What was the point of the water change?

[Krougal]

12 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Which is essentially a "this is not realistic" argument. Thus it is strange that you seem to describe the other camp you are arguing against as the realists.

 

So I guess that wasn't a good term. We all expect a certain amount of realism.  A good sci-fi story gets 1 crazy concept. For this game it's zombies and then after that we expect everything to conform to realism.

 

It then is more like "anyone driving slower than you is an idiot and anyone trying to drive faster than you is a maniac" when you're on the highway (maybe that doesn't happen on the Autobahn but it's a thing on the Interstate).

 

So I pump the brakes at not being able to use the river that I built my base next to, because I thought just like the real world, that would be a smart thing to do, because my people have been doing it for thousands of years. Some are going to also insist on you needing to provide some kind of container, although I am fine doing the handwave at it, because the pimps want to do away with empty containers. Others might consider it too much trouble to have to purify the water after collecting it, and want to handwave that away too. Personally I don't care either way about that. I am fine with boiling the water since it is a thing, otoh glue & stews, it could just be assumed that as part of the process of making these things, we boil the water and so don't need to do it twice.

 

The thing about water is it is kinda an all or nothing thing since no water == no life. It is either there and fairly abundant (because simple boiling makes water safe) and we don't overly concern ourselves with it, or it is not and obtaining it becomes a central theme to the story. There really isn't a lot of in between to work with.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Krougal (see edit history)

[The_Great_Sephiroth]

I am surprised this discussion is still happening. That said, people keep mentioning boiling water. Has anybody here, in real life, done this? I have. I grew up in the wilderness in an era before we had The Internet. Boiling water may make it safe in an emergency, but the water is NASTY. Distilling makes clear, safe water. Filtering and boiling make it clear. If you simply boil water that has other things in it, those things remain, even if neutralized. Games always get this wrong. Heck, they had to slap a warning on "The Long Dark" stating that it was a game and not a replacement for real survival training due to facts like this.

 

As such, the dew collectors produce FAR safer water. As for the jars, I could take or leave them. Played with them for years and while I miss them, it's one less thing to scavenge and worry about.

[Krougal]

25 minutes ago, The_Great_Sephiroth said:

I am surprised this discussion is still happening. That said, people keep mentioning boiling water. Has anybody here, in real life, done this? I have. I grew up in the wilderness in an era before we had The Internet. Boiling water may make it safe in an emergency, but the water is NASTY. Distilling makes clear, safe water. Filtering and boiling make it clear. If you simply boil water that has other things in it, those things remain, even if neutralized. Games always get this wrong. Heck, they had to slap a warning on "The Long Dark" stating that it was a game and not a replacement for real survival training due to facts like this.

 

As such, the dew collectors produce FAR safer water. As for the jars, I could take or leave them. Played with them for years and while I miss them, it's one less thing to scavenge and worry about.

That's why we have booze!

[Roland]

19 hours ago, Krougal said:

trying to make water scarce

 

2 hours ago, zztong said:

long-term scarcity.

 

I think people have a false assumption going that TFP for some reason wants players to have to worry about water for their entire playthrough and that if a system of obtaining and stockpiling water somehow solves the player's water issue, then that system is broken.

 

Water survival should get solved during the course of the game and it shouldn't be something the player must struggle with after a certain amount of time spent working to achieve self-reliance in that area.

 

The problem of an infinite water source and infinitely lasting reusable jars is that the snowball effect of that system means that water survival is solved on day one, with zero struggle or progression. There is zero expense to that system or any kind of diminishing returns so the snowball rockets down that hill becoming an avalanche in mere moments.

 

The current system, depending on how you play, can take a couple of days to a full week before you have your water source established and reach the point where the struggle is gone. In either case, it does require the player to focus on solving the issue at the opportunity cost of doing other early-game tasks which is an aspect of the new system that I greatly appreciate.

 

How long SHOULD the player need to struggle with water? I don't know. In my games it all gets solved sometime within the first week of game time. Some playthroughs I end up needing to drink some murky water and others I never do. But in every case, the objective to solve my water issue is a real objective that I pursue and sink time into accomplishing.

 

When I went back to play A20 and more recently when I tried the mod District Zero, it felt akin to having the creative menu on for water as the stack of empty jars just automatically built up in my inventory without any conscious effort. It was just free and didn't steal my focus from other objectives at all. District Zero's jars are more scarce than A20 but still, once I found a jar it was mine forever and the stack would've grown if I hadn't decided to just throw away all empty jars whenever I noticed them in my inventory.

 

I'm certain TFP could iterate the current system to something that allowed for some harvesting of water from water sources in some limited way to prevent the snowball effect that reusable empty jars created and maybe they will if there's time before the end. If they do, I wouldn't necessarily be opposed.

 

But whatever system they land on it will also have the goal of creating a short-term objective to solving the water issue. There is no search for a system that creates a long-term or whole playthrough struggle for water survival. It is meant to be solved in the early game. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Roland (see edit history)

[Rotor]

29 minutes ago, Krougal said:

That's why we have booze!

 

AND!  Coffee, tea, etc.

 

So, I always use the trader as an anti RNG mechanic, depending on how stubborn I want to be.  I dont quest.  Currently on my third play through of A21, about to do a day 35 horde.  I have yet to build a single dew collector.  I mean, I usually buy that single elusive bottle of acid, to build my second tire for a bike.  For whatever reason the RnG only ones to give me one.  Or may buy the tire itself.  The filter for the dew collector irks me.  There is no RnG, best I can tell from reading, there is no chance heh.

