Why lvl 6 gear cannot be crafted?

[Archael]

I really dont understand it.
I can get that being able to craft lvl6 gear could remove looting part... but we have to loot parts to craft better gear, so there will always be scavenging for loot.
Right now crafting is really unnecessary...
I hit me after last game with my friends. We played more roleplay. One was our camp-mama - farming, coocking etc. One was scavenging and doing some quests. One was hunting and questing. And I was mining all day long.
When Friend 2 found auger schamatic in trader stock i had no parts to craft auger. But the next day, friend 3 found lvl6 auger while scavenging some poi.
At the moment, crafting is just... bad. Every item you can find, and at the top of that, you can find lvl6 items, while crafting is capped at lvl5.

 

edit: especially now, when crafting is gated behind scavenging magazines.

Why?
Why in crafting game, grafting is unnecessary?

Edited June 16, 2023 by Archael (see edit history)

[Kosmic Kerman]

Is there an answer that will satisfy you?  Ultimately what you are asking is to be guaranteed an item you want rather than having to rely on RNG.  And so what you are really asking is why some games (including 7dtd) rely on RNG for certain loot rather than guaranteeing that loot after you perform some arbitrary tasks. The unsatisfying answer is that it is a well established  game mechanic. RNG provides replayability and a dopamine hit when you finally get what you want.

[theFlu]

Yeh, for your title, T6 is a placeholder for legendaries.. probably some fun things with additional effects on them. Until they show up, it feels rather pointless.

 

As for the crafting itself.. loot and trader are supplying most of what you use - it's been that way, and now with the nerf to books, I fully expect Not to craft any items beyond some stone tier tools. Traps, utility electrics, steel, mods etc, sure, but the actual toolbelt items are going to come from the trader loop.

 

I'm not happy about it, but it is what it is.

[pahbi]

If you don't mind using mods, I have a mod that re-enables tier 6 crafting.

 

https://community.7daystodie.com/topic/26048-a21-modlets-lotl-perk-fast-plant-growth-adds-recipes-updated-from-a20/

 

 

[7daysOfFun]

5 hours ago, Archael said:

I really dont understand it.
I can get that being able to craft lvl6 gear could remove looting part... but we have to loot parts to craft better gear, so there will always be scavenging for loot.
Right now crafting is really unnecessary...
I hit me after last game with my friends. We played more roleplay. One was our camp-mama - farming, coocking etc. One was scavenging and doing some quests. One was hunting and questing. And I was mining all day long.
When Friend 2 found auger schamatic in trader stock i had no parts to craft auger. But the next day, friend 3 found lvl6 auger while scavenging some poi.
At the moment, crafting is just... bad. Every item you can find, and at the top of that, you can find lvl6 items, while crafting is capped at lvl5.

 

edit: especially now, when crafting is gated behind scavenging magazines.

Why?
Why in crafting game, grafting is unnecessary?

i can explain this..

u say when u loot and u find it, why u shoud craft it?

remember: u must search circa 250 bags (2-5%chance) to have a chance to get the utility u want, then its the level u must search 6x 250 bags to get your favourite utility tool at the level

its like roulette...the chance is that your numbers come?

u can sit all night in casino and not 1 number comes...or the nooby enter the casino and with the first hit he hits the jackpot

the level 6 things are the "casino gift in 7 days"...u can only find it, when u loot, its like a reward that u look in every bin/bag/cabinet & so on

 

for new player or at the beginning of the game, when u have only level 1 oder 2 tools, and you find a 5 or 6...u have happy rainbow smiling

have i explained good ? (sry for my bad english)

[Mister Forgash]

I'd really like if they allowed us to craft Q6 Stone and Iron tools/weapons.. ..Maybe on Steel, make it require some kind of expensive 'Grandpas creativity elixir' or whatever- and even then have the chance to have crap stats so that every time you find or craft a costly Q6, there's that moment of anticipation when you look through the stats and you hope it's not a dud.

