Learn by doing/reading/leveling can be merged.

[meganoth]

5 hours ago, Khyron said:

I thought about this and thought that it could be combined into "Learn by Experience".

 

As you fight with a club, you gain club XP. If you craft clubs, for yourself or others, you gain club XP. If you perk into clubs you gain club XP faster. And if you read a magazine, it grants a large amount of club XP. No matter what you're doing you're progressing along the path of the club;  Eventually you learn to make sturdier, more advanced clubs.

 

Driving grants a small but steady trickle of vehicle XP. Being struck while wearing armor grants armor crafting XP (As does crafting new armor). Cooking food, boiling water, etc. grants cooking XP. Making or using medicines grants medicine XP. Upgrading blocks would grant repair tool XP. Or you can just go out looting for magazines which give you the insight.

 

A combination of learn by doing, learn by reading, and 'learn by crafting' with perks boosting your growth rate. The best of all worlds?

 

Obviously it'd require a lot of testing to properly balance, but the fact that it would allow everyone to play their own way and still progress seems like it'd satisfy every playstyle for all players.

 

This seems to me to be A16 again, with a few small changes. No thank you. I like me my perks.

 

[Roland]

3 hours ago, Kalen said:

 

100% agree... well thought out plan.

 

I can't keep track of the two or three threads our conversation about this is spread but....its mea culpa time.

 

I was playing tonight and noticed when I went to use one of the magazines that it specificially says "read to increase crafting skill". So...yeah.

 

I still prefer to think of it as finding recipes but I'm forced to admit that it is just my own imagination and not actually the way it is. 

 

I concede the point.

 

I should tag in @Vaeliorin on this too since I annoyed the snot out of them and they should get a chance to say "Aha!!!"

Edited October 8, 2023 by Roland (see edit history)

[Vaeliorin]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

 

I can't keep track of the two or three threads our conversation about this is spread but....its mea culpa time.

 

I was playing tonight and noticed when I went to use one of the magazines that it specificially says "read to increase crafting skill". So...yeah.

 

I still prefer to think of it as finding recipes but I'm forced to admit that it is just my own imagination and not actually the way it is. 

 

I concede the point.

 

I should tag in @Vaeliorin on this too since I annoyed the snot out of them and they should get a chance to say "Aha!!!"

Aha?

[Roland]

18 minutes ago, Vaeliorin said:

Aha?

 

As in, "Aha! You DID move the goalposts!!" 

 

[w00kien00kie]

Complaining about what the TFP do is totally pointless and just gets you no where. You won't get the game you want ever.

 

Mods, that is the answer. There are tons of mods out there now that you can pick up and choose from to build your own game and play the way you want. I havent played vanilla for about 5 alphas now, I just mod the game the way I want it and enjoy that.

[pApA^LeGBa]

10 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

This seems to me to be A16 again, with a few small changes. No thank you. I like me my perks.

 

 

You can easily have both. LBD with perks and level restrictions. Try and play a bit of Darkness Falls. It´s a really good progression. Unless you like min/max a lot,  that doesn´t happen due to level caps.

 

Also magazines plus fergettin elixir are a way to get what you want really fast. It´s not an argument that people only want fast progression. The current system allows that aswell as the old one. Just in an even more weird way of doing it.

 

So no, the reasons a lot of people don´t like magazines is not that they can´t progress fast anymore. And if TFP wanted to prevent too fast progression they shouldn´t have made the fergetting elixir that cheap and shouldn´t have put learning elixir in every vending machine.

Edited October 8, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[meganoth]

39 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

 

You can easily have both. LBD with perks and level restrictions. Try and play a bit of Darkness Falls. It´s a really good progression. Unless you like min/max a lot,  that doesn´t happen due to level caps.

 

Also magazines plus fergettin elixir are a way to get what you want really fast. It´s not an argument that people only want fast progression. The current system allows that aswell as the old one. Just in an even more weird way of doing it.

 

So no, the reasons a lot of people don´t like magazines is not that they can´t progress fast anymore. And if TFP wanted to prevent too fast progression they shouldn´t have made the fergetting elixir that cheap and shouldn´t have put learning elixir in every vending machine.

 

My reason for not wanting LBD is purely personal. I am not talking about "a lot of people".

