a gun in their pocket, so a primitive Sledge turret also made in ones pocket using Wood, fiber, springs and stone but can only punch directly forward with a terrible RoF would at least allow INT to utilise the Robotics perk immediately, as others get to do with their respective gun perks. 

INT doesn't have a themed ranged experience, unless you count putting down a turret and twiddling your thumbs as an experience, lol
While i am most annoyed at having to pay a tax to get a decent gun, part of my request is motivated by that lack of theme. Any gun you pick is just going have you playing like a gimped version of the associated tree while using it. 

Why not provide INT with a unique ranged option?
Electrical traps are heavily under utilized in general gameplay as theyre all base bound items and typically not a feature in most bases due to the resource sink of maintaining them.

So why not utilize the trap exp on Advanced Engineering, tie a trap effectiveness bonus to Robotics and give INT a trap launcher for its ranged option. 
Firing small deployable, short lived traps at range. Much like Pipe Guns, it'd have a bad reload and RoF, and can even have it only capable of launching primitive traps, necessitating upgrading it to a proper T1 version later to use more advanced traps. 
Since 'utility' is the buzzword for denying a dedicated gun to INT, Keep the traps utility flavored mostly, With damage being a secondary effect on the triggered traps. 
You could have these be anything really. 
Why not have some 'ammo' options for it be things like a deployable beartrap that locks a zombie in place and applies a bleed for a short duration. (Bonus for teamplay if allies couldnt trigger such traps)
Perhaps launching a speaker to continously attract zombies to investigate an area to setup a killbox. 
Basically, small and non recoverable versions of what we typically have as base defense traps. No more difficult to craft than bullets for standard guns with primitive Iron, wood and stone versions to use in the Pipe Gun era. 
Could really get as creative as you want without having them be outright zombie killers. 

You can do a whole lot with the invention/robotics theme that INT has without applying raw power to it. 

Edited July 7 by Lyote (see edit history)

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, Lyote said:

Well at least you agree it's a tax, lol. 
Adding primitive versions of what INT will do later wont change the endgame balance at all. 
INT pre Stun Baton and Junk Turret is an entirely different experience. Its this period that needs some TLC. 
I called out needing the Workbench along with your Tech books to make the Sledge because everyone else gets to make a gun in their pocket, so a primitive Sledge turret also made in ones pocket using Wood, fiber, springs and stone but can only punch directly forward with a terrible RoF would at least allow INT to utilise the Robotics perk immediately, as others get to do with their respective gun perks. 

 

A primitive pusher turret would be enough for you? I could live with that, even though it would remove some uniqeness. That seems to me a different category than a crossbow for example and calling it a "ranged" option can be argumented but is still a stretch.

 

3 hours ago, Lyote said:

So why not utilize the trap exp on Advanced Engineering, tie a trap effectiveness bonus to Robotics and give INT a trap launcher for its ranged option. 
Firing small deployable, short lived traps at range. Much like Pipe Guns, it'd have a bad reload and RoF, and can even have it only capable of launching primitive traps, necessitating upgrading it to a proper T1 version later to use more advanced traps. 
Since 'utility' is the buzzword for denying a dedicated gun to INT, Keep the traps utility flavored mostly, With damage being a secondary effect on the triggered traps. 
You could have these be anything really. 
Why not have some 'ammo' options for it be things like a deployable beartrap that locks a zombie in place and applies a bleed for a short duration. (Bonus for teamplay if allies couldnt trigger such traps)
Perhaps launching a speaker to continously attract zombies to investigate an area to setup a killbox. 
Basically, small and non recoverable versions of what we typically have as base defense traps. No more difficult to craft than bullets for standard guns with primitive Iron, wood and stone versions to use in the Pipe Gun era. 
Could really get as creative as you want without having them be outright zombie killers. 

You can do a whole lot with the invention/robotics theme that INT has without applying raw power to it. 

 

Sure. You won't get any counter argument from me if you want to make INT even more different or distinct. And you got nice ideas there. I would change the trap thrower to a mine thrower though, and this could be a development task nearly as big as the drone because of new mechanics and I can imagine lots of corner cases that have to be found and debugged. So I don't think they'll do that at the moment.

 

 

 

Edited July 7 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Lyote]

48 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

A primitive pusher turret would be enough for you? I could live with that, even though it would remove some uniqeness. That seems to me a different category than a crossbow for example and calling it a "ranged" option can be argumented but is still a stretch.

 

 

Sure. You won't get any counter argument from me if you want to make INT even more different or distinct. And you got nice ideas there. I would change the trap thrower to a mine thrower though, and this could be a development task nearly as big as the drone because of new mechanics and I can imagine lots of corner cases that have to be found and debugged. So I don't think they'll do that at the moment.

 

 

 

Primitive Sledge would significantly help to make up for the lack of punch in its unperked gunplay. Primitive Junk Turret in the same vein could be an extra, But i doubt that would fly, bnased on the responses thus far.
First week, are you pulling your pipe gun and unloading on Arlenes? Hell no, You're saving it for that zomdoggo and surprise feral. 

Sledge would let you dance around the turret to give you the breathing room as opposed to the *KILL IT QUICK!* option the other attributes typically use given their stronger gunplay at that stage. 
Fits in with the constant 'but utility!' strikes against having a dedicated gun. Less damage, more crowd control. 

If its not already apparent, I'm quite willing to adapt my suggestions with the responses thus far, this is a discussion afterall. If the result is a better, more flavorful Intellect experience for everyone, not just myself, i'm happy. 

I like Crossbow for INT because it doesn't require much in the way of physical aptitude to utilize one, as opposed to a bow (Going off the flavor descriptions of the INT levels implying the character is physically weak as opposed to say, Strength) and given the construction of the crossbow, an intelligent individual could easily devise a cradle capable of launching objects as well as bolts through tinkering. 
Though i did move away from  crossbows due to progression of the Bow line, with the Compound Bow not being as equal to the Compound Crossbow (May have misremembered its stats from a mod i played somewhere) onto a more dedicated trap launcher weapon. 
Give us the mad scientist build XD 

And of course, I wouldn't be demanding TFP drop everything to rush implementations ... But talking about it and putting ideas out there could lead us to eventually having a better, more flavorful Intellect gameplay without taking away from the gameplay people already like with it. 
If no one says anything, nothing will change. 

[Javabean867]

21 hours ago, Adam the Waster said:

 

My main issue is if you fully want to max that build. You got no ranged weapons 

 

And no tier 3 baton. Aside from that. That's it

 

I hear you.  Although 2 junk turrets spitting lead down range is a site to see lol.  I can't wait to do a int run honestly.  

 

In a21 I barely felt like I was missing a rnaged weapon, but that's probably because I would toss points into other stats to round out my character. 

[BFT2020]

I am doing an Int survivor currently, only at Day 11 but I got my minibike and close to unlocking the first tier of electric traps.