I Finally Tried the Drone

[Roland]

You can still get something early if you happen to find a preponderance of that kind of magazine. There won't ever again be a Day 2 Minibikes for Dumb@%$#s schematic but as exciting as something like that is, it kind of ruins that game anyway. 

 

I've joined a team game in progress where my family had already been playing for a week before I could join and as soon as I started I was handed stuff that let me skip the whole beginning primitive stuff and it wasn't as much fun. You will still get stuff early. It may not be the ability to craft an SMG by the second week but it might be an actual SMG that you can use.

 

There are 23 different skill ladders to climb and the game does not manage things to make sure you climb them all at an even rate. That would be a game on rails for sure. You will speed up some and crawl up others and steadily progress in others and that mix will be different each game and you will still be able to randomly find a lucky item early on.

 

I've restarted about five times now since the new system has been in place and every play has felt different and what I could craft vs what I was able to find and use never felt like a bland retreading along the same simple path just like the last restart and the restart before that. 

[RipClaw]

8 hours ago, Roland said:

You can still get something early if you happen to find a preponderance of that kind of magazine. There won't ever again be a Day 2 Minibikes for Dumb@%$#s schematic but as exciting as something like that is, it kind of ruins that game anyway. 

It's not only about finding something early, but also about finding it very late or not at all. This is a challenge when you reach a dead point that you have to overcome.

 

8 hours ago, Roland said:

I've joined a team game in progress where my family had already been playing for a week before I could join and as soon as I started I was handed stuff that let me skip the whole beginning primitive stuff and it wasn't as much fun. You will still get stuff early. It may not be the ability to craft an SMG by the second week but it might be an actual SMG that you can use.

This is more of a multiplayer-specific phenomenon. As a single player, there is no one to hand me the endgame equipment.

 

8 hours ago, Roland said:

There are 23 different skill ladders to climb and the game does not manage things to make sure you climb them all at an even rate. That would be a game on rails for sure. You will speed up some and crawl up others and steadily progress in others and that mix will be different each game and you will still be able to randomly find a lucky item early on.

That is why I wrote "The speed may vary but it always follows the tracks". Whether these different speeds are enough to maintain the replay value remains to be seen.

 

8 hours ago, Roland said:

I've restarted about five times now since the new system has been in place and every play has felt different and what I could craft vs what I was able to find and use never felt like a bland retreading along the same simple path just like the last restart and the restart before that. 

Since I can't try it out myself until the first experimental is released, I can only take your word for it.

 

[Oliwhere]

10 hours ago, Roland said:

There are 23 different skill ladders to climb and the game does not manage things to make sure you climb them all at an even rate. That would be a game on rails for sure. You will speed up some and crawl up others and steadily progress in others and that mix will be different each game and you will still be able to randomly find a lucky item early on.

 

I've restarted about five times now since the new system has been in place and every play has felt different and what I could craft vs what I was able to find and use never felt like a bland retreading along the same simple path just like the last restart and the restart before that. 

 

I've recently wondered how the different loot bonuses in the 4 diffent biomes play into this new crafting progression.

If the goal is to keep the crafting progression always slightly ahead of the quality of items that you loot, will this be only true for the forrest biome or will this apply to looting in the snow or wasteland as well?

 

If this applies to all biomes, does that mean that you find magazines more often  and in larger stack sizes in the more difficult biomes?

[Roland]

7 hours ago, RipClaw said:

It's not only about finding something early, but also about finding it very late or not at all. This is a challenge when you reach a dead point that you have to overcome.

I think you’ll find that feeling remains intact. It is still random and there is no guarantee of finding enough magazines in an unperked category to be able to craft those items in its tree. I suspect there will be frustrated people complaining about having to go without just like there is now. 
 

7 hours ago, RipClaw said:

This is more of a multiplayer-specific phenomenon. As a single player, there is no one to hand me the endgame equipment.

I know. The point is that RNG handing you a blue auger on day two is much like your brother saying “There’s a blue auger in the tool chest” on your second day of joining.

 

5 hours ago, Oliwhere said:

 

I've recently wondered how the different loot bonuses in the 4 diffent biomes play into this new crafting progression.

If the goal is to keep the crafting progression always slightly ahead of the quality of items that you loot, will this be only true for the forrest biome or will this apply to looting in the snow or wasteland as well?

 

If this applies to all biomes, does that mean that you find magazines more often  and in larger stack sizes in the more difficult biomes?