 

I play vanilla and the usual conversion mods usually once every alpha with my friends (though we haven't played DF in A21 yet, did not see what he did with the magazine system). And DF especially is well balanced, no question about it. But it has the same problem I have with all LBD variants. If I don't use a weapon extensively I do not get good at it. If I use bow and melee most of the time my pistol skill will be lacking. Since DF is well balanced this also means really lacking.

 

I don't have a direct problem with that, I can play DF and have fun. Still, without LBD, I have full control, I can build my character how I want.

 

So, everyone who wants LBD has DF. Everyone else has vanilla. I don't think they can be merged to be both because they are at cross-purposes. 

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

I don´t see the need to merge both systems. It would be absolutly fine for me to get rid of magazines and only have the DF method. Also In DF you do find quite the books to up your skills. Switching weapons isn´t really a problem. And he kept his old system. No magazines.

 

And lacking? It´s the way more realistic approach. In vanilla i can become a pistol expert in one minute by clicking a few times on a perk in a menu. Meh. But as you seeem to like min/max that´s the way to go i guess.

 

I forgot to tag @Roland in my post, the 2 last paragraphs weren´t directed at you.

Edited October 8, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[meganoth]

48 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

I don´t see the need to merge both systems. It would be absolutly fine for me to get rid of magazines and only have the DF method. Also In DF you do find quite the books to up your skills. Switching weapons isn´t really a problem. And he kept his old system. No magazines.

 

And lacking? It´s the way more realistic approach. In vanilla i can become a pistol expert in one minute by clicking a few times on a perk in a menu. Meh. But as you seeem to like min/max that´s the way to go i guess.

 

I don't care about realism. Simple as that. I like that I have control over my character development. And clicking a few times on a perk first needs the perk points, so it isn't really different than an LBD system.

 

This isn't about min/max, this is about providing the right incentives. If you want to specialize then the incentives in an LBD system are right on target, if not then not.

 

Exactly, no need to merge both systems. 

 

48 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

I forgot to tag @Roland in my post, the 2 last paragraphs weren´t directed at you.

 

 

[Kalen]

10 hours ago, Roland said:

I concede the point.

 

Eh, I still standby what I said... what the developers intent was isn't as important as the players perception.  That's still true.   You saw it as a recipe, so that is still a valid way to look at it.

[Adam the Waster]

After playing console for a bit I can say this! 

 

I don't miss learning by doing. Some stuff was cool like melee, mining, running, etc but most of the others were ether so convoluted or pointless. Like who's going to upgrade tailoring? 

 

 

The only thing I miss is wellness but it was flawed too, cuz you only ate one or a few things the current system is still kinda flawed in terms of food, maybe something stuff like cornbread could give buffs like extra health, 

[p0dr0x]

52 minutes ago, Adam the Waster said:

After playing console for a bit I can say this! 

 

I don't miss learning by doing. Some stuff was cool like melee, mining, running, etc but most of the others were ether so convoluted or pointless. Like who's going to upgrade tailoring? 

 

 

The only thing I miss is wellness but it was flawed too, cuz you only ate one or a few things the current system is still kinda flawed in terms of food, maybe something stuff like cornbread could give buffs like extra health, 

 

maybe if some crafted armors are good to use but i rly dont know

[Vaeliorin]

10 hours ago, Roland said:

 

As in, "Aha! You DID move the goalposts!!" 

 

Yeah, I know, I was trying to make a funny 😛

[Adam the Waster]

1 hour ago, p0dr0x said:

 

maybe if some crafted armors are good to use but i rly dont know

But most light armor isn't good 

[Khyron]

18 minutes ago, Adam the Waster said:

But most light armor isn't good 

Padded armor is absolutely fantastic because it gives you some resist early game when you need it the most and because it gives you zero penalties to stamina or movement or noise. Leather armor in my opinion is awful because while it does Grant small amount of armor more than padded, it also lowers your stamina regen it makes more noise and it reduces your speed. I don't feel like it grants enough additional armor for that trade-off to be worth it. Typically if I'm going light armor I stick with padded and boost it with whatever banded armor plating I can find until I can get a good set of military gear. With heavy armor it's all worthwhile because you're making that trade off of armor for mobility and Noise right from the get-go and the upgrade amounts are significant enough that you always want to have the strongest available

