Traders and quests need to be nerfed

[theFlu]

37 minutes ago, meganoth said:

I'm sure there are people who hate that as it breaks their "trance".

I don't even mine that much, but I'd rather not be guessing the whole time. I'd probably trade ever being able to one-shot anything to having it be constant...

[RipClaw]

42 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Speaking about your case, we know you have a play style that isn't normal and the balance for normal players would probably be perfectly fine with 10, maybe 15 repairs (exact amount determined by playtesting).

My playstyle is as normal as everyone else's. Everyone says their playstyle is normal. So "normal" is meaningless in this context.

 

I think when you have to repair your primary weapon multiple times over the course of a horde night then 10-15 repairs from Q6 to broken are not really that much. Or did you mean 10-15 repairs per quality level ?

 

I played the Undead Legacy mod in A20 where you either had to use extremely expensive repair kits or repair the items in the maintenance station. If you did not have the necessary level of the maintenance station you had to repair the weapon at the trader for money. I always had several weapons during the horde night that I used until they were broken and then I switched to the next one. This is probably the strategy players would use if item degradation were added to the game. They would then have several identical or similar weapons. I doubt anyone would want to risk the weapon dropping a quality level on horde night and possibly losing a mod slot or the weapon becoming completely unrepairable.

 

But what would definitely happen is that someone would mod out the item degradation. In every game that had item degradation, there were either strategies to get around it or a mod to remove it from the game.

 

[Rince]

I already can't find T6 for my dear life. If they would add item degradation... *shudders*

 

Count me as the one seaching for a mod to disable it immediately.

[EvilPolygons]

23 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

My playstyle is as normal as everyone else's. Everyone says their playstyle is normal. So "normal" is meaningless in this context.

 

I think when you have to repair your primary weapon multiple times over the course of a horde night then 10-15 repairs from Q6 to broken are not really that much. Or did you mean 10-15 repairs per quality level ?

 

I played the Undead Legacy mod in A20 where you either had to use extremely expensive repair kits or repair the items in the maintenance station. If you did not have the necessary level of the maintenance station you had to repair the weapon at the trader for money. I always had several weapons during the horde night that I used until they were broken and then I switched to the next one. This is probably the strategy players would use if item degradation were added to the game. They would then have several identical or similar weapons. I doubt anyone would want to risk the weapon dropping a quality level on horde night and possibly losing a mod slot or the weapon becoming completely unrepairable.

 

But what would definitely happen is that someone would mod out the item degradation. In every game that had item degradation, there were either strategies to get around it or a mod to remove it from the game.

 

 

I've been playing with item degradation for awhile now. It really just isn't as extreme as you're making it out to be. Without it, once you have all top-quality gear, there's basically nothing left to look forward to. I mean, how many QL6 guns do you really need when the ones you have will last forever? At a certain point, even the absolute best loot drops eventually end up being vendor trash when the stuff you have never wears out. It's the endgame wall I mentioned earlier.

That's all a bit off topic, though. Back to the trader issue, in my experience so far, item degradation definitely helps to reduce the feeling that trader quest rewards are always ahead of your crafting level. The rewards are fun now because I know they won't last forever and I'm not left feeling like crafting is pointless in comparison. Admittedly I was reluctant to try it initially (because I usually don't like losing my stuff in games) but I'm glad I did. Definitely in my list of must-have mods from now on. I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else that you should enjoy this particular game mechanic. But it works for me. 🤷‍♂️

 

By the way, to just clear something up -- this particular mod doesn't degrade items to point of being totally irreparable. Once an item degrades to QL1, it can still be repaired endlessly. It's just stuck at QL1 from that point on. So you're never left completely without a tool or weapon in a bad situation (assuming you have a repair kit).

 

[RipClaw]

18 minutes ago, EvilPolygons said:

I've been playing with item degradation for awhile now. It really just isn't as extreme as you're making it out to be. Without it, once you have all top-quality gear, there's basically nothing left to look forward to.

