Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[Laz Man]

1 hour ago, mstdv inc said:

I think Pro is a paid subscription..Will you give him a 30-day trial? Trialand before Proland?

 

As long as there are no micro transactions.... 😁

[Neminsis]

5 hours ago, meganoth said:

Loot level dependant probabilites work the same, but the raw percentage value they have changes with the loot level. So they might have a very low probability with a low-level player and gain probability with time. In consequence other items in the same list lose some probability.

So, when I'm looking at something like this...

-<lootgroup name="groupJunk01" count="1">

<item loot_prob_template="medLow" group="groupFoodTrash"/>

<item loot_prob_template="med" group="groupScrapCommon"/>

<item loot_prob_template="med" group="groupBuildingCommon"/> 

<item loot_prob_template="med" group="groupCraftingCommon"/>

and this...
 

lootgroup name="groupCraftingCommon" count="1">

<item name="resourceCloth" count="1,5"/>

<item name="resourceMetalPipe" count="1,5"/>

<item name="resourceGlue" count="1,2"/>

<item name="resourceScrapPolymers" count="1,10"/>

<item name="resourceNail" count="1,5"/>

it's going to be .35+.5+.5+.5=1.85 = .18+27+27+27 = 100 So it's a 27% chance of pulling from groupcraftingcommon and then a 20% chance of getting glue so a 5% overall before it's repeated for each of the empty cells in the container. 

I'm not exactly sure atm but don't the junk piles have 4 fillable cells?

So, 5% X 4 = 20% for the whole container? 

 

[Lasher]

16 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

He used sarcasm. There is no forum rule against that and you can use that as well. Your reply also had direct insults/ad hominems (genius, raging fanboi) so I actually was thinking about stepping in as moderator. 

 

 By the way, I edited my reply to you shortly before I read this new post, and I did give you credit for the second part of your complaint.

 

As a normal forum user I can side with anyone I want and give my opinion about anything. If I ever act in my capacity as a moderator you will notice the difference. 😉

 

Thanks for your reply - I'll do my best to not argue with freinds of yours on a day that you feel like a moderator.

(Love the veiled threat BTW)

Just to clarify though - seeing as there's no forum rules on sarcasm...

I'll admit that you've got me on the "raging fanboi"...

But "Genius"?

As in I said genius but I meant the opposite...

As in "Sarcasm"....?

[meganoth]

6 hours ago, Neminsis said:

So, when I'm looking at something like this...

-<lootgroup name="groupJunk01" count="1">

<item loot_prob_template="medLow" group="groupFoodTrash"/>

<item loot_prob_template="med" group="groupScrapCommon"/>

<item loot_prob_template="med" group="groupBuildingCommon"/> 

<item loot_prob_template="med" group="groupCraftingCommon"/>

and this...
 

lootgroup name="groupCraftingCommon" count="1">

<item name="resourceCloth" count="1,5"/>

<item name="resourceMetalPipe" count="1,5"/>

<item name="resourceGlue" count="1,2"/>

<item name="resourceScrapPolymers" count="1,10"/>

<item name="resourceNail" count="1,5"/>

it's going to be .35+.5+.5+.5=1.85 = .18+27+27+27 = 100 So it's a 27% chance of pulling from groupcraftingcommon and then a 20% chance of getting glue so a 5% overall before it's repeated for each of the empty cells in the container. 

I'm not exactly sure atm but don't the junk piles have 4 fillable cells?

So, 5% X 4 = 20% for the whole container? 

 

 

No. If a container uses groupJunk01 then he will always have only one stack of items in it. There is no repeat unless explicitely specified in the XML with for example a "count=4" or "count=all". But I would guess many loot container don't use groupJunk01 but instead groupJunk which in turn calls groupJunk01 02 and 03.

 

Notice the count="all" which means it should pick one item out of 01 and with a lesser probability items out of 02 and 03. At least that is how I assume "force_prob=true" works, i.e. it picks groupJunk02 only with a probability of exactly "low" aka 20% instead of the 100% one would expect from the "count=all".