 

Personally I really hope that the new armors and outfits and everything else being added in the next update will be a lot more interesting and give me reasons to want to do anything other than padded armor 80% of the time

Edited October 8, 2023 by Khyron (see edit history)

[Adam the Waster]

9 minutes ago, Khyron said:

Padded armor is absolutely fantastic because it gives you some resist early game when you need it the most and because it gives you zero penalties to stamina or movement or noise. Leather armor in my opinion is awful because while it does Grant small amount of armor more than padded, it also lowers your stamina regen it makes more noise and it reduces your speed. I don't feel like it grants enough additional armor for that trade-off to be worth it. Typically if I'm going light armor I stick with padded and boost it with whatever banded armor plating I can find until I can get a good set of military gear. With heavy armor it's all worthwhile because you're making that trade off of armor for mobility and Noise right from the get-go and the upgrade amounts are significant enough that you always want to have the strongest available

 

Personally I really hope that the new armors and outfits and everything else being added in the next update will be a lot more interesting and give me reasons to want to do anything other than padded armor 80% of the time

I usually mix scrap with cloth so I had the best of both worlds at most a scrap helmet but I also just hate spam crafting.  It's not fun

 

But tho leather is my second favorite looking armor.  It sucks in terms of protection

Edited October 8, 2023 by Adam the Waster (see edit history)

[Ramethzer0]

*sigh*

 

My skin crawls whenever I read variations of things that resemble "I know my idea would make everyone happy," when in fact even the most minute of changes to common elements have literally caused the projectile vomiting of hundreds of saltposts and even youtube videos every time one of those changes occurs.

 

Edited October 8, 2023 by Ramethzer0 (see edit history)

[pApA^LeGBa]

Getting good at something as fast as possible is the whole purpose of min/maxing. And what could be faster than clicking on a perk 5 times? The whole perk system, considering the existence of learning/fergettin elixir, basically is min/maxing. You can totally switch around your character in a matter of minutes. You can go full strenght to go mining and then switch back to full specc into another attribute for hordenight. So yeah, if you prefer that you prefer a system that basically is the essence of min/maxing. If you abuse those possibilities or not is a different story though.  @meganoth

 

The perk/magazine system is good for people who want to min/max and/or want the easy way of "learning" something. The LBD with perks and level restrictions is good for people who want a steady progression where decisions have consequences that can´t be undone easily and getting skilled does resemble a learning experience (The fact that crafting and such is still a point system is to avoid abuse like we had in earlier alphas, like sitting in the forge watching arrowheads beeing made, no system is perfect). LBD is definitive more immersive aswell.

 

 

Edited October 8, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[meganoth]

4 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Getting good at something as fast as possible is the whole purpose of min/maxing. And what could be faster than clicking on a perk 5 times?

 

Go on, start a new game and klick on the pistol perk 5 times. See what it gets you

 

I am not here to tell you that the LBD system is bad. I am just telling you that I don't like it. And granted, there is an elixier in vanilla that is, especially at its new price, as OP as the trader and nearly as OP as creative menue. So what? The elixier is not an integral feature of the perk system. Just like getting more resistant by hopping on cacti is not an integral feature of LBD.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

6 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Go on, start a new game and klick on the pistol perk 5 times. See what it gets you

 

I am not here to tell you that the LBD system is bad. I am just telling you that I don't like it. And granted, there is an elixier in vanilla that is, especially at its new price, as OP as the trader and nearly as OP as creative menue. So what? The elixier is not an integral feature of the perk system. Just like getting more resistant by hopping on cacti is not an integral feature of LBD.

 

 

Well this game continues after starting a new game obviously. Weird that i have to point that out tbh...

 

Also, hopping on cacti? You really wanna compare that to fergetting/learning elixir? Do you have any idea how many cacti you needed to hop on to get a significant raise in your skill? Besides that armor shouldn´t be an action skill (and isn´t in DF). That was a thing in TFP´s LBD wich was a very faulty system. That´s like taking a chromebook as reference for gaming PC`s.

 

But this isn´t about personal taste here but about what is good for the game. A game focusing heavily on MP (technically it doesn´t even have SP, just an MP mode with one player) should not be based on a system that highly rewards min/maxing.