Sure, if the gear is all that matters to you in the game. The way I see it, once I have the gear I need, I have more time to spend testing new ideas and building bases.

In case you haven't noticed, I'm more into mining and building than looting. So the idea of an endless loot run is not very appealing to me.

 

[BFT2020]

2 hours ago, RipClaw said:

My playstyle is as normal as everyone else's. Everyone says their playstyle is normal. So "normal" is meaningless in this context.

 

I gladly say that my playstyle is nowhere near "normal".  😏

[Riamus]

I would hate to have item degradation added to this game in any form.  It doesn't offer me anything other than the pain of having to constantly replace things and that isn't what I'd consider fun.  Yes, you reach the best equipment in this game.  That really isn't a bad thing.  As RipClaw said, this gives you more time to focus on other things.  My game changes as I progress.  I start out doing a lot of questing and after I have resources and good equipment, I start questing less often and focus on other parts of the game like building.  I already don't really care for the early game and prefer to get past that quickly and move on to the rest of the game where I can actually do something besides only going out killing stuff and looting.  I like doing that but I also like being able to build interesting bases and such and that isn't easy until you have a reliable and fast source of lots of resources.  If I have to always go out scavenging no matter what point in the game I am in just to get enough parts to constantly replace equipment, I'd have to either mod the game or stop playing it because it would put so much limitation on what my choices are in the game.  I'd have to be looting too often just to keep up with broken tools.  Weapons wouldn't break as quickly once I move away from lots of questing but even for them, I wouldn't want item degradation.  I think that's something fine in a mod but not in vanilla.

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, RipClaw said:

My playstyle is as normal as everyone else's. Everyone says their playstyle is normal. So "normal" is meaningless in this context.

 

With "Normal" in this context I meant that the person is doing enough looting to be able to replace his tools once in a while. And I meant the person has a resource demand that does not need him to mine every night of the week. Probably that is the normal player TFP is targeting with their balancing.

 

3 hours ago, RipClaw said:

I think when you have to repair your primary weapon multiple times over the course of a horde night then 10-15 repairs from Q6 to broken are not really that much. Or did you mean 10-15 repairs per quality level ?

 

 

Possibly. If it were 20 repairs or more I wouldn#t be surprised. At the moment repairs are easy enough that I don't register them and can't say how many times I have to repair a weapon in a horde night or a tool in a night of mining. All up for playtesting. The only thing I am almost sure about is that 100 seems a number where nobody could tell the difference between having degradation and having no degradation.

 

If playtesting shows that many players get into trouble getting enough parts because they replace their degrading weapon much earlier than expected then durability in the higher qualities could be increased, or the availability of parts increased, or higher qualities could have less chance to degrade a step and lower qualities a higher chance. All part of the balancing.

 

3 hours ago, RipClaw said:

But what would definitely happen is that someone would mod out the item degradation. In every game that had item degradation, there were either strategies to get around it or a mod to remove it from the game.

 

 

You could put this sentence under almost any change TFP has ever made. May I remind you that there have even been mods to bring back sticks. And I don't know if a crafting grid mod exists, but a few days ago someone bitterly lamented the removal of that. I would even say it is an argument FOR adding degradation because there will surely be a mod for everyone who can't stand it.

 

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, theFlu said:

I don't even mine that much, but I'd rather not be guessing the whole time. I'd probably trade ever being able to one-shot anything to having it be constant...

 

My gut feeling is I would not mind this uncertainty, but like you I am not sure. So I would expect both of us to try it out before reaching a final opinion 😉.

 

I mean, wouldn't it be nice to actually have an advantage if you should find a shovel 3 qualities higher? Instead of like it is now where there are about 2-3 shovel qualities (over all tiers) that make a difference and everything inbetween doesn't matter at all?

 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

11 minutes ago, meganoth said:

I would even say it is an argument FOR adding degradation because there will surely be a mod for everyone who can't stand it.

And there is already a mod for those who want to have it. Unless there is a huge run on this mod, I assume that the desire for item degradation among the player base is not that big.