 

 

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, Lasher said:

Thanks for your reply - I'll do my best to not argue with freinds of yours on a day that you feel like a moderator.

 

That is great. I'm friends with everyone here 😉

 

1 hour ago, Lasher said:

(Love the veiled threat BTW)

Just to clarify though - seeing as there's no forum rules on sarcasm...

I'll admit that you've got me on the "raging fanboi"...

But "Genius"?

As in I said genius but I meant the opposite...

As in "Sarcasm"....?

 

"Genius" is irony (fine) and a weak insult. The irony is not the problem. I think you'd agree that insults can be summed up in assessing a post, right? The sum of both insults you used still was below MY threshold to act (can't speak for other moderators).

 

Note that sarcasm can be used to attack the opinion of a poster or a poster himself. The former is no problem, the latter is again problematic since it is an insult cloaked by sarcasm.

 

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

On 8/1/2022 at 6:45 PM, Roland said:

That being said, obviously some will enjoy the the change and some won’t, wishing the devs would have left alone stuff “nobody asked for”. I think most will like the changes but it will be interesting to see. 

This is basically the equivalent of rearranging everything in a store. I don't think any customer ever asked for the store to be remodeled. But in the end, everyone gets used to it and in a few years the store is remodeled again. 😁

 

[Lasher]

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

That is great. I'm friends with everyone here 😉

 

 

"Genius" is irony (fine) and a weak insult. The irony is not the problem. I think you'd agree that insults can be summed up in assessing a post, right? The sum of both insults you used still was below MY threshold to act (can't speak for other moderators).

 

Note that sarcasm can be used to attack the opinion of a poster or a poster himself. The former is no problem, the latter is again problematic since it is an insult cloaked by sarcasm.

 

 

Fair comment.

Just to be clear though as far as I'm aware sarcasm is a directed form of irony which is used as a method of criticism or mockery.

The only reason I mentioned it is that you explained that there are no forum rules against sarcasm.

outhous took a sarcastic tone with me - so I assume it's fine for me to reply in kind.

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, Lasher said:

Fair comment.

Just to be clear though as far as I'm aware sarcasm is a directed form of irony which is used as a method of criticism or mockery.

 

Lots of definitions to choose from, wikipedia for example says that sarcasm can be without irony, another definition says sarcasm is just "irony to mock" . I would side with wikipedia here since I can easily construct sarcastic comments without irony.

 

1 hour ago, Lasher said:

The only reason I mentioned it is that you explained that there are no forum rules against sarcasm.

outhous took a sarcastic tone with me - so I assume it's fine for me to reply in kind.

 

I read it again, and Outhous was clearly mocking your statements and even when he referenced you directly in the second parapgraph and implied that you must be clearvoyant to know this, it was attacking your statement, not attacking you. 

 

And it would be perfectly fine to reply likewise.

 

Just one caveat: Not sure if it is possible but if someone overdoes the sarcasm he might not be fined for flaming but instead for trolling (see the official forum rules for definitions if you are interested). This is a tier5 forum with lots of trap doors 😁

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Neminsis]

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

Notice the count="all" which means it should pick one item out of 01 and with a lesser probability items out of 02 and 03.

Okay, I found the part that you're talking about at <lootgroup name="groupJunk" count="all"> So we stop calculating after 1 cell giving us a probability of glue at 5% but if we're going to work out an average number of glues for a set of containers, we have to then figure stack size into it as well. Not sure where stack size is even represented here or how it's calculated, because from experience I know there is a great deal of variation in the end result.  I suspect that since the end result of how many you actually receive is higher than the numbers I would guess to be the limit that something hokey is going on here.


 

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, Neminsis said:

Okay, I found the part that you're talking about at <lootgroup name="groupJunk" count="all"> So we stop calculating after 1 cell giving us a probability of glue at 5% but if we're going to work out an average number of glues for a set of containers, we have to then figure stack size into it as well. Not sure where stack size is even represented here or how it's calculated, because from experience I know there is a great deal of variation in the end result.  I suspect that since the end result of how many you actually receive is higher than the numbers I would guess to be the limit that something hokey is going on here.


