What was the point of the water change?

[AtomicUs5000]

3 minutes ago, ZehMatt said:

Still not safe to drink in reality. Either way the whole glass jar change is nonsensical in my opinion.

 
It is perfectly fine to drink as long as it does not contain chemicals, heavy metals, radiation etc.
They could easily make water contamination part of the story and thus the need for other means of obtaining potable water.
 
Let's try to separate the jars debate from the method of collection debate because it doesn't get anywhere.

[Survior]

9 hours ago, ZehMatt said:

Either way the whole glass jar change is nonsensical in my opinion.

 

No wall of text, no attitude, just a person with an opinion.

And it's spot on, and thousands of people agree with you.

Huge waste of time for an even poorer system.

 

 

[irootstokes]

On 6/30/2023 at 6:35 AM, Lamblaska said:

Hello Guys.

I honestly think you are merging a lot of topics here. I see balance and difficult stuff, but also immersion and "reality like" points. This is kind of not productive. I would split up this way:

I) Balance and difficult are about tuning and changing parameters. For instance:
-Change the drop rate of something.
-Change the value of purchase.
-Change how long it takes to produce or how much material it needs to do so. 

In this particular case(AKA.: Dew collector) :
If dew collectors are too OP (as in, provide too much water in too quickly). You can basically make them hard to be acquired (considering the early, mid and late game). Or make them provide less water per time. 

II) Change immersion and reality like. For instance:
-Add a new game mechanic for something.

-Change/Remove a mechanic that doesn't fulfill it's purpose.
-Encourage or not something in game with rewards or in place mechanics. 

In this particular case(AKA.: Dew collectors):
If they are not immersive enough. You could add a game mechanic that would fluctuate production according to weather. This would make them less predictable and reliable. Or a feature that the filter has a lifespan (like real filters do). As they are used, they become less and less effective, taking more time to fill up the dew up to the point it provides only 1 murky water a day. You could add the possibility of craft a purifier (using sand + coal + silver + nitrate). This would add an upkeep effort to dew collectors in mid to late game. 


 

Now... a personal feedback regarding the new water mechanic:

Before:
-Honestly. Water before was irrelevant. It was easy and not immersive at the same time. You would start with a single water(with a glass) and you would basically need only a lake or a pool and a campfire to be self sufficient about water. Even with glasses and other stuff, you would basically accumulate them so easily and so quickly. And that make a lot of sense.
-Think about it, Plastic and glass bottles are literally everywhere around us and inside the game too. There are trash bins, trash bags, backpacks all around the place. The same didn't happened with most of the materials and craft in game. How did you carry sand, wood, food (yeah, no plates there), glue, and on and on. 

Now:
-Cooking pot is in deed a priority and at the same time, something once you acquire some you no longer need to worry about. That makes sense as a balance perspective because you have to focus on searching it. And also from a immersion perspective since once you have acquired a few (in house kitchens) you no longer need to worry about.
-Dew collectors are much more coherent than grabbing water around and boil it. Boil water is not as the same as filter it. Imagine how much dirty, junk, and diseases would be in a pool. Or in a river that zombies swim inside. From a immersion perspective, do make a lot of sense IMO. In a balance perspective, I still think it´s better than before. But still require improvement (a lot). 
-Not worry about containers such as glasses do make a lot of sense to me. From a balance and difficult perspective looks like something extremely complex to manage variables. For a immersion that would not be felt, since it would be handling like just another craft component. This overthinking in containers would make the game less fun and would require a lot of effort to feel really immersive. This effort is better applied elsewhere. 
-I do not like the dew collector generating heat. I do understand it is a balance thing. But not a good one IMO. 