 

[BFT2020]

On 7/12/2023 at 4:22 PM, meganoth said:

I assume BFT has fun modding, so naturally he spends a lot of time modding. And he may have modded for a 1000 hours, but surely not all of that on one issue like making weapons unrepairable, give him some credit please 😁

 

 

No, I am actually chained up to a chair and there is this big burly guy with a livestock prodder behind me motivating me to keep working on mods.  These posts are them being "nice" to me and giving me breaks  😏

 

I was about to say 1000 hours seems too much, then realized once you take into things like creating and testing modlets for others and rewriting old code to make it more efficient, I probably have broken the 1000 hour mark already.

[meganoth]

2 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

And there is already a mod for those who want to have it. Unless there is a huge run on this mod, I assume that the desire for item degradation among the player base is not that big.

 

 

There won't be a run for a "debuff" mod, sure. But the reason for TFP to implement it would not be because of popularity but because of balancing the game.

 

I would assume a mod to make water scarce in A20 would have been only installed by a few die-hards as well. It is one thing to say you want more survival and another thing to actually then install a mod to add it.

For a similar reason many players want a real dead-is-dead option instead of just simulating it themselves because they don't trust their own resolve.

 

11 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

 

No, I am actually chained up to a chair and there is this big burly guy with a livestock prodder behind me motivating me to keep working on mods.  These posts are them being "nice" to me and giving me breaks  😏

 

Wait, @SnowDog1942 is at **your** place?

 

[theFlu]

46 minutes ago, meganoth said:

So I would expect both of us to try it out before reaching a final opinion 😉.

 

I mean, wouldn't it be nice to actually have an advantage if you should find a shovel 3 qualities higher? Instead of like it is now where there are about 2-3 shovel qualities (over all tiers) that make a difference and everything inbetween doesn't matter at all?

Oh hey, something we agree on the first pass. The testing part that is.

 

The shovels, weeeelll. There's 18 tiers of shovel in this game. I like the idea in principle, absolutely but .. I don't think I like shoveling quite that much

 

As in: having 18 noticeable steps in shovels would make for quite the gap between day 1 Buried Supplies and the Final Form For Forge Filling Funsies - if the last upgrade still needs to feel like an upgrade, at least the second to last can't be one-shotting Topsoil. Or there would need to be some sort of gun-safes-for-shovels, big HP blocks you'd want to repeatedly be working on. Return of the zombie corpses, just with 2500 HP?

 

If you'd go for random-but-noticeable, the amount of swings-on-average would still need to go down by a half per swing, at least. That'd put a q1 stone shovel in the vicinity of 9-10 swings on Topsoil. It's not That far off atm, but it sounds a little high. That's just for the base shovel, Miner69er would be bypassing tiers and if left as such, the shovels would again cap before the last upgrades. Don't know if that would be a problem, but at least in principle that would mean the tool-specialist not getting anything from the upgrades or the skill, whichever they want to whine about...

[BFT2020]

so shovels......

 

Just a random thought from my brain - why not have distinctions between the quality levels, not simply an universal increase on all characteristics.....

 

maybe something like Q1 - baseline, Q2 - buff to block damage, Q3 - same damage as Q2 but a buff to durability and stamina usage, Q4 - same as Q3 but buffed block damage, Q5 - same as Q4 but with buffs to durability and stamina usage, Q6 - buff to all critical attributes

 

So pulling out the logic from my brain:

• Q1 - you learn to make a basic shovel
• Q2 - you improve on the blade design, lowering effort to damage blocks
• Q3 - you improve on the overall design, making it lighter and stronger
• Q4 - more improvements on blade design
• Q5 - more improvements to weight and usage
• Q6 - this is a shovel crafted by a shovel master

Just something I thought of while you guys were discussing shovels

 

[theFlu]

Not a bad idea as such, couple caveats pop to mind though:

1) I'd likely end up skipping tiers based on that. With your draft set, I'd practically never craft the Q2->Q3 upgrade.