There is no goal to ensure that you can craft items at a better quality than you can find them or buy them. It just so happens that for some things— particularly what you perk into, you often can craft at a better level than you can loot in A21 than happens now. 
 

But if you play in a way that jacks up your Lootstage such as going to the wasteland straight off then you probably will find more stuff at a higher tier than you can currently craft. There is no mechanism in place to increase magazines to keep your crafting abilities always ahead of your looting stage.

[Rotor]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

I think you’ll find that feeling remains intact. It is still random and there is no guarantee of finding enough magazines in an unperked category to be able to craft those items in its tree. I suspect there will be frustrated people complaining about having to go without just like there is now. 
 

I know. The point is that RNG handing you a blue auger on day two is much like your brother saying “There’s a blue auger in the tool chest” on your second day of joining.

 

 

 

Not quite, one is random the other is not.  

 

[Oliwhere]

4 hours ago, Roland said:

There is no goal to ensure that you can craft items at a better quality than you can find them or buy them. It just so happens that for some things— particularly what you perk into, you often can craft at a better level than you can loot in A21 than happens now. 
 

But if you play in a way that jacks up your Lootstage such as going to the wasteland straight off then you probably will find more stuff at a higher tier than you can currently craft. There is no mechanism in place to increase magazines to keep your crafting abilities always ahead of your looting stage.

 

I think the question that I'm trying to ask is: In which biome does crafting your own gear become obsolete, because the item quality you loot - even while focusing on magazines - does surpass the quality that you can craft?

 

I would be okay, if living in the wasteland also means it' s also a no-crafting playthrough , but if I decided to live in the winter or dessert biome for a playthrough, it would be disappointing if this also automatically means that crafting your own gear isn't worthwhile.

 

So I think that getting the balance between the quality of found loot and the players crafting potential right seems important with the new system. Ideally this would then allow crafting to be a meaningful part of the gameplay for more than just the easiest biome and the beginning of the game.

 

Maybe playtesting a dessert/winter biome only world could give some insights where the break-even point of looting and crafting actually occurrs?

Gonna give it a try, as soon as I get the chance to do so 😀

 

 

 

[Oliwhere]

On 6/24/2022 at 5:21 PM, Rotor said:

 

 

 

BTW, quick question, is each items probability rolled every time or in the Genesis the RnGeezus saz "Thou shalt not find wheels this palythrough"?

 

The quick answer would be : Probably both 😉

 

The more detailed one:

When the game tries to fill a loot container with items it is done the moment you open it. It calls the RNG several times for a random number and depending on the range this number falls in, a certain item from the loot list is chosen. Typically the RNG generates random number between 0 and 1 and the range for items is calculated from the container loot list. So for example if the range for wheels in a Pass'N'Gas crate is 0.47 - 0.5 and you roll a 0.4833 - you get a wheel in that crate.

 

Regarding your destiny in the book of Genesis:

The 7DTD RNG seems to be using an initial seed that is based on the world seed - that means all numbers that the generator will generate can be calculated / predicted.

So indeed your fate is already fixed at world creation - but the good thing is that you don't know yet what will happen. Also as a player you also have the freedom to perform random actions (do I loot this container first or the other one?) and so change your fate. 😉

[Roland]

5 hours ago, Rotor said:

Not quite, one is random the other is not.  

 

I think you are being intentionally dense but regardless, I was never saying that the manner in which you get the auger is the same. I would hope you'd give me enough  credit to not think that I was mistaking what you claimed I was mistaking. It should have been obvious that I was talking about the end result which is the same. However you get an early OP tool or weapon, once you have it in your posession that early in the game, it spoils the progression.

 

Got it? The comparison was for once you are in possession of that tool. With an auger in hand (whether you got it from random loot, cheated it in by the creative menu, was gifted it by a pal, had enough money to purchase it at the trader) there will now be a whole bunch of finds in the future that will be meh because what you got at the beginning is better than anything else.

 

Sure it is exciting to find something powerful. I get that. It is exciting to find it once and then the next 20 containers that have lesser versions of what that thing does are all disappointing.

 

But if you keep finding stuff that is a bit better than what you have then it is still exciting and you get to experience that excitement over and over and over again until you finally reach the top.

 

But to answer your statement head on: I 100% agree. Being gifted a tool is not random but finding one in a container is random. Glad to see eye to eye with you on that.