[Archael]

5 hours ago, 7daysOfFun said:

i can explain this..

u say when u loot and u find it, why u shoud craft it?

remember: u must search circa 250 bags (2-5%chance) to have a chance to get the utility u want, then its the level u must search 6x 250 bags to get your favourite utility tool at the level

its like roulette...the chance is that your numbers come?

u can sit all night in casino and not 1 number comes...or the nooby enter the casino and with the first hit he hits the jackpot

the level 6 things are the "casino gift in 7 days"...u can only find it, when u loot, its like a reward that u look in every bin/bag/cabinet & so on

 

for new player or at the beginning of the game, when u have only level 1 oder 2 tools, and you find a 5 or 6...u have happy rainbow smiling

have i explained good ? (sry for my bad english)

Yeah, but you already have to find materials for crafting (rulette) and schematic or magazines depending on game version (rulette), and at the top of that even if you manage to win this rulette, you cannot create lvl6 gear. Most of the time crafting is unecessairy. All thing we had in our base was not crafted (except stone axes) but scavenged, all with lvl 5-6.
Again - why make crafting game where crafting is unnecessairy?
We already have looting part because we have to find magazines and parts. Why we cannot have crafting?

[boban]

3 hours ago, Archael said:

Again - why make crafting game where crafting is unnecessairy?

 

It was necessary till A16.4. Then we got dungeon-type POI, which TFP is very proud off and wants you to explore them.

[Archael]

15 hours ago, Kosmic Kerman said:

Is there an answer that will satisfy you?  Ultimately what you are asking is to be guaranteed an item you want rather than having to rely on RNG.  And so what you are really asking is why some games (including 7dtd) rely on RNG for certain loot rather than guaranteeing that loot after you perform some arbitrary tasks. The unsatisfying answer is that it is a well established  game mechanic. RNG provides replayability and a dopamine hit when you finally get what you want.

But even having guaranteed item from crafting, im still depending on RNG.
I cannot learn to craft stell and mechanical gear, or better armor other than by looting and RNG. I cannot gather resourcess for crafting other than through looting and RNG. I have to deal with RNG to gather materials and recipes for crafting AND i have to spend point for skills i need to craft those (in A21 i dont have to, but i still have to deal with RNG to learn how to craft, and even more than in A20) and yet, i still cant get lvl 6 gear. I just have to scavenge a little more, ignore schematics and parts and find what i need. Hey, its faster to actually find lvl6 auger than to find schematics and parts to craft lvl 5 auger.
I dont want to have things for free, what i want is that if i already iovested so much in skills, i would like to use that skill, crafting in this manner. ESPECIALLY that learning crafting is THROUGH RNG.

1 hour ago, boban said:

 

It was necessary till A16.4. Then we got dungeon-type POI, which TFP is very proud off and wants you to explore them.

POIs are great even tho easly exploitable. But it doesnt matter in terms of gear lvl. I already have to deal with scavenging to learn how to craft and find essential materials for crafting, so at least i should be able to craft best gear. Still mods are needed for that gear to be fully top tier, and those are also lootable, so let those dungeons stay, but let make crafting in crafting game a necessary.

[pahbi]

12 minutes ago, Archael said:

But even having guaranteed item from crafting, im still depending on RNG.
I cannot learn to craft stell and mechanical gear, or better armor other than by looting and RNG. I cannot gather resourcess for crafting other than through looting and RNG. I have to deal with RNG to gather materials and recipes for crafting AND i have to spend point for skills i need to craft those (in A21 i dont have to, but i still have to deal with RNG to learn how to craft, and even more than in A20) and yet, i still cant get lvl 6 gear. I just have to scavenge a little more, ignore schematics and parts and find what i need. Hey, its faster to actually find lvl6 auger than to find schematics and parts to craft lvl 5 auger.
I dont want to have things for free, what i want is that if i already iovested so much in skills, i would like to use that skill, crafting in this manner. ESPECIALLY that learning crafting is THROUGH RNG.

 

Totally agree.  However, with the rabid fans and mods that inhabit these forums its 110% pointless to post anything here.  It will never see the light of day to the devs, and the entire time your trying to bring something to light you will be relentlessly attacked by the rabid fans who feel its their duty to protect the game, and mods who will inform you of why you are wrong.

 

The only available solution is to put rabid fans and mods on ignore, and then mod game to your liking.  I'm not a programmer by any stretch, but I was able to learn to make some mods by looking at what others did, and using a xpath tester to eventually figure stuff out.