Here are a list of few suggestions for the current water system: 
1) Make dew collectors be affected by biomes and weather. This would make them less reliable and less predictable. [This is a high effort one and the last one IMO]
2) Remove Dew collector heat since they are the most passive thing possible. It's not immersive. [Low effort]
3) Use a wood burn like mechanic. Instead of wood, gas or paper. It would require water purifiers [Medium effort I think, its a already in place mechanic but it would require to be clone it and change it).
4) Water purifiers requires, as a "expendable material" that would "burn" in collector dews to be craftable. Stone, Sand, plastic, nitrate and maybe even silver could be a thing. [Low effort].
5) Add the water purifier recipe somewhere to be learn (maybe workstations, or one of those special books of survival).  [Low effort] 
6) Add air purifier to be scrapped form water filters around the map. [Low effort]


With this suggestions. I think it would be a immersive thing but also would require a upkeep effort. It would not only be build and go there once or twice a day to collect. 7dtd in mid to late game is also a time management challenge, having an upkeep would make it a tradeoff to have a lot of them around. 

What you think about these suggestions? 

Here's my response to your suggestions for the current water system in 7 Days to Die:

1. Making dew collectors affected by biomes and weather: This could indeed add an extra layer of complexity and make dew collectors less predictable. It would make players adapt to different environments and climates, which could be an interesting challenge. However, as you mentioned, this would require significant effort to implement and balance properly.

2. Removing the heat generated by dew collectors: I understand your point about dew collectors being passive and not generating heat. Removing the heat generation would make them more realistic in that regard. This suggestion seems like a low-effort change that could improve the immersion without affecting gameplay balance significantly.

3. Using a wood burn-like mechanic for water purifiers: This suggestion introduces a new mechanic for water purification, and it could add depth to the system. Requiring additional resources like gas or paper as fuel for purifiers would add an upkeep element and make players actively manage their water purification process. It may require some cloning and modification of the existing mechanic but seems like a medium-effort change that could be worthwhile.

4. Requiring expendable materials for water purifier crafting: Introducing expendable materials that burn in the dew collectors could add another layer of resource management. It would provide a trade-off for having multiple dew collectors, as players would need to gather or craft these materials to keep the collectors running. This suggestion appears to be a low-effort change that could enhance gameplay.

5. Adding the water purifier recipe to be learned: Making the water purifier recipe discoverable through specific means, such as finding it in workstations or special books of survival, adds a sense of progression and reward for players. It could motivate them to explore and find these recipes, contributing to the overall experience. This suggestion seems like a low-effort change that adds depth to the game.

6. Allowing water purifiers to be scrapped from water filters: Allowing players to dismantle water filters found in the game world to obtain water purifiers is a reasonable suggestion. It provides an additional method for obtaining purifiers, and it encourages players to scavenge and explore the environment more thoroughly. This suggestion also appears to be a low-effort change.

Overall, I think your suggestions have merit and could improve the water system in 7 Days to Die. They provide a good balance between immersion and gameplay mechanics, adding depth and challenge to the system without making it overly complex. The changes you proposed would require varying levels of effort to implement, but they seem feasible and could enhance the overall player experience.

[raketemensch]

I personally would love to have a still for distilling water to make it drinkable or for making booze. I can grow corn, I can get water, I can boil things, so just let me ferment the corn first!

 

But seriously, distilling water would be fun.

 

Also, use corn for whiskey, looted jars of molasses for rum and potatoes for vodka. Maybe work honey in for bonus effects.

Edited July 4, 2023 by raketemensch (see edit history)

[YourMirror]

14 hours ago, Survior said:

 

and thousands of people agree with you

 

 

Whaaaaahahahahahaha

hahahaha

hahaha

 

Adorable!

[Roland]

22 hours ago, Survior said:

 

No wall of text, no attitude, just a person with an opinion.

And it's spot on, and thousands of people agree with you.

Huge waste of time for an even poorer system.

 

 

 

[ScubaSteve]

OMG this new water system is painful! I'm not saying I'm against the change. They just need to tweak the settings a bit. I'm playing with 2 buddies. They cleared multiple houses and are only finding 3-5 bottles of murky water per house! We're all dying of thirst and because of that we can't eat because that (charred meat) reduces our water level even more and our stamina is completely sapped, so we can't fight well in close quarters! It's a painful, brutal crawl! I'm out there hunting racking up 150+ meat and at the same time they're coming back with maaaybe 5 jars of murky water to split among the 3 of us. This is broken! I watched a few streamer review videos before a21 dropped and they made it sound like it wasn't going to be an issue because bottles of murky water were abundant in houses, but that's very much not true! I'm not opposed to losing empty jars but holy @%$#! I'm sure it gets better, but this is a painful introduction to a new a21 game. I'm going to see about adding back in the empty jars when you consume a drink so we can survive at least! Possibly increase the loot level for drinkJarRiverWater too! This is stupid. I'm not saying to throw the baby out with the bath water, just needs to be tweaked.