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Oliwhere said:

So I think that getting the balance between the quality of found loot and the players crafting potential right seems important with the new system. Ideally this would then allow crafting to be a meaningful part of the gameplay for more than just the easiest biome and the beginning of the game.

 

Maybe playtesting a dessert/winter biome only world could give some insights where the break-even point of looting and crafting actually occurrs?

Gonna give it a try, as soon as I get the chance to do so 😀

 

The balance is going to be based on the standard progression where you start in the forest and eventually progress to living in one of the harder biomes. The game doesn't block you from going straight to desert, snow, or wasteland but doing so is going to alter your play experience and one of those alterations is going to probably be finding better things than you can craft more often.

 

I know of no plan to try and code a dynamic manager that will readjust magazine drop rate in loot to keep your crafting ahead of the looting curve no matter what you do. The testing you want to do sounds intriguing, though, and I hope you have fun doing it.

[Rotor]

32 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

I think you are being intentionally dense but regardless, I was never saying that the manner in which you get the auger is the same. I would hope you'd give me enough  credit to not think that I was mistaking what you claimed I was mistaking. It should have been obvious that I was talking about the end result which is the same. However you get an early OP tool or weapon, once you have it in your posession that early in the game, it spoils the progression.

 

I was being simple not dense and unASSuming.   I was only pointing it out because on the one end you said one thing, and then you made the statement.  It didnt 2+2=4.    Anyways thanks for the explanation. 

 

32 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

Got it? The comparison was for once you are in possession of that tool. With an auger in hand (whether you got it from random loot, cheated it in by the creative menu, was gifted it by a pal, had enough money to purchase it at the trader) there will now be a whole bunch of finds in the future that will be meh because what you got at the beginning is better than anything else.

 

Sure it is exciting to find something powerful. I get that. It is exciting to find it once and then the next 20 containers that have lesser versions of what that thing does are all disappointing.

 

But if you keep finding stuff that is a bit better than what you have then it is still exciting and you get to experience that excitement over and over and over again until you finally reach the top.

 

But to answer your statement head on: I 100% agree. Being gifted a tool is not random but finding one in a container is random. Glad to see eye to eye with you on that.

 

[theFlu]

On 6/25/2022 at 11:59 AM, RipClaw said:

It's not only about finding something early, but also about finding it very late or not at all. This is a challenge when you reach a dead point that you have to overcome.

Indeed; If a thing is locked behind "25 copies" of a book instead of an "equally random" rare one, the 25 copies version is not really going to cause any variance to mention.

 

Can't complain yet as I haven't seen anything, but I am a little worried. It sounds an awful lot like a nomad start, from bookshelf to bookshelf, until transportation has been achieved. Or steel. Or some other threshold. And balancing for multiplayer vs solo, as people will specialize while multi, people carrying books to one another.. hmm. Finding a balance there is not one of the tasks I'm jealous of ..

 

Yes, I'm one of those filthy min-maxers by nature, but so is any game... in my eyes

[RipClaw]

16 minutes ago, theFlu said:

Indeed; If a thing is locked behind "25 copies" of a book instead of an "equally random" rare one, the 25 copies version is not really going to cause any variance to mention.

 

Can't complain yet as I haven't seen anything, but I am a little worried. It sounds an awful lot like a nomad start, from bookshelf to bookshelf, until transportation has been achieved. Or steel. Or some other threshold. And balancing for multiplayer vs solo, as people will specialize while multi, people carrying books to one another.. hmm. Finding a balance there is not one of the tasks I'm jealous of ..

 

Yes, I'm one of those filthy min-maxers by nature, but so is any game... in my eyes

From what I have read, the magazines are not only found on bookshelves. Basically everywhere you can find a schematic now, you can also find the magazines. That also includes broken workstations and crates like Pass-N-Gas crates or Working Stiff crates. And they seem also be part of the quest rewards. So quest spamming will probably increase significantly in A21.

[theFlu]

4 hours ago, RipClaw said:

So quest spamming will probably increase significantly in A21.

Well, no changes then, I suppose ...

[meganoth]

6 hours ago, RipClaw said:

From what I have read, the magazines are not only found on bookshelves. Basically everywhere you can find a schematic now, you can also find the magazines. That also includes broken workstations and crates like Pass-N-Gas crates or Working Stiff crates. And they seem also be part of the quest rewards. So quest spamming will probably increase significantly in A21.

 

For most players in A20 crafting is relatively unimportant. You make your starting weapons and a pipe machine gun and padded armor. Then at least 3/4th of your better weapons or armor or tools already comes from quests and loot. Why should crafting suddenly be the most sought after thing for normal players in 7D2D?