 

 

Stack size of an item is done with "count=1,2" , directly in the items line.

 

"<item name="resourceMetalPipe" count="1,5"/>" would give you a stack of 1 up to 5 metal pipes

Edited August 3, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

1 hour ago, Neminsis said:

Okay, I found the part that you're talking about at <lootgroup name="groupJunk" count="all"> So we stop calculating after 1 cell giving us a probability of glue at 5% but if we're going to work out an average number of glues for a set of containers, we have to then figure stack size into it as well. Not sure where stack size is even represented here or how it's calculated, because from experience I know there is a great deal of variation in the end result.  I suspect that since the end result of how many you actually receive is higher than the numbers I would guess to be the limit that something hokey is going on here.

 

The number of items you receive is based on the count in that subgroup, randomized equally based on the range.

 

In your example for glue, it is stated as     

 

<item name="resourceGlue" count ="1,2"/>

 

So you have a 50/50 chance of getting 1 or 2.

 

As another example, cloth in the same group

 

    <item name="resourceCloth" count ="1,5"/>

 

You should have a 20% chance of getting 1,2,3,4 or 5 pieces of cloth if that item was picked

 

But wait, there is more 😆

<!-- cars-->
<lootcontainer id="19" name="cars" count="1,2" size="7,4" sound_open="UseActions/open_vehicle" sound_close="UseActions/close_vehicle" open_time="4" loot_quality_template="qualBaseTemplate">
    <item group="groupCars"/>
</lootcontainer>

 

As you can see, the cars container has a count of "1,2" which means you did have a 50% chance of going through the groupCars twice.  That means, if you are lucky, you could get potentially 2 picks of glue meaning your potential glue haul could be 2-4.

 

There is a mod out there that will generate the percentage chances of loot drops as you play the game

 

https://www.nexusmods.com/7daystodie/mods/2067

 

This is from a gamer that goes by @Boidster  Boidster seems legit....but it seem like the mod was being pushed pretty hard at the beginning so you might want to  be weary of them.  Seems awfully helpful which always indicates something is up  😉

[Neminsis]

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

<item name="resourceMetalPipe" count="1,5"/>" would give you a stack of 1 up to 5 metal pipes

That what I thought it was, but I still have a couple problems. 

It's easy enough now to take that 50% chance of double loot and integrate it into our original drop chance for a single container to find the average for glue over a series of the same containers of 7.25%, but I don't see the mechanism that increases drop size with loot stage, and we know that it does, and I don't see how it could sometime give more than 2 glue, and I may be remembering from a previous alpha, but I know that I have gotten 4 glue in a drop previously, and from what I see here that shouldn't be possible.
 

2 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

As you can see, the cars container has a count of "1,2" which means you did have a 50% chance of going through the groupCars twice.  That means, if you are lucky, you could get potentially 2 picks of glue meaning your potential glue haul could be 2-4.

That's also what I thought, and it would explain my experience not matching up with the numbers I was seeing here. 

I don't really use mods. I mean, I'll take them for a test run but I inevitably revert to vanilla asap. I know, that's practically blasphemy, but I have very few bugs in vanilla and I'm running on a very low end pc.



 

[BFT2020]

8 minutes ago, Neminsis said:

but I don't see the mechanism that increases drop size with loot stage

 

Most of the loot is independent of loot stage.  The majority of the probability calculations are based on the standard tables

 

    <lootprobtemplate name="veryLow">
    <lootprobtemplate name="low">
    <lootprobtemplate name="medLow">
    <lootprobtemplate name="med">
    <lootprobtemplate name="medHigh">
    <lootprobtemplate name="high">
    <lootprobtemplate name="guaranteed">

 

These will apply to most.  The loot stage probabilities are applied only to equipment that have tiers, like weapons, schematics, armor, tools.

 

You still use the basic ones to see if that item drops, then the loot stage tables take over to determine what tier level you are getting and what quality level you are getting based on your loot stage.