 

I've read the other arguments in this thread on it being more realistic or more in line with other liquid containers. I'm sorry, but arguments for this being more accurate are just incorrect. In reality, I'd be able to find a pot to boil the water in and and some kind of container, setup a base near a river or lake and boil as much water as I need to. I get that jars were extra inventory management. If anything, you should be able to find a bucket easily and then management would be around that bucket being full or empty. You just cook the water from the bucket in the pot over the fire and get water jars from that or drink straight from the pot over the fire.

Edited July 7, 2023 by ScubaSteve (see edit history)

[ZehMatt]

On 7/5/2023 at 4:45 AM, Roland said:

 

 

The feedback of users should be treated as a valuable input and not something to mock, you may disagree with what is being said but this is not the way to go about it, in my honest opinion.

[Riamus]

On 7/7/2023 at 11:53 AM, ScubaSteve said:

OMG this new water system is painful! I'm not saying I'm against the change. They just need to tweak the settings a bit. I'm playing with 2 buddies. They cleared multiple houses and are only finding 3-5 bottles of murky water per house! We're all dying of thirst and because of that we can't eat because that (charred meat) reduces our water level even more and our stamina is completely sapped, so we can't fight well in close quarters! It's a painful, brutal crawl! I'm out there hunting racking up 150+ meat and at the same time they're coming back with maaaybe 5 jars of murky water to split among the 3 of us. This is broken! I watched a few streamer review videos before a21 dropped and they made it sound like it wasn't going to be an issue because bottles of murky water were abundant in houses, but that's very much not true! I'm not opposed to losing empty jars but holy @%$#! I'm sure it gets better, but this is a painful introduction to a new a21 game. I'm going to see about adding back in the empty jars when you consume a drink so we can survive at least! Possibly increase the loot level for drinkJarRiverWater too! This is stupid. I'm not saying to throw the baby out with the bath water, just needs to be tweaked.

 

I've read the other arguments in this thread on it being more realistic or more in line with other liquid containers. I'm sorry, but arguments for this being more accurate are just incorrect. In reality, I'd be able to find a pot to boil the water in and and some kind of container, setup a base near a river or lake and boil as much water as I need to. I get that jars were extra inventory management. If anything, you should be able to find a bucket easily and then management would be around that bucket being full or empty. You just cook the water from the bucket in the pot over the fire and get water jars from that or drink straight from the pot over the fire.

Once you are used to the change, it really isn't difficult to have enough water to drink.  I normally have so much water or other drinks by the second or third day that it isn't an issue.  But until you get used to it, it can feel like a challenge.  Tier 1 houses are easy to loot and if you're not looting many because you're constantly running back and forth for quests, then take a day to just loot houses and you'll have more than necessary after just a day.  At least enough to last you a few days.  It doesn't take long to unlock grilled meat, which saves you a lot of water and a grill (the pot as well) is available from the trader if you don't want to find one.  You should be able to make the grilled meat by the end of day 1 or day 2 at the latest and I can get by with just the starter water for all of day 1 even if I found nothing else.  If you are really in a bind, the trader sells food and drink and so do the vending machines.  Considering you can drink from a water source, even if it damages you and gives you a chance of dysentery, you should never die of thirst.  Get the filter by the end of day 1 just by doing a few quests and you'll start making water.  Keep questing to get more filters and you'll have enough dew collectors for 3 people within a few days.

 

In the end, it's just a matter of learning the new system and then it's no challenge at all.  The only real difficulty is for new players (or those new to A21's changes) and when you start needing a lot of duct tape if you're going to be doing a lot of crafting.  And by then, you should be able to set up enough dew collectors to handle it.  2 players can get by with 2-3 dew collectors usually.  Add 1-2 for 3 players.  If you craft a ton, you might want more, of course.  But for hydration, you should have no real issues even without dew collectors.  Don't forget that if you turn the water into tea, it'll last a lot longer.