 

The learn by reading thing isn't bad as a concept, but its just to much.  75 books to master a skill is really just silly when you think about it.  So I'm making a work around mod that will allow players to just craft books from paper, glue and leather.  The better solution would be to just not require so many books, but my programming skills just aren't up to that.  

 

 

Edited June 17, 2023 by pahbi (see edit history)

[Balthazod]

I had hoped for a return of crafting but its even more redundant then A20 the learn by reading is pointless, its so far behind the player level you can buy loot, or get as reward items much greater then you can craft.  It also makes the perk system less relevant taking away some sense on control of player development,  I am level 40 and still stuck on bicycle I am finding A21 really boring to play.  

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, Balthazod said:

I had hoped for a return of crafting but its even more redundant then A20 the learn by reading is pointless, its so far behind the player level you can buy loot, or get as reward items much greater then you can craft.  It also makes the perk system less relevant taking away some sense on control of player development,  I am level 40 and still stuck on bicycle I am finding A21 really boring to play.  

 

If that's the case shouldn't you have been able to buy/loot a motorbike or its parts by now? Did you try to loot car-centric POIs?

 

It is actually still quite random. In our game I can already craft a quality 5 turret while I haven't looted or been able to buy even a quality 1. But there are other magazine types where we are behind our finds.

 

Edited June 17, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Vaeliorin]

Yeah, things you spec into you end up way ahead of what you can loot (unless you're in the snow/wasteland) but the stuff you don't spec into your can buy/find better everywhere.

 

Like, I have a q5 stun baton I built, and I've found a total of 1 stun baton that was q2 (and that was mostly because I was desperately raiding a mo power store trying to get the last magazine I needed to unlock electric traps before the day 7 horde.)

[Balthazod]

19 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

If that's the case shouldn't you have been able to buy/loot a motorbike or its parts by now? Did you try to loot car-centric POIs?

 

It is actually still quite random. In our game I can already craft a quality 5 turret while I haven't looted or been able to buy even a quality 1. But there are other magazine types where we are behind our finds.

 

I have looted every auto related POI I can find so I have a bicycle I have looked for them another towns and traders but no auto mags for sale or motorbikes. That's one of the problems with the learn by reading depending on what poi's are located in your area  fix's the skills you can develop.  

Edited June 18, 2023 by Balthazod (see edit history)

[Gr.o.m.]

Go and max out Daring Adventurer for getting better Trader. I put a single point into it and while I still cannot craft a tier 2 primitive bow I was offered a tier 3 AK47.

So why bothering with that crafting book nonsene, get money and Daring Adventurer and buy yourself a motorcycle.

[Archael]

I started playing a21 with day lenght of 2h, and reducing loot to x0.5

I apend points into miner69er, batons, fortitude with off the land, iron gut and healing factor.

I have found tons of magazines but most was cooking, madicine, repairing tools.

Trader had tons of books and magazines, and magazine bundles are best quest rewards imo.

I just learned lvl5 stone axe, but already had that from poi loot. I also got iron shovel lvl4, i had most gear of lvl 3 without need for crafting.

I understand and appreciate learn by loot system. But it was very poorely thought out...

Crafting is now totally redundant, and spending points in anything other than utility skills (off the land, iron guts etc.) is pointless.

I think the system can be improved but it require some tweaks:

1. Quest rewards should be reduced by half.

2. Trader prices should be increased.

Right now the best thing to do is to do quests since it gives both rewards - from looting and from quest, at least make it harder to get things from trader.

3. Quests should not reset whole POIs, now quests reset everything so people can scavenge same buildings indefinitely, and 2 times at once. Quests should only respawn zombies, close doors and switches, and create chest for fetch quests.

4. Perks should have much higher impact on magazines we find and the better perk the bigger impact. This should be also said im perk discription. Maybe for every 10 magazines we find there is one additional magazine for perks we maxed out.

5. We should be able to craft lvl 6 gear since we already need rng and looting system to learn how to craft and find materials for crafting.

6. To further increase need for perks - each perk lvl decide what items we can find. If we have miner 69er of lvl5 we can find stone and iron tools of lvl 6 and steel and mechanical tools of lvl5, and if we will find lvl6 auger (its possible) it will be broken and will have to be repaired by character that have ability to craft it.

