Poll - Which progression system did you prefer?

[Mister Forgash]

1 hour ago, Greymantle said:

How is this any different from having to grind books to learn a new skill, which is a lot more random.

Well, like you said, there's the randomness to it- which in it's current state, I don't think is that bad- I remember when you would feel paralyzed for weeks if you couldn't find a forge schematic, I think this was bad randomness.

Yes, the magazines are random, but it's weighted in such a way that you shouldn't have to worry about not having a forge by day 20+, I'd go so far as to propose that it's a good kind of random if it feels obtainable in between 5 and 10 days, depending on how lucky you are, how you target PoIs, what perks you took, your time management, ability to keep your character healthy enough to stay out hunting for those mags.
How that's different from the other styles? .. Well LBD is predictable- but grindy, and I'd say it's more punishing if you change your mid way through progression and start pushing for a new playstyle
And LBP is even more predictable, but faster, and puts the most control over progression into the direct control of the player.

[armidil0]

Honestly I wish we could get a combo. Craft by looting and learn by doing for tools, weapons, and guns.

[Riamus]

2 hours ago, Greymantle said:

How is this any different from having to grind books to learn a new skill, which is a lot more random.

You don't have to grind for magazines.  You can get them naturally as you loot.  On the other hand, in LBD you must grind your points in order to progress.  Except in something like fighting, most skills do not level up through natural use enough to keep up with your level or the game.  Crafting, for example, means you are crafting dozens or hundreds or items that you would never have crafted if it wasn't required to increase your skill.  That is grinding.  Getting magazines while you're looting as you go about your business is not grinding.  You can grind magazines if you want but that's a choice and not a choice you really have with LBD.

[AtomicUs5000]

8 minutes ago, Riamus said:

You can grind magazines if you want but that's a choice and not a choice you really have with LBD.

 
That is true, for the past alphas where things were very basic. LBD could utilize trader missions and magazines these days. A simple example would be to find a magazine about digging. This opens up the ability to improve digging a little by doing a few treasure hunts with the trader if you choose which in turn levels up that skill. To level up more, read the next level of magazine, then just as example, require the next set of treasure hunts be in the desert, then in the snow, then in the wasteland. After having read each level of magazine and having completed the associated LBD for each, you can then choose a perk related to digging. There are other ways to solve the problem besides having to craft a shovel and dig a million blocks needlessly.

[Riamus]

36 minutes ago, AtomicUs5000 said:

 
That is true, for the past alphas where things were very basic. LBD could utilize trader missions and magazines these days. A simple example would be to find a magazine about digging. This opens up the ability to improve digging a little by doing a few treasure hunts with the trader if you choose which in turn levels up that skill. To level up more, read the next level of magazine, then just as example, require the next set of treasure hunts be in the desert, then in the snow, then in the wasteland. After having read each level of magazine and having completed the associated LBD for each, you can then choose a perk related to digging. There are other ways to solve the problem besides having to craft a shovel and dig a million blocks needlessly.

Right.  A hybrid system can be the better solution, though you'll still have people who don't like the particular hybridization used.  They can't please everyone. 

[boban]

1 hour ago, Riamus said:

Crafting, for example, means you are crafting dozens or hundreds or items that you would never have crafted if it wasn't required to increase your skill.  That is grinding. 

 

People keep bringing it up, but I never had to do it in A16.4 (best alpha for me).

 

1 hour ago, Riamus said:

Getting magazines while you're looting as you go about your business is not grinding.

 

Unless you are more of a builder/miner/hunter than looter-quester. Then it's a grind.

 

(i.e., seems that this version aligns more with your preferred play style, so it doesn't feel like a grind to you. That's great for you. It doesn't align with my preferred playstyle, so it is a grind)

Edited June 17, 2023 by boban (see edit history)

[Greymantle]

3 hours ago, Riamus said:

You don't have to grind for magazines.  You can get them naturally as you loot.  On the other hand, in LBD you must grind your points in order to progress.  Except in something like fighting, most skills do not level up through natural use enough to keep up with your level or the game.  Crafting, for example, means you are crafting dozens or hundreds or items that you would never have crafted if it wasn't required to increase your skill.  That is grinding.  Getting magazines while you're looting as you go about your business is not grinding.  You can grind magazines if you want but that's a choice and not a choice you really have with LBD.