[Roland]

1 hour ago, ZehMatt said:

 

The feedback of users should be treated as a valuable input and not something to mock, you may disagree with what is being said but this is not the way to go about it, in my honest opinion.

It can be mocked a little bit and that’s all this is and much tamer than a lot of the mocking of the devs and this change by some who are against it. One funny meme doesn’t constitute not treating feedback as valuable. Sorry if the joke offended. 

[vom]

Dying of thirst, not sure what to do. Doesn't seem to be any water on this map.

[Riamus]

16 minutes ago, vom said:

Dying of thirst, not sure what to do. Doesn't seem to be any water on this map.

Loot some houses and you will find plenty of murky water.  Boil it in a pot.  You may find one in one of the houses, but if you don't, just buy one from the trader.  When you can, start making tea to drink instead of regular water as it lasts longer.  Lol for a forge ahead magazine so you can build a dew collector and that will get you 3 water per day.  You can buy the filter for it from the trader.

 

If you want to drink from a water source even with the health risk, there is often water in the ditches beside roads in towns even if you don't see any ponds, lakes, or rivers.

 

Murky water can be found easily in toilets, water dispensers, and soda fountains.  You can also often find it other containers like cupboards or Shamway crates.

 

Avoid eating food that reduces water, like baked potatoes and corn on the cob.

[warmer]

Toilets are you best friend. Lots have murky water you can boil with a pot. You can also drink water with your hands, but you will risk disentary.

[vom]

2 minutes ago, Riamus said:

Lol for a forge ahead magazine so you can build a dew collector

 

I'm not going to live that long. I'm dying of thirst already.

 

Spent 3 days looking for a river, but no luck.

Edited July 19, 2023 by vom (see edit history)

[4sheetzngeegles]

Unless its a custom map. There are some pois that are ponds, in cities lok to ditches.
There are not so many water towers as a source anymore. average water price is 120.
most basic loot in a single run can help you cover that.

 

progression

day 1
The new process is, get enough water for a single day's activities, earn 1500 dukes to buy a
dew collector.

 

The trader has, at 20% fill rate need 5 equals full bar.

Forage for books and resources especially in kitchens in residences, you don't have to kill everything
initially, just enough to survive, hunt chickens more than rabbits, because you get at least 20 feathers
to hunt more.

 

days 2-3 repeat getting water 600 dukes, use excess loot to get 1500, buy a dew collector filter,
use your stone axe pound garbage in houses and parcel boxes to get polymer. Its easy once you start,

 

    dew collector recipe
    1 Water Filter.
    100 Scrap Polymers.
    4 Short Iron Pipes.
    4 Duct Tape.
    
by day four drink sparingly, collectors make 3 per in game day, since you need 5, build 2.
collect golden seal, Chrysanthemum, and go to the edge of desert and chop yucca. By now with the book system
you should have these recipes read. If you don't have a pot, and forge is unlocked, get resources and make a pot.
 
cook these, and check toilets, for murky water. by day 6 if you wait each day patiently you should have, 6 water
to use for enhanced hydration.

 

some achieve it faster, some slower. either way this would be a good primer for basic setup.  also if its your
first time playing set you days initially to 120 min to allow for choices, you can always change it as you become
accustomed to the game.

 

Golden seal tea, and vitamins will allow you to initially drink murky water, and survive.

hope it helps
4SheetZ

[Riamus]

21 minutes ago, vom said:

 

I'm not going to live that long. I'm dying of thirst already.

 

Spent 3 days looking for a river, but no luck.

You may just have to accept a death in that case and adjust what you do to get water.  Walking around looking for a river wastes a lot of water (and food), especially if you run.  And rivers aren't all that common on most maps, so the chance of finding one while walking around is very low.  Houses are really the best option for water.