 

There have been a game day or two where I got down to one percent, before I could get to the trader and sell the scrap stuff and go to vending machine and buy liquids.

 

I have a pot, but the murky water is not a dime a dozen like everyone keeps pointing out.  Atleast it doesnt feel that way to me, but meh.  I try to loot a PoI a day, but I like to walk around and see what is out there. 

 

I dont have a bike yet either.  The game is much slower now.  I cant run everywhere like I did before.  So, in that regard, the game has changed for me.

 

I could care less about jars,....or the infinite amount of empty gas cans. 

 

I think the bucket and waiting until such a time where you can craft one, would be a better gate than the trader.

[Jost Amman]

19 minutes ago, Rotor said:

I have a pot, but the murky water is not a dime a dozen like everyone keeps pointing out.  Atleast it doesnt feel that way to me, but meh.  I try to loot a PoI a day, but I like to walk around and see what is out there. 

It doesn't feel like water is easy early game because you're not a min-maxer or level-rusher like some players who comment here.

I understand perfectly what you mean, and I've got the same impression with the new water mechanics.

 

Anyway, most people can't stand the fact they can't get water from lakes, ponds and rivers, that's the main complaint I read on the forums.

 

My idea, which would work perfectly, is to allow them to get murky water from sources, but make your stored water "spoil away" (read evaporate) in a reasonably short time.

 

That way, people won't complain anymore about not being able to use water sources, BUT, if they want to move away from rivers and ponds, they'll better rely on the dew collectors as a source. It's a win-win in my opinion. TFP wouldn't even need to roll back on the current mechanics to add that.

 

The only downside would be, that all the checks the game would need to do, to have water evaporate in your storage, could take away a some FPS from everything.

I'm not a programmer, so, who knows?  ( @faatal? )

[zztong]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

Water survival should get solved during the course of the game and it shouldn't be something the player must struggle with after a certain amount of time spent working to achieve self-reliance in that area.

 

The problem of an infinite water source and infinitely lasting reusable jars is that the snowball effect of that system means that water survival is solved on day one, with zero struggle or progression.

 

Okay, so I'm back to where I was.

 

There are no TFP long-term goals for water scarcity, so infinite water is irrelevant. Duct tape doesn't matter, or any other recipe, if I understand you correctly.

 

In Vanilla, water scarcity is solved on day 2-3 with maybe around 1 day of "drink murky water temptation" because the game starts you with 2 fresh water.

 

In my Modded game, water scarcity is solved day 1-2 with around 1 day of "drink murky water temptation" because you don't start with any water.

 

Neither presents more than a day of struggle or progression, unless you're a new player and need time to figure out recipes and understand the game. Water scarcity really puts them into an interesting bind.

 

But I'm into survival, so I prioritize food and water. You suggest it takes a week to solve water scarcity, so you're priorities are elsewhere. You must not buy a cooking pot before all else. I assume we're both doing quests, as that's how I'd find/afford a cooking pot. Quests are dropping murky water, which I'll be purifying. Are you just drinking murky water for a week until you get a bicycle, or something? I think we're playing the same length days (60 minutes).

 

Also, this infinite murky water still commits you to spending time purifying it plus the fuel and the resulting heat. By comparison, the Dew Collectors represent only an initial challenge to afford a filter and a source of heat. You effectively get infinite water once you have some number of Dew Collectors. For me, that number was around 3-4.

 

Honestly, I see very little difference.

 

For Dew Collectors, I harvest them daily (early game) or when I harvest the farm (late game) and put it in inventory (base or personal). They're constantly generating heat, which I like, but rarely get to enjoy because I don't tend to hang out at base.

 

For Murky Lake water, I harvest 10 water when I need it. Bring it back and put it on the camp fire with 6 wood. It will be waiting on me later. They're only generating heat when the fire is burning, which is something like 5 minutes.

 

This is why it doesn't matter to me if I play Vanilla or with Mods. The end effect is the same. It's just a matter of how you go about it in-game. The modded approach makes more sense to me, but the fun is the same.

Edited September 24, 2023 by zztong (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

1 hour ago, zztong said:

You effectively get infinite water once you have some number of Dew Collectors. For me, that number was around 3-4.

I still think and hope that TFP will be balancing the new water scarcity more in then next A21.x iterations.

In my opinion, traders are again, to this day, the most unbalancing factor for everything (not only the water mechanics).

 

Filters for dew collectors, cooking pots, and drinks, are too easily acquired from the trader, making the water struggle optionally irrelevant.

But changing and fine-tuning that, shouldn't be that difficult, if they put, for example, QA on it with dozens of restarts playing only the first week.

 

Heck, they could even create a special quest type just to get a water filter, and remove it completely from the shop list.

Want more water filters? Need to complete more WF jobs and find them in special POIs.

The Water Facility for example, would be the perfect location to place a water filter that you have to scavenge.

[Rotor]

8 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

Heck, they could even create a special quest type just to get a water filter, and remove it completely from the shop list.

 

 

NOOOOOooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

If that happens, they better make it where I can get wat with a bucket :).