[Balthazod]

2 hours ago, Gr.o.m. said:

Go and max out Daring Adventurer for getting better Trader. I put a single point into it and while I still cannot craft a tier 2 primitive bow I was offered a tier 3 AK47.

So why bothering with that crafting book nonsene, get money and Daring Adventurer and buy yourself a motorcycle.

Even without daring Adventurer the crafting is pointless I have lv 6smg 2 lvl5 AR's lvl5 bow 2 full sets of military armour and so on no point crafting anything except a bike  but no bike and all I have done is trader missions so its should be levelled up to sell me one.  Typical ill thought out dumb idea same as the farming and the water Jars so now they finally have fluid water but we can not use for anything anymore!.

[boban]

1 minute ago, Balthazod said:

no point crafting anything except a bike

 

...and not even that as bike is guaranteed reward after doing couple of quests.

[Balthazod]

1 minute ago, boban said:

 

...and not even that as bike is guaranteed reward after doing couple of quests.

Motorbike I have bicycle

 

[meganoth]

9 hours ago, Archael said:

I started playing a21 with day lenght of 2h, and reducing loot to x0.5

I apend points into miner69er, batons, fortitude with off the land, iron gut and healing factor.

I have found tons of magazines but most was cooking, madicine, repairing tools.

Trader had tons of books and magazines, and magazine bundles are best quest rewards imo.

I just learned lvl5 stone axe, but already had that from poi loot. I also got iron shovel lvl4, i had most gear of lvl 3 without need for crafting.

I understand and appreciate learn by loot system. But it was very poorely thought out...

Crafting is now totally redundant, and spending points in anything other than utility skills (off the land, iron guts etc.) is pointless.

 

So if you use a shotgun, investing in the shotgun perk that will make the shotgun eventually twice as effective (+50% damage + 50% faster fire rate +30% faster reload, shots to legs slow them) is useless? 😧🤔

 

Please explain.

 

9 hours ago, Archael said:

I think the system can be improved but it require some tweaks:

1. Quest rewards should be reduced by half.

2. Trader prices should be increased.

Right now the best thing to do is to do quests since it gives both rewards - from looting and from quest, at least make it harder to get things from trader.

3. Quests should not reset whole POIs, now quests reset everything so people can scavenge same buildings indefinitely, and 2 times at once. Quests should only respawn zombies, close doors and switches, and create chest for fetch quests.

4. Perks should have much higher impact on magazines we find and the better perk the bigger impact.

 

"The better the perk the bigger impact" . That is already how it works.

 

9 hours ago, Archael said:

This should be also said im perk discription. Maybe for every 10 magazines we find there is one additional magazine for perks we maxed out.

5. We should be able to craft lvl 6 gear since we already need rng and looting system to learn how to craft and find materials for crafting.

6. To further increase need for perks - each perk lvl decide what items we can find. If we have miner 69er of lvl5 we can find stone and iron tools of lvl 6 and steel and mechanical tools of lvl5, and if we will find lvl6 auger (its possible) it will be broken and will have to be repaired by character that have ability to craft it.

 

[Archael]

11 hours ago, meganoth said:

21 hours ago, Archael said:

I started playing a21 with day lenght of 2h, and reducing loot to x0.5

I apend points into miner69er, batons, fortitude with off the land, iron gut and healing factor.

I have found tons of magazines but most was cooking, madicine, repairing tools.

Trader had tons of books and magazines, and magazine bundles are best quest rewards imo.

I just learned lvl5 stone axe, but already had that from poi loot. I also got iron shovel lvl4, i had most gear of lvl 3 without need for crafting.

I understand and appreciate learn by loot system. But it was very poorely thought out...

Crafting is now totally redundant, and spending points in anything other than utility skills (off the land, iron guts etc.) is pointless.

 

So if you use a shotgun, investing in the shotgun perk that will make the shotgun eventually twice as effective (+50% damage + 50% faster fire rate +30% faster reload, shots to legs slow them) is useless? 😧🤔

 

Please explain.

Yes, investing in damage is nice. But it seem that You unintentionally agreed with me. You see, there is no other reason to invest in a skill even tho it:
 

 

11 hours ago, meganoth said:

21 hours ago, Archael said:

I think the system can be improved but it require some tweaks:

1. Quest rewards should be reduced by half.

2. Trader prices should be increased.

Right now the best thing to do is to do quests since it gives both rewards - from looting and from quest, at least make it harder to get things from trader.