 

Unless you are out completely in the middle of nowhere, find a house and check the toilets and cupboards and you should find at least one murky water to hold you over until you can get more.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)

[ShadeColdfang]

48 minutes ago, vom said:

Dying of thirst, not sure what to do. Doesn't seem to be any water on this map.

i have a nice Tip... Vitamins and a puddle of water are ur early game best friends.
Cuz Vitamins negate 100% desease debuffs, so u can drink from the pond. but watch out u can still die cuz Murky water takes away health with every chug. so only resort to drinking from the Dirt when u are in dire need. but cooking pots are fairly common in Shamway stores or in restaurants or places with big Kitchens. so cooking water early game should be a quick thing to reach and if u are Reeeeeaaaally Lucky early game and find a helmet water filter mod... u can drink entire ponds without any negative side effects. and on the side another tip... Waterbucket, place the water, drink from the placed water if u ate Vitamins or have the water filter, pick the water back up, Infinite Water for the pocket. XD

[vom]

25 minutes ago, 4sheetzngeegles said:

average water price is 120.

Ok, so you are advising to buy water from the trader...

 

Is there anybody here who doesn't depend on the trader?

[ShadeColdfang]

1 minute ago, vom said:

Ok, so you are advising to buy water from the trader...

 

Is there anybody here who doesn't depend on the trader?

Me... i will empty your Pond next door and make the trader poor

[vom]

4 minutes ago, ShadeColdfang said:

your Pond next door

Ok, there's no pond.

 

Even if there was, how can you put the water in a bottle?

Is it even possible to survive anymore without depending on the trader?

[4sheetzngeegles]

No, i was giving options in the first days because of the way the survival aspect has been revamped.

Prior alphas you could hit the ground running and have up to 30 in a days, by looting empty jars and

finding a single water source.

 

I personally accidentally drank by hand RNG and Murphy kicked in and died. SO I adapted and got a

days worth of water, so I could loot, killed enough to add points for what i needed and sold any and

everything , to get a filter, 1 filter only helped me for 3/5 of a day. so i knew i needed 2 but found no

pot, had forgotten about making one because i never used the forge.  Was reminded in a post and

made a pot after that the added hydration bonus from yucca and tea, made it easier for basic survival.

 

This is the first time i actually used a trader for survival,  I always played by you keep what you kill or

die.

 

[Kam R.]

5 minutes ago, vom said:

Ok, there's no pond.

 

Even if there was, how can you put the water in a bottle?

Is it even possible to survive anymore without depending on the trader?

It is. My first SP run was nomad. No base. Just keep movin' and lootin'. Have a pot with you, reserve one slot for murky water, you'll survive fine. It's actually fun to play this way, but you obviously cut out a big portion of the game.

[4sheetzngeegles]

yes it is possible but you would have to find a helmet, and a water purifier mod, I found mine looting the highschool,

trippy experience.

[Riamus]

22 minutes ago, vom said:

Ok, there's no pond.

 

Even if there was, how can you put the water in a bottle?

Is it even possible to survive anymore without depending on the trader?

You cannot fill bottles with water anymore.  You have to loot it out use a dew collector.  I will rarely, if ever, but water from a trader or vending machine but it is an option if needed.

 

As I've said, loot houses and you can find enough water.  You can also loot any of the restaurants, which will almost always have a coffee machine, soda machine, and multiple toilets that can all have water or drinks, not to mention all the cupboards in restaurants that can also have things to drink. 

 

I have zero trouble finding water through looting.  You will need dew collectors if you plan on creating a lot since most recipes now use a ton of duct tape, but for hydration and cooking, loot is plenty.

 

If you don't want to loot, you'll need dew collectors.

 

The easy mode of filling hundreds of jars with water and never thinking about water again are gone (at least without a mod).  Water is still easy but it does take more effort than in the past.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)

[vom]

1 minute ago, Riamus said:

I have zero trouble finding water through looting. 

I'm sure if you make zombies easy to kill, you can easily loot and survive.

If you were playing against more difficult zombies, you would really question whether the survival aspect of the game is possible.

I could make the zombies easier to kill, but then it's too cartoony and not a game worth playing.

It's apparently no longer possible to survive in the wilderness, you have to get a dew collector?

That just killed an entire playstyle.