2) If implemented, crafting would kinda require showing the stat changes somehow. Of course having them anyway would be nice, but it's not really necessary for the current progress.

 

Making each step a mandatory intermediary for crafting would of course solve both of those - as in crafting a Q2 would consume a Q1 + mats. Kinda like it does already with the multiples of mats... you just don't craft the previous one now.

[BFT2020]

On 7/8/2023 at 9:13 PM, theFlu said:

Hmm, at the current stage, you get a forge by day .. 2? I don't think I use _a_ bulk of stone arrows in the current meta, soo; yeah, there's something to fix there. But unless the tech tree speed is absolutely borked atm, the fix is mostly to remove the bulk option...

 

I actually create an ammo crafting quest where you could unlock bulk arrow crafting by Day 1 if you collected enough feathers.  Even if I was to get a forge early on, the other changes make iron more valuable to save for forged iron rather than going into arrow head production right away.  I think I used stone arrows up to Day 8 before, once I had enough scrap iron that I could start producing iron arrows in bulk (and unlocked the bulk crafting recipe for them).

 

For A21, I am going to create an ammo crafting magazine series and tie the arrows, bolts, and firearm ammo to it (and removing the unlocks from the perk books).

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

Wait, @SnowDog1942 is at **your** place?

 

I don't think it is him.  This guys just gets off on causing pain to others, SnowDog gets off in a completely different manner  😏

[BFT2020]

36 minutes ago, theFlu said:

Making each step a mandatory intermediary for crafting would of course solve both of those - as in crafting a Q2 would consume a Q1 + mats. Kinda like it does already with the multiples of mats... you just don't craft the previous one now.

 

I thought about that (even including it in my mod) but wasn't sure if I can specify a quality level of an item to consume.  Also, would bloat out the recipe file if you have to have a unique recipe for each quality level now (compared to the current structure where you can just passively increase the resource count as quality goes up).

[Blake_]

On 7/13/2023 at 4:18 PM, meganoth said:

 

Even then players would want some of their equipment to fight bandits to come from looting or crafting and not all from the trader. The solution can be to reign in the trader OR to speed up looting and crafting.

 

 

 

But we haven't even reached the "you said this 5 posts earlier" phase !!!  😁

 

 

Traders do need to be decentralized. More npcs should give quests, more shops should be available, non-important ones, with respawnable random npcs that give and maintain quests even after death because they will respawn close by in the worst case attack/raid. THEN, we can talk about the balancing. Right now, they are good for what they are, a bit OP without a reputation system and faction shenanigans, but ok. I do understand the need to do something. I'll still vote for waiting right now. Gameplay is still in flux as we said, and late game hasn't even been touched, as we understand. It's all Rolands fault, a Math teacher can't be a PHD in International Diplomacy, yet that part of his AI works too good, so it must be broken.

[Roland]

I actually just finished my degree in International Diplomacy. My thesis was on how Poutine maintains the peace on the USA northern border. You may refer to me henceforth as Doctor Roland or Professor Roland.

 

Traders still have development work to be done on them and I have no doubt we will hear forum rants in the future about why traders were overhauled again when nobody asked for that to happen and that the changes erased whole swaths of the community's preferred playstyles....

 

If there's one thing you can bank on it is the livid reaction of somebody to any change. (Trust me, I'm a doctor!)

[Roland]

15 hours ago, RipClaw said:

And there is already a mod for those who want to have it. Unless there is a huge run on this mod, I assume that the desire for item degradation among the player base is not that big.

 

 

I can pretty much guarantee that if item degradation is ever added to this game it would only be as an option that players who want it can enable. Maybe TFP will do it from the start for their next game but this one is almost done and they already had it implemented at one point and intentionally chose to cut it. Finally, as you point out, it is a majorly divisive feature. I won't say which side is the majority but let's pretend it is roughly 50-50 but also very polarizing about how people feel about it. There's not much "meh" regarding it. It tends to be either love or hate and that's risky to add when your game is sitting in the top 10 every weekend and courting 100k players for the first time ever-- and degradation isn't part of the game.