 I see this a lot and knew some that did it. I'm not a min-maxer I played the game sandbox style and my skills came naturally by use. With every system, there is abuse of it, but the old system felt right and worked in this setting. It sure wasn't perfect, as any of them are. It was a lot less in your face like today's magazine system. For me, the new system makes me forget I'm playing a game too much for my liking. (Immersion breaking)

Edited June 17, 2023 by Greymantle (see edit history)

[Jihh]

My main problem with the progression system is that due to the item mods usually a lvl 5-6 item from a previous tier is better than a lvl 1-2 from the newer tier. That problem exists in A20 and A21 and thus both systems are kinda flawed in my opinion. It makes a comparison really difficult. For now I'm not completely happy with any of those progression systems, because of that flaw. But I can imagine that all three of them can be implemented in a good way. While I find the new system interesting and like to experience it more, it currently makes progress too fast for my taste. In A20 I had to sacrifice stuff to get other stuff on a higher level, but in A21 I can just put a single point in every stuff I consider important and then they will level up quite fast. I'll have to see what I prefer, but as I explained, even after more testing a definitive answer will be hard to give.

[Riamus]

13 minutes ago, Jihh said:

My main problem with the progression system is that due to the item mods usually a lvl 5-6 item from a previous tier is better than a lvl 1-2 from the newer tier. 

Yeah, they needed to fix that.  There is no reason to make something of the next tier until quality level 3-4 because it just isn't any improvement.

[Roland]

12 minutes ago, Jihh said:

My main problem with the progression system is that due to the item mods usually a lvl 5-6 item from a previous tier is better than a lvl 1-2 from the newer tier. That problem exists in A20 and A21 and thus both systems are kinda flawed in my opinion. It makes a comparison really difficult. For now I'm not completely happy with any of those progression systems, because of that flaw. But I can imagine that all three of them can be implemented in a good way. While I find the new system interesting and like to experience it more, it currently makes progress too fast for my taste. In A20 I had to sacrifice stuff to get other stuff on a higher level, but in A21 I can just put a single point in every stuff I consider important and then they will level up quite fast. I'll have to see what I prefer, but as I explained, even after more testing a definitive answer will be hard to give.

This problem could be solved by limiting attachments to one slot and removing tier 6 quality from primitive items. Iron should be limited to two slots for all quality levels with tier 6 allowing a third and the steel limited to three slots at all quality levels with tier 6 allowing a fourth. 

[AtomicUs5000]

25 minutes ago, Roland said:

This problem could be solved by limiting attachments to one slot and removing tier 6 quality from primitive items. Iron should be limited to two slots for all quality levels with tier 6 allowing a third and the steel limited to three slots at all quality levels with tier 6 allowing a fourth. 

Makes too much sense.

[Riamus]

43 minutes ago, Roland said:

This problem could be solved by limiting attachments to one slot and removing tier 6 quality from primitive items. Iron should be limited to two slots for all quality levels with tier 6 allowing a third and the steel limited to three slots at all quality levels with tier 6 allowing a fourth. 

Yes, something along those lines would work better, though you'd have just add many company's with that as with jars because people want to use item mods on their stuff right from early game.  So do I, though I'm not sure I'd be against that change.  I'd have to try it.

[Roland]

22 minutes ago, AtomicUs5000 said:

Makes too much sense.

Probably easily modded in too. Definitely easily done as a voluntary limitation to test it.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Roland (see edit history)

[Gr.o.m.]

I really hate the new system, not because it is something new.

But because it takes away descissens from me. I can no longer decide to spend points or money to get a blueprint, I have to wait until some dev has made that descissen for me, that at that point of the game I get it.

It also feels like the new systems prolongs the stoneage.

[pApA^LeGBa]

It is what i expected in MP coop. It´s really hard for people who absolutly don´t like to go looting to keep up. Even though we do bring home magazines, they simply can´t keep up. Wich makes the game uninteresting for them. Bringing the magazines home is quite the challenge in early game aswell due to inventory limitations. We usually are 3 people going out and 2 mining/building/cooking/farming/crafting. Can´t do that anymore. Everyone needs to go looting to keep things even.

 

And even if we would accept that some stay behind a lot in the crafting tier, the parts for weapons/armor/tools are a problem, those seem to be tied to the skill aswell in loot. We have tons of parts for the skills of the people who go looting. And not a single pistol part or steel tool part and one steel armor part on day 21 wich are 3 of the crafting skills the stay at home people have. Plenty of parts for the skills that the players that go looting have. More than we ever need, like 20 steel spear parts for example.

 

I can only hope that Khaine will someday release a standalone of the DF skill system as a mod or someone else a mod that can even out the gap between looting and not looting players with the magazines. Otherwise we need to find a new game for MP Coop.