 

The ProbT# tables will determine what tier of the equipment you are getting, while QLTemplateT# will determine the quality level of the item given
 

[Neminsis]

50 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

Most of the loot is independent of loot stage.  The majority of the probability calculations are based on the standard tables

I got all that. I'm not really explaining myself very well here, but I found the part I was looking for under ammo groups where they've got different count ranges for subset items based on loot tier.  Sorry for being obtuse, I just couldn't think of an example at the time, I just vaguely remembered the technique being used somewhere after the one time I lazily skimmed the entirety of this XML since a20 dropped.   

And now that I've fumbled around long enough, I've got a good idea how one would go about tying loot quantity to loot stage. 

I appreciate the effort and the patience. 😊

[BFT2020]

24 minutes ago, Neminsis said:

I appreciate the effort and the patience. 😊

 

No worries, I got a crash course in loot tables working on my mod.  Most of the information gained was when I made a mistake or two (and helpful advice from other modders)  😮

[Melange]

11 hours ago, FranticDan said:

Small request. Could the 'dropped loot' bag for arrows and bolts be a different colour than brown, so when zombies despawn we can tell they are our ammo.
And, could the despawn timer for the dropped loot bags be longer than 60 secs, 180 would be nice so there's less panic when trying to quickly organise inventory before they despawn (I mean the sack and not the loot container bag)

After eliminating the zombies with archery, we have their loot drop bags (big and in potentially three different colors), and then the little brown bags that each contain either one arrow or one crossbow bolt, unless you are also pelting the zeds with canned foods or whatever. Chances are not much else is going to be in one of those brown bags ( aka generic place holders). The ability to reclaim a bolt/arrow is intended as a bonus feature: Ranger's Guide to Archery Vol 1 gives you the ability to retrieve 20% more arrows (if you act on them soon enough). Suppose one could concentrate on retrieving the brown bags first (or if they were any other color), then loot the zed's drops afterward since loot drops exist for a much longer time.  Loot first, organise inventory afterward.  And sometimes the arrows are just stuck into whatever block they've been shot into and we can retrieve them. 

 

Now, after all of that diatribe I fail to see what's at issue. Small bag color? It'll contain an arrow or a bolt regardless for pete's sake. Small brown bag despawns too quickly? Write it off. Craft more arrows. 🏹 

 

 

[NekoPawtato]

20 minutes ago, Melange said:

Small brown bag despawns too quickly? Write it off. Craft more arrows. 🏹

May not necessarily be arrows though. You could be wrenching a car with full inventory and all of a sudden an engine or car battery pops out as a brown bag 😀

Though I wonder if longer despawn time would have an impact on performance, think drop mining for example

[Melange]

13 minutes ago, NekoPawtato said:

May not necessarily be arrows though. You could be wrenching a car with full inventory and all of a sudden an engine or car battery pops out as a brown bag 😀

Though I wonder if longer despawn time would have an impact on performance, think drop mining for example

Sure, an engine or battery graphic instead of the generic brown bag would be great. But I would still have to perform a quick 'keep or discard' on my inventory either way. Guess it would save me from having to inspect the little bag to see what it is that I don't have room for. 

 

I would wager a guess that since the since the bag already exits, allowing it to exist a bit longer would not noticeably affect performance. The devs extended the life span of zombie loot bags already. Earlier Alpha's had them disappear before our eyes. 

 

Not sure what you mean about drop mining though.

Edited August 4, 2022 by Melange (see edit history)

[NekoPawtato]

8 minutes ago, Melange said:

Sure, an engine or battery graphic instead of the generic brown bag would be great. But I would still have to perform a 'keep or discard' on my inventory either way. Guess it would save me from having to inspect the little bag to see what it is that I don't have room for. 

Sorry to clarify, I was mainly referring to the request about increasing the despawn timer of the bags. Meaning more time to play the "keep or discard" game without fear of losing said engine or battery, not about the appearance of the bag.