 

 

[RipClaw]

6 hours ago, meganoth said:

For most players in A20 crafting is relatively unimportant. You make your starting weapons and a pipe machine gun and padded armor. Then at least 3/4th of your better weapons or armor or tools already comes from quests and loot. Why should crafting suddenly be the most sought after thing for normal players in 7D2D?

Yes, it is a sad truth that many players no longer craft anything but play the game as a kind of lootshooter.

Personally, I have crafted most of my equipment. For me crafting is an important part of the game and I had hoped that the changes in A21 would strengthen crafting.

 

If the Fun Pimps rebalance the trader and the quests they could, for example, replace the weapons and tools with parts and magazines. Then the players would have to either make or find their equipment. They would no longer get it from the quests.
 

[Roland]

You know how when you are on your way somewhere and you see a deer off the side of the road and you stop and postpone what you had in mind in order to get that deer because who just lets a deer go?

 

Quest spamming will get you truly random samples of magazines as a reward. It is a bundle so you can't even see what magazines you will get until after you choose the reward and open the bundle. So, the interesting thing is that you will be on your way to a quest and see a POI that is related to what you are specifically trying to progress in and much like that deer you will feel compelled to postpone that quest and clean out that POI since it is a better source of what you want than the quest location is bound to be. Then you see another one...

 

I find that I am scavenging non-quest destination POIs more than I ever have before since quests were introduced. That being said, I am not one who spams quests anyway. But even if someone does spam quests and always chooses magazine bundles as their reward this just means they will be even more likely to be able to craft better than what they've found.

 

In my current playthrough I am focusing on archery. I crafted a brown bow and then found an orange bow. Then I ended up crafting my own yellow and green and then blue bow. I have found bow parts and primitive bows that were lower than what I could craft. I haven't found a single pipe machine gun but can craft a yellow one although I haven't gotten to doing it yet but will before my next hordenight.

 

 

[Laz Man]

14 hours ago, RipClaw said:

From what I have read, the magazines are not only found on bookshelves. Basically everywhere you can find a schematic now, you can also find the magazines. That also includes broken workstations and crates like Pass-N-Gas crates or Working Stiff crates. And they seem also be part of the quest rewards. So quest spamming will probably increase significantly in A21.

 

It depends on your goals/desires each playthrough.  If you are close to unlocking something you would really like to craft, you may forgoe doing another quest and instead go raiding a POI that has a higher chance of dropping the magazine your after.

1 hour ago, RipClaw said:

Yes, it is a sad truth that many players no longer craft anything but play the game as a kind of lootshooter.

Personally, I have crafted most of my equipment. For me crafting is an important part of the game and I had hoped that the changes in A21 would strengthen crafting.

 

If the Fun Pimps rebalance the trader and the quests they could, for example, replace the weapons and tools with parts and magazines. Then the players would have to either make or find their equipment. They would no longer get it from the quests.
 

Crafting is improved imo.  At the very least I'm not selling all of my unperked parts anymore and holding onto some in hopes to craft something better then I'm rocking.

[BFT2020]

It is easy to make crafting more important if you want to mod the game a bit.

 

• Reduce probability drops of equipment better than Q2 to 0.05
• Remove all Q5 and lower equipment from traders and price gouge the Q6 items
• Remove quest rewards (just leave the dukes)
• Remove the ability to repair any of the equipment (but keep vehicles and traps as repairable)
• Add the ability to craft Q6 items

I am still making changes and playtesting mine, but it has significantly changed how I play the game.  Now crafting a Q4 iron pickaxe is a priority unless I want to use that half damaged Q2 one instead I found in loot.  I am even found myself using non-spec melee weapons because it was all I had at the time.

 

You still find loot, but crafting becomes much more important.  That Q6 iron shovel you find in loot is great until it breaks, then you have to replace it with that Q4 you can only craft.

[Kam R.]

I like that the drone calls me "master". She is like a female K-9. That can fly. And doesn't look like a dog.

 

Just make it a robo-dog, pls&thx. :]

[RipClaw]

10 minutes ago, Kam R. said:

Just make it a robo-dog, pls&thx. :]

You mean like this ?

 

 

[Kam R.]

3 hours ago, RipClaw said:

You mean like this ?

 

 

yup

[spud42]

 

the drone is more like this. Lydia in a doorway constantly getting in your way... lol