 

I really like the fact that it slows down progression quite a bit. Not everywhere but the pace is overall slower. It´s not immersive at all, wich sucks, and it kills the Coop for us though.

 

Sad to see the freedom of how you can play this game gone. In SP you have no choice at all. You must go looting constantly to keep up with your gamestage. In SP it´s basically a linear game now. Every playtrough will be the same playstyle: Questing, questing, a little bit of mining and building for the horde and then again questing, questing and more questing. And exactly not having to do this, is what made this game so good.

Edited June 17, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Vaeliorin]

57 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

And even if we would accept that some stay behind a lot in the crafting tier, the parts for weapons/armor/tools are a problem, those seem to be tied to the skill aswell in loot. We have tons of parts for the skills of the people who go looting. And not a single pistol part or steel tool part and one steel armor part on day 21 wich are 3 of the crafting skills the stay at home people have. Plenty of parts for the skills that the players that go looting have. More than we ever need, like 20 steel spear parts for example.

I've put about 40 hours into A21 now, one spear build for 313, and I started over with an Int build for 317, both with maxed out Miner 69'er, and I've found a total of 4 steel tool parts.  I had about 40 steel spear parts in the spear playthrough, and have 60-70 combined robotics/baton parts in my Int playthrough.

 

Pretty sure I've found more motor tool parts than steel tool parts.  Either I'm cursed, or steel tool parts are exceedingly rare.

 

Also, the specialization thing really seems to screw with loot drops.  I'm on Day 9 of my Int playthrough (I play 2 hour days) and I just found a q2 wrench.  I've had a q1 wrench, and I can craft a q2 (but didn't see the point.)  Found probably half a dozen q1/q2 stun batons (all after I'd already made a q5).  Found a q6 Iron Pickaxe in the snow on like Day 3, a q6 Iron Fireaxe in the Desert on Day 8, and everything else is still q3 or lower pipe garbage.

 

It really seems like one will have to specialize in everything to eventually get decent drops for Salvage Tools, Turrets, etc. that aren't directly a part of their desired kit.

 

Edit:  I just checked and I have 52 robotics parts and 39 baton parts (after making a q5 stun baton) in my Int playthrough.  2 steel tool parts, and you need 20 to make a full set of tools (5 each for Pick/Axe/Shovel, 5 for Ratchet.)  I won't ever need to make another baton, and given that a q5 turret costs 50 duct tape, I doubt I'll ever make more than 2 of those.

Edited June 18, 2023 by Vaeliorin (see edit history)

[Vaeliorin]

Accidental Double Post

Edited June 18, 2023 by Vaeliorin (see edit history)

[Riamus]

1 hour ago, Gr.o.m. said:

I really hate the new system, not because it is something new.

But because it takes away descissens from me. I can no longer decide to spend points or money to get a blueprint, I have to wait until some dev has made that descissen for me, that at that point of the game I get it.

It also feels like the new systems prolongs the stoneage.

You can still buy the magazines.  It may not unlock something immediately like a schematic but you also don't have to worry about never finding the schematic.  You'll keep getting magazines.  It just might take longer.

 

It is supposed to prolong the stone age.

 

It is true that the magazines take away the variance between games where you might get a lucky find early game.  I'm not a big fan of that but I can live with it.

[fragtzack]

In a15, the last great iteration of Learn by Doing...

 

Every game started I ended up grinding at the start to raise skills. Streamers were doing the same. Almost everyone was grinding just to raise skills.

 

 I hated it, no thanks.

 

 

[aleos]

On 6/16/2023 at 6:44 AM, AtomicUs5000 said:

Read a magazine to unlock the next stage of learn by doing.
Learn by doing is then a set of challenges such as having to kill x number of y type zombies with a shotgun for increased shotguns skill. Challenges are more difficult within each stage.
Reach the end of these stages to finally choose some special perk.

I agree here. That would be amazing what comes closest to real life but still arcade-ish and fun. First u get theoretical knowledge (reading stuff) and then getting better and better by practising (lbd - excluding crafting or driving skill though, but each weapon fighting at least, scavenging, farming, mining, salvaging and somehow building). Hope undead legacy or wotw will be able to combine both systems.

Not really understand why players don't like skill based progression. Valheim has is and it's well received by the playerbase.

Edited June 18, 2023 by aleos (see edit history)

[Ananais]

My thoughts so far, which I am happy to see many others also stating, is that a hybrid system would be preferable.