 

Degradation is better as an official option or an unofficial mod, imo.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Roland (see edit history)

[meganoth]

On 7/14/2023 at 6:55 PM, theFlu said:

Oh hey, something we agree on the first pass. The testing part that is.

 

The shovels, weeeelll. There's 18 tiers of shovel in this game. I like the idea in principle, absolutely but .. I don't think I like shoveling quite that much

 

As in: having 18 noticeable steps in shovels would make for quite the gap between day 1 Buried Supplies and the Final Form For Forge Filling Funsies - if the last upgrade still needs to feel like an upgrade, at least the second to last can't be one-shotting Topsoil. Or there would need to be some sort of gun-safes-for-shovels, big HP blocks you'd want to repeatedly be working on. Return of the zombie corpses, just with 2500 HP?

 

If you'd go for random-but-noticeable, the amount of swings-on-average would still need to go down by a half per swing, at least. That'd put a q1 stone shovel in the vicinity of 9-10 swings on Topsoil. It's not That far off atm, but it sounds a little high. That's just for the base shovel, Miner69er would be bypassing tiers and if left as such, the shovels would again cap before the last upgrades. Don't know if that would be a problem, but at least in principle that would mean the tool-specialist not getting anything from the upgrades or the skill, whichever they want to whine about...

 

I used shovels as an example, but the same happens with pickaxe and mining blocks and that is where it would be more important. You also don't think you like mining that much? I know players who do.

 

I never said that the 18 steps would need to be immediately noticable and I don't want to extend minimum and maximum damage of the current tools. Since the random damage on top would be plus or minus, even if you are generally one-shotting blocks you might still get blocks where you need two hits because you rolled a big minus value with your first hit. And then another step might get you to less or even no two-shotting. And even if the highest levels with full miner69er don't make much difference anymore, many levels inbetween would.

 

Likely a player would notice when the "switching point" is near between 3-hitting and 2-hitting a block, or 2-hitting and 1-hitting a block. Because at that time he would notice a few blocks needing less hits. And once he switches to a pickaxe one or two quality steps higher he would notice that blocks are now more frequently needing fewer hits.

Even if that effect is small he would probably realize that every quality step means less 3-hitting and more 2-hitting. And generally that every step helps now being faster at mining

 

 

Edited July 15, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[theFlu]

10 minutes ago, meganoth said:

I used shovels as an example, but the same happens with pickaxe and mining blocks and that is where it would be more important. You also don't think you like mining that much? I know players who do.

Apologies for the confusion, I misread "shovels" when I should've read "picks".

 

Picks are in a lot better place as is; there's plenty of 7k5 and 10k metal blocks to beat thru at the end of POIs, any slight increase in damage shows every time I complete one. I have absolutely no need for variance in them to show them improving, my most common use case shows it just fine

The surface mines are trivial to find from the map, and the rare mineral needs for early game are met with so few swings that I usually won't mine "properly" in early game. That means I practically won't mine with the same Tier of picks twice, much less consecutive qualities - so even if made granular, I wouldn't ever notice it in mining. I'd be using some high tier tools for any amount of heavy mining as it'll be late in the game by then.

 

Having random amount of swings would plague me in Every session of mining. On every block.

 

The only place I'd have any feel for more granularity in picks, would be a dwarf playthru; I haven't dared try one yet, as I expect it to suck with the changes. Plus my stealthless Agi playthru is going fine still ..

 

[meganoth]

13 minutes ago, theFlu said:

Apologies for the confusion, I misread "shovels" when I should've read "picks".

 

No. I talked about shovels as an example, because it was an easier case and would be noticed by players more easily. But after you told me you don't really use the shovel much and don't care I brought up the other example, which is a bit more complex because there are more blocks (as you correctly noted). Now you made it again clear you don't really need the pickaxe either, except for hitting some steel blocks late game.

