Sleepers even worse now.

[pApA^LeGBa]

@theFlu  Errr, i am confused now. Need to check ingame wich is wich now. But i was talking about the one in your video.

 

Would have more chances if i don´t try this on level 45 aswell i guess 😛. I have nothing in pain tolerance and only iron armor with like one plate mod.

Edited July 23, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[theFlu]

15 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Errr, i am confused now.

Yeh, sorry, my confusion, my last post is an EDIT mess..

 

15 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Would have more chances if i don´t try this on level 45 aswell i guess 😛. I have nothing in pain tolerance and only iron armor with like one plate mod.

For that run I had 1 point in Fort, 1/3 LotL.. not that significant there

 

10/10 Per, 8/10 Agi, all possible gun goodies, full parkour, not much else. Tier reward gave a Military Armor Bonus set earlier, so basically BIS for armor though. I think it wouldn't change That much for just a full Agi, just carry an extra 600 9mm instead of the 300 7.62 ..

[Ray Garraty]

Yeah, take a look at the Navezgane Corrections POI for example, starting at 9:48:

When the player approaches the helipad from the outside, it's completely empty, no sign of zombies.

But as soon as he crosses an invisible line - the doorway - the large horde spawns in...

We used to talk a lot about players cheesing, but I guess here's the devs answer to it.. 😉

Now it's devs cheesing, which feels kinda sad...

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Ray Garraty (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

Here is another nice example of how zombies spawn right in front of the player (4:40)

 

 

[Ray Garraty]

There's also a water pit at the bottom of missile launch silo in Red Mesa. When you walk right past it, it's empty. As soon as you enter the cave next to it, 5 soldiers spawn in it right behind you, out of thin air. I mean, WTF?

Edited July 24, 2023 by Ray Garraty (see edit history)

[ZehMatt]

This spawn system is quite horrible, it should have the zombies spawned but turned inactive so they don't think/tick/update for when the player is too far away, they can be marked active for when player gets closer or by other events such as noise. POI designers shouldn't have to worry about volumes that spawn zombies, just place the zombies and leave it to the engine to decide, its really not that hard to accomplish.

[pApA^LeGBa]

10 hours ago, RipClaw said:

Here is another nice example of how zombies spawn right in front of the player (4:40)

 

 

 

Just watched it from the beginning and it´s even worse than at 4:48 makes it look like. He was right at the exact spot where that group spawned and nothing happened. I tested this, you can stand on the exact spot where they spawn and nothing happens.

 

That´s some next level spawn bug or mistake. If it isn´t a bug or msitake it´s next level BS tbh.

 

If you really need to be so cheap to spawn in zombies behind us, at least do it on a place that we can´t access and where we can´t see it. If there is zombies anywhere where we are, they must spawn in.

 

In case this is intended, i really don´t have high hopes for bandit AI if this is the level of cheapness they need to create a challenge.

Edited July 24, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Euzio]

13 hours ago, RipClaw said:

Here is another nice example of how zombies spawn right in front of the player (4:40)

 

 

Just watched Tem's latest episode as well. And if that's how the new spawn mechanics work, its really just outright cheesing by whoever decided that would be a good mechanic to put in. How could you go through an area that is completely clear only for zombies to miraculously appear in that exact same spot you just passed just because you crossed some invisible line? Its utter BS. It doesn't reward players at all who take the effort to systematically clear sections because you will never know when zombies will start appearing from areas which you "think" you've already cleared. 

And if there are so many trigger spots that wake the zombies up no matter what, stealth is basically useless. As a player myself who enjoys stealth killing as much as possible, this is just sad to see. 

PS: Even for an infested clear, that amount of zombies spawning in the NCJ POI is nuts. 

[zztong]

1 hour ago, Euzio said:

Just watched Tem's latest episode as well. And if that's how the new spawn mechanics work, its really just outright cheesing by whoever decided that would be a good mechanic to put in. How could you go through an area that is completely clear only for zombies to miraculously appear in that exact same spot you just passed just because you crossed some invisible line? Its utter BS. It doesn't reward players at all who take the effort to systematically clear sections because you will never know when zombies will start appearing from areas which you "think" you've already cleared. 