3. Quests should not reset whole POIs, now quests reset everything so people can scavenge same buildings indefinitely, and 2 times at once. Quests should only respawn zombies, close doors and switches, and create chest for fetch quests.

4. Perks should have much higher impact on magazines we find and the better perk the bigger impact.

Expand  

 

"The better the perk the bigger impact" . That is already how it works.

It already increase the magazines gain... Because crafting is a joke right now, and noone needs crafting skills maybe except cooking and farming. TheONLY reason to increase skill is to gain damage which can be done by buying better gear from trader. Fighting skills can wait. (Tho i havnt seen much of an impact from skills. Im master doctor even tho i spent no points in physician, and i still cant create lvl5 iron tools even tho im master miner).

Another thing:
I have found full iron armor lvl 3 even tho i still cant craft scrap armor lvl5
I bought compound crossbow lvl4 from trader even tho i cant craft lvl4 wooden bow.
When player manage to craft gear lvl 5, they will already have better gear of better tier and/or lvl from scavenging and trading.
AT LEAST make crafting of lvl6 gear possible. Learning how to craft is already RNG dependant. Getting materials to craft is also RNG dependant.
Gear of lvl 6 should be only crafted, not bought not scavenged, but this would be too much to ask.

[meganoth]

11 hours ago, Archael said:

Yes, investing in damage is nice. But it seem that You unintentionally agreed with me. You see, there is no other reason to invest in a skill even tho it:
 

 

It already increase the magazines gain... Because crafting is a joke right now, and noone needs crafting skills maybe except cooking and farming. TheONLY reason to increase skill is to gain damage which can be done by buying better gear from trader. Fighting skills can wait. (Tho i havnt seen much of an impact from skills. Im master doctor even tho i spent no points in physician, and i still cant create lvl5 iron tools even tho im master miner).

 

I can buy better gear at the trader. Sometimes. Sometimes not. Often not the weapon I want. Often it costs a leg and an arm and is still just a small upgrade.

 

At the same time I have those perk points and when I put them in a weapon perk I also get an upgrade, practically free. And the best of it all, it stacks with any improvements from buying better weapons.

 

So no, I don't agree. I invest in important ultility perks AND in weapon perks. 

 

11 hours ago, Archael said:

Another thing:
I have found full iron armor lvl 3 even tho i still cant craft scrap armor lvl5
I bought compound crossbow lvl4 from trader even tho i cant craft lvl4 wooden bow.
When player manage to craft gear lvl 5, they will already have better gear of better tier and/or lvl from scavenging and trading.
AT LEAST make crafting of lvl6 gear possible. Learning how to craft is already RNG dependant. Getting materials to craft is also RNG dependant.
Gear of lvl 6 should be only crafted, not bought not scavenged, but this would be too much to ask.

 

I don't see how crafting q6 gear is changing anything. Sure, it seems a sensible move at least for lower tiers, but it won't help anything with the crafting/looting balance.

 

 

[Archael]

7 hours ago, meganoth said:

So no, I don't agree. I invest in important ultility perks AND in weapon perks. 

No, the point was not the usefullness of weapon perks, that was only the bait. Please read carefully. The point was that crafting is useless. Investing in weapon perks will make weapon crafting magazines drops faster, but You have not mentioned that, only the damage part. Its because crafting is a joke in since some time and its not even worth being mentioned by the mod.

7 hours ago, meganoth said:

I don't see how crafting q6 gear is changing anything. Sure, it seems a sensible move at least for lower tiers, but it won't help anything with the crafting/looting balance

Craftable lvl6 is one step of making more balance. I have posted some more steps but everyone can think about it by their own. More on that - crafting lvl6 gear is a neccesity if we wants the balance... or remove learn by loot and make parts also craftable, but this is not what devs means, so no, balance needs this first step of craftable lvl6.

Im another few hours into the game.
Im able to buy most steel gear of avarage lvl3 and i just learned how to craft lvl1 steel tools... i have no steel tools parts to do that so more scavenging.
Crafting is a joke, is so redundant, and even if we would like to craft something our whole effort will be destroyed when we found lvl6 gear that we already crafted lvl5.
Its nice to find something epic in loot or in trader stock, it really is. But we already have to find magazines and crafting parts, those are also epic loot we should feel rewarded when found.