 

I have not had as much time to play this week as I would have liked, but so far I really like learn by looting in both my single and multiplayer games. I never was a fan of crafting quality being tied to the weapon skill lines and am finding that, so far, I really like this change.

 

What I would like to see would be a three way hybrid system;

• LBL would remain in place for crafting quality, unlocks, etc. as it is in game now.
• Weapon / harvesting / mining skills would be moved to LBD. This would be specifically for the damage, reload speed and weapon specific skills.
• Remaining skills, buffs, perks, etc. would be skill point based. We could potentially have these skills be more generic and apply to, for example, all melee or ranged, and use the magazine sets for more specific skills, which is already partially the case for them now.

There is also no real reason IMO that we could not have overlap between the systems, though balancing that would probably be nightmarish.

[Mister Forgash]

Prefacing this, I have 0 expectation that TFP will make any changes aside from tweaks on their skill system at this point, but as long as we're talking dreams..

 

I want to voice that I also think that a hybrid system would be ideal for a player like me, but I don't know if that would be good for the overall player base.

The idealized vision I have, which may have holes in it, I'm not a designer, it's not fully fleshed out- would have perks gated behind 3 factors;

Level: [I would limit the player's ability to push straight to their end-build perk/s and 'encourage' them to spread points around a little while they wait.]

 

Knowledge(Of Related Tree): [Effectively, magazines - Something that represents your character had to read things to come up with the idea to improve]

 

LBD [However much doing that needs to be done to make you improve would need playing around with, but the idea is with other factors also determining your ability to progress, you wouldn't feel compelled to spam craft axes when you only need to make 5 to hit next tier, but you still need to read 10 Tools Today mags.]

 

.. I know LBD is cursed, but there's something that feels good when you've punched your 200th zombie, you see your skill tick, and you're just like, "YEAH! - I'm a Martial -Effing- Artist! RAAHH!"

Edited June 18, 2023 by Mister Forgash
Made it look better (see edit history)

[Jihh]

17 hours ago, Roland said:

This problem could be solved by limiting attachments to one slot and removing tier 6 quality from primitive items. Iron should be limited to two slots for all quality levels with tier 6 allowing a third and the steel limited to three slots at all quality levels with tier 6 allowing a fourth. 

I'd love to try that.
In my current playthrough I completely skip iron tools. While they would be upgrades from level 3 (or 4) I would also need to more slots on my belt (pickaxe, axe and hammer instead of just a stone axe). But since I don't spec into mining (aside from a single point so I get more tool magazines) I won't go and farm materials anyway. The amount of materials I get from questing is enough for my early to mid game needs (for now I spend my bloodmoon nights on POI I lightly modify to my needs). Therefor those two save slots are more beneficial than opening doors a bit faster (and most quests don't even need to do that).

Also progression should be slower overall. I crafted a lvl 1 stone axe at the start, found a lvl 2 soon after, changed to a lvl 3 on day two or three and then found a level 6 one before I even found a level 4 or 5. Soon after I got a level 5 iron pickaxe as a quest reward (I've kept it in my storage for now, just in case I need some mining). I wouldn't mind for each tier to take ~14 days.

[Jihh]

16 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

I really like the fact that it slows down progression quite a bit. Not everywhere but the pace is overall slower.

Imho (at lest) in single player it's the contrary. While in A20 spreading your talent points was a waste, because you slightly slowed down your main skills without any noteworthy progress in the other trees, we now can spend single points in all the things we want magazines from and thus speed up the overall progress a lot with just a little slow down of our main tree.

I'm just over level 30 and can craft anything I need in a decent quality. Try being indepent from trader and other players on level 30 in A20 and still being able to craft anything you need.

[Vaeliorin]

49 minutes ago, Jihh said:

Also progression should be slower overall. I crafted a lvl 1 stone axe at the start, found a lvl 2 soon after, changed to a lvl 3 on day two or three and then found a level 6 one before I even found a level 4 or 5. Soon after I got a level 5 iron pickaxe as a quest reward (I've kept it in my storage for now, just in case I need some mining). I wouldn't mind for each tier to take ~14 days.

Personally, I wouldn't care if they slowed down weapon progression, but I would hate them slowing down tool progression.  But I play completely differently than you apparently do.  I spend 8-10 hours each in game day mining or cutting down trees, usually.  If my first A21 game, I'd gathered over 100k clay by day 7.

 

Doing all that with stone tools would suck.  I wouldn't mind if they added in a scrap tool tier like many mods do/did, though, I'd just like a proper pick for mining.