 

I probably should mention I am discussing balancing of the game in general, not you or me specifically.

 

I assume there are players like me around who actually use a pickaxe and shovels in early and midgame for resource blocks, quests and mining, they might or might not be interested in the mod.

And since I did not remember exactly, I checked out the useful range of shovels. Until quality 4 iron a non-miner (someone with 1 point in miner69 and a fully modded shovel, including grave digger) would not be able to one-shot resource blocks in POIs, the first one-shot shovel is the quality 5 iron shovel. This means without changing average damage someone would probably see a difference up to q6 iron or q1 steel.

 

 

 

[theFlu]

6 minutes ago, meganoth said:

not you or me specifically.

I talk about me as an example, as I know of nothing else. I can't say I know even that all too well, but we use what we have. For what comparison I can see, I don't differ that much from the couple youtubers I follow (Kage848, JaWoodle), that's about it. My point was not to tell you I don't use either, I wouldn't have bothered. The shovel comment was a joke: "shoveling that much" = you'd have to make the first tiers of shovel take 19 hits on topsoil to reduce the number of swings by one per "tier of shovel". Nineteen! That makes digging for the 50 needed for the forge sound like a chore already.

 

I don't expect the game to be balanced around me; but I'm basically doing what TFP has designed for the current meta, questing. For reference, and the inevitable arguments of speed running from the other mod: I'm a few hours before the d35 horde, default 60 min days. My first trader is on T6 quests, I don't think I completed that tier yet. My second trader is on the last T3:s by now. I've lived in Pine Forest and the Desert, quested wherever the closest ones happen to be, mostly Pine & Desert. So, it's been rather chill. Warrior diff.

 

I'm carrying around a Q6 Steel Pickaxe, a Q6 Auger (not using it, wanted it to be better, but it isn't) and a Q6 Stone Axe. I've looted a Q1 Steel Axe, but I didn't even look at the stats - it would take roughly as much time to open the loot crates and you can't upgrade with it. Two slow swings vs three (or four?) quick ones.

 

Picks: I have mined for a bit (15 blocks?) of nitrate to make a few growth beds, and about two blocks of coal to purify water. I've beat open numerous end loot chests: 7 quests per tier, ~5 tiers of locked ones = about 35 of them. And quite a few doors, for proper sealing of the mystical traps. And whatever safes I've been bothered about.

 

Shoveled something like 50 blocks for clay, dug up a couple <Name>'s Treasure Maps. Haven't bothered with the random pallets in POIs, the traders sell cobble for free.

 

Can't make concrete yet, haven't made a mixer. I could, but I haven't needed any, standing on a random 3-high fence has basically sufficed for the first 4 hordes (3m parkour and an SMG ftw). I did make a safe zone on it, and an electric fence to stunlock things if need be, but they aren't really necessary. As such, I haven't had any need to mine for stone, or sand (I think sand is still faster to make from stone, but still).

 

I honestly don't know why I should've mined any more than I have, and I'm already in the BIS items. But to take it as "I don't use either" is a little misleading. Mislead? With the current meta, I don't think I'm Meant to use them, but I still do, some.

 

That all said; I did try to talk about the balancing of shovels from the PoV of someone who'd use every rank. It would make logical sense, but wouldn't really fit the game IMO. You'd have to make the starter shovels real weak. Picks work better as is, but I already said all that.. I dunno man, do you disagree with something in my assessment, or did you just decide I haven't seen a pick and thus have no idea what I'm talking about?

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, theFlu said:

talk about me as an example, as I know of nothing else. I can't say I know even that all too well, but we use what we have. For what comparison I can see, I don't differ that much from the couple youtubers I follow (Kage848, JaWoodle), that's about it. My point was not to tell you I don't use either, I wouldn't have bothered. The shovel comment was a joke: "shoveling that much" = you'd have to make the first tiers of shovel take 19 hits on topsoil to reduce the number of swings by one per "tier of shovel". Nineteen! That makes digging for the 50 needed for the forge sound like a chore already.