[meganoth]

4 hours ago, Archael said:

No, the point was not the usefullness of weapon perks, that was only the bait. Please read carefully.

 

Please write carefully. If you claim something it better be true or someone will take you up on it and the discussion drift away from what you really want to say.

 

4 hours ago, Archael said:

 

The point was that crafting is useless. Investing in weapon perks will make weapon crafting magazines drops faster, but You have not mentioned that, only the damage part. Its because crafting is a joke in since some time and its not even worth being mentioned by the mod.

 

They will make magazines drop faster, but what you may not know is that the bonus is quite small, 2% per perk point. It is just designed as a safety net against too much randomness in magazine finds

 

THAT is why I think people should not think about magazines all the time when they perk into something. Look what the perk gives you and only think about magazines if that small bonus makes a difference for you (i.e. if you had bad luck with a magazine type just not dropping it might make sense to help a bit)

 

Crafting was no joke in B313, I could craft a tier1 weapon at quality 5 at day 5 when I only had looted quality 2 stone weapons. It may or may not be a joke now. Shows that it just depends on some further balancing to get it right, or some smaller changes where and how you get magazines.

 

To sum it up: Magazines are important in my view, the magazine find bonus from perks not that much. And drop chance is still getting balanced

 

4 hours ago, Archael said:

Craftable lvl6 is one step of making more balance. I have posted some more steps but everyone can think about it by their own. More on that - crafting lvl6 gear is a neccesity if we wants the balance... or remove learn by loot and make parts also craftable, but this is not what devs means, so no, balance needs this first step of craftable lvl6.

 

4 hours ago, Archael said:

Im another few hours into the game.
Im able to buy most steel gear of avarage lvl3 and i just learned how to craft lvl1 steel tools... i have no steel tools parts to do that so more scavenging.
Crafting is a joke, is so redundant, and even if we would like to craft something our whole effort will be destroyed when we found lvl6 gear that we already crafted lvl5.
Its nice to find something epic in loot or in trader stock, it really is. But we already have to find magazines and crafting parts, those are also epic loot we should feel rewarded when found.

 

When I can find a lvl6 pipe machine gun, but have the option to craft a q3-q5 AK47 I will craft and take the AK with me. The lvl6 pipe machine gun is the joke then.

 

I think the q6 weapons are just the placeholders for the legendary weapons. Until they are in the game this is all just talk about a temporary measure. And the drop chance of q6 tier3 weapons is probably still much too high (at least it was in A20, not idea if they changed that)

 

Edited June 20, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

5 hours ago, meganoth said:

I think the q6 weapons are just the placeholders for the legendary weapons. Until they are in the game this is all just talk about a temporary measure. And the drop chance of q6 tier3 weapons is probably still much too high (at least it was in A20, not idea if they changed that)

 

Everything is a balancing act right now, which is probably why TFP made Q6 gear uncraftable (waiting to see if legendary gear actually occurs).

 

@Archael You can implement T6 crafting just by modding a few lines in the progression file.  The recipes are already setup for T6 crafting (based on increasing material costs for higher quality gear).  However, just because you can do something doesn't necessary mean you should unless you take other things in consideration.  I did incorporate Q6 crafting in my mod, but at the same time, I also reduced loot drops for Q4 and higher, I removed the ability to repair equipment, and jacked up the price modifier for the traders.  So now I, as the player, have the ability to craft Q6 gear, but it is to offset the fact that any Q6 gear I find in loot is already damaged and the traders gear is expensive.

 

And if Legendary gear comes into play, I will then remove the ability to craft Q6 gear to rebalance the game.

5 hours ago, meganoth said:

When I can find a lvl6 pipe machine gun, but have the option to craft a q3-q5 AK47 I will craft and take the AK with me. The lvl6 pipe machine gun is the joke then.

 

Some weapons though you will instantly go to a Q1 when it comes available - thinking of the pistol and double barrel shotgun.  Even if the Q6 pipe pistol or pipe shotgun has higher damage, the versatility of the 9mm pistol and double barrel trump the pipe weapons.