You had mentioned that it wasn't a big deal if the bags despawn (in the context of arrows) because they can always make more, so I was just saying it may not always be bags of arrows 😋

Edited August 4, 2022 by NekoPawtato (see edit history)

[Melange]

4 minutes ago, NekoPawtato said:

Sorry to clarify, I was mainly referring to the request about increasing the despawn timer of the bags. Meaning more time to play the "keep or discard" game without fear of losing said engine or battery, not about the appearance of the bag.

You had mentioned that it wasn't a big deal if the bags despawn (in the context of arrows) because they can always make more, so I was just saying it may not always be bags of arrows 😋

Its all good. I am so used to the "keep or discard" scenario that it has become second nature in my game play.  Have fun. I'm gonna go make some more arrows - the steel ones. And throw out those feathers that I am not needing anymore 😄

[NekoPawtato]

39 minutes ago, Melange said:

Not sure what you mean about drop mining though.

Sorry I just saw the edit -- drop mining as in when the player purposefully allows the ground above them to collapse (by not putting supports down) while mining, very easy to collapse in say the desert, it usually results in many many many brown bags of sand. So 180 seconds would mean more time they are around and if the person just keeps drop mining and creating more bags at some point (right before the first bags despawn) you may end up with a sea of bags 😅

Edited August 4, 2022 by NekoPawtato (see edit history)

[FranticDan]

1 hour ago, Melange said:

 

Now, after all of that diatribe I fail to see what's at issue. Small bag color? It'll contain an arrow or a bolt regardless for pete's sake. Small brown bag despawns too quickly? Write it off. Craft more arrows. 🏹 

 

The despawn timer will apply to EVERYTHING, not just arrows/bolts. Everything despawns very quickly (60 seconds) and if your inventory is full (after harvesting an animal for example, or harvesting a car) you gotta act quick. And I've seen people not even notice the dropped items and then the bag is gone in a few seconds after they do notice.

As for the colour, its not as important when compared to a longer despawn timer, but the amount of times I've seen a bag wondering what it is, because I've forgotten about it

[Melange]

10 minutes ago, NekoPawtato said:

you may end up with a sea of bags 😅

I understand now. Usually happens when I don't want it to though. Will have to try a controlled collapse once I find the desert in this RWG.  Lag awaits I'm sure 😈

[Melange]

13 minutes ago, FranticDan said:

The despawn timer will apply to EVERYTHING, not just arrows/bolts. Everything despawns very quickly (60 seconds) and if your inventory is full (after harvesting an animal for example, or harvesting a car) you gotta act quick. And I've seen people not even notice the dropped items and then the bag is gone in a few seconds after they do notice.

As for the colour, its not as important when compared to a longer despawn timer, but the amount of times I've seen a bag wondering what it is, because I've forgotten about it

Fair enough. The bag color was mentioned first, and the despawn time of the arrow bags I interpreted as a potential after thought. You'd like an increase in brown bag despawn time, that's okay with me. Different color? Why not. Would make my game easier I suppose. Despawn time is your main complaint, not bag color. I get it now. Though that's not quite how the post was initially worded. And I'll leave it at that. Hell, we're not arguing over jars or dew collectors and such. 

 

 

[Neminsis]

5 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

No worries, I got a crash course in loot tables working on my mod.  Most of the information gained was when I made a mistake or two (and helpful advice from other modders)

I never really had an interest in modding or looking at the xmls at all. It's always been functional enough for me to develop a general rule through observation of the end product.  It wouldn't really be worth it, for example, to go through every potential loot container to figure out an average drop rate across them and then adjust for the frequency that those containers will spawn within the range of the player, then adjust again for changes in player level. Even on the developer side it makes more sense to collect telemetry and then run the end results through a spreadsheet before tweaking the values as needed. It's just a lot easier to assume at this point that the levels of any given item are 'adequate'. 

The only reason I ever even skimmed the xml was to try and figure out why the particular loot boxes we used in a video seemed to dry up when loot stage got too high, and that's about as far as I got into solving that particular mystery. Since my guy didn't want to do a follow up video, I let it drop.  

If I do however develop an interest, I will be blaming both of you and cursing your names along the way. 😂