 

I just watched it too.

 

I had been thinking I was late to the game on using Triggers and many of the special Zombie Volumes. They've been around for all of A20. A21 just added more types blocks that could initiate them. But this gives me pause.

 

On one hand, I see designers looking to create challenges and trying to be creative about it. The designer doesn't have anything like a patrolling zombie, so perhaps having zombies appear "off screen" behind you offers a way to simulate that. Alas, the open-world aspect of the game means the designer isn't truly able to "set a scene." A stack of standing zombies in a passive volume with pipe bombs at their feet isn't compelling play. And, as much as a designer can tell themselves there's a story to a POI such as "and then the zombie emerge from the air ducts" any visual clues placed in the area to prop up that story are moot if the player (1) doesn't see them, (2) can't possibly check the air ducts to discover the zombies, and (3) is going to feel "cheesed" when having taken suitable precautions they still had no chance to avoid the ambush.

 

In short, if a wandering horde stumbled into the POI, I'd freak and enjoy it, all thanks to random chance. If I cleared a room from top to bottom, leaving no stone unturned, and then open a door (or push a button) only to have the room I'm in, or the room before it that I just cleared, suddenly be filled with zombies, then I'm likely to feel ripped off.

 

I had been thinking that I might use Triggers to place zombies outside, and surrounding, a POI after a player got to the final loot. My thoughts were that those zombies might be far enough away from the player that the player wouldn't feel "cheesed" and that maybe a stealth player would be able to sneak long enough for the zombies to lose track of the player. But I had a lingering question... what if another player were passing by?

 

1 hour ago, Euzio said:

And if there are so many trigger spots that wake the zombies up no matter what, stealth is basically useless. As a player myself who enjoys stealth killing as much as possible, this is just sad to see. 

 

Yes. I'm happy to see you qualified the declaration. Triggers don't make Stealth useless, but when used in great numbers it devalues stealth.

 

I'd like to think this is still an early experimentation phase with regard to POI design. That we got some new toys and we're anxious to use them, but that the best use of them in terms of quantity and technique remains to be discovered.

Edited July 25, 2023 by zztong (see edit history)

[Laz Man]

I watched part of GNS's video on the county jail and can confirm his POI / map is somehow bugged.  My best guess is he had sleeper volumes from an old map or version of the POI and somehow they persisted into his map. (That POI received several improvement updates during experimental > stable) He was even getting double spawns in some cases which created quite the chaotic experience.

 

In comparison, Glock9's t6 infestation video on the jail was more accurate to the experience of that POI (despite him taking an alternate path to the final loot room).

Edited July 25, 2023 by Laz Man (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

2 hours ago, Laz Man said:

I watched part of GNS's video on the county jail and can confirm his POI / map is somehow bugged.  My best guess is he had sleeper volumes from an old map or version of the POI and somehow they persisted into his map.

Interesting since his experience matches mine. And yes my save was carried over from experimental to stable.

This explains why some have had significantly fewer problems with this POI. I wanted to start over with the A21.1 stable anyway.

 

2 hours ago, Laz Man said:

He was even getting double spawns in some cases which created quite the chaotic experience.

I always thought I was getting these double spawns because the game couldn't spawn all the zombies at once with my settings (32 zombies concurrently).

 

2 hours ago, Laz Man said:

In comparison, Glock9's t6 infestation video on the jail was more accurate to the experience of that POI (despite him taking an alternate path to the final loot room).

That he used this alternative path saved his life. Otherwise, he would have run out of ammunition long before he reached the end room, and the extra first aid didn't hurt either.

 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[theFlu]

2 hours ago, RipClaw said:

That he used this alternative path saved his life. Otherwise, he would have run out of ammunition long before he reached the end room, and the extra first aid didn't hurt either.