Edited October 9, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Also, hopping on cacti? You really wanna compare that to fergetting/learning elixir? Do you have any idea how many cacti you needed to hop on to get a significant raise in your skill? Besides that armor shouldn´t be an action skill (and isn´t in DF). That was a thing in TFP´s LBD wich was a very faulty system. That´s like taking a chromebook as reference for gaming PC`s.

 

It was simply an example of something for which LBD can't be blamed in principle just like a cheap forgettin elixier can't be blamed on perks. Perks in principle are not just for min/maxers. And since I never used the elixier just like I never use cm for anything except bug fixing.

 

1 hour ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

But this isn´t about personal taste here but about what is good for the game. A game focusing heavily on MP (technically it doesn´t even have SP, just an MP mode with one player) should not be based on a system that highly rewards min/maxing.

 

I play MP all the time and we have no problems except with the trader and none of my co-players have ever used fergettin to min-max, so no problem on that part. But all XP-getting activities are generally a source of imbalance (not exactly min/max), that was the case in A15/A16 as it is now in A21.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

You are again only judging from your situation. Ofc no one abuses the system on a private server. But there is a lot of public servers and given the balance for it, a surprisingly high amount of PvP going on.

 

If TFP really wants to support PvP after launch, like they claimed several times, they shouldn´t rely on a system favoring min/maxing. That would become dull as everyone would do pretty much the same.

Edited October 9, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[meganoth]

48 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

You are again only judging from your situation. Ofc no one abuses the system on a private server. But there is a lot of public servers and given the balance for it, a surprisingly high amount of PvP going on.

 

If TFP really wants to support PvP after launch, like they claimed several times, they shouldn´t rely on a system favoring min/maxing. That would become dull as everyone would do pretty much the same.

 

I am not arguing about vanilla being min/maxable, I am contesting that "min/maxing" is an intrinsic quality of a perk system. And it isn't, but it has always been a part of vanilla as long as I have been playing it, no matter whether LBD or perk based.

 

A15/A16 could be minmaxed as well, and if they had stayed with LBD, surely their version still would have mechanics that could be min/maxed. It just doesn't seem to be their priority for vanilla.

 

Now if you are not talking about the perk system in principle but just what vanilla looks like then we are in agreement.

 

 

 

 

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

@meganoth And what vanilla looks like is exactly the topic here, this isn´t about what the perk system could be, but about what it is and what would be best for the game.  Even without elixir, the perk system still is the one that makes it easier to min/max if it hasn´t level restrictions. 

 

 

[meganoth]

5 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

@meganoth And what vanilla looks like is exactly the topic here, this isn´t about what the perk system could be, but about what it is and what would be best for the game.  Even without elixir, the perk system still is the one that makes it easier to min/max if it hasn´t level restrictions. 

 

 

 

 Vanilla is one of the topics. As I was initially replying to Khyron's idea his idea should be an approved topic as well, don't you think? 😉 

 

"Best for the game" depends very much on the specific player, or for TFP the group of players TFP is targetting with the game. I for example have no problem with elixier and min/maxers and have no problem with other players using it, mostly because I don't play competitively with anyone.

 

Basic vanilla will never be heaven for PvP players on open servers, they probably need a special mode, or EAC-friendly workshop mods. I don't know what TFP wants to do for them exactly after release, but they show no sign of wanting to nail down the release version itself for PvP and restrict the possibilities for SP, co-op MP and new players. Especially level-gates were already tried out by TFP and they seem to have decided to not want level-gates (and lots of players as well).

 

Now the current perk system would be relatively free of min/max if it weren't for two things: Traders are too powerful which makes higher levels of the daringadventurer and BB perks too valuable. And the (non-perky) magazine system got changed in the last minor alphas to be exploitable. The trader fault TFP seems very reluctant to change, the OP perk-boost we know TFP will not change (at least for now), I got the confirmation through my bug report. But both are fixable in theory.

 

The same goes for any other scheme TFP might implement, perk-based or LBD-based. In theory it could be free of min/max exploits, but it probably won't be if TFP doesn't consider it as one of the most important design principles for their game.

 

 

If you are proposing to just copy DF into vanilla just because it is not min/maxable (if it is(?), I don't really know), that would be an idiotic idea for many reasons.