What was the point of the water change?

[Lamblaska]

4 minutes ago, AllTheGoodNamesAreInUse said:

 

I've always actually thought there should be a "Water Filtration Station" workstation in the game. You should be able to input murky water and output pure water (with a "crafting time" inserted because that's how it would work IRL too).  Making part of that workstation a consumable would make sense (charcoal filters are easy to make but they wear out and stop being effective over enough use).  Easily doable in-game.

 

Side note, we already made a "craftable water purifier" recipe for A21 as a mod for our group's server that includes coal as a component.  This kind of thing doesn't need to be as heavy handed as TFP seem dead-set on making it.

You are suggesting that the dew collector just collects and another workstation just to filter it? Is that it? I suggested being together because the water filter is one of the components of the dew collector. 

Regarding your idea(purifying station), I need to think about it. My questions would be more like. How did you felt it was on early, mid and late game? 

I currently play with 7 friends(8 including me). 4 are the constant players, the other 4 show up from time to time. We divide our selves in roles and focuses on craft and tasks.

-Up to the 7th day. Both water and food were a struggle. We had only 3 dew collectors and we rely heavily on murky water from loot. 
-When we reached day 14. We had like 8 dew collectors. We no longer drank water (just coffe, tea or juice) and we had a few spare to create glue.
-When we reached day 21. We stopped around 13 dew collectors. And we had plenty of water for food and drinks and a steady production of glue. We build like a storage of those.
-When we reached day 28.  We didn't add new dew collectors. We had a large production of glue, making miner coffee from time to time to replenish stock. 
-Now arriving at day 35. We didn't add any new dew collectors but still. I have to produce glue constantly to free space from the craft food box.

In a nutshell. My perception was. 

1) it worked pretty well at early game. It feels really scarce. Not drinking water only yucca juice or coffee was key to improve water consumption effectiveness. 
2) It worked ok during the 2nd and 3rd week. We had enough for the group and a ok production of glue, duct tape and repair kit.
3) from 3rd week ahead. We are producing more glue, duct tape and repair kit that we are able to spend. It no longer felt like a challenge. 
4) The amount of murky water you collect from loot is brutal. In a single in game day loot we get like 60 to a 100 murky water. As murky water stacks so much, it make no sense to collect it. 

[Roland]

3 hours ago, Old Crow said:

 

Sounds more like you just enjoy crapping your pants from dysentery lol. You know that using a water filter mod would be considered part of water survival gameplay, right?

Sometimes I feel like you make up scenarios like this just to be contradictory and try and invalidate people's points of view.

I’m certain of the water survival “gameplay” you desire since anything that is added that creates a challenge or a struggle or tough choices gets labeled by you as anti-player hostility by the developers. To you, a water filter hat that removes any water struggle whatsoever is the best thing ever so someone must by lying if they claim to not use it because they wanted to use dew collectors and have to make choices about their limited supply of clean water whether to use it for drinks, cooking, or crafting— at least for a time. 
 

Also, how does me admitting that I sold the filter mod both times I found it invalidate anyone’s point?  The person I responded to criticized the existence of the mod since it instantly solves the water issue just like filling up glass jars from a lake would. My admission only confirms that point. I was essentially agreeing that the filter mod wrecks TFPs new water gameplay loop—which is why I sold them. 
 

But even beyond that, I was simply sharing my own experience and desire to play the intended design which I felt the filter mod would bypass and I didn’t want to do that. That was just me in two of my playthroughs. It doesn’t invalidate how anyone else likes to play. If you let out a huge whoop when you find one on the first day because that is the water survival gameplay you enjoy that doesn’t invalidate me or my point. 

 

 

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, Lamblaska said:

Hello Guys.

I honestly think you are merging a lot of topics here. I see balance and difficult stuff, but also immersion and "reality like" points. This is kind of not productive. I would split up this way:

I) Balance and difficult are about tuning and changing parameters. For instance:
-Change the drop rate of something.
-Change the value of purchase.
-Change how long it takes to produce or how much material it needs to do so. 