I do agree, but the moment he opened his inventory at the start of the video, I went "Oh boy, you're Not prepared" in my head. He did get lucky by taking the "wrong" path, but that just saved him from his own mistake in prep

[Syphon583]

On 7/24/2023 at 6:55 AM, RipClaw said:

Here is another nice example of how zombies spawn right in front of the player (4:40)

 

 

As others have stated (and Laz confirmed) that was CLEARLY bugged. His quest was even marked as complete when he was still fighting off zombies that spawned in the POI. While I agree some of the spawn tactics being used in the new POIs feels cheap, using this video as evidence is disingenuous and unfair.

[RipClaw]

36 minutes ago, Syphon583 said:

As others have stated (and Laz confirmed) that was CLEARLY bugged. His quest was even marked as complete when he was still fighting off zombies that spawned in the POI. While I agree some of the spawn tactics being used in the new POIs feels cheap, using this video as evidence is disingenuous and unfair.

I was referring to the scene whose time I also gave. A group of zombies appear right in front of him. Also, I did not know at the time that there was a bug. Laz Man wrote this after my post, and as a level designer he has information that others do not.

The fact that the quest had already been completed and he was still fighting zombies is not unusual. It has happened to me. Apparently there are groups of zombies in POIs that are optional, such as in side rooms. And he also had a screamer horde.

 

[Volstag]

I 100% agree.  Stealth seems to work fine in T1 -> T3 POIs, but it gets really gamey in T4+.  I can't cite specific POIs, but I've definitely run into these invisible thresholds that spawn-in awake / aggressive zeds.  It was already getting weird with "walled-in zombies" and "zombies in the ceiling", but now this?

[Syphon583]

20 hours ago, RipClaw said:

I was referring to the scene whose time I also gave. A group of zombies appear right in front of him. Also, I did not know at the time that there was a bug. Laz Man wrote this after my post, and as a level designer he has information that others do not.

The fact that the quest had already been completed and he was still fighting zombies is not unusual. It has happened to me. Apparently there are groups of zombies in POIs that are optional, such as in side rooms. And he also had a screamer horde.

 

Yeah, I think I realized after I had posted that your specific post was talking about the cheap spawn tactics, which I do think is just poor design. There were others who piggy backed off your post that I think I meant to respond to.

 

Cheers

[Ray Garraty]

I believe everybody knows lab room with shut blue roll-up door on the 1st floor of the Pop-n-Pills factory administration building. There's a red ladder in the center of it and a tank with a feral wight nearby.

When you break in it through the back concrete wall, the room is completely empty. But guess what happens if you open the blue door? 😁

Edited July 28, 2023 by Ray Garraty (see edit history)

[aamatniekss]

Haven't played anymore since the launch of a21, curious if the triggers have been fixed? Or the zombies still spawn out of thin air by magical triggers?

[Riamus]

4 hours ago, aamatniekss said:

Haven't played anymore since the launch of a21, curious if the triggers have been fixed? Or the zombies still spawn out of thin air by magical triggers?

I wouldn't expect that to change.  They'd have to redo all the sleepers for all of the POIs that use this trigger and I doubt they'll do that.  And although a lot of people have complained, there hasn't been such a huge outcry against it that they'd feel they had no choice but to change it.  We'll just have to get used to it.

[Feycat]

Trigger spawning really ruins the game, imo. It doesn't just ruin stealth (since the things that spawn are awake and mad at you immediately) but it also gets rid of strategy when clearing a poi. Like to pick guys off with a crossbow? Too bad. Worried about making noise in the POI? No problem, they don't exist to hear you. Want to go through the POI in a different direction? Well, you can be in a room that's clear but because you went in the "wrong" way, there aren't zombies and you'll have to go back later on if this is a clear.

 

I liked it when all the sleepers spawned at once and if you kited them too far from the POI they would respawn inside. If you didn't completely clear the building, they would all respawn when you left. If you made too much noise, you'd wake them up through the whole POI. If you were stealthing and you stepped on a pile of paper, you'd wake them up.

[Krougal]

4 hours ago, Riamus said:

I wouldn't expect that to change.  They'd have to redo all the sleepers for all of the POIs that use this trigger and I doubt they'll do that.  And although a lot of people have complained, there hasn't been such a huge outcry against it that they'd feel they had no choice but to change it.  We'll just have to get used to it.

Or we should make a huge outcry, that and the cop vomit.