 

Or

 

https://www.h2odistributors.com/info/how-to-make-a-water-filter/

Edited September 24, 2023 by Rotor (see edit history)

[Krougal]

3 hours ago, Roland said:

 

 

I think people have a false assumption going that TFP for some reason wants players to have to worry about water for their entire playthrough and that if a system of obtaining and stockpiling water somehow solves the player's water issue, then that system is broken.

 

Water survival should get solved during the course of the game and it shouldn't be something the player must struggle with after a certain amount of time spent working to achieve self-reliance in that area.

 

The problem of an infinite water source and infinitely lasting reusable jars is that the snowball effect of that system means that water survival is solved on day one, with zero struggle or progression. There is zero expense to that system or any kind of diminishing returns so the snowball rockets down that hill becoming an avalanche in mere moments.

 

The current system, depending on how you play, can take a couple of days to a full week before you have your water source established and reach the point where the struggle is gone. In either case, it does require the player to focus on solving the issue at the opportunity cost of doing other early-game tasks which is an aspect of the new system that I greatly appreciate.

 

How long SHOULD the player need to struggle with water? I don't know. In my games it all gets solved sometime within the first week of game time. Some playthroughs I end up needing to drink some murky water and others I never do. But in every case, the objective to solve my water issue is a real objective that I pursue and sink time into accomplishing.

 

When I went back to play A20 and more recently when I tried the mod District Zero, it felt akin to having the creative menu on for water as the stack of empty jars just automatically built up in my inventory without any conscious effort. It was just free and didn't steal my focus from other objectives at all. District Zero's jars are more scarce than A20 but still, once I found a jar it was mine forever and the stack would've grown if I hadn't decided to just throw away all empty jars whenever I noticed them in my inventory.

 

I'm certain TFP could iterate the current system to something that allowed for some harvesting of water from water sources in some limited way to prevent the snowball effect that reusable empty jars created and maybe they will if there's time before the end. If they do, I wouldn't necessarily be opposed.

 

But whatever system they land on it will also have the goal of creating a short-term objective to solving the water issue. There is no search for a system that creates a long-term or whole playthrough struggle for water survival. It is meant to be solved in the early game. 

I feel like you and Meganoth have fed that assumption. I am not interested in getting into a @%$#ing match over it and I'm not going to go back and cite posts where he said/she said, but right or wrong, that is where I got that assumption.

 

@zztong beat me to a pretty solid explanation again, so I won't rehash it all.

 

My own point in my last post still stands. It is not a struggle, as I iterated what was done is ineffective in making it a struggle, so it is good if you say that is not what TFP intended, because it doesn't work.

 

I agree that water more or less occupies my time about the right amount for gameplay (which comes above all else). It is not my over-riding concern, but it is a concern. The water pot is a first day priority, even if I find a helmet water purifier in my first POI. I am going to need glue and I am not going to sit next to the water source all day. I feel I average around 10 jars of murky water per POI, which is plenty to keep hydrated with a filter, but I'd rather drink a more efficient beverage and have more water for glue & stew.

 

So if we could magically scoop jars of murky water out of a pond, boil snow (something else we used to be able to do that I feel we should still be able to do) or even get buckets full of water and boil them, I don't feel like it would really change any of the above. The only difference it would make to my playstyle would be that I probably would just drink murky water all the time once I got a purifier. The water purifier might be OP, but it is hardly game-breaking. I would not be heartbroken if it were removed. It would make goldenrod tea actually useful, since one could drink a bunch of murky water to load up and then cure their dysentery.

 

I would probably make more glue as well as foods that require water, but once again, regardless there still comes a point where I stop making glue and water is not the bottleneck on cooking so it doesn't make a lot of difference.

 

So why am I making a big deal out of something that doesn't make a lot of difference to me? Maybe because it seems like a better experience to provide a few more options. and it doesn't go against what seems to have become the focus of the argument. A lot of the systems in the game that I don't particularly care for the make or break would just be a bit of tweaking and re-balancing. I still feels like there is too much knee-jerk adding and removing things instead of putting time into tuning them.

 

@Rotor It's because you put in an external link. It seems to be a new(ish) forum feature.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Krougal (see edit history)

[Rotor]

Rgr, thanks.  Well here is another

 

https://youtu.be/eOxZrCAPhok

[Roland]

3 hours ago, zztong said:

There are no TFP long-term goals for water scarcity, so infinite water is irrelevant. Duct tape doesn't matter, or any other recipe, if I understand you correctly.

There is no intent for long-term water scarcity. It is something that is intended for the player to solve in the early game. . I have no idea what you mean by “duct tape doesn’t matter, or any other recipe” so I don’t know if you understood me or not. 😀

 

3 hours ago, zztong said:

Neither presents more than a day of struggle or progression, unless you're a new player and need time to figure out recipes and understand the game. Water scarcity really puts them into an interesting bind.

 

I doubt there is any system that is going to be able to stump a veteran of the game or feel particularly challenging unless it is intentionally punitive or draconian for that very purpose which, of course, would be disastrous for new players. 
 

The difference as I see it for myself is that re-usable empty jars that can be infinitely refilled at a nearby water source is too insignificant for my liking.  Even if the time frame of solving water ends up being about the same for someone willing to min/max questing and trader economics, at least there is some conscious effort to achieve an actual objective. 
 

The new system involves scavenging for materials in order to craft objects that will produce water. I like that level of significance for me putting effort into getting the objective I want. 
 

It is the exact difference in feeling I get between building a base from resources I harvested myself vs opening the creative menu and taking stacks of everything I want in order to build. 
 

3 hours ago, zztong said:

But I'm into survival, so I prioritize food and water. You suggest it takes a week to solve water scarcity, so you're priorities are elsewhere. You must not buy a cooking pot before all else. I assume we're both doing quests, as that's how I'd find/afford a cooking pot. Quests are dropping murky water, which I'll be purifying. Are you just drinking murky water for a week until you get a bicycle, or something? I think we're playing the same length days (60 minutes).

 

I limit myself to one quest at most in a day. I explore POIs without a quest attached. I feel that, much like empty jars are for water, quests are OP for general progression. I do buy a pot on day 2 if I don’t find one on day one. I’m definitely still at tier one quests by time the first bloodmoon comes and my first few collector gets built anywhere from Day 6-8. 
 

There is more murky water in loot than there initially was when the new system was implemented so I don’t drink murky water as often as I have in the past.  If I get a vitamin I will often pop it and go drink directly from a water source. 
 

Another result of the new system that I like is that I cook and drink more teas and drinks rather than just drinking water all the time. In the old system there was such a glut of water that it was just easy to drink five jars of water because there was always plenty.  In the new system I want to always have tea because it goes farther. 
 

4 hours ago, zztong said:

Also, this infinite murky water still commits you to spending time purifying it plus the fuel and the resulting heat. By comparison, the Dew Collectors represent only an initial challenge to afford a filter and a source of heat. You effectively get infinite water once you have some number of Dew Collectors. For me, that number was around 3-4.

 

Honestly, I see very little difference.

 

Sounds like you play much more efficiently than I do. A lot of people who say they prioritize survival often mean that they are willing to take advantage of anything the game allows since to do less wouldn’t be a survival mindset. I try not to take advantage of things the game allows that feels exploitive.
 

3-4 dew collectors for me would take 2-3 game weeks which is a big difference from A20 which delivered infinite water in 2-3 game days and without even focusing any effort on it. When  empty jars are present they just flow into your inventory and snowball to stacks and stacks without any appreciable effort. 
 

Im glad your mod makes the game more pleasant for you. To me, empty jars just feel like cheating now and as I’m currently playing a mod that has them, I feel compelled to throw them out and ignore them so I can enjoy the otherwise great overhaul mod. 

 

[Roland]

4 hours ago, Krougal said:

I feel like you and Meganoth have fed that assumption. I am not interested in getting into a @%$#ing match over it and I'm not going to go back and cite posts where he said/she said, but right or wrong, that is where I got that assumption.

 

um...sorry?

 

4 hours ago, Krougal said:

My own point in my last post still stands. It is not a struggle, as I iterated what was done is ineffective in making it a struggle, so it is good if you say that is not what TFP intended, because it doesn't work.

 

So now I see why you might have gotten a false impression from a post of mine previously because you pretty much just mangled what I said this time and are setting yourself up for a new false impression. Let me be clear:

 

TFP's goal was for water survival to be more of a struggle than it has been historically in this game. The struggle was not intended to be one that lasts weeks and weeks and weeks into your playthrough but simply introduces a process by which you would need to secure an abundance of water.

 

A20 with reusable empty glass jars: Abundance achieved immediately and without much effort. You can largely ignore it and yet you find yourself with stacks of jars that can all be filled at once.

A21 with no empty glass jars: Abundance achieved after exerting effort. If you ignore it you can find yourself dying of thirst so you must expend some time and effort in securing your abundance.

 

Is there a struggle in the early game for water beyond what there once was? Absolutely. More experienced players adjusted quickly and felt less of a struggle, but less experienced players definitely reported a struggle. Beyond the struggle, in the new system there is definitely a greater need to make tea and better drinks rather than simply drinking water all the time even after you have your infrastructure in place. For those who use water for other things besides drinking there are more times in the current system where you must choose how to allocate your water. This was never an issue or a choice to be made in the old system. 

 

I never said that TFP didn't intend to increase the struggle for water. I said that the struggle shouldn't extend beyond the early game once you have dew collectors in place or an income going where you can buy all you need-- whichever path you wish to follow. Some people play so efficiently that they can get 4-5 dew collectors up and running in the first few days but others take a week or two to get to that point. Either way, the water struggle comes to an end relatively early in the game which is what the devs intended but it does require more effort to execute than in the past which is also what the devs intended.

 

4 hours ago, Krougal said:

So why am I making a big deal out of something that doesn't make a lot of difference to me? Maybe because it seems like a better experience to provide a few more options. and it doesn't go against what seems to have become the focus of the argument. A lot of the systems in the game that I don't particularly care for the make or break would just be a bit of tweaking and re-balancing. I still feels like there is too much knee-jerk adding and removing things instead of putting time into tuning them.

 

It does make a big difference to me. Glass jars feels like playing with the creative menu activated to me. They make the first few days to the first couple weeks (Depending on how crazy efficiently you play) completely inconsequential. I personally enjoy having to juggle dew collector, shelter, food, quests, scavenging, resource gathering, etc and I feel it would be a step backward to remove one of the balls I'm currently juggling and just go back to automatically having infinite water. As I stated, I throw away all the glass jars I acquire while playing District Zero because I very much enjoy the new system. It's amazing how often I have to throw jars away-- they build up so quickly and without the slightest effort....

 

As far as knee-jerk adding or removing things, where have you gotten that idea? A knee-jerk is a reactionary change because you are fearful of the backlash. The mantra for the glass jars has always been "Nobody asked for this change, nobody wanted this change". So who the heck were the devs reacting to when they removed the glass jars? Furthermore, this change was enacted early in the A21 development cycle. There was over a year of playtesting and adjustments made and plenty of time for the devs to choose to go back and revert if after months of playing it they felt it was a bad change. No, there was nothing knee-jerk or sudden about the water overhaul. 

 

Now, if the devs listened to you and other critics of the system right now and got rid of it for A21.3, THAT would be the epitome of a knee-jerk change. That's why you shouldn't expect any changes other than small adjustments until at least A22 or A23.

 

The adjustment I personally would make would be to reduce the amount of murky water that drops in containers closer to the original amount. It is far too generous right now, imo.

[Rotor]

49 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

 

 

Now, if the devs listened to you and other critics of the system right now and got rid of it for A21.3, THAT would be the epitome of a knee-jerk change. That's why you shouldn't expect any changes other than small adjustments until at least A22 or A23.

 

Two more years before Gold!

 

Got it.

[Krougal]

@Roland I don't know how you had these magical jars from heaven in A20, for some reason my A20 memory is a bit foggy, maybe I was doing something wrong, but I can tell you A19 and earlier, I dug up plenty of sand to make glass jars by the hundreds. Hardly a non-issue or something non-trivial. I feel like I wasn't doing that in A20, probably because of the removal of ethanol, which was the main reason to make jars en masse. Re-usable containers are well re-usable, so you just don't need as many.

 

I didn't mangle anything, it simply isn't a struggle. The first day EVERYTHING is a struggle, because you have next to nothing. You need to start doing a little bit of everything, there are certain immediate priorities that are common to everyone no matter their playstyle or build. Basic survival of course being foremost of those.

 

As to the rest, I'm done, you used to be fun to have discussions with but I feel like you'd rather argue over semantics on everything with everyone these days and it's starting to feel like talking to a lawyer. I wasn't talking about this particular change being a knee-jerk reaction. I was talking about how they have added and removed things over the years. I don't feel like they devote the time to tuning anything as they add and scrap systems wholesale. I didn't just show up here yesterday, I've been playing this game for many builds. 

 

[zztong]

3 hours ago, Roland said:

There is no intent for long-term water scarcity. It is something that is intended for the player to solve in the early game. . I have no idea what you mean by “duct tape doesn’t matter, or any other recipe” so I don’t know if you understood me or not.

 

I was trying to envision what long-term water scarcity goals might have been. Limiting duct tape is what I hear other players talk about, but I didn't know if that was TFP's goal. If you say there's not a long-term scarcity goal, then nobody is trying to limit duct tape, or at least not trying to use water to limit it.

 

I like to think I understood you, but I do seem to misunderstand people from time to time.

 

3 hours ago, Roland said:

The new system involves scavenging for materials in order to craft objects that will produce water. I like that level of significance for me putting effort into getting the objective I want. 
 

It is the exact difference in feeling I get between building a base from resources I harvested myself vs opening the creative menu and taking stacks of everything I want in order to build.

 

I think I see, but you tell me...

 

You craft Dew Collectors and are satisfied as you have built your base. Each day you harvest Potable Water.

Each Day I harvest some Murky Water from a water source. I craft Potable Water at a Camp Fire and am satisfied.

 

The comparison seems equal, but ultimately a matter of taste.

 

I don't see harvesting Murky Water from a water source as an equivalent of using the creative menu. I see it as an equivalent to harvesting clay.

 

4 hours ago, Roland said:

Sounds like you play much more efficiently than I do. A lot of people who say they prioritize survival often mean that they are willing to take advantage of anything the game allows since to do less wouldn’t be a survival mindset. I try not to take advantage of things the game allows that feels exploitive.

 

You're limiting yourself to 1 quest per day. That is the significant difference. You're earning Dukes at 1/2 to 1/3 my rate.

 

Do you stay in your base at night? If so, that's another difference. Once I've made a couple of padded armor pieces, I'll be out at night hunting, foraging, and maybe doing a quest to turn in when the trader opens. (The buried supplies quests are great at night in the early days.)

 

I'd love to know what you'd consider exploitive. I don't think I'm doing anything exploitive.

 

I'm assuming different spending priorities are at play here too. In the early game, I'll spend my Dukes on filters for Dew Collectors (Vanilla) or save them (Modded). I craft or loot everything I use. I'll have a bicycle from completing tier 1 quests around day 3 or 4.

 

4 hours ago, Roland said:

Im glad your mod makes the game more pleasant for you. To me, empty jars just feel like cheating now and as I’m currently playing a mod that has them, I feel compelled to throw them out and ignore them so I can enjoy the otherwise great overhaul mod.

 

Yeh, I don't miss the empty jars. Water sources just give me a jar of murky water instead of drinking from the water source. If I want 10 jars of murky water, I have to spend 30 seconds or so collecting them. My murky water stack size is 10, so I don't tend to haul back 100 jars or anything.

 

There's a difference when it comes to traveling. When traveling in Vanilla, I need to stock up on water and carry it. That takes planning and that's cool. I like planning. When traveling with my Mod, I carry a cooking pot and grill. I can hunt and gather water as I travel. Living off the land in that way is cool too and I find that appealing. The inventory hit is about the same. Both vanilla and the modded approaches are fine to me.

 

Another difference is variety in base locations. In Vanilla I'll be near a trader as the Dew Collectors provide water wherever I place them. In Modded, I'll be near a water source, with a water source near a trader being a bonus.

 

[Jost Amman]

6 hours ago, zztong said:

I'd love to know what you'd consider exploitive. I don't think I'm doing anything exploitive.

Hmm... let's see, like over-doing quests maybe?

But I wouldn't call it "exploting" the trader, I'd call it, TFP need to balance the trader more (as I said before).

[Riamus]

15 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

It doesn't feel like water is easy early game because you're not a min-maxer or level-rusher like some players who comment here.

I understand perfectly what you mean, and I've got the same impression with the new water mechanics.

 

Anyway, most people can't stand the fact they can't get water from lakes, ponds and rivers, that's the main complaint I read on the forums.

 

My idea, which would work perfectly, is to allow them to get murky water from sources, but make your stored water "spoil away" (read evaporate) in a reasonably short time.

 

That way, people won't complain anymore about not being able to use water sources, BUT, if they want to move away from rivers and ponds, they'll better rely on the dew collectors as a source. It's a win-win in my opinion. TFP wouldn't even need to roll back on the current mechanics to add that.

 

The only downside would be, that all the checks the game would need to do, to have water evaporate in your storage, could take away a some FPS from everything.

I'm not a programmer, so, who knows?  ( @faatal? )

I'd disagree that this works perfectly.  If you go out and gather a couple hundred jars of water and immediately start making glue, food, or something to drink, you're not going to ever see it evaporate.  You'd only risk that if you don't use it right away.  But if you know it'll evaporate, there's no reason not to use it right away.  And as far as stuff to actually drink, since all drinks would presumably evaporate, you're just making it necessary to gather water for drinking in sets of 5-10 or so and boil it up and use it and then repeat instead of setting up a stock to use whenever you need it.  That doesn't in any way make water at all difficult and just makes having to constantly make stuff to drink in smaller batches more of a chore than being able to make larger batches.

[Riamus]

A few thoughts based on a number of different posts above...

 

If you only loot one POI per day, you're possibly going to struggle with water.  If you loot a few a day or even every couple of days, water shouldn't be an issue for drinking.  If you maintain this pattern, by the time you are cooking food that needs water, you shouldn't have any issue with water to do so.  This is all without any dew collectors in at least 1-2 player games.  For larger groups, this may vary depending how many are looting and how many places are looted in a day.  Obviously, if larger groups aren't looting enough POI to get enough murky water to boil for the entire group, then you are going to need dew collectors to compensate.  So this creates a very different game experience based on the number of players, which I don't think is a good thing.  If a solo player can easily ignore dew collectors without even putting in any effort (if they are looting regularly) and a group of 8 has almost no choice but to have a dew collector farm just to manage thirst, with other numbers of players falling between those extremes, that's not a good balance, imo.

 

In a solo or 2 player game, I have not had any difficulty with water.  Yes, I do quest often but questing doesn't get me water any more than if I'm just looting.  I don't buy drinks from the trader.  I don't need to buy a bunch of filters since I don't need dew collectors, so quests don't help me there either.  I've yet to need to buy a pot because I find them everywhere.  For anyone who is struggling, they have the option if they need to of getting 10 water from tier 1 quest rewards probably about once in every 3 quests, give or take.  If you quest once per day and you need water and can't seem to get enough murky water, this is enough to keep you going all on its own.  Murky water is everywhere.  I can come out of most tier 1 POI with a minimum of 5 murky water and often more.  That's enough for a couple of days for a person.  So if you are looting only 1 POI per day, you should still have plenty for drinking.  If you loot more than that, you'll start stockpiling it really quickly and have plenty once you're ready to start cooking food that needs water.  Of course, you can also just stick to cooking food that doesn't need water.  I hate constantly eating such lower food but it's an option for those who don't mind it and there's no need for water and plenty of meat to make that possible.  And this is all with even drinking plain boiled water instead of making teas or other drinks that are a far more efficient use of the murky water.

 

What this comes down to is that water is not scarce in the first couple of days if you have even the slightest interest in looting.  If you want to avoid all looting, then sure... it's an issue.  But if you loot even one or two a day, there's no reason you shouldn't have plenty of water immediately.  Day 1, you're covered by the 2 water you start with.  By day 2, you should have found some murky water without any effort and so it isn't an issue.  You should be already starting to get enough murky water by day 3 to start stockpiling it (albeit in small numbers initially).  So I really don't consider the change to be at all a challenge in the first days or at all scarce.

 

Now... Roland has been stating that water is meant to be scarce in the first couple of days to a week (if you are having trouble in a week and aren't in a large group of players who don't want to loot much, there's a problem) and that there isn't an intent for it to be an issue long term.  As I've said above, it isn't an issue in the beginning if you put even the absolutely bare minimum of effort in to loot a POI once a day.  As for long term, the fact that they bumped duct tape requirements up so high in recipes means that you are actually making it more of a challenge in mid- to late-game for anyone who wants to do a lot of crafting.  So it actually seems to be the opposite of the stated intent.  Not any more difficult in the first few days (you may need to adjust how you play a bit if you never looted before) and instead a requirement to spend time setting up a large dew collector farm if you want to do any serious crafting in the later game.

 

Now, I will point out that I gave up crafting in A21 except for tier 1 weapons and specific things like vehicles, gas, ammo, building blocks, etc.  I don't see any reason to make thousands of duct tape just to craft stuff.  I'd rather just find it, even if it can take longer to do so.  It isn't that I can't make the duct tape.  I just don't feel like bothering with it.  If the recipes were the same as in A20, I'd be crafting all kinds of stuff but, oh well.  So, yes, I don't need water for much beyond cooking and drinking.  But we're really talking about early game and you don't need much duct tape until you're past the point where you're "supposed to" be no longer struggling with water, right?  So it doesn't really change anything.  I've yet to have any difficulty with water.  There may have been times when I didn't have anything to drink because I forgot to boil water and so I starting boiling the stack of 20+ murky water sitting in my inventory and it took a few minutes of waiting so I could drink something, but that isn't an actual challenge.

 

Yes, I do loot a lot.  In the early game, I like going through the various POI and finding stuff.  That gives me a ton of murky water.  Others don't do this and I get that.  But as I mentioned, one POI a day should easily give you enough murky water to last you at least a day, especially if made into tea.  If you did 3 on your first day (no quest required), you could have enough water to last you a week without having to loot again during that week (this is per person, to be clear).  I just don't see in any game I've done in A21 even the slightest difficulty with water.  Yes, I'm not in an 8 player game where some won't leave the base, but as I said earlier, that just emphasizes that the balance is off enough to make small groups have no problem and large groups have problems, which I still say isn't a good thing.  And even then, I would think you'd have one or two people in the group who enjoy looting and can loot 4 or 5 tier 1s in a day between them, which should easily cover drinking and cooking water for the group even if no one else in the group helped.

 

And to be clear, this is on default loot settings.  If you reduce the loot abundance, you could have more difficulty.  Other difficulty settings may also make it more challenging.  However, as this is a choice to change these settings specifically to increase difficulty, I don't think that's a problem.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

44 minutes ago, Riamus said:

I'd disagree that this works perfectly.  If you go out and gather a couple hundred jars of water and immediately start making glue, food, or something to drink, you're not going to ever see it evaporate.

As long as you stay near the water source, that's exactly what I intended. It would work exactly like in A20.

 

But if you stock up with hundreds of murky water jars that you get from the nearby water source, and then travel to an area far away where there's no water source available (e.g.: in the desert), you risk finding yourself with hundreds of empty jars once you get there.

 

44 minutes ago, Riamus said:

And as far as stuff to actually drink, since all drinks would presumably evaporate,

That's a good point I didn't think of... but they could introduce a better bottling recipe for mid-game, where liquids won't evaporate enymore if you use (e.g.) a "sealed jar".

 

44 minutes ago, Riamus said:

That doesn't in any way make water at all difficult and just makes having to constantly make stuff to drink in smaller batches more of a chore than being able to make larger batches.

It does. As long as you can't get far from water sources without risking drinks to evaporate, it will make lakes, ponds and rivers logistically significant again.

At least, until you setup a base with dew collectors.

 

But for all this to work, they need to make dew collectors more difficult to craft or its components more rare.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Jost Amman (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

12 hours ago, Roland said:

The difference as I see it for myself is that re-usable empty jars that can be infinitely refilled at a nearby water source is too insignificant for my liking.  Even if the time frame of solving water ends up being about the same for someone willing to min/max questing and trader economics, at least there is some conscious effort to achieve an actual objective. 

The Undead Legacy mod already solved this in A20 by allowing you to refill water from toilets, sinks, fire hydrants, and shower heads instead of open water sources.
The amount of water you could get there was limited. For example, you could only fill 2 glasses of water from a faucet, and without lootrespawn, the faucet remained empty.

Also, you could not craft your own jars until very late in the game. You needed a level 3 blacksmith, if I remember correctly.

 

[zztong]

5 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

Hmm... let's see, like over-doing quests maybe?

But I wouldn't call it "exploting" the trader, I'd call it, TFP need to balance the trader more (as I said before).

 

I can't tell if you're speculating somebody might think completing multiple quests in a day is exploitive, or asserting that completing multiple quests in a day is exploitive.

 

I could see where somebody might suggest that doing a fetch quest and focusing solely on getting the quest bag as soon as possible, might be exploiting the quest to earn Dukes and Quest Rewards (bike, workstations) faster, but in doing so they are likely skipping loot that would sell for Dukes. Ultimately, I don't know how I feel about that. "Grab the bag and go" seems kind of okay to me, though I don't do that because I count on loot to equip me, not the trader.

[zztong]

4 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

But if you stock up with hundreds of murky water jars that you get from the nearby water source, and then travel to an area far away where there's no water source available (e.g.: in the desert), you risk finding yourself with hundreds of empty jars once you get there.

 

Playing with water from a water source, I don't ever really grab more than 10 water. There's two things at play here.

 

Primarily, I don't need 100 water sitting in a chest. Making 100 water to sit in a chest is a waste of effort, both in the 100 clicks and waiting on the animation, but also in preparation time and fuel. I need about 10 for making drinks and maybe some other crafting, and I've probably already got 5 murky water from looting POIs. When a lake is a viable water source, I build near the lake. It stores the water.

 

Second, I only let murky water stack to 10 so that it is like all of the other liquids, unless I were (for some reason) making a dedicated water run for some large project, I probably don't have the space in inventory for more than a couple of stacks.

[meganoth]

On 9/24/2023 at 1:24 PM, zztong said:

 

You're correct in that my mod doesn't create long-term scarcity. I'm not sure how everyone else plays, but Dew Collectors didn't bring me long-term scarcity either. Water was effectively infinite when I played strictly Vanilla with Dew Collectors. Of course everyone plays differently, but I was overflowing with water at around the 3-4 Dew Collector point.

 

I'm not sure which recipes constitute "all demands." Because of that, I'm not really sure what the long-term scarcity is supposed to be. I see a lot of people complain about mass producing duct tape. I'm not that player. I usually have spare duct tape after the first week of play and needing to make 5-10 more of it wouldn't be a challenge with either water system.

 

I have no doubts my goals differ from TFP's goals. I'm happy to think more about it if perhaps you could tell me what recipe is supposed to be scarce in the middle to late game?

 

You might recall back in A20 when the water system was announced, I pushed back hard -- probably too hard. (Sorry.) These days I'm not pushing, just observing and discussing. Once I got to play A21 with the new system I realized the new system worked -- was playable -- but it still rubs me the wrong way. I'm completely cool with a local mod to fix it.

 

The thread moved along and Roland has clarified much, but I want to specifically answer the questions you posted here.

 

Your specific playstyle, whatever you do, is more efficient than mine. When I played a SP game in A21, I got hit a a bit too often on the first day and also got infected. That alone cost me a lot of time that you seem to have used to loot houses. If everything works the game is easy. For a beginner or someone who hasn't played many action-oriented games the combat isn't trivial. I did only get one trader-quest done at the first day, not because I was artificially limiting myself, but because I needed the first day to get to the trader, make that quests, loot some more kitchens for a pot and clear a POI for staying there that night.

 

Naturally I can only guess what the difference could be between our games, but my game happened to be one where I bought a few drinks at the trader, did quests and even though I had a dew collector, had not enough water for drinking AND glue production for the first week. Even after that it was not like I "swam" in water. I had built 4 dew collectors at the end of second or third week, but I wasn't collecting water from them every day but randomly when I remembered AND was at home.

 

And in 4 player multiplayer it was even more pronounced. Sure, we were fast in producing dew collectors, but we also were crafting a lot and needed to increase the number of dew collectors until we were satisfied to ~14. But we tend to overproduce, especially food.

 

Back to my single player game. Besides some of the food (blueberry pie, pumpkin pie in "late" early game) and red tea I needed water for crafting any iteration of pipe gun (2). When I found a mod recipe I could use that cost 5 glue at least (needs a workbench so that was a little later in early game). My cloth armor set needed at least 5 duct tape. The dew collectors itself needed 4 so in a way each dew collector needed 4 days to break even and 5 days (nearly a week) to actually gain me the first water!! The forge needed 3.  I think I also needed to craft at least one wrench, so another 2. The clothing storage mods needed 1 each, the better one even 2. The bellows needs 5, not sure when I was able to craft that. I needed to craft a splint twice.

 

When I could finally craft the workbench (not sure when that was) with 5 duct tape, a lot of further recipes, like the storage pocket mods became available that needed water. At around that time I also needed to craft a few repair kits.

 

Yes, all of the above are one-time expenses. You either avoided crafting some of the above or you simply looted much faster than I did and found a lot of water. Don't expect everyone to have the same experience like you do. I can tell you that even an experienced player like me had water scarcity so I could not craft everything I wanted in the first week and maybe even further. And the game is surely balanced for a normal player or group of players less experienced than I am.

 

One BIG difference: Even in mid and maybe even late game jars of water I found in loot were (to me) often more worth than the slot they were occupying. I.e. I considered them an item of value. Now in earlier alphas I mostly threw away murky water or empty jars because those items were less important than one single inventory space. Because when I needed water I simply made a stack of 200 at once. Yes, you need sand for that, but at least in my games the sand for the water was a negligible amount that I often got on the side when doing some digging.

 

To sum it up: If you have no problem at all with getting water the first days, you probably are not a typical player. AND even you probably value a jar of water in loot more now than you did in A20.

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

2 hours ago, zztong said:

I can't tell if you're speculating somebody might think completing multiple quests in a day is exploitive, or asserting that completing multiple quests in a day is exploitive.

Both actually.

 

Speculating, because for people like me and Roland, who play the game, instead of trying to "game tha game", it looks like rushing quests as quick as possible to get as many water filters, water and money you can, looks like "exploiting a mechanic" (airquotes needed).

 

Asserting, because I think The Fun Pimps didn't balance the trader enough (yet) and are allowing such mechanics to be exploited by "efficient" players.

This last one is a negative, in my opinion, because players need to play in a context where they should find advantageous to play like the developers envisioned.

 

2 hours ago, zztong said:

 

Playing with water from a water source, I don't ever really grab more than 10 water. There's two things at play here.

 

Primarily, I don't need 100 water sitting in a chest. Making 100 water to sit in a chest is a waste of effort, both in the 100 clicks and waiting on the animation, but also in preparation time and fuel. I need about 10 for making drinks and maybe some other crafting, and I've probably already got 5 murky water from looting POIs. When a lake is a viable water source, I build near the lake. It stores the water.

 

Second, I only let murky water stack to 10 so that it is like all of the other liquids, unless I were (for some reason) making a dedicated water run for some large project, I probably don't have the space in inventory for more than a couple of stacks.

Not sure why you're saying this to me, since it was Riamus who was talking about stocking up hundreds of jars of water.