In this particular case(AKA.: Dew collector) :
If dew collectors are too OP (as in, provide too much water in too quickly). You can basically make them hard to be acquired (considering the early, mid and late game). Or make them provide less water per time. 

II) Change immersion and reality like. For instance:
-Add a new game mechanic for something.

-Change/Remove a mechanic that doesn't fulfill it's purpose.
-Encourage or not something in game with rewards or in place mechanics. 

In this particular case(AKA.: Dew collectors):
If they are not immersive enough. You could add a game mechanic that would fluctuate production according to weather. This would make them less predictable and reliable. Or a feature that the filter has a lifespan (like real filters do). As they are used, they become less and less effective, taking more time to fill up the dew up to the point it provides only 1 murky water a day. You could add the possibility of craft a purifier (using sand + coal + silver + nitrate). This would add an upkeep effort to dew collectors in mid to late game. 


 

Now... a personal feedback regarding the new water mechanic:

Before:
-Honestly. Water before was irrelevant. It was easy and not immersive at the same time. You would start with a single water(with a glass) and you would basically need only a lake or a pool and a campfire to be self sufficient about water. Even with glasses and other stuff, you would basically accumulate them so easily and so quickly. And that make a lot of sense.
-Think about it, Plastic and glass bottles are literally everywhere around us and inside the game too. There are trash bins, trash bags, backpacks all around the place. The same didn't happened with most of the materials and craft in game. How did you carry sand, wood, food (yeah, no plates there), glue, and on and on. 

Now:
-Cooking pot is in deed a priority and at the same time, something once you acquire some you no longer need to worry about. That makes sense as a balance perspective because you have to focus on searching it. And also from a immersion perspective since once you have acquired a few (in house kitchens) you no longer need to worry about.
-Dew collectors are much more coherent than grabbing water around and boil it. Boil water is not as the same as filter it. Imagine how much dirty, junk, and diseases would be in a pool. Or in a river that zombies swim inside. From a immersion perspective, do make a lot of sense IMO. In a balance perspective, I still think it´s better than before. But still require improvement (a lot). 
-Not worry about containers such as glasses do make a lot of sense to me. From a balance and difficult perspective looks like something extremely complex to manage variables. For a immersion that would not be felt, since it would be handling like just another craft component. This overthinking in containers would make the game less fun and would require a lot of effort to feel really immersive. This effort is better applied elsewhere. 
-I do not like the dew collector generating heat. I do understand it is a balance thing. But not a good one IMO. 

Here are a list of few suggestions for the current water system: 
1) Make dew collectors be affected by biomes and weather. This would make them less reliable and less predictable. [This is a high effort one and the last one IMO]
2) Remove Dew collector heat since they are the most passive thing possible. It's not immersive. [Low effort]
3) Use a wood burn like mechanic. Instead of wood, gas or paper. It would require water purifiers [Medium effort I think, its a already in place mechanic but it would require to be clone it and change it).
4) Water purifiers requires, as a "expendable material" that would "burn" in collector dews to be craftable. Stone, Sand, plastic, nitrate and maybe even silver could be a thing. [Low effort].
5) Add the water purifier recipe somewhere to be learn (maybe workstations, or one of those special books of survival).  [Low effort] 
6) Add water purifier to be scrapped form water filters around the map. [Low effort]


With this suggestions. I think it would be a immersive thing but also would require a upkeep effort. It would not only be build and go there once or twice a day to collect. 7dtd in mid to late game is also a time management challenge, having an upkeep would make it a tradeoff to have a lot of them around. 

What you think about these suggestions? 

 

Nice idea with the expendable resource.

 

Dew collectors affected by weather would mean that they had to be loaded all time or at least when it rains, and that would cost precious FPS according to Faatal

 

 

 

[AllTheGoodNamesAreInUse]

52 minutes ago, Lamblaska said:

You are suggesting that the dew collector just collects and another workstation just to filter it? Is that it? I suggested being together because the water filter is one of the components of the dew collector. 

 

No, I actually think dew collectors shouldn't need a filter. That's just stupid.  They should produce pure water without, since it's coming from evaporation/condensation cycle.

 

The water filtration workstation would be for purifying murky water.

[Roland]

I actually like the idea that was floated earlier of the filter being a tool slot item on the dew collector instead of part of its recipe and that it generates murky water until that filter is obtained and inserted. If iteration 2 of the station makes a change like that I'd be okay with it. That said, I don't know how that would affect the balance. It might be worth modding out the filter from the dew collector recipe and change it to produce murky water and try playing with that to see how it affects things.

[theFlu]

8 minutes ago, Roland said:

That said, I don't know how that would affect the balance.

Assuming no other changes:

Time to condense a jar of murky: ~20 mins.

Time to boil the murky into water: ~1 min.

Building an extra campfire next to every 20 collectors: 5 stones, 31 iron for pot, clay.

 

Total change in output: ~ none.

Total change in extra hassle: a bit.

 

I mean, sure, it makes the "first level" easier to mass manufacture, but that was sorta the design intent, to slow down production?

Edited June 30, 2023 by theFlu (see edit history)

[Lamblaska]

5 minutes ago, theFlu said:

Assuming no other changes:

Time to condense a jar of murky: ~20 mins.

Time to boil the murky into water: ~1 min.

Building an extra campfire next to every 20 collectors: 5 stones, 31 iron for pot, clay.

 

Total change in output: ~ none.

Total change in extra hassle: a bit.

 

I mean, sure, it makes the "first level" easier to mass manufacture, but that was sorta the design intent, to slow down production?

Just adding a filter to provide water would with the current 1 murky water - 1 water balance. It would be too much effort, for too little return. 

That´s why a good way to handle this would be something like....

5 or 10 murky water for each water production. Basically you would balance this by reducing the effectiveness of the current water boiling system. You can also change how long it takes, but I don't think that is so effective, since campfires are so easy to build.  

Building Dews would be easy. Acquiring filters... not so much. You can still get your boiled water, but much less effective.  Making filter would be useful for larger amounts, not small.

[Roland]

13 minutes ago, theFlu said:

Assuming no other changes:

Time to condense a jar of murky: ~20 mins.

Time to boil the murky into water: ~1 min.

Building an extra campfire next to every 20 collectors: 5 stones, 31 iron for pot, clay.

 

Total change in output: ~ none.

Total change in extra hassle: a bit.

 

I mean, sure, it makes the "first level" easier to mass manufacture, but that was sorta the design intent, to slow down production?

 

It also eliminates the reliance on a trader to get water production going which seems to be a major complaint. If TFP is going to stick to its guns with the current system but possibly make adjustments to it to address concerns they hear then I could see this or something similar being a possibility.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Roland (see edit history)

[theFlu]

2 minutes ago, Lamblaska said:

5 or 10 murky water for each water production.

So you'd need about three collectors running for a day to produce a single drinkable water/glue? That sounds like the distance between my base and the trader would be FILLED with collectors

 

6 minutes ago, Roland said:

reliance on a trader

Yeh, people are complaining about that. I can't decide on a level of snark, so lets go with <mild>:

"The reliance is hopefully also by design. The alternative isn't really funny anymore ... "

 

[AtomicUs5000]

52 minutes ago, Roland said:

I actually like the idea that was floated earlier of the filter being a tool slot item on the dew collector instead of part of its recipe and that it generates murky water until that filter is obtained and inserted.

Yes, then I can jam a silencer in that slot!

[Lamblaska]

Just now, theFlu said:

So you'd need about three collectors running for a day to produce a single drinkable water/glue? That sounds like the distance between my base and the trader would be FILLED with collectors

Yes. You could. But it would not be effective. It would require a lot of upkeeping. Imagine walking 200m pressing E and R, and them putting everything on a campfire for boiling down (also, I do think reduce the maximum stack off murky water would be interesting too).  Limiting the maximum stack of murky to 10 or 20 would make is less interesting to hoard murky water from scavenging. 

Don't focus yourself too much on the example number. Think about it how it effects balance. It uses the same logic as preparing glue or gunpowder outside the chem station. You can still do it, but much less effective. You can outcome lesser effectiveness with more raw production. But it does not scale so well. 

Also, how do you make the schematic/recipe available affects this. If you make filters  like craft level unlock. It means you get somehow a linear time to be able to craft and that time will depend if you are improving that crafting, thus, the magazine drop chance. If you make it like a book or a stand alone schematic it will be more irregular to get it done.  It could also be scrapable from filters or sometimes even fridge using the wrench. 

IMO doing so handles some problems:

1) You solve the dependency from vendor. 
2) You nerf dew collectors and make them less scalable. 
3) You nerf scavenging murky water without reducing the amount of collectable murky water. 
4) You can balance how effective it by changing how hard is to make a filter and how hard is to boil down murky water. (This is something the idea of purifying pills could fill in). 

But it also has some flaws:
1) Dew collectors are not rain collectors. They indeed produce pure water but in really slow speeds depending on the humidity. The way I had proposed they are kinda working as a mix of rain and dew collector. I think this is the focus of the @AllTheGoodNamesAreInUse. Using a purifier inside the dew collector feels like it is a rain collector. 
2) There are currently no mechanical in place for this.  I though of using a similar thing as fuel to a campfire. But I don't know how hard is to do that in game, how much effort it would take. It so easy as a player to propose this, but not as easy to a dev to make it. 
3) And it also comes with the discussion that. Worrying about food and water is a early game thing only or not? Do players want to be building steel blocks, crafting AP and hi power ammo and still worry about water? 
 

[theFlu]

17 minutes ago, Lamblaska said:

Imagine walking 200m pressing E and R

It would be tedious, pointlessly so, for sure. But if it works, I'd begrudgingly do it - for as long as I wasn't happy with the stored stacks I have. In the current iteration I chill with water collection once I have about 50 waters in my storage box as I don't really plan on using masses of glue, myself. For people who are using plenty for explosives (including myself depending on the playthru) or whatnot .. different story.

 

For the tedium of boiling water, I don't store murky at all, I just process it whenever I show up at a camp fire with any in my inventory. No point in waiting with it, it's all going into the camp fire anyway.

 

 

 

For the overall system, I just have trouble seeing what is a requirement and what is a workaround.. Everything affects everything, but I'd rather try to solve the game play by starting with the basics: lake water is as drinkable as any form of rain or dew. Especially if you allow actually drinking it.

 

What you require to purify it can be made into a resource sink and a gameplay element, coal filters, reverse osmosis devices, distilleries, electrocution-by-lightning, radiation chambers, all fine by me. I don't know the nature of the pollutant, and we don't know if our character knows either. Just ... don't let me drink from a lake and be stumped with the concept of finding H2O to make glue. I even have my own bucket.

 

Make glue production require "beer"? (as beer is used as a replacement for "ethanol" as evidenced by the med kit recipe)

Make duct tape loot only? (slapping horse glue on a piece of cotton string to then tape your AK back together is a bit of a stretch already... )

Push glue recipes further down the tech tree, leave drinks for loot only and disable lakes from the world - the outer border water is seawater, allow for a desalination installation in late game if you so choose.

 

All kinds of things are possible, but it'd require some design. Making drinking water a "get 7k dukes" problem, and glue a "get 7k more dukes" sounds like a lack of design to me, so I can't really help improve upon it. The goals just aren't tangible enough.

[Lamblaska]

21 minutes ago, theFlu said:

For the overall system, I just have trouble seeing what is a requirement and what is a workaround.. Everything affects everything, but I'd rather try to solve the game play by starting with the basics: lake water is as drinkable as any form of rain or dew. Especially if you allow actually drinking it.

I would put it that the requirement for this change is make water consumption and production challenging and container management a bit less complex. If you feel like it demands more effort, it means they went on the right direction with this one. If you feel like the solution is only based on a purchase from the vendor (I think this is the first item they restricted that way) I hear you, it feels... not in sync with the whole game.

The filter mod for helmets and head pieces are a workaround, I suspect. It is a way of reducing the overhead of the water management for consumption. I don't use it, but I don't feel like it is a harm. 
 

[theFlu]

8 minutes ago, Lamblaska said:

The filter mod for helmets and head pieces are a workaround, I suspect.

The helmet mod is more likely just an oversight, should've disabled it from the game IMO. If for nothing else, to see how the base water economy actually runs. I've gotten the mod in all my starts and I haven't gotten past day 22 yet. Usually within the first week.

 

Demands more effort.. I dunno really. A little bit of more pre-planning mostly as cooking now takes ages even with doubling the campfires. I'm used to run around looting/questing one trader up to Tier 5's, so the water changes don't really show at all, the helmet mod negates the small effect it might've had. I just spend my first X dukes on filters; or on this latest run I just took 2 filters as Tier 1 Complete -reward and haven't missed a thing. Just doing the trader loop to get everything, as has been The Way for a couple patches already.

 

The game is slower for the crafting changes, which basically hides any effect the water changes would've had - I have no use for glue, so I have no need for water...

[wclem1974]

I think the main point about water is that it is used to create duct tape which this gane demands a lot of for certain recipes. You need jars of water to create. You do not need bowls or cans to create anything but food, no need to re use them. 

 

Making water hard to get is fine. They need to alter the duct tape recipe then. Take the water out of duct tape. Problem fixed. 

[Old Crow]

5 hours ago, Roland said:

I’m certain of the water survival “gameplay” you desire since anything that is added that creates a challenge or a struggle or tough choices gets labeled by you as anti-player hostility by the developers. To you, a water filter hat that removes any water struggle whatsoever is the best thing ever so someone must by lying if they claim to not use it because they wanted to use dew collectors and have to make choices about their limited supply of clean water whether to use it for drinks, cooking, or crafting— at least for a time. 
 

Also, how does me admitting that I sold the filter mod both times I found it invalidate anyone’s point?  The person I responded to criticized the existence of the mod since it instantly solves the water issue just like filling up glass jars from a lake would. My admission only confirms that point. I was essentially agreeing that the filter mod wrecks TFPs new water gameplay loop—which is why I sold them. 
 

But even beyond that, I was simply sharing my own experience and desire to play the intended design which I felt the filter mod would bypass and I didn’t want to do that. That was just me in two of my playthroughs. It doesn’t invalidate how anyone else likes to play. If you let out a huge whoop when you find one on the first day because that is the water survival gameplay you enjoy that doesn’t invalidate me or my point. 

 

 

 

Except the filter mod doesn't remove any water struggle - you still need to have jars or water for crafting. If you feel the mod wrecks the intended design, maybe suggest to them that they remove said mod?

[Stranded_Napkin]

The reasons I've found for the change:

 

1. This is a video game, logic belongs elsewhere. Turn off brain, follow prompts.

2. Generated tedium. Who doesn't like the grind of doing a lot of work for little reward?

3. The playable character is dumber than the zombies and would drown himself/herself if they tried to fill empty jars.

4. Dew collectors reduce global warming as water vapor is the most abundant greenhouse gas in the atmosphere.

5. Balancing is hard work and an overhaul is just simpler.

[AllTheGoodNamesAreInUse]

On 6/19/2023 at 4:14 AM, RipClaw said:

Well, on the start screen it says "The Survival Horde Crafting Game" and not "The Survival Horde Looting Game".

So crafting should play a more important role than just a little side job.

 

This. So much this.

[Roland]

19 hours ago, Old Crow said:

 

Except the filter mod doesn't remove any water struggle - you still need to have jars or water for crafting. If you feel the mod wrecks the intended design, maybe suggest to them that they remove said mod?

 

It doesn't remove ANY water struggle? Are you sure you didn't mean all?

 

I agree that you still need to gather water for crafting and cooking so there is still a need for it but when none of it has to be used for drinking it significantly reduces the opportunity for tough decisions and eases the struggle quite a bit. I did suggest that they remove the mod but keep the schematic or add it to one of the magazine trees. But, their plan for the game has always been to offer a variety of pathways to players-- even if some are less efficient than others. They are probably okay with someone finding it early like I did. The player can then choose to keep it or sell it depending on how they want to play. So I have no idea whether they would agree with my suggestion or not. They didn't say "Good point, Roland. We'll get that in" And seeing as how I suggested it long before experimental was released it seems like they probably aren't going to go with my suggestion- at least until they see how it goes with everyone.

 

But then, you probably think I'm making up this scenario anyway....

[Old Crow]

26 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

It doesn't remove ANY water struggle? Are you sure you didn't mean all?

 

I agree that you still need to gather water for crafting and cooking so there is still a need for it but when none of it has to be used for drinking it significantly reduces the opportunity for tough decisions and eases the struggle quite a bit. I did suggest that they remove the mod but keep the schematic or add it to one of the magazine trees. But, their plan for the game has always been to offer a variety of pathways to players-- even if some are less efficient than others. They are probably okay with someone finding it early like I did. The player can then choose to keep it or sell it depending on how they want to play. So I have no idea whether they would agree with my suggestion or not. They didn't say "Good point, Roland. We'll get that in" And seeing as how I suggested it long before experimental was released it seems like they probably aren't going to go with my suggestion- at least until they see how it goes with everyone.

 

But then, you probably think I'm making up this scenario anyway....

 

I meant exactly what I said. I replied to you when you had said "To you, a water filter hat that removes any water struggle whatsoever" Are YOU sure you didn't mean all?

[Roland]

3 minutes ago, Old Crow said:

 

I meant exactly what I said. I replied to you when you had said "To you, a water filter hat that removes any water struggle whatsoever" Are YOU sure you didn't mean all?

 

I see the disconnect. I said "any water struggle whatsoever" which is synonymous with "all". The whatsoever qualifies the word any. I probably should have just said all. Sorry.

 

When you responded you left the "whatsoever" off which changed the meaning. So I did mean all when I posted which probably is not fully correct, upon reflection, since I afterward agreed with you that there is still a need to gather water for crafting. But it is a significant reduction in the struggle since all drinking needs are covered and there never is again a need to choose how to prioritize the use your water.

 

So when you said that the dew-collector doesn't remove any water struggle is that what you really believe or do you admit that the filter does undermine the water struggle if a player chooses to use it?

[Old Crow]

6 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

I see the disconnect. I said "any water struggle whatsoever" which is synonymous with "all". The whatsoever qualifies the word any. I probably should have just said all. Sorry.

 

When you responded you left the "whatsoever" off which changed the meaning. So I did mean all when I posted which probably is not fully correct, upon reflection, since I afterward agreed with you that there is still a need to gather water for crafting. But it is a significant reduction in the struggle since all drinking needs are covered and there never is again a need to choose how to prioritize the use your water.

 

So when you said that the dew-collector doesn't remove any water struggle is that what you really believe or do you admit that the filter does undermine the water struggle if a player chooses to use it?

 

I said the filter mod (the one that goes in your headgear) doesn't remove any water struggle. Not the dew collector. The water filter mod in your headgear does help with a drinking water struggle, but not a crafting water struggle.

 

I see the disconnect now as well and apologize for misreading that part.

[Riamus]

I've gotten the helmet water filter mods in A21 and I've never used them.  I don't really see any reason to unless you are in a large party.  I'd rather use other mods like the light mod and I don't want to swap mods back and forth.

[Darklegend222]

On 6/30/2023 at 6:26 AM, minisith said:

It is a survival game.

 

So is: "The Forest".

 

A game where you have to skin your prey, and cook it directly on a fire. It's also a game where you take your cooking pot and dunk it into the water (literally), and then boil it over a fire. Taking pills to drink water isn't a bad solution in all honesty as water purification tablets exist.

 

This game had decent water mechanics as it was, but allowing the user to drink lake water, but not being able to boil it is absolutely stupid. Literally anyone in the real world would boil it first for about 6-8 minutes. Or they would do 10-12 minutes of boiling depending on the location.

 

I'm not against increasing the loot abundance in a sandbox game, I'm against ridiculous changes that ruin a survival aspect. The game doesn't have to be "hyper-realisitc", but this is not the way.

[treachera]

In what world does it make sense that a glass jar vanishes after drinking out of it....  I really wanted to enjoy this update but come on... of all the things to change you change something that made sense into something that doesn't. The rest of the update is great.