 

I just reread that post again to be sure: It postulates that you need to make each quality step down would need either one more swing or half of that at least to be noticable. I explained why I disagree. Will there be people who don't notice it? Probably. You probably among them as you use the shovel for about 50 clay as you say. But I am sure there will be lots of people noticing it around prominent points where for example two hits turn into one hit slowly. And that "slowly" might be 4 to 6 quality levels.

 

3 hours ago, theFlu said:

honestly don't know why I should've mined any more than I have, and I'm already in the BIS items. But to take it as "I don't use either" is a little misleading. Mislead?

 

I said "... you don't really use the shovel". I am not an english native speaker, but I am fairly sure that sentence means "using a shovel very seldom" not "you don't ever use a shovel".

 

Now my gaming group is actually shoveling those resource blocks in POIs, and our miner is shoveling for clay from time to time. And naturally the pickaxe is much in use for mining. We collect a lot of resources because we don't build some minimal piece of structure like you. But we also don't build as big as some of the bases that were posted here in the forum. And I would say even those are dwarfed by whatever RipClaw builds. Now that makes you and RipClaw the extremes and my group somewhere in the middle, though we don't know the distribution of players in each group. But ...

 

3 hours ago, theFlu said:

With the current meta, I don't think I'm Meant to use them, but I still do, some.

 

I know that Madmole is somewhere near my group, at least when he showed the bases of his playthroughs. If he didn't completely change his taste and still is the one to define the meta, then you likely misinterpreted the meta.  

 

TFP updated the game from some 100 block shapes (?) in A16 to now 1000 or 2000. They surely did all this work just to give you a glimpse of a really big useless menue while you select the shape for the horde fence, right?

 

3 hours ago, theFlu said:

I dunno man, do you disagree with something in my assessment, or did you just decide I haven't seen a pick and thus have no idea what I'm talking about?

 

Yes, I definitely disagree. I don't think you are a typical case. You are a veteran player and probably a very good shooter player and you have already optimized your game down to essentials. Many players of 7D2D are not, and they probably don't just use a horde fence for the first 4 horde nights.

 

I asked a friend how kage and jawoodle play, and he told me jawoodle is a talented builder building complex and interesting stuff (though he uses the POI designer or creative menu for building, so he saves himself the resource gathering). That doesn't sound like someone who would use a minimal base on horde night. And how he plays on video definitely doesn't sound like how a normal player would play 7D2D either.

 

 

 

Edited July 16, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[katarynna]

5 hours ago, meganoth said:

I asked a friend how kage and jawoodle play, and he told me jawoodle is a talented builder building complex and interesting stuff (though he uses the POI designer or creative menu for building, so he saves himself the resource gathering). That doesn't sound like someone who would use a minimal base on horde night. And how he plays on video definitely doesn't sound like how a normal player would play 7D2D either.

Jawoodle? Your friend obviously only watches his jawoodle park (creative mode world where he tries things out).

 

In his playthroughs, he strives for minimal work and maximum efficiency, at least for early and midgame. I don't remember how long into the game he used his firehouse base, but it was at least through midgame and was less than 10 blocks. Often he starts building his horde base about 5pm on horde night and hopes it works.

 

His most recent horde base was less than 10 blocks added to the red and white very high tower thing.... which collapsed (before midnight i believe). He had put down hay bales in case he needed to escape, so luckily he didn't die. He hopped onto a nearby wall and managed to not die by fighting from there for the rest of the night, which is great since he plays permadeath.

 

He has some great ideas... and some really bad ones. He is a creative builder for sure, but he rarely builds complex things in his playthroughs. Creative and interesting, while using minimal materials for early and mid game. Late game, he may build something a bit more complex, like the crawling base he built in the wastelands. That one still wasn't large or super complex. It was just built so all the zombies were forced to crawl towards him, making it easy to get headshots.

 

Kage builds larger and more complex though. But Josh... ANYONE could copy a lot of his horde base designs from memory